That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

[Bumbler19]

oh, so this is a completely different forum all together? i figured it was run by the same people, but maybe i was just assuming so.

[Matt]

Nope, totally different.

Many of us were members of the old forum but my partners and I decided starting out on our own would be interesting.

And it really is. :clap:

[Bumbler19]

well Thankee-sai, since TDT.net seems to be gone. I'm very glad this popped up!!!! :thumbsup:

[Matt]

And it's great to have you here. :thumbsup:

I've forgotten what the topic was. :lol:

[Chap]

Ok, so in "the real world" of 99... time always moves forward correct? never backward.

also, true for the world of 19 "Roland's World" this is stated right up to almost the end of the book.


Just curious, do the characters or narrator ever refer to the worlds by "name" (world 19 and world 99)?
also, I've seen someone here say that this was Rolands 19th "loop", are there any source in the books themselves that state this, or is it just something made up by the fans?

Sorry for going off topic, curiosity got me :borg:

[K.J.J.]

Think about it, this is what I assumed, he was able to reset in the world of 19 because the Tower permitted it. And if the Tower is the nexus of Space-Time and pretty much decides what happens across the Universe, then if it wanted to, it can break the rules whenever it pleases.

[Chap]

Sorry if this has been discussed before.

Roland often "knows" things by intuition, he knows where to go, what to do, who to talk to etc etc. very often. (I don't remember any examples though) and I believe it was called intuition, or whatever.
But does anyone besides me think that maybe, just maybe, his intuition can in fact be memories from past "loops"? Memories he doesn't even recognize as such, because he's supposed to have forgotten? Kind of like how Jakes memories of his old life fades away.
In the previous loops, maybe he didn't get as far as he did this time (maybe further and further each time), and that his intuition is memories of what he has done (or failed to do) in a past loop, so he must do it differently now?

Your thoughts? :orely:

[BROWNINGS CHILDE]

Thats a good thought. I also remember several instances when Roland was in a trancelike state or under the spell of something. i.e merlins grapefruit, oracle, todash etc. Whereas I dont remember the details specifically, I always thought that maybe he picked up some of his "intuition" subconsciously during these times.

[jayson]

I've seen someone here say that this was Rolands 19th "loop", are there any source in the books themselves that state this, or is it just something made up by the fans?

Complete speculation. An interesting theory for sure but I have some major issues with the way I've heard it stated.

[Bumbler19]

Just curious, do the characters or narrator ever refer to the worlds by "name" (world 19 and world 99)?

The characters do refer to the worlds by name they say, something close to "this world, the world of 19.... and the real world, the keystone world, the world of 99"

something close to that, not exact quote but close to it.

-------

in other threads, i've read that the world that Roland ends up in is another level of the tower, which ties into (B, another version of Roland's world). Now considering this, i've had the idea that the entire series isn't just a trek TO the tower, but a trek UP the tower, each time he restarts he climbs one level of the tower.

that also suggests that not only "worlds 19 and 99" need saving, but it is every world that needs saving.

Gan is having Roland climb every level, to every world and save the beams one by one, or two, considering he saved both 19 and 99 in this loop around.

Maybe each WORLD IS a "BEAM" to hold something much more important. Maybe the plane on which all the worlds sit, or "the loaf of bread" if anyone is familiar with String Theory.

[Bumbler19]

It is an interesting thought, but as it was explained in the book it was -mostly- the teachings of a gunslinger he learned in Gilead. OR his ability to feel what Ka needs him to do, he talks to certain people because the flow of Ka pushes him to do so. He takes certain routes because Ka pushes him to do so.

i dunno, that is just what I like to think, if you add hidden memories creeping in like that, it takes away from the power of Ka, not saying it is wrong, i guess i just don't like the idea of belittling Ka

he he >.>

[Chap]

what if that part of Ka is "hidden memories"?
It might be Ka that "allows" Roland to vaguely remember things, and therefore it influences his decision.
Maybe the more Roland is in touch with Ka, the more he remembers from previous loops?

Just sayin' :cowboy:

[Bumbler19]

you make a good point sir, i dunno about the Ka is hidden memories part, but the part about how the more Roland is in touch with Ka part is a very interesting point.

although.....

do we have any proof that everything is always the same in every loop? been toying around in other threads about how this new loop could just be another world similar to Roland's but not quite the same, like the different versions of New York.

IF that is the case his memories might not always guide him in the right direction.

[Kes]

Page 19. Had to say it.

[Chap]

Well he doesn't always make the right decisions, so maybe he will "remember" (intuition) more the next time around?
Like Jake and Eddie dying, not saying it's Rolands fault - but maybe he will "learn" from this, and manage to avoid them getting killed in the next loops. Heck he may even not drop Jake in the first place.

and no there's no proof that everything is the same in every loop, in fact the only proof is that some things are different (the horn). But I see that as progress. Now that he has the horn, something will make his quest more successful, somehow. Maybe Jake will hang on to the Horn when Roland drops him or something, and pull himself up, who knows?

lots of assumptions here, but hey!

[flaggwalkstheline]

I just thought he was really smart...

[Matt]

I think part of what drives Roland is the memories from past loops. I'm sure it's very much in his sub conscience.

[Bumbler19]

so, why would Roland remember all of his past loops the seconds he goes through the door? only to forget seconds later.

just as he goes through, he yells, NO, NOT AGAIN!

been toying around with memories and things in the Roland's Intuitions thread, but it doesn't necessarily explain whey he remembers it all at the end.

As in the Intuitions thread suggests, his memories and lessons learned in previous loops sort of, guide and influence decisions and actions he takes.

But He doesn't necessarily need to remember everything all at once... if that was the only case it seems these memories or subconscious memories would build up regardless of this event, at least that is what i think....

So again, the question is WHY he "fully" remembers everything, and why such a brief period of time.

Only answer I can think of is ---- Torment....

[Darkthoughts]

Roland's Intuition & Why Remember To Forget:

Merging both threads with the main "loop thread" (That Thing, You Can Only Talk About When You've Finished The Series). Great questions, but anything pertaining to loops can be discussed in here :thumbsup:

[Chap]

Roland's Intuition & Why Remember To Forget:

Merging both threads with the main "loop thread" (That Thing, You Can Only Talk About When You've Finished The Series). Great questions, but anything pertaining to loops can be discussed in here :thumbsup:

Sorry about that. I had no idea what this thread was about because of the name :P

[MonteGss]

I do not think Roland's quote of "No, not again" means he remembers everything about his previous loops. Not at all. To me, it is Roland realizing he is going back to the desert, to the point where he knew that he'd reach the Tower, and crying out his sadness and unhappiness. I didn't see it having anything to do with remembering any loops.

[Kes]

Sorry if this has been discussed before.

Roland often "knows" things by intuition, he knows where to go, what to do, who to talk to etc etc. very often. (I don't remember any examples though) and I believe it was called intuition, or whatever.
But does anyone besides me think that maybe, just maybe, his intuition can in fact be memories from past "loops"? Memories he doesn't even recognize as such, because he's supposed to have forgotten? Kind of like how Jakes memories of his old life fades away.
In the previous loops, maybe he didn't get as far as he did this time (maybe further and further each time), and that his intuition is memories of what he has done (or failed to do) in a past loop, so he must do it differently now?

Your thoughts? :orely:

I'll have to go back through and see if I can find them...but I think Roland actually says (as well as some of the others in the Ka-tet) in MORE than one place that he knows something "just knows it", "doesn't know how he knows it", "knows exactly what will happen next" and he doesn't say deja vu or intuition that I can remember but says "ka wills it" or something like "it would work because it had to, because that was the only way it would work and ka wills it".

I'll see if I can find some specific quotes...but the foreshadowing, especially in the last 3 novels, becomes pretty clear.

[Kes]

i dunno, that is just what I like to think, if you add hidden memories creeping in like that, it takes away from the power of Ka, not saying it is wrong, i guess i just don't like the idea of belittling Ka

he he >.>

But perhaps that is what Ka is? As we learn in DT7, you are never beyond Ka, and all things serve the Beam. I would think that hidden memories of previous attempts included.

[sarah]

Hi Bumbler19 congrats on finishing the series and welcome to the site. Just FYI this thread will be merged tomorrow or Monday with the other End thread. It is filled with all sorts good stuff about the ending and loop and whatnots. It is getting pretty long now but it is worth a look through. Thanks!

[Letti]

For my part I don't think Roland makes loops... but spirals. It's not my idea but I am absolutely convinced. And if we are talking about a spiral there is no time travelling.

Here is a picture I made it's damn clumsy but that's how I see Roland's journey right now.
"D" means desert. :)

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/Lettike/helix1.jpg

So all his journeys seem very very similar (their beginnings and ends are specially) but all of them are different and new.

[sarah]

yes, I like the term spiral much better than time travel. Time travel suggests that the past is erased and you start again at point A. I don't think Roland's past is ever erased more that it has shifted to a different level or spiral. Thanks for the picture, Letti. :D

[Chap]

I've sort of seen them as spirals as well, but ones that are very simular (not identical). And I've also thought that for each "loop"/spiral, he gets closer to achieving whatever it is he's doing.

[The King of Kings]

so, why would Roland remember all of his past loops the seconds he goes through the door? only to forget seconds later.

just as he goes through, he yells, NO, NOT AGAIN!

been toying around with memories and things in the Roland's Intuitions thread, but it doesn't necessarily explain whey he remembers it all at the end.

As in the Intuitions thread suggests, his memories and lessons learned in previous loops sort of, guide and influence decisions and actions he takes.

But He doesn't necessarily need to remember everything all at once... if that was the only case it seems these memories or subconscious memories would build up regardless of this event, at least that is what i think....

So again, the question is WHY he "fully" remembers everything, and why such a brief period of time.

Only answer I can think of is ---- Torment....

Do you ever have a song stuck in your head that you HAVE to listen to, but for the life of you, you cant think of an artist, a lyric, or how it goes? Then the minute you hear a little bit of the song everything comes back to you?

I imagine it being like that.

[Darkthoughts]

Roland's Intuition & Why Remember To Forget:

Merging both threads with the main "loop thread" (That Thing, You Can Only Talk About When You've Finished The Series). Great questions, but anything pertaining to loops can be discussed in here :thumbsup:

Sorry about that. I had no idea what this thread was about because of the name :P

:D No worries! I know it's a bit cryptic, but we decided that it would be too much of a spoiler to name it the Loop Thread ;)

[Bumbler19]

Do you ever have a song stuck in your head that you HAVE to listen to, but for the life of you, you cant think of an artist, a lyric, or how it goes? Then the minute you hear a little bit of the song everything comes back to you?

I imagine it being like that.

interesting, i never really thought of it like that... I like it, I saw it as something that Gan either did to him, or let him have the memories for a purpose, rather than his mind just being jump started... I really like that thought tho.


I do not think Roland's quote of "No, not again" means he remembers everything about his previous loops. Not at all. To me, it is Roland realizing he is going back to the desert, to the point where he knew that he'd reach the Tower, and crying out his sadness and unhappiness. I didn't see it having anything to do with remembering any loops.

hmm, i guess that is a point, I read it as being a much more agonizing situation like, when you are trying to build a card castle and you keep getting so close to the top and every time you do it falls down and you have to start all over again like 19 times... so you are all like... Gawd-Damnit not again!!

guess I wouldn't rule out what you said though, it is kind of an ambiguous statement now that I see another angle...

[Bumbler19]

yeah, as i've been posting and reading more and more its becoming more apparent to me that each spiral or loop is a different version of Roland's world kinda.

Hi Bumbler19 congrats on finishing the series and welcome to the site. Just FYI this thread will be merged tomorrow or Monday with the other End thread. It is filled with all sorts good stuff about the ending and loop and whatnots. It is getting pretty long now but it is worth a look through. Thanks!


Okay dokay!

[MonteGss]

I do not think Roland's quote of "No, not again" means he remembers everything about his previous loops. Not at all. To me, it is Roland realizing he is going back to the desert, to the point where he knew that he'd reach the Tower, and crying out his sadness and unhappiness. I didn't see it having anything to do with remembering any loops.

hmm, i guess that is a point, I read it as being a much more agonizing situation like, when you are trying to build a card castle and you keep getting so close to the top and every time you do it falls down and you have to start all over again like 19 times... so you are all like... Gawd-Damnit not again!!

guess I wouldn't rule out what you said though, it is kind of an ambiguous statement now that I see another angle...

I can see how you'd think that. I agree that it is a statement that is very wide open to interpretation. :)

[The King of Kings]

yeah, as i've been posting and reading more and more its becoming more apparent to me that each spiral or loop is a different version of Roland's world kinda.

Hi Bumbler19 congrats on finishing the series and welcome to the site. Just FYI this thread will be merged tomorrow or Monday with the other End thread. It is filled with all sorts good stuff about the ending and loop and whatnots. It is getting pretty long now but it is worth a look through. Thanks!


Okay dokay!

I was throwing around the idea that originally there just two worlds, the actual Gilead/mid/end world place, and the actual earth world. Then with each cycle, another copy of the two places are made and the newer ones are now the "two real worlds".

Just an idea though. What do you think?

[Bumbler19]

I dont really agree with that, maybe the concept of new worlds being created at each spiral is a good one but it would have to be more than 2.

Because remember the doors/thinnies underneath castle discordia and also in the fedic Dogan? those doors went to many other completely different worlds nothing like Roland's world or New York. Remember they weren't really sure the creature worm thing in the tunnels was from the prim receding, or todash space... they said it maybe came through a door from another world, not necessarily todash.

Also, i'm not sure about this but Taheen i'm pretty sure i read at one point come from a different world.... completely different than the key 2.

[jayson]

Also we know that Callahan visited many different worlds and I don't think they were created by any act of Roland's doing.

[Kes]

Also we know that Callahan visited many different worlds and I don't think they were created by any act of Roland's doing.

And there is further explanation of how that could be in "The Jaunt". A short story who's book name escapes me at the moment, though I'm sure someone else knows it off the top of their head?

Also I believe that the Taheen were explained as being directly from the Prim, and superior to "humes" in strength and length of life etc...

Remember the conversation between Finli O'Tego and his boss Pimli about the potential of a Taheen basketball team?


The Can-toi on the other hand are spoken of as inferior to humes and aspirant of human status...I believe because they were some sort of hybrid and not directly from the Prim.

[Bumbler19]

Also I believe that the Taheen were explained as being directly from the Prim, and superior to "humes" in strength and length of life etc...

Ah, i remember the conversation but i guess i din't remember that part though.

----------------------------------
On a New Idea-

So, assuming it is true that the keystone world of 99 (Stephen King's world) time always flows forward, in one direction, then It would also make sense that for every loop they visit a completely different when in world 99, or maybe they don't visit at all, here i'll get to a point.

The point is that Stephen King is only Gan's Writer or w/e for one loop or spiral. Which means that Robert Browning was probably a previous one. The others have been lost to history, the stories probably don't have to be popular, as long as they are written down.

OR

Ka or Gan or the turtle song w/e, influenced Robert Browning for the sake of giving King inspiration.

What do you think?

[EdwardDean1999]

I've always been a fan of the loop. KA is a wheel and all that mythos. I also like to think of Roland's return to the desert as appropriate. That's when we know Roland as a monster/killing machine. Roland is then at his lowest point in the Roland time line. He has absolutely no redeeming qualities. Everyone around him dies. It's good to jump back to this point of Roland's development because it happens just as he is about to meet the instrument of his Redemption: Jake.

[EdwardDean1999]

[quote]

The point is that Stephen King is only Gan's Writer or w/e for one loop or spiral. Which means that Robert Browning was probably a previous one. The others have been lost to history, the stories probably don't have to be popular, as long as they are written down.

OR

Ka or Gan or the turtle song w/e, influenced Robert Browning for the sake of giving King inspiration.

What do you think?

That's a fun idea. So who's the next? JJ Abrams?

[Kes]

Also I believe that the Taheen were explained as being directly from the Prim, and superior to "humes" in strength and length of life etc...

Ah, i remember the conversation but i guess i din't remember that part though.

----------------------------------
On a New Idea-

So, assuming it is true that the keystone world of 99 (Stephen King's world) time always flows forward, in one direction, then It would also make sense that for every loop they visit a completely different when in world 99, or maybe they don't visit at all, here i'll get to a point.

The point is that Stephen King is only Gan's Writer or w/e for one loop or spiral. Which means that Robert Browning was probably a previous one. The others have been lost to history, the stories probably don't have to be popular, as long as they are written down.

OR

Ka or Gan or the turtle song w/e, influenced Robert Browning for the sake of giving King inspiration.

What do you think?

Okay...I like that idea...it jibes also with the notion of the Crimson King being Stephen King's evil twin.

If you buy what is said about CK in Insomnia it's said he jumps from person to person, incarnation to incarnation.

So...Gan's writer...and the nemesis of Gan's writer...jumping through time/loops alternately creating/destroying the Tower.

[Bumbler19]

So, assuming it is true that the keystone world of 99 (Stephen King's world) time always flows forward, in one direction, then It would also make sense that for every loop they visit a completely different when in world 99, or maybe they don't visit at all, here i'll get to a point.

The point is that Stephen King is only Gan's Writer or w/e for one loop or spiral. Which means that Robert Browning was probably a previous one. The others have been lost to history, the stories probably don't have to be popular, as long as they are written down.



What do you think?

Okay...I like that idea...it jibes also with the notion of the Crimson King being Stephen King's evil twin.

If you buy what is said about CK in Insomnia it's said he jumps from person to person, incarnation to incarnation.

So...Gan's writer...and the nemesis of Gan's writer...jumping through time/loops alternately creating/destroying the Tower.
Well they aren't really alternately creating/destroying the Tower because destroying the Tower means destroying Gan, which would unmake all of existence. What basically is happening is Gan's writer is continually trying to save existence, and the nemesis is continually trying to destroy it, but apparently fails each time (at least previously)

If Gan was destroyed Maerlyn would then rein over the prim, and who knows what he would really do with it...

Well i'm currently reading the Gunslinger Born comics, at the end a lot about the history of Gan and Roland's world is explained.

[Kes]

Note: These comics were not written by Stephen King... but King DOES read everything AND OK them.


I have them on order at the moment, but someone else posted in another thread the lineage of the CK so I was aware. (You might want to spoilerize that kind of stuff from now on, in case someone who hasn't read the comics wants to learn that stuff for themselves.)

I have lots of theories/guesses as to why Roland can't/didn't kill the Crimson King...but that's a subject for another thread:)

[Bumbler19]

k continuation of my last post, wanted to put taht stuff in spoiler tags....

Well it was pertaining specifically to the loop so i figured it went here... because of it pertaining to the loop, it doesn't really go in the comic parts either OR a specific CKdeath thread that doesn't talk about the loop... oh well spoiler tags around it now!!

well, we know CK is from the line of Eld from reading the actual books, at least generally. At least it was highly implied, how else could he get in the tower in the first place?

but thanks for the heads up kes.

In issue 2, it explains how CK came from the line of Eld... A great old one, a Spider queen demon from the prim, basically became pregnant with Arthur Eld's child, that child is the CK.

I guess that doesn't doesn't prove or disprove the fact that CK is SK's twinner... hmm where was I going with this...

ah yes, well the comic goes on to explain that Roland is prophesied to kill CK, and when that happens Roland will rein in the power of the prim forever.

Now, we all know that Roland didn't really kill CK, he merely diminished him to eyeballs... so maybe, Roland's loop will end when he actually fully succeeds in Killing CK? and that is all? and the whole loop thing merely a, "mission failed: try again!" Patrick needs some White Out!!!

Also it hints that Roland will climb each level of the tower and destroy the outer dark... he needs to kill all the servants of the prim. So that means CK probably cannot really die until all other Prim-bastards are destroyed first.

Note: These comics were not written by Stephen King... but King DOES read everything AND OK them.

[Kes]

well, we know CK is from the line of Eld from reading the actual books, at least generally. At least it was highly implied, how else could he get in the tower in the first place?

In issue 2, it explains how CK came from the line of Eld... A great old one, a Spider queen demon from the prim, basically became pregnant with Arthur Eld's child, that child is the CK.

I guess that doesn't doesn't prove or disprove the fact that CK is SK's twinner... hmm where was I going with this...

ah yes, well the comic goes on to explain that Roland is prophesied to kill CK, and when that happens Roland will rein in the power of the prim forever.

Now, we all know that Roland didn't really kill CK, he merely diminished him to eyeballs... so maybe, Roland's loop will end when he actually fully succeeds in Killing CK? and that is all? and the whole loop thing merely a, "mission failed: try again!" Patrick needs some White Out!!!

Also it hints that Roland will climb each level of the tower and destroy the outer dark... he needs to kill all the servants of the prim. So that means CK probably cannot really die until all other Prim-bastards are destroyed first.

Note: These comics were not written by Stephen King... but King DOES read everything AND OK them.

He must have had a sigul of Eld. The series doesn't say that you have to be of the line of Eld, only that you have to have a sigul of Eld (the guns, or the horn and I would suspect possibly more.) I've often asked myself what CK had that allowed him to enter the Tower.

This also begs the question, what would have happened if Roland had ventured onto a balcony, to check on Patrick or take in the view or somesuch thing. Would that have been the end of the loop for him as well?

[Bumbler19]

He must have had a sigul of Eld. The series doesn't say that you have to be of the line of Eld, only that you have to have a sigul of Eld (the guns, or the horn and I would suspect possibly more.) I've often asked myself what CK had that allowed him to enter the Tower.


Yeah agreed, but the fact that he did get into the tower somehow, and that he is of the line of Eld implies that he did have some sort of sigul.

like i said before, some think that the "torn up baby clothes" that Roland saw on that floor weren't really torn up baby clothes, but CK's torn up sigul.

I also have a theory that venturing onto the balcony was a sort of renounciation to the tower because CK was putting himself before the tower, so maybe, the tower rendered CK's sigul powerless.

Who knows what would have happened really Roland opened the balcony doors, the 3Kings prediction could come true, CK could have somehow taken Roland's guns and entered the tower, dunno there is already a thread on this subject though.

[Darkthoughts]

I just posted this in the "Saved or damned" thread, but I thought it was pertinent to discussion here too.

Bumbler19 - I really like your observations from the comics. I'd noticed something similar in The Gunslinger Born #1. In the backstory there it says:
Each of it's [The Tower] narrow twisting stairways led to a different level of creation - a distant time period, an alternative reality, even a completely unimagined and unimaginable version of now. Our other selves, which Vannay called our twinners, existed in these alternative worlds.
So I'm wondering if Roland won't be redeemed until he saves the Tower in every world. So, each time he loops, he's doing so on a slightly different level of the Tower?
Prior to rereading the comics, I've been of the opinion that Roland was on exactly the same loop every time...but now I'm not so sure :unsure:

[Bumbler19]

Prior to rereading the comics, I've been of the opinion that Roland was on exactly the same loop every time...but now I'm not so sure :unsure:

yeah I was the same way before i started reading them. Now the only that I am unsure of is if SK is just accepting this comic info, or really OK'ing them as truths pertaining to the DT universe. But i'm also not sure that even matters to me.

[jayson]

Prior to rereading the comics, I've been of the opinion that Roland was on exactly the same loop every time...but now I'm not so sure :unsure:

So you are finally coming around to my view of the loops as different each time. Welcome. We've been waiting for you. :lol:

[obscurejude]

Prior to rereading the comics, I've been of the opinion that Roland was on exactly the same loop every time...but now I'm not so sure :unsure:

So you are finally coming around to my view of the loops as different each time. Welcome. We've been waiting for you. :lol:

Lisa, does this contradict your theory about Roland being in a time bubble? If so, could you explain and does it factor into your current reconsidering?

[Bumbler19]

Time bubble? i havent heard about this theory yet! I is Excited

omg ObscureJude, All i could think about yesterday was Donny Darko now i see your sig and avatar... ur freakin me out.

[obscurejude]

Time bubble? i havent heard about this theory yet! I is Excited

omg ObscureJude, All i could think about yesterday was Donny Darko now i see your sig and avatar... ur freakin me out.

Hopefully Lisa will explain it. I think its a great theory.

Check out the Donnie Darko thread bumbler. I'd love to hear your thoughts. :)

[Darkthoughts]

I haven't been posting in the discussions much lately because I'm using wii internet which is hell! :lol:

Ryan, I'm not really sure. The comic backstories have provided me with "evidence" (I use the term loosely) to support both my old and new theories.
For the bubble theory I found this:

The worlds spun and seasons passed, but the Dark Tower was timeless. It generated time.
(Bumbler, my theory is that the Tower/Gan has taken the passage of time from Roland being in the desert upto his reaching the Tower, and set it aside, out of time to create the endless loop...until the point where Roland "gets it right").

The second quote however, thats making me think Roland may only [i]think he's looping, when infact he's repeating the quest in all the possible worlds...is on the previous page in my last post.

But Jayson, even if this new theory sticks for me, I still think he picks the same Eddie, Suze and Jake each time. The doors make that possible.

[Bumbler19]

For the bubble theory I found this:

The worlds spun and seasons passed, but the Dark Tower was timeless. It generated time.
(Bumbler, my theory is that the Tower/Gan has taken the passage of time from Roland being in the desert upto his reaching the Tower, and set it aside, out of time to create the endless loop...until the point where Roland "gets it right").

The second quote however, thats making me think Roland may only [i]think he's looping, when infact he's repeating the quest in all the possible worlds...is on the previous page in my last post.


Well, if you are ok with discussing the bubble theory i'm going to jump in and say a few things.

If it was a time bubble, completely separate as you say, I don't really see a point in it happening, because it would be set aside, "getting it right" wouldn't affect anything else so i don't see the point, at least the way I think of it.

Secondly

The worlds spun and seasons passed, but the Dark Tower was timeless. It generated time.
IF you are looking at the way time and matter behave according to physics (I've actually brought this up to my physics professor and long ... long discussions on this) the interlacing of time, distance, and decay are tightly woven together. by law of Einstein's theory of relativity.

Short description - The faster you go, the faster "everything else around you" seems to go. ex: if you were going the speed of light you wouldn't age but your twin brother will age Y*C amount of time relative to how long you were traveling at the speed of light. lemme say that better... after you come out of light speed you will not have aged at all, because according to YOU it was only a few seconds, although your twin brother will have aged 20 years.

anyway i'll get to the point The faster you go, the longer it takes for you to atomically decay, the slower you go, the faster it takes to atomically decay. So something that is the Nexus of all worlds, all universes, and all time, and the point at which everything spins, would have to be traveling a distance of 0units/ps (True zero speed, not relative). Which if you were to do the math what ever was in the middle(the tower) would disintegrate in a matter of less than a millisecond, basically instantly. So basically what ever is in the middle has to be made up of something that has NO ATOMIC DECAY. (which is, as far as we know doesn't exist, but theoretically possible, and also this is a fiction book)


The worlds spun and seasons passed, but the Dark Tower was timeless. It generated time. So this quote to me says that the tower simply has NO atomic Decay.

The only other way this would work, which would obliterate everything i just said would be that the nexus itself is also in motion, BUT if that were true, the nexus would have to be traveling at a much higher speed than what is spinning around it because of its timeless properties. so that doesn't really work

of coarse, in this world there is Magic, and as we know, the prim, so existing out of time could simply be magic.


Check out the Donnie Darko thread bumbler. I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Honestly I've only seen it once, I will have to watch it again before I post in that thread, I was just thinking about the bunny mask lol.

[jayson]

But Jayson, even if this new theory sticks for me, I still think he picks the same Eddie, Suze and Jake each time. The doors make that possible.

I still don't even think he picks Eddie, Suze and Jake each time, let alone the same ones. I still see nothing indicating the loops have any necessary commonality other than Roland. They could, I certainly concede that, but I don't see as how they necessarily do.

[Darkthoughts]

Bumbler - the time frame within the bubble wouldn't be the same sequence playing over and over. It's more like removing 19 years (that's just a random number :D ) from a timeline and letting the years expire and then roll back to year one again. There will never be more or less time within the bubble, but what is key is that every living thing within the bubble is completely free to act differently each time.

[obscurejude]

I like thinking of the time bubble like the gingerbread house that Sheemie created for Dinky, Ted, and himself to discuss things off the radar of the low men.

[Darkthoughts]

Yes! You used that analogy before and I'd forgotten...it's entirely perfectly expressed that way :couple:

[jayson]

So if it is the same Eddie, Jake and Suze (and Oy) every time that's a pretty bleak existence for them to be locked into to being Roland's tools for however long it takes Roland to figure out whatever it is he's supposed to figure out to get himself released from the bubble, or if he is eternally in the bubble, that is a exponentially more bleak existence for the tet. An eternity of being drawn to their deaths and whatever you want to call what Suze got as ending. I can see it being vaguely acceptable to Suze but it seems less than promising for the rest. I hope they don't have the same deja vu as Roland because if they became aware that they were stuck in such a loop like Sisyphus and his boulder it would provide an existential crisis.

[Darkthoughts]

I think Roland is the only one to ever have the moment of awareness - as he's the only one to ever reach the top of the Tower. There could be something in that...:orely:

[jayson]

There certainly could be. King allowed for most interpretations to be perfectly valid. :D

The existential implications for the tet if they were aware of such a thing intrigue me.

[Gantoad]

The Dark Tower is the nexus of all spaces and times, but each version of the Tower is meant for one person. As the Talisman was for Jack, so too was the Tower for Roland. So maybe given how the Tower tracked all moments of Roland's life, everywhere he had ever been, it is at least for Roland the nexus of all his space and time. So maybe if you entered it, it would be your life all over again. Moreover, I think that may be Gan's gift, that divine feat that no one otherwise gets, 'the cosmic do-over.'

[Bumbler19]

The Dark Tower is the nexus of all spaces and times, but each version of the Tower is meant for one person. As the Talisman was for Jack, so too was the Tower for Roland. So maybe given how the Tower tracked all moments of Roland's life, everywhere he had ever been, it is at least for Roland the nexus of all his space and time. So maybe if you entered it, it would be your life all over again. Moreover, I think that may be Gan's gift, that divine feat that no one otherwise gets, 'the cosmic do-over.'

I personally respectfully disagree, I'm not saying that it wasn't different for CK for sure, but I think that it was still "rolands" tower. Maybe you are puting it a little bit too simply than you really wanted to, but all of that for just a cosmic do-over really makes the plot of everything relating to saving the beams, and saving Stephen King all a big waste of book.

Generally, in most other stories if you are questing to reach a goal for yourself, such as a cosmic do-over it is filled with trials for you that simply want you to stop. Saving the entire multi-verse is kind of big, and in my opinion, that is what the quest is about, to save the tower in every world.

I suppose, you could say the "gift" was a reward for saving the tower, but that was never Roland's quest, it was merely to reach the top.

Also the quote "Oh, no!" he screamed. "Please, not again! Have pity! Have mercy!" right as he goes through the door.

Dunno about you, but that is never what goes through my mind when I get a gift unless it is socks... and you would think that if God, or Destiny were to give you a gift, it would be better than socks....

[obscurejude]

So if it is the same Eddie, Jake and Suze (and Oy) every time that's a pretty bleak existence for them to be locked into to being Roland's tools for however long it takes Roland to figure out whatever it is he's supposed to figure out to get himself released from the bubble, or if he is eternally in the bubble, that is a exponentially more bleak existence for the tet. An eternity of being drawn to their deaths and whatever you want to call what Suze got as ending. I can see it being vaguely acceptable to Suze but it seems less than promising for the rest. I hope they don't have the same deja vu as Roland because if they became aware that they were stuck in such a loop like Sisyphus and his boulder it would provide an existential crisis.

You know I believe its a book about the existential conscience of America. I really do. It is bleak and depressing, but its perfectly in line with Browning and Eliot. Its a perfect ode to the Wastelands and Childe Roland. I wish more people knew these works well enough to see the immense thematic overlaps.

[DamagePlan]

I just finished the series last night. I think he looped back to his own world(As to say I don't believe he has to save the tower in every world). I think the horn is more important for us the readers to know that it could be different. I believe the loop can be ended but as to how and why I'm not sure.

Through out the story the tower was made to seem like this great and good thing at the nexus of everything but as he was climbing the tower I began to not feel that way. However I like the idea of the tower having an "issue" with all the blood shed in it's name, it makes me feel like the tower is good, the way I was lead to believe through the stories.

Couple of questions I have about the loops are, how does it affect the Keystone World? Does the Keystone World loop with Roland? Do ALL the worlds loop with Roland? Maybe he is in another world and each world has it's own Keystone World America-side. That would kind of clear that up. But more issues come from that. Jake, Eddie and Suze weren't from the Keystone World, so they could be pulled from anywhere fine, but, there was only one SK just like there was only one DT and the books were written. But presumably this all happened before so...

I thought at one point it said the CK couldn't get into the tower without Roland's gun(s) but he clearly DID get in. So why did he go out to the balcony? Why did the CK see Roland's stuff int he tower? Because he was the one who ultimately made to the top?

I have two theories on ending the loop. One, keeping the ka-tet and realizing that's more important than the tower BUT an issue there is that one of the tet died saving the beam, no beam, no tower, therefore maybe, no universe. So then how could he keep the tet and cry off the tower? By the time the beams were safe the tet was broken. Then again at the end it said Patrick represented ALL of those who died for the tower and presumably he lived, Roland looked out for him.

The other theory would have been to completely destroy the CK, maybe shoot those eyes?

[DamagePlan]

So did I kill this thread?

[The Lady of Shadows]

no you didn't kill the thread. the site was down for a little and sometimes threads can go a couple of days with nothing new going on.

be patient, visit some other threads, introduce yourself (if you haven't already). drop by the castle for something to eat (or drink).

someone will post something, have no fear gunslinger.

:rose:

[pathoftheturtle]

...Through out the story the tower was made to seem like this great and good thing at the nexus of everything but as he was climbing the tower I began to not feel that way. However I like the idea of the tower having an "issue" with all the blood shed in it's name, it makes me feel like the tower is good, the way I was lead to believe through the stories.
...Wow, what a great post. Right on.

I'd like to hear how you respond to many of the threads we frequent here in DT7.


I just finished the series last night. I think he looped back to his own world(As to say I don't believe he has to save the tower in every world).
...Well, what is a "world" anyway?
...
Couple of questions I have about the loops are, how does it affect the Keystone World? Does the Keystone World loop with Roland? Do ALL the worlds loop with Roland? Maybe he is in another world and each world has it's own Keystone World America-side. That would kind of clear that up. But more issues come from that. Jake, Eddie and Suze weren't from the Keystone World, so they could be pulled from anywhere fine, but, there was only one SK just like there was only one DT and the books were written. But presumably this all happened before so...
Where to begin...:unsure: ...If ALL worlds loop with Roland, we'd presumably be there now. <_<
:orely: I think those are very good questions. I do think that it's "another world" each time, and that different earths are "keystone" relative to it. That keeps their "proper places" locked, in the big house of cards.

I think that you also seem the type to be as interested as I am in discussing the Folklore & Mythology of the series, like it says on Town Commons (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/forumdisplay.php?f=53) .
Might be time to add some new topics.:excited:

....I thought at one point it said the CK couldn't get into the tower without Roland's gun(s) but he clearly DID get in. So why did he go out to the balcony? Why did the CK see Roland's stuff int he tower? Because he was the one who ultimately made to the top? ...please link --> The prisoner of the... (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=2860)

...I have two theories on ending the loop. One, keeping the ka-tet and realizing that's more important than the tower BUT an issue there is that one of the tet died saving the beam, no beam, no tower, therefore maybe, no universe. So then how could he keep the tet and cry off the tower? By the time the beams were safe the tet was broken. ...Again, eloquent. You have a real way of getting to key points of the logic in few words.

...
The other theory would have been to completely destroy the CK, maybe shoot those eyes?Favorite Quote of mine (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=222731&postcount=196)

That's a theory we talked about back when thedarktower.net was functional.

[Jon]

...Through out the story the tower was made to seem like this great and good thing at the nexus of everything but as he was climbing the tower I began to not feel that way. However I like the idea of the tower having an "issue" with all the blood shed in it's name, it makes me feel like the tower is good, the way I was lead to believe through the stories.
...Wow, what a great post. Right on.

I'd like to hear how you respond to many of the threads we frequent here in DT7.


I just finished the series last night. I think he looped back to his own world(As to say I don't believe he has to save the tower in every world).
...Well, what is a "world" anyway?
...
Couple of questions I have about the loops are, how does it affect the Keystone World? Does the Keystone World loop with Roland? Do ALL the worlds loop with Roland? Maybe he is in another world and each world has it's own Keystone World America-side. That would kind of clear that up. But more issues come from that. Jake, Eddie and Suze weren't from the Keystone World, so they could be pulled from anywhere fine, but, there was only one SK just like there was only one DT and the books were written. But presumably this all happened before so...
Where to begin...:unsure: ...If ALL worlds loop with Roland, we'd presumably be there now. <_<
:orely: I think those are very good questions. I do think that it's "another world" each time, and that different earths are "keystone" relative to it. That keeps their "proper places" locked, in the big house of cards.

I think that you also seem the type to be as interested as I am in discussing the Folklore & Mythology of the series, like it says on Town Commons (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/forumdisplay.php?f=53) .
Might be time to add some new topics.:excited:

....I thought at one point it said the CK couldn't get into the tower without Roland's gun(s) but he clearly DID get in. So why did he go out to the balcony? Why did the CK see Roland's stuff int he tower? Because he was the one who ultimately made to the top? ...please link --> The prisoner of the... (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=2860)

...I have two theories on ending the loop. One, keeping the ka-tet and realizing that's more important than the tower BUT an issue there is that one of the tet died saving the beam, no beam, no tower, therefore maybe, no universe. So then how could he keep the tet and cry off the tower? By the time the beams were safe the tet was broken. ...Again, eloquent. You have a real way of getting to key points of the logic in few words.

...
The other theory would have been to completely destroy the CK, maybe shoot those eyes?Favorite Quote of mine (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=222731&postcount=196)

That's a theory we talked about back when thedarktower.net was functional.



Hi Mike...long time no see! Is that an AC/DC reference in your sig?

[Hoot]

Okay, hello, I just finished book the seventh. I thought it was a disappointment really. Not that I had a problem with the ending or anything, that was a fine ending, and I can't really see it end another way. [Well, I briefly glimpsed a cliffhanger, sorta where Roland reaches the top of the Tower and cries out the names, a burst of light comes to him, and the book ends. I understand Stephen King would've been sick to do such an end though.]
I thought the book was quite dull, but that's besides the point.

When Roland is placed back in the deserts, does... Eh.... Existence rewind itself for him? Do Eddie, Jake, and Susannah go back to their respective time and locations in New York, Walter, the citizens of Lud, Tull, and the Wolves be reincarnated, and the Crimson King... Ummm. Redrawn into existence?! [I thought the erasing was incredibly lame too by the way =P]
Or is it simply another when of Roland's little chase? If then, where is the REAL Roland of that when? I dunno if this makes sense or not... Time travel is tough business =P When Jake went into Eddie's past, he saw a younger Eddie. I think should Eddie have gone to his past himself, he would've seen himself as well, as it's really an alternate reality with the same events, just happening again, or that's how I see it. So where's Roland?
If it's the case that everything's placed back into neat order for Roland to chase after the tower again, then everything revolves around Roland now? :arg: Or even if it's all alternate realities, what about Keystone Earth? Isn't the concept that it never rewinds, like the book suggests all of the events in the books keep doing? If that's the case, then there'd be no need to save Stephen King, no? And in the loops previous there'd have been no need either, no? Or does the Keystone Earth reassert itself based on Roland's loops as well? Does time never progress, just repeat itself to Roland's eternal quest?
I dunno, I just saw the entire loop thing as paradoxical. Exactly HOW can the same series of events happen so many times? I guess I can let all the dead people [Mordred, Walter, Crimson King, Father Callahan, Tull, Lud, Blaine, delah] slide as being reincarnated [Did the Tower just make them again in order to test Roland or something?] but I see some real problems with this whole repeating thing. =S Sure, I'm open to the loops changing over time, as do all things [Though the phrase 'ka is a wheel' arguably disagrees with that thesis] but... I dunno, I just don't see it happening.
Say, when Roland is again in the deserts, is the Tower safe again? Let's say it IS safe, due to the previous loop. Are the breakers breaking the beam? If so, then it's not really that safe, is it?
I'm sorry if this is just a jumble of words. I can't really organize my thoughts right now. =S And sorry again if it's supposed to be obvious. It's just confusing as heck to me. :beat:

Edit: Sorry if this is discussed in another topic, I wasn't quite able to track such a topic down. =S Especially because most of them are 10+ pages long...

[LadyHitchhiker]

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1778
Check this link out. This is our in depth discussion of all things regarding the end of the series! :D

And the reason we have such lengthy discussions about it is because the answer is NOT obvious.

[Merlin1958]

There are a ton of other threads out there that you might get some thoughts from. I assume this thread will be merged with one them eventually. There are threads which deal with each book. So one concerning DT VII may give you some food for thought. off hand, I don't recall all the other thread names but one you might want to read is called....So the Horn...hey lets stop a Sec... something like that.

if I recall the book discussions are in the "Baronies" forum. I could be wrong though

Good Luck!!

[LadyHitchhiker]

I love how SK's books are able to be interpreted differently... :huglove:

[Darkthoughts]

Merging :D

I know the Loop thread is long, but I summarised a few pages back, so please take a look and join in :couple:

[urborn2die]

The premise that I see to the "repeating his path" is thus:


He saw and understood at once. the knowledge falling upon him in a hammer blow, hot as the sun of the desert that was the apotheosis of all deserts.
How many times had he climbed these stairs only to to find himself peeled back, curved back, turned back?:panic:
Not to the beginning (when things might have been changed and time's curse lifted) but to that moment in the Mohaine Desert when he had finally understood that his thoughtless, question less quest would ultimately succeed.


A few paragraphs later the voice (Ka, Gan, The Tower :rose:) calls the horn of Aurthur Eld " his sigul " a promise things might change, chance for rest maybe even salvation.

Sai King used Browning's poem in many places to form the story and the last stanza tells us the answer (in my mind).

There they stood, ranged along the hillsides, met
To view the last of me, a living frame
For one more picture! In a sheet of flame
I saw them and I knew them all. And yet
Dauntless the slug-horn to my lips I set,
And blew. 'Childe Roland to the Dark Tower came.'

I take this as saying that the true end, the correct end is for Roland
to blow the horn of Eld at the tower after he calls the names of those he
lost.

Think of rolands quest as this, He is repeating the same time period over and over so the only version anyone remembers will be the final one. Its like watching a movie, it took many more times to make the movie then what you see but you only are shown the end results, or a save game in a video game.


Just my view of it all and If I have repeated someone's Theory then It was by accident , say true.

Commala come come
my story now is done
all the foes of men and rose
have fallen ,the day is won..........this time...

[Bumbler19]

I take this as saying that the true end, the correct end is for Roland
to blow the horn of Eld at the tower after he calls the names of those he
lost.




Sounds really trivial >.> but may be true, who knows

Makes Gan sound like too much of a ***Hole... Oh, you didn't blow the horn!!! Try Again!

lol

[Brice]

I'm sorry, but the princess is in another castle.

[Mad Man]

Hmm i'm sure that someone has talked about this here before me..... but it's still 23 pages that i should read for my answer :borg: so i try again


After reaching the top.... roland gets that it's a new beginning after all. That he must go all this through again but this time with the horn.... so he must do everything again without his fingers? I just went through the end again for this post. The tower gives him back the gun he lost ... and gives him the Horn of the eld. but he ain't traveling back in time - he's going on and on.... so he won't get younger - only older?


Is there a possibility that he dies on the quest/to old age before he really gets his salvation?

[pathoftheturtle]

Interesting metaphor used in passing in The Stand:
... It was... as if some irrational god had suddenly bundled her viciously through a time-warp and condemned her to live the last six weeks all over again. ...:orely:

And on that note, I would also like to say how perfect I think the title of this thread is. ;)


...
He saw and understood at once. the knowledge falling upon him in a hammer blow, hot as the sun of the desert that was the apotheosis of all deserts.
How many times had he climbed these stairs only to to find himself peeled back, curved back, turned back?:panic:
Not to the beginning (when things might have been changed and time's curse lifted) but to that moment in the Mohaine Desert when he had finally understood that his thoughtless, question less quest would ultimately succeed.
...I think I get why you highlighted the parts which you did, but I might be wrong. Could you explain, please? I'm curious how it all fits.

[Bumbler19]

Hmm i'm sure that someone has talked about this here before me..... but it's still 23 pages that i should read for my answer :borg: so i try again


After reaching the top.... roland gets that it's a new beginning after all. That he must go all this through again but this time with the horn.... so he must do everything again without his fingers? I just went through the end again for this post. The tower gives him back the gun he lost ... and gives him the Horn of the eld. but he ain't traveling back in time - he's going on and on.... so he won't get younger - only older?


Is there a possibility that he dies on the quest/to old age before he really gets his salvation?

Well... I never really assumed that his physical body continues the loop... Remember the doors on the beach? Roland's body lay in front of the door when his consciousness Entered into Eddie... Not saying it is axactly the same like his body is still in front of door "Roland" but the point is the same... If each loop is really a different world... which is a theory explored on this thread previously... His subconscious could be simply transferred into the new "Roland" or something vaguely similar to that... Could also explain why he doesnt die, but seems to get more tired and weary... his physical body is "new/younger" but his subconscious mind is really super old...

Just an idear!

[urborn2die]

[/quote]...[/QUOTE]I think I get why you highlighted the parts which you did, but I might be wrong. Could you explain, please? I'm curious how it all fits.[/QUOTE]

The highlights are the parts I felt explained why it always restarts at same point. For whatever reason Roland has to keep repeating this part of the quest until he does something right or he has done enough to warrent a reprieve from being in this loop.


I believe he returns in time to the desert same age same body as then. he loops back starts again as he was then

He has all his fingers and the guns (its doesnt say he DOESNT have them)


at the end it says alot about him not changing, being too serious ,etc and I think that while he starts at the same point each time and meets the same people (same suzie, edie jake and Oy while the time period may be the same the actions are his own to do as he will. its upt o him to become more human, caring and thoughtfull of others.

[nearlyprescient]

sorry if this has already been suggested, but looking at plot descriptions for the comics, they seem a bit different.
could this indicate that they're not exactly part of the story as we know it, but depict events as they happened in other loops, loops in which Roland may or may not have picked up the Horn?

[barneyrfd]

Wow, just finished The Dark Tower and I've got to say I'm a little unhappy with the ending.

Left me feeling kind of pissed off to see the whole cycle would just be repeating itself after all the trials and tribulations Roland went through. Kind of unvalidated all the deaths of friends and loved ones throughout the story.

Don't get me wrong this is now my favorite book of all time, surpassing the mighty Lord of the Rings but I would have like to have seen a more fufilling ending for Roland.

Discussion???

[DoctorDodge]

This will probably be moved to a spoiler forum, but just in case:

I actually really like the ending. To be honest i thought it was brilliant. I think one of the main reasons is that Roland deserved what happened to him in some way, he had redeemed himself in some ways with his friends but he had still killed dozens, possibly hundreds of people in his quest for the tower, and for a very selfish reason, too.

I remember asking my dad what he thought of the ending (that's right i got my dad to read Stephen King, and for a bloke who doesn't like horror or read much i'm pretty pleased about that!), and he just said to me, "Well, i wasn't surprised, really. I mean what the hell was he going to find when he got to the top?" He was right: anything that gave us the answer would've seemed too dissapointing after ALL that buildup.

[barneyrfd]

Have to keep in mind Roland was helpless to not follow the path ka set for him so I don't think it was for selfish reasons on Roland's part. It never really said how long Roland lived but it was a loooong time and he suffered greatly and probably increasingly at the loss of each and every one of his friends and loved ones.

Also, most of the people that died or were killed associating with Roland were not really enjoying their lives as they were too much anyway and not too many of them did not agree to willingly to accompany or help Roland. Also, many people (innocent?) were killed in self defense like in the town in the 1st book.

I don't know, i suppose I would have hoped perhaps Roland could have found "the clearing at the end of the path" at the top of the tower.

[flaggwalkstheline]

Reread it carefully and u will notice that he has the horn which introduces the possibility that it could be different this time, It didnt click with me immedietly either because its presented in a rather un forceful manner

[divemaster]

I agree with DoctorDodge's analysis. I really liked the ending. I don't really see how it could have ended any differently and been in any way satisfying. He gets to the top of the tower and sees--what? A magic 8-ball? A genie with 3 wishes? A giant spider?

I didn't know how it was going to end until I got there. It did come as a surprise--and a pleasant one. I remember saying to myself "Way to go, Stevie! You really pulled it off!" (Honestly, I didn't think he had it in him to end the series in a way where I could say that.) That's reason #17 that King is such a great author.

[Darkthoughts]

Merging with the official loop thread ;) :thumbsup:

[Kidd Ikarus]

Just finished this last night. What an awesome series. I'm so glad I finally decided to read it!!

I have a couple of questions though . . . I haven't read the whole thread, so I cry pardon if this has been spoken about before, but these were two of the first things that popped into my mind after I finished . . . Here we go.

1. When Roland ends up back in the desert and has now restarted his quest . . . again, is his hand healed? Does he really go back to the beginning as a whole man? Or does he keep the injuries he's sustained thus far?

2. Is Roland the only one who resets and he meets different people along his path to the Tower? Or does everyone reset? The man in black, The Crimson King, Eddie, Jake, Susannah . . . everyone?

3. Kind of continuing off of the last question, if everyone does reset and the quest begins anew, does that mean the worlds, Mid-World in particular, reset as well? For example, are the Beams under attack and dying again? Will Roland and the tet have to save them again?

Thanks. These were the main questions that came to mind after I finished it.

[Bev Vincent]

1) Yes. He hasn't yet encountered the lobstrosities, so his hand is whole. If he chooses differently along the way, he might never encounter the lobstrosities.

2) I look at it this way -- this is a different level of the Tower, in the sense defined in Insomnia. A parallel reality where Roland made at least one different choice in his life -- the decision to stop and pick up the Horn of Eld. That means he's a slightly better person in a kharmic sense. Less focused on his goal to the exclusion of everything else around him, which means he's a tad less likely to sacrifice people without thought. That means there's a chance he won't let Jake fall. There's a chance that ka might provide him with a different ka-tet to complete his goal, since ka supplies what he needs, apparently.

However, since King believes that Roland's improvement is incremental and not monumental with each iteration, chances are that many things will be the same at this level of the Tower. When he finally "gets it right" (however you choose to define that), his final attempt might be substantially different, or it may only be different in one respect. (In my opinion, he needs to learn not to enter the Tower after he has saved it.)

3) Yes, that is his destiny, and he has always succeeded, no matter how many times he's tried in the past, or else everything would have collapsed. Regardless of how flawed he was, he's always saved the Tower. He just hasn't figured out how to save himself yet.

[ManOfWesternesse]

1. When Roland ends up back in the desert and has now restarted his quest . . . again, is his hand healed? Does he really go back to the beginning as a whole man? Or does he keep the injuries he's sustained thus far?

2. Is Roland the only one who resets and he meets different people along his path to the Tower? Or does everyone reset? The man in black, The Crimson King, Eddie, Jake, Susannah . . . everyone?

3. Kind of continuing off of the last question, if everyone does reset and the quest begins anew, does that mean the worlds, Mid-World in particular, reset as well? For example, are the Beams under attack and dying again? Will Roland and the tet have to save them again?

1. yes, I believe he goes back with his hand healed & whole etc..., but still 'older' (if we can call it that), and with more/different potential each loop.

2. For me, all the key characters 'reset', bit-players may differ?

3. Yes, again I think the Worlds and Beams essentially 'reset' as well.

[Kidd Ikarus]

Thank you. I've been reading a lot of the threads now and I'm happy to find that some of my thoughts or ideas aren't so far from some others and it just makes me feel . . . good.

God. I really loved these books. I'm sad for it to be over. I'm even sad for Roland. But I am optimistic . . . and I believe he will find salvation and after all 7 books, that is a comforting thought.

The ending really surprised me. I heard that 'it really sucked' or that it was the 'worst ending ever'. I could not be more pleased with how it ended. And the fact that it took me by surprise, adds bonus points to that. Like I said, I'm sad for more than one reason, but I'm so happy that I traveled with Roland on his life's quest.

[ManOfWesternesse]

...The ending really surprised me. I heard that 'it really sucked' or that it was the 'worst ending ever'. I could not be more pleased with how it ended. And the fact that it took me by surprise, adds bonus points to that. Like I said, I'm sad for more than one reason, but I'm so happy that I traveled with Roland on his life's quest.
Yeah, that sums it up well.
There was a lot of that 'ending' talk out there, some people still feel that way...
Me? - like yourself I loved it. I didn't know HOW he could possibly end it well, then I read what he'd written and thought it was perfect, still feel that way after a few re-reads.

[Letti]

He's always saved the Tower. He just hasn't figured out how to save himself yet.

It sumps up everything for me.
Short, beautiful and really meaningful.

[pathoftheturtle]

...I think the Worlds and Beams essentially 'reset' as well.Then, shouldn't it still be 1999?

[Kidd Ikarus]

Now that I've had a couple of days to think about everything since I finished, what King did is actually genius. Sort of like his own NeverEnding Story.

I mean, with the exception of the horn, you can continue to re-read these books over and over again . . . and every time you do (like i said with the exception of the horn, but i bet 90% of the fans could use their imaginations for this part) it's just a complete continuation of Roland's quest. And when you've read enough to satisfy yourself and you feel it's time for Roland to rest, you can read it through one last time, read Susannah in New York, leave out the Coda, and use your imagination and assumptions to give Roland the ending you feel he deserves.

It's brilliant.

[Matt]

He's always saved the Tower. He just hasn't figured out how to save himself yet.

It sumps up everything for me.
Short, beautiful and really meaningful.

I agree too, it really puts it together. I would take it one step further and say that The Tower is a manifestation of his obsession. Not that there isn't a real "Tower" but it's representation is based on what is in side of your heart.

[DoctorDodge]

He's always saved the Tower. He just hasn't figured out how to save himself yet.

It sumps up everything for me.
Short, beautiful and really meaningful.

I agree too, it really puts it together. I would take it one step further and say that The Tower is a manifestation of his obsession. Not that there isn't a real "Tower" but it's representation is based on what is in side of your heart.

I never thought of it that way Matt, but you do have a good point. It certainly explains how everything on the inside of the Tower is connected to Roland's life, and why it seems to be a lot bigger on the inside than the outside.

Which does make me wonder if the inside of the Tower would be different for everyone. Well, the Tower is connected to Gan itself in some way, so it's not that much of a stretch.

[Daeris]

For my part I don't think Roland makes loops... but spirals. It's not my idea but I am absolutely convinced. And if we are talking about a spiral there is no time travelling.

Here is a picture I made it's damn clumsy but that's how I see Roland's journey right now.
"D" means desert. :)

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/Lettike/helix1.jpg

So all his journeys seem very very similar (their beginnings and ends are specially) but all of them are different and new.



I agree with this thought, that Roland's loop is actually more of a spiral than a loop. In fact, it's all summed with the poignant number 19. Take a look at that number. If you look hard, you could argue that it's shaped like a man (the 1), getting sucked into a constant spiral (the 9).

Unfortunately, Roland (and none of the rest of his ka-tet) had ever considered the option of Roland being in a loop. If they had considered this, and focused on 19 the right way, they might have seen this in the number itself. What's strange is that in some ways, everyone does subconsiously know that Roland is looping/spiraling. Jake, Eddie, and Suze all know that the Tower is his one and only obsession, and he's cursed for it.

So, this is all about Roland. But why? That's the mega question.

Maybe it's because Roland doesn't actually believe in Gan (God), or he certainly doesn't prioritize him. Roland worships the icon (the Tower) more than the actual force behind the icon (Gan/Ka/God). I'm not 100% sure (only read through the series once), but don't the other ka-tet members believe in Gan/God... I know for sure that Susannah does. They are likely granted a form of serenity in the end because of their unselfishness, and faith in Gan. I think that Roland will loop through this cyclical curse for as long as his motives are selfish, instead of solely for serving Gan.

Pride comes before the fall. In Roland's case, Pride comes before the loop.

[Daeris]

Sorry - Duplicate Post.

[ManOfWesternesse]

...I think the Worlds and Beams essentially 'reset' as well.Then, shouldn't it still be 1999?

I'm not sure I get your point path?
I don't know if anything is this epic is tied to time that solidly. Time in what world? Time just seems so fluid in the DT that I hadn't ever thought of how that would affect the loops.

[barneyrfd]

For my part I don't think Roland makes loops... but spirals. It's not my idea but I am absolutely convinced. And if we are talking about a spiral there is no time travelling.

Here is a picture I made it's damn clumsy but that's how I see Roland's journey right now.
"D" means desert. :)

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/Lettike/helix1.jpg

So all his journeys seem very very similar (their beginnings and ends are specially) but all of them are different and new.



I agree with this thought, that Roland's loop is actually more of a spiral than a loop. In fact, it's all summed with the poignant number 19. Take a look at that number. If you look hard, you could argue that it's shaped like a man (the 1), getting sucked into a constant spiral (the 9).

Unfortunately, Roland (and none of the rest of his ka-tet) had ever considered the option of Roland being in a loop. If they had considered this, and focused on 19 the right way, they might have seen this in the number itself. What's strange is that in some ways, everyone does subconsiously know that Roland is looping/spiraling. Jake, Eddie, and Suze all know that the Tower is his one and only obsession, and he's cursed for it.

So, this is all about Roland. But why? That's the mega question.

Maybe it's because Roland doesn't actually believe in Gan (God), or he certainly doesn't prioritize him. Roland worships the icon (the Tower) more than the actual force behind the icon (Gan/Ka/God). I'm not 100% sure (only read through the series once), but don't the other ka-tet members believe in Gan/God... I know for sure that Susannah does. They are likely granted a form of serenity in the end because of their unselfishness, and faith in Gan. I think that Roland will loop through this cyclical curse for as long as his motives are selfish, instead of solely for serving Gan.

Pride comes before the fall. In Roland's case, Pride comes before the loop.


Roland is obviously the central character, the lightning rod for all that happens but is the story really "all about Roland"?

Here's an alternate take on things that makes it easier for me to accept the deaths of Eddie, Jake and Oy and the saga's ending.

Just suppose for a minute that Roland is who he is and does what he does so others that join his ka-tet to save the tower are able to grow and be fulfilled in their own lives.

Take a simplified look at each of the ka-tet of this loop or spiral.

Jake was not too happy with his life. He was ignored by his parents, didn't really lead a "normal" kid's life and really had no idea of his purpose.

Eddie was a junkie with no hope, no contribution to society and was steadily getting worse just like his brother Henry.

Odetta/Detta was a total schizo without the use of her legs and the "evil twin" was starting to win out. Not much future there.

Oy was shunned from his own kind because of his sense of self awareness and ability to "talk". He (I believe he was a he) is forced from his pack and made to fend for himself alone in his word.

Each of them are natural born gunslingers but don't know it and don't know how to do what they must do as gunslingers.

Along comes Roland who identifies to them they are gunslingers and gives each one of them a purpose for their lives (albeit in line with his quest to save the Dark Tower).

After an initial attempt to fight the notion, each comes to accept themselves as a gunslinger and the belief the dark tower must be saved. Through their adventures with Roland they achieve a level of fulfillment that they would never have achieved if left as they were.

Jake, Eddie and Oy die in the end. Jake and Eddie die without regret, arguably fulfilled knowing they did all they could to save the end of the world.

Oy dies after the tower is saved but he knows that his destiny is stay with Roland and make sure Roland makes it to the tower so the loop/spiral can happen again and other unborn gunslingers can be found and become part of a new ka-tet with Roland.

Susannah does not die because she must make the choice to leave Roland and go through the door to the alternate world to be reunited with an alternate Eddie and Jake and later Oy. This ensures that Eddie, Jake and Oy are rewarded for their noble sacrifices.

[pathoftheturtle]

He's always saved the Tower. He just hasn't figured out how to save himself yet.

It sumps up everything for me.
Short, beautiful and really meaningful.

I agree too, it really puts it together. I would take it one step further and say that The Tower is a manifestation of his obsession. Not that there isn't a real "Tower" but it's representation is based on what is in side of your heart.

I never thought of it that way Matt, but you do have a good point. It certainly explains how everything on the inside of the Tower is connected to Roland's life...I think it is because the fate of the universe is connected to Roland's life. I'm one of those who believes that the inside of the tower would look the same to anyone who managed to enter it. Roland really is that important.
...I think that Roland will loop through this cyclical curse for as long as his motives are selfish, instead of solely for serving Gan.
...Of course -- finding ways to force everyone to serve him in all things is the very essence of the noble, unselfish Gan. Good thing he is around to teach Roland a lesson. Clearly no hypocriscy in that.<_<


...I think the Worlds and Beams essentially 'reset' as well.Then, shouldn't it still be 1999?

I'm not sure I get your point path? ...Time in what world? ...Exactly. If time in all worlds resets with Roland, then every world, (this "real" one included,) would theoretically not move forward "until" the loop was resolved. What we have here is Roland moving from one reality, one version of Mid-World, to another. From this second world, there'd need to be more versions of Earth and all the places he visits, or else he would have run into his later self, before. It's not clear whether this new world is created by the loop, or if Gan sends Roland into an already existing world. What is clear is that 2 Rolands must mean at least 2 dimensions.

[a fan]

no he starts all the at the begining of his life we only know him from that point

[nearlyprescient]

in support of the spiral idea, it would give meaning to his 'loop' starting in the desert at least twice.
if it were a spiral, it wouldn't be hard to imagine that each time, a little less of his life is represented in the tower, and that each time, he reaches a higher level and starts the spiral from a slightly later point.

[nearlyprescient]

sorry about the double. no clue how that happened.

[Twilights Fire]

**
Disclaimer: :-)
I have not read all the threads on this forum, so bear with me if this has been asked/discussed already... If so, just point me towards the thread and I'll join the discussion :-)
**
Keystone World/Worlds Vs. Time

During my journey through the Dark Tower books I always had a idea lingering in my head that during several times made my head spin;

I've always thought of Roland's world as the same world Eddie/Suzannah/Jake come from... But in a different time...

Reading about radioactive fall-out from wars long forgotten,
Left over technology, cities , robots...

It feels like Roland is in the year 3000 or something...
And that the Tower/Beams have been crumbling since the "beginning of time" which could explain Roland's "the world has moved on".

[Kidd Ikarus]

I thought that a lot too. There were so many times during the quest that I looked at Roland's world as ours or as the same as Eddie/Jake/Susannah's just way in the future after society destroyed itself, built everything back up and then destroyed itself again . . .

But there is so much talk and views of other worlds and other times that that theory just became a little confusing. I still think deep inside that Mid-World may be a future of ours, but due to events in the books, that the chance that it is not, outweighs the thought.

[pathoftheturtle]

Good summation, Kidd. :clap:
It's like having a multiverse is supposed to be more meaningful than just having an inescapable cycle of collapse and rebuilding. The Dark Tower is hypothetically there at the center as a part of the real point of reality.
Hypothetically.<_<
**
Disclaimer: :-)
I have not read all the threads on this forum, so bear with me if this has been asked/discussed already... If so, just point me towards the thread and I'll join the discussion :-)
...Several people have discussed it. I'm not exactly sure where all, but here is a link to links to some points made by yours truly, for what that might be worth. http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showpost.php?p=391455&postcount=60

Good to have you here, TF. :D I hope that we'll have a chance to talk further.
Welcome. :)

[Twilights Fire]

Good to have you here, TF. :D I hope that we'll have a chance to talk further.
Welcome. :)

Thanks for the welcome :thumbsup:
I'm hoping for some good discussions in the future!
I might bring up a few things that have been claimed before but considering some threads are 128 pages long you have to give me a break :cyclops:

Still it looks like a nice community here and I'm interested in other people's views on the DT books and whatever else we will discuss here!

[Brainslinger]

I've always thought of Roland's world as the same world Eddie/Suzannah/Jake come from... But in a different time...


I wondered if Roland's world was supposed to be our future to begin with. I think it's still a possibility that the events there are a possibility for the various worlds* but I think it's clear it isn't literally the future world. Why? Because the Tower exists there as a tower. It doesn't exist anywhere else in that form.


*including the various worlds where America exists including, Tower keystone, Eddie, Susannah and Jake's world.

[pathoftheturtle]

...*including the various worlds where America exists including, Tower keystone, Eddie, Susannah and Jake's world.America doesn't exist on Tower keystone. Did you mean to say Keystone rose? Eddie clearly came from a different world than that keystone... but Susannah apparently IS from there. :orely:


...I think it's clear it isn't literally the future world. Why? Because the Tower exists there as a tower. It doesn't exist anywhere else in that form. ...So what? How would that prove that the worlds are separated by a fifth dimension rather than by the fourth? Couldn't it be that the form that the Tower exists in changes into a different one at some point in time?

(Dang, we need another new thread. :P )

[Brainslinger]

America doesn't exist on Tower keystone. Did you mean to say Keystone rose?


I meant the Keystone Earth. (I was thinking of Roland's 'Tower Keystone' world and made the finger equivalent of a slip of the toungue. ;) )




...I think it's clear it isn't literally the future world. Why? Because the Tower exists there as a tower. It doesn't exist anywhere else in that form. ...So what? How would that prove that the worlds are separated by a fifth dimension rather than by the fourth?
Heh, you lost me there...


Couldn't it be that the form that the Tower exists in changes into a different one at some point in time?

But that's a good point. So the Tower of the keystone world (the Rose) became the Dark Tower? I'm sure that's not the case. I just have this idea of the Tower as being eternal in it's specific form.


Eddie clearly came from a different world than that keystone... but Susannah apparently IS from there.

It's confusing because there is a Moses Carver in the Keystone world who knew a Susannah that went missing. However, our Susannah isn't from the keystone world. They mentioned that the station in which she was pushed isn't on the line it's stated to be (in the keystone world.)

Of course that begs the question, where is keystone Susannah? I have some ideas surrounding this but... as you say that's another thread.

[pathoftheturtle]

...I think it's clear it isn't literally the future world. Why? Because the Tower exists there as a tower. It doesn't exist anywhere else in that form. ...So what? How would that prove that the worlds are separated by a fifth dimension rather than by the fourth?
Heh, you lost me there...Time is the fourth dimension. If Roland's world were literally a future world, we might still say that it is a different world from the present world. Before I can accept or reject the logic of the idea that the Tower takes the form of a tower in that one world alone, I would need to have a better definition of what the word "world" refers to, and what it is that distinguishes any one "world" from the rest of the reality which it is connected to.


So the Tower of the keystone world (the Rose) became the Dark Tower?Maybe the dark tower that the Tet Corp. built over the Rose became the Dark Tower.:orely:


I'm sure that's not the case. I just have this idea of the Tower as being eternal in it's specific form.You're sure, or you just have an idea? Myself, I must say that I am still pretty unsure about of most of this. However, it seems that the Tower does not have a specific form. It has various forms. If you're saying that its form doesn't vary over the course of linear time, that implies that the kind of time in which its forms vary is solely the extra-linear time in which "parallel universes" theoretically exist. That may be true, but I still don't really know precisely why it even has various forms at all.


They mentioned that the station in which she was pushed isn't on the line it's stated to be (in the keystone world.)I forgot about that. Thanks. :)


Of course that begs the question, where is keystone Susannah? I have some ideas surrounding this but... as you say that's another thread.Actually, that's perhaps the only one of the points we've been talking about that maybe does fit this thread. I think that keystone Susannah might have gone with the Roland that is in the next iteration of his looping... and been surprised that the station in the world that the next SK lives in actually is on that line, contrary to her own experience.

[Brainslinger]

Actually, that's perhaps the only one of the points we've been talking about that maybe does fit this thread*. I think that keystone Susannah might have gone with the Roland that is in the next iteration of his looping...


*Fair enough. That was one of the things I thought too.

Another possibility I had in mind was that maybe those characters that appear in the Keystone world and other worlds like Moses Carver, Calvin Tower and co and the mafioso lads might have actually crossed worlds without knowing it. That seems unlikely though as there are enough geographical differences that should warn them... unless they somehow become incorporated into that world memory inclusive...

Or maybe just the Writer writing them into the Keystone world simply made them part of that world, including the incorporation of their memories. In that case they'd be the same characters, Susannah inclusive, although her memories would be from before that time having crossed over before hand...

I'm not convinced of these latter, just listing possibilities.


You're sure, or you just have an idea?

I'm quite sure of my idea? Heh.

I think it's mainly the image of this huge megalithic timeless structure rising out of the prim. (Although I'm aware 'timeless' and 'rising' are contradictory as the latter suggests a passage of time.) It just feels right to me that in the Tower keystone world the Tower is and always has been in the form of a tower.

I'm aware that there is a multiple dimension theory of Quantum Mechanics that dictates that new worlds are spawned all the time to incorporate every eventuality, so that means the Tower world could still be in the future and be a separate world, but I don't think the Dark Tower multiverse works quite on those lines (although it does seem to borrow from some stuff from that theory. I think it's a matter of degree really.)

[pathoftheturtle]

...Another possibility I had in mind was that maybe those characters that appear in the Keystone world and other worlds like Moses Carver, Calvin Tower and co and the mafioso lads might have actually crossed worlds without knowing it. That seems unlikely though as there are enough geographical differences that should warn them... unless they somehow become incorporated into that world memory inclusive...

Or maybe just the Writer writing them into the Keystone world simply made them part of that world, including the incorporation of their memories. In that case they'd be the same characters, Susannah inclusive, although her memories would be from before that time having crossed over before hand...

I'm not convinced of these latter, just listing possibilities. ...Well, yeah, that is off-topic. :lol:
Nonetheless, I have to quickly point out that there's some support for the idea of something like that in what happens to Jake's copy of Charlie the Choo-Choo in DT5.



You're sure, or you just have an idea?

I'm quite sure of my idea? Heh.<_< There's not much good in trying to reason with someone who just believes whatever he feels like. ;)


...It just feels right to me that in the Tower keystone world the Tower is and always has been in the form of a tower.Well, if that is true, then where was that Tower standing six billion years ago, before the planet was formed?:orely:


...I'm aware that there is a multiple dimension theory of Quantum Mechanics that dictates that new worlds are spawned all the time to incorporate every eventuality...but I don't think the Dark Tower multiverse works quite on those lines...That makes two of us. Even within RL quantum physics, there are differing theories. You don't have to get into all of that, however, to grasp the concept of multiple dimensions; that is basic geometry.


...the Tower world could still be in the future and be a separate world...It's more of a matter of simple diction. Just what does "a separate world" mean?
If events in the present world change the facts of Mid-World through the course of history, then that is one type of cosmological relationship.
All I'm saying is that the only way to logically show that the two "worlds" are not related in that way is by demonstrating that precisely that type of change does not and cannot occur.

[mdk101]

Which theory do you support?

a) Roland is on a loop with the same Ka-Tet up until his revelation / gift from Gan at the end of the series? (different this time, mayhap different :rose:) Does he come to a brand new Tull every time he passes through?

or

b) Roland is on a constantly differing journey each time he steps through his door at the top of the tower with an every changing Ka-Tet / drawing? Will he find an empty Tull this time around after killing the entire town?



__________________________________________________ _______

I wanted to make a thread dedicated specifically to this: is Roland's journeys to the tower a loop (the series replayed over and over) or is it a spiral with a whole new Ka-Tet everytime? I like the explanation of why he starts over in the desert, the one i've accepted at this point is that this is where Roland sees the Tower as becoming attainable (the short and dirty of it). And addressed at the bottom, how is time itself handled in the spiral/loops?

For the "Spiral"
The quote by Cort gives me mixed feelings that both in my opinion can support both theories:

"You 're the one who never changes...It'll be your damnation, boy. You'll wear out a hundred pairs of boots on your walk to hell."

I guess the "boots" can be a metaphor for shifting / changing Ka-Tets...but that may be over-analyzing it.

I like this spiral graphic to display the theory:


http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/Lettike/helix1.jpg




For the "Loop"
I have not had much time to think of many specific examples, but one argument I have against the loop that comes to mind is Roland's look into the pink ball that shows the impaled Billy Bumbler (Oy's death in TDT). This in particular is far behind the start of the loop/spiral to support there being a new Ka-Tet everytime.

The latter, to me, implies that Roland is stuck on a loop...keep in mind the quote by Vannay:

"Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to repeat it."





A second somewhat related thought: How is time handled in either situation?

Clearly the "Spiral" would imply the world's time would keep ticking along with Roland's...but what about the "Loop?"

If Roland is in either situation loop or spiral, we constantly hear throughout the book how old Roland must be to be from Gilead. We know that Roland is the constant no matter what situation, but say from the get-go in both situations:

How would this work out in the "Loop" situation...if Roland was on a loop this would imply time itself would be set back as well (Roland unaffected by the time warp itself), leaving the gap between Gilead's fall and Roland's "age" to be more reasonable than the guestimated thousands of years old. I guess this in itself is an argument for the "Spiral"...I am too tired to delve into this much further without rambling on too much :-/

[ola]

My first, general impression when I finished the series:

So...Roland has been repeating the same quest, with slightly different consequences to slightly different actions each time.

After this particular time however, he's earned(?) the Horn of Eld (i.e. taken the moment to pick it up at the battle, thanks to ka(?) changing its course).

To me this means he's been dropped back into an alternate, though similar reality. It has to be a whole alternate timeline in order for past events to be different (picking up the Horn). This can't be a loop of the exact same thing because of that important detail - and so then I guess it must be a spiral.

A spiral doesn't sound exactly right to me either. Is there a c.) neither of the above? :)

A random idea I had: maybe things would turn out very different if he had stopped the Hambry people/Rhea from killing Susan. Not necessarily stayed with her after that, but at least saved her - and his child with her. The Grapefruit is arguably evil, after all, and was the thing that sent him off on his obsessive Tower quest. He may have still saved the universe after that (his father already knew of the Tower anyway) but not gotten so possessed by the idea of entering it for himself. And if a non-evil child had continued the line of Eld, that may have contributed to protecting the Tower/Beams as well. Plus: if it wasn't all the worlds that were depending on Roland to go after the Tower, then his abandonment of Susan would have been an incredibly selfish act. Maybe even an evil one. And after the battle for Algul Siento, and saving King, there was really no reason to go to the Tower anyway!

In other words - the Horn could be completely symbolic. For the things left behind without a second thought...for the sake of the Tower. Maybe in some version of his quest he'll not abandon everything he loves for the sake of a symbol, and still be able to protect the stuff that holds the universes together.

[ola]

OK, so after all that blathering...I think this will probably get merged with another thread.

I have yet to crack this one (I'm worried I'll be reading it for quite a while!):
http://thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1778

Lot's about loops and spirals and time travel, etc...

[Darkthoughts]

Merged indeed! :D

There's even the same diagram a couple of posts up ;)

Get stuck in in here, mdk - it's a great thread :couple:

[reckless113]

Exactly, I see Roland's quest for the tower as an inherently selfless act, in the finest tradition of The Line of Eld, and Gunslingers. He never forgets the face of Steven Deschain, and there's a certain nobility about him which is at once barbaric, and civilized. I've always seen Roland, and gunslingers, for that matter, as knights of the highest order, of the finest character, training and courage. I do not think Roland pursues the tower because he wants to see it, although that's a bonus. I think he pursues the tower because he feels as though it's his obligation and duty. I think he would cry off of the tower in an instant if he felt he had some higher obligation which was less appealing to him.[/QUOTE]

I couldn't agree more!

[AcidBumbler]

Because it was the neatest way to finish.
Notice how sai King finished with the starting line?
He couldn't have done that if it had been starting from Mejis or Gilead.

[ToWeR JunkiE]

I have dwelt on this for WEEkS after reading the ending where you see hom once again in the desert.. only this time with his horn. this could signify hope that maybe he'll get it right this time and realize that he is NOT supposed to get to the tower. ok.. here is my thought, ready? you all sittin down?

I feel this series -the entire Roland/Gunslinger saga- is an incrediably brilliant play on the old saying.. it is the journey that matters, not the destination.. thing. Rolands obbsession with the REACHING the dark tower is is biggest flaw. it is the one vow he has not yet been able to keep, so he he is stuck in this loop, killing those he loves, giving up everything tht matters, cursed to repeat it all untill he finally realizes that all he needed to do was stop. that's it. just stop and realize that everything that was wrong with the beams, the roses, the tower, the universe was him. if he was capable of just turning the other cheek and walking away it would have all ended for him right there. he could and would have been happy. Ka takes care of itself, right?
and that is my humble opinion...

[pathoftheturtle]

:orely:
Ka is a wheel.
Roland failed to escape, but he is not alone.
Why are we here?
"What finally divides the men of today into two camps is not class but an attitude of mind--the spirit of movement. On the one hand there are those who simply wish to make the world a comfortable dwelling-place; on the other hand, those who can only conceive of it as a machine for progress -- or better, an organism that is progressing."

-- Teilhard de Chardin,

The Future of Man

[jayson]

:orely:
Ka is a wheel.
Roland failed to escape, but he is not alone.


i've used these lyrics several times, both in harrison themes and roland themes. they're certainly apt concerning my reading of roland's tale.


"There'll come a time when most of us return here
Brought back by our desire to be, a perfect entity
Living through a million years of crying
Until youve realized the art of dying"

- George Harrison, "Art of Dying"

on some levels, roland's quest may not be even remotely unique. it all depends on how you look at it. it's all in the mind. :orely:

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, art is highly subjective. What King wrote was itself partly conditioned by his expectations of our expectations, I expect. :P Furthermore, I think it's quite possible that he had no single point or message in mind, anyway. So, posting here is not even as simple as trying to describe a face. It's more like trying to describe a photo taken through a prismatic lens of a painting of a face in a mirror.

For the record, I do not totally subscribe to the teleology of Teilhard de Chardin. It is good, however, as an example of an attempt. Again, it's just a question: Why are we here?

I certainly did not mean to discount your input, ToWeR JunkiE. It's great that you have given some thought to the meaning of the series, and I'm glad that you decided to join this website. You'll find that many here largely agree with your assessment. In fact, few of our members are as quixotic as I am. Nonetheless, I have dwelt on the ending for YEARS now, and at this point my opinion is that if SK only wanted to say that people should just try to enjoy what they can get, because the truth of the universe is not only unknown but unknowable, then my final word on TDT will be that he simply did not manage to express this as well as Woody Allen has.

[jayres54]

Maybe Roland's time is in the year 3000 like previously stated. Maybe there was some kind of nuclear war. But I think that his world is connected to the Stand. Roland's world could be a world that evolved from the remnants of Boulder free zone. One of the founders of the free zone commitee (Glenn Bateman) talks about people reverting to magic and worshiping things like the sun and whatnot when an enlightened civilization dissapears. Roland's society and world seem like a world regressed with remnants of technology surrounding it. The wastelands could be leftovers from the nuclear explosion caused by God to destroy Flagg's society. The places and people could have been different but it could be a different version of that sequence of events. I see many connections between the Stand being the beginning of Roland's world. I am sure of one thing though, throughout the sets of the multiverse, every outcome and every connection are invariably achieved and being played out. King's writings are just the ones he tells about. So if you have a problem with the way he brought some things about, know that in a world other than these, there is a completely different set of circumstances playing out.

[pathoftheturtle]

If so, then there must be a world in which the Tower is destroyed. That would mean that the Multiverse does not exist.

[tachibana_ichiro_sukeomi]

One simple question..
why does he have to restart the loop from the middle of the desert? Why from there


I think there's a simple answer to the original question of this thread. I think he had to return to the desert in the first book because in the keystone world, Stephen King is the dark tower and Roland is bound to his books. He'll always have to repeat the journey because the actual truth is he's a fictional character, and someone will always be reading his story. I think the 'Dark Tower' gave roland the horn, not so much to reasure Roland that there may be an end to his journey, but to give us (the readers) a ray of hope for Roland so we won't be as outraged and horrified by the truth.

[Letti]

One simple question..
why does he have to restart the loop from the middle of the desert? Why from there


I think there's a simple answer to the original question of this thread. I think he had to return to the desert in the first book because in the keystone world, Stephen King is the dark tower and Roland is bound to his books. He'll always have to repeat the journey because the actual truth is he's a fictional character, and someone will always be reading his story. I think the 'Dark Tower' gave roland the horn, not so much to reasure Roland that there may be an end to his journey, but to give us (the readers) a ray of hope for Roland so we won't be as outraged and horrified by the truth.

Roland is not a fictional character. I don't say it because I am an insane DT junkie I say it because the books don't tell us that he is a fictional character. I don't interpret the appearance of SK in the story this way at all.

[tachibana_ichiro_sukeomi]

Ouch


:shoot:

[Wuducynn]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh. :orely:

[Jean]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh. :orely:
No, really, he is not, it's as Nikolett said. Umney is a fictional character within the context of his story, but Roland isn't within his, not much more so than if it was Churchill described by Sir Martin Gilbert, his biographer. The relation between Roland and King is more complex because King-in-the-story for some time doesn't suspect he is not writing about a fictional character, and also by the mutual influence of the Dark Tower (where both the inspiration and existence come from) and what the storyteller writes in his particular universe, but, being complex, it still exists in the book as a relationship between two real, non-fictional people.

[Wuducynn]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh. :orely:
No, really, he is not, it's as Nikolett said. Umney is a fictional character within the context of his story, but Roland isn't within his, not much more so than if it was Churchill described by Sir Martin Gilbert, his biographer. The relation between Roland and King is more complex because King-in-the-story for some time doesn't suspect he is not writing about a fictional character, and also by the mutual influence of the Dark Tower (where both the inspiration and existence come from) and what the storyteller writes in his particular universe, but, being complex, it still exists in the book as a relationship between two real, non-fictional people.

I see, yes within the story he is not a fictional character. Gotcha.

[Letti]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh. :orely:

There were some sentences (and a certain explanation) coming after this.

Thanks Jean.

[Jean]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bearmood_inlove.gif

[Wuducynn]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh. :orely:

There were some sentences (and a certain explanation) coming after this.

Thanks Jean.


It's more fun to just ignore all that and focus on something I can get argumentative about though.

[Letti]

Roland is not a fictional character.

Uh. :orely:

There were some sentences (and a certain explanation) coming after this.

Thanks Jean.


It's more fun to just ignore all that and focus on something I can get argumentative about though.

You won. :)

[flaggwalkstheline]

One simple question..
why does he have to restart the loop from the middle of the desert? Why from there


I think there's a simple answer to the original question of this thread. I think he had to return to the desert in the first book because in the keystone world, Stephen King is the dark tower and Roland is bound to his books. He'll always have to repeat the journey because the actual truth is he's a fictional character, and someone will always be reading his story. I think the 'Dark Tower' gave roland the horn, not so much to reasure Roland that there may be an end to his journey, but to give us (the readers) a ray of hope for Roland so we won't be as outraged and horrified by the truth.

Roland is not a fictional character. I don't say it because I am an insane DT junkie I say it because the books don't tell us that he is a fictional character. I don't interpret the appearance of SK in the story this way at all.

Part of whats the series so great is the fact that by the end of it, reality and fiction have been totally blended and blurred together

[Corwin]

Well, for me, back when it was rumored that the completion of the Dark Tower was the completion of King's writings, I thought it was some cosmic F-You to the reader for waiting all those years and reading all those words just to get plunked back into the beginning of the first book.
I of course recovered from that theory, and now just figure that if Roland's fate is to take another spin on the karmic wheel, he should be returned to the same place we are. Everything before that point either doesn't matter or doesn't affect his outcome significantly.
Either way, I'm 5/7th of the way through the 3rd reading.

[lisaki]

I think there's a simple answer to the original question of this thread. I think he had to return to the desert in the first book because in the keystone world, Stephen King is the dark tower and Roland is bound to his books. He'll always have to repeat the journey because the actual truth is he's a fictional character, and someone will always be reading his story. I think the 'Dark Tower' gave roland the horn, not so much to reasure Roland that there may be an end to his journey, but to give us (the readers) a ray of hope for Roland so we won't be as outraged and horrified by the truth.
That's close to what I believe.
That's what I wrote in the ending thread:

It'd make sense much more to me, if we hadn't given the hope that the next time maybe would be the last, with the horn thing. I'd like to see Roland as a man who holds the Tower and thus the universes safe, by living the same journey again and again. Roland could be a creature that holds everything together. No salvation for him... but only for the Tower and the universes.

That would make sense to me for another reason, also. This is a story about stories. When I finish the last book, someone somewhere in the world is picking the "gunslinger" to read for the first time, and Roland has to start his journey all over again. That's why he had to start from the desert. That's where the "Gunslinger" started. He keeps his own little universe safe, doing this. His universe which is nothing more than 7 books (and who are we to know that our universe is bigger or more important than that?). When people stop reading the DT series, Roland's journey will end. The Beams will break. The Tower will fall. That little universe will be destroyed and forgotten for ever.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I think there's a simple answer to the original question of this thread. I think he had to return to the desert in the first book because in the keystone world, Stephen King is the dark tower and Roland is bound to his books. He'll always have to repeat the journey because the actual truth is he's a fictional character, and someone will always be reading his story. I think the 'Dark Tower' gave roland the horn, not so much to reasure Roland that there may be an end to his journey, but to give us (the readers) a ray of hope for Roland so we won't be as outraged and horrified by the truth.
That's close to what I believe.
That's what I wrote in the ending thread:

It'd make sense much more to me, if we hadn't given the hope that the next time maybe would be the last, with the horn thing. I'd like to see Roland as a man who holds the Tower and thus the universes safe, by living the same journey again and again. Roland could be a creature that holds everything together. No salvation for him... but only for the Tower and the universes.

That would make sense to me for another reason, also. This is a story about stories. When I finish the last book, someone somewhere in the world is picking the "gunslinger" to read for the first time, and Roland has to start his journey all over again. That's why he had to start from the desert. That's where the "Gunslinger" started. He keeps his own little universe safe, doing this. His universe which is nothing more than 7 books (and who are we to know that our universe is bigger or more important than that?). When people stop reading the DT series, Roland's journey will end. The Beams will break. The Tower will fall. That little universe will be destroyed and forgotten for ever.


Very intriguing idea. Reminds me of the Neverending Story (one of my favorite books and movies of all time).

"If you have never spent whole afternoons with burning ears and rumpled hair, forgetting the world around you over a book, forgetting cold and hunger. If you have never read secretly under the bedclothes with a flashlight, because your father or mother or some other well-meaning person has switched off the lamp on the plausible ground that it was time to sleep because you had to get up so early.
"If you have never wept bitter tears because a wonderful story has come to an end and you must take your leave of the characters with whom you have shared so many adventures, whom you have loved and admired, for whom you have hoped and feared, and without whose company life seems empty and meaningless.
"If such things have not been part of your own experience, you probably won’t understand what Bastian did next."

[lisaki]

one of my favorite books and movies of all time
mine too :)

[stone, rose, unfound door]

I've always thought Roland had to start it all back from the desert because the desert is a sort of introduction to meeting Jake. After he meets Jake, he has to decide not to let him fall to his death. I thought that was his biggest mistake and that was the main thing the Tower wanted him to do right.

[Brice]

So could he have redeemed himself if he had shot Jake at the way station or thrown him to the slow mutants to avoid Jake falling? :cyclops:

[Jean]

So could he have redeemed himself if he had shot Jake at the way station or thrown him to the slow mutants to avoid Jake falling? :cyclops:
He had already done that, in the past loops.

(By the way, now I hope he'll repair Shardik instead of killing him. Giant bears are no less scarce than gunslingers, I assure you.)

[Bumbler19]

If so, then there must be a world in which the Tower is destroyed. That would mean that the Multiverse does not exist.

pwned

(By the way, now I hope he'll repair Shardik instead of killing him. Giant bears are no less scarce than gunslingers, I assure you.)

What significant part do you think Shardik could have played? he couldn't very well have joined them on their journey. Maybe Shardik could have done some repairing of the beam from his location.... being a guardian and all. If a guardian was working effectively the story may have not been as dramatic or long. Then again, maybe more than he would need to be working to have a significant enough impact on the intact of the beam.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

If so, then there must be a world in which the Tower is destroyed. That would mean that the Multiverse does not exist.

pwned

(By the way, now I hope he'll repair Shardik instead of killing him. Giant bears are no less scarce than gunslingers, I assure you.)

What significant part do you think Shardik could have played? he couldn't very well have joined them on their journey. Maybe Shardik could have done some repairing of the beam from his location.... being a guardian and all. If a guardian was working effectively the story may have not been as dramatic or long. Then again, maybe more than he would need to be working to have a significant enough impact on the intact of the beam.

I think you both have a very good point here: if Roland had repaired Shardik, there's no obvious reason for Shardik not to take care of the Beam. Maybe Shardik was mad because of a sequence of events that had happened previously and that were illogical (killing a kid, making a man fall to his death on the A-train tracks, though I'm not too sure about that one).
Still, I believe Jake is not THE key to salvation but one in a multiple set of keys Roland didn't get in the series we read.

[Brice]

I think his salvation and damnation are maybe one and the same.

[Jean]

Never expected my obviously jocular Shardik statement to provoke any kind of discussion... and Brice, as an old-fashioned bear I believe that salvation and damnation, his or anybody's, are very different, dialectics or no dialectics.

[Sickrose]

I think the horn of Eld shows the past had been different but I dont necessarily think it's only Roland who has to change before his loop ends. I think the world isnt ready. At the end of the series the world is still a mess - another Crimson king or Farson could come along therefore presenting another threat to the Dark Tower.

The world has to change as well to create a safe environment for the Tower.

[pathoftheturtle]

*sigh* And what're the chances of that?

Didn't the Tower create the world, its environment? Why isn't all safe to begin with?

Seems that things are just perpetually glum, no matter what.

[Brice]

... and Brice, as an old-fashioned bear I believe that salvation and damnation, his or anybody's, are very different, dialectics or no dialectics.

I'm old fashioned in many ways too, but I feel they are often precisely the same.

[Letti]

... and Brice, as an old-fashioned bear I believe that salvation and damnation, his or anybody's, are very different, dialectics or no dialectics.

I'm old fashioned in many ways too, but I feel they are often precisely the same.

There is a lot in what you say.
Sometimes the worst is the best for the one.

[Brice]

:rose: yes

[stone, rose, unfound door]

Then is Roland saved from death by starting on the loop for eternity and damned by having to start it all over again?
Would that be all there is to it or do you see something more profound in the series?

[Jean]

"Saved from death" does not mean salvation. It depends, of course, on what you mean by "death"; if it is "death" like "end of human earthly existence", then being "saved" from it means the worst of damnation, eternal hell of repetitions.

[BROWNINGS CHILDE]

Who is to say that Roland would not die this time around?

[Jean]

Not me, anyway.

[bartonthegreat]

19GFY

[stone, rose, unfound door]

"Saved from death" does not mean salvation. It depends, of course, on what you mean by "death"; if it is "death" like "end of human earthly existence", then being "saved" from it means the worst of damnation, eternal hell of repetitions.

That's precisely why I don't understand how Brice can speak of salvation and damnation being one and the same. Starting all over again until the end of time is the worst thing that could happen to someone, as far as I know. I completely agree with you on this.

[pathoftheturtle]

... and Brice, as an old-fashioned bear I believe that salvation and damnation, his or anybody's, are very different, dialectics or no dialectics.

I'm old fashioned in many ways too, but I feel they are often precisely the same.

There is a lot in what you say.
Sometimes the worst is the best for the one.I think that "sometimes" is the key word there. Can you see the big picture? Do you believe that there is one to see?

[Letti]

"Saved from death" does not mean salvation. It depends, of course, on what you mean by "death"; if it is "death" like "end of human earthly existence", then being "saved" from it means the worst of damnation, eternal hell of repetitions.

That's precisely why I don't understand how Brice can speak of salvation and damnation being one and the same. Starting all over again until the end of time is the worst thing that could happen to someone, as far as I know. I completely agree with you on this.

Starting all over again until the end of time?
For my part I don't think he needs to do it for that long. I think he is very close to get out of the loops but he does need some more turns.
I feel Roland is damned and saved but mostly saved.

[Mark]

I believe Roland is damned until he gets right everything that went wrong. I think each time he starts over, he aquires an item that was lost to him previously, for example, the item we saw was the horn, but how do you know that the item we read about (His default items, as we may call them) were there on his previous journeys? He may have only had 1 gun for the journey previous to the one we read about. I believe he will be saved when he no longer strives for the tower.

Throughout the books we see that he wants to reach The Tower, but I personally can't remember why, other than to save the beams, but he doesn't need to reach The Tower to save the beams. So many people have died for him to reach his Tower, my opinion is that, when he stops allowing people to die for him to reach The Tower, or when he realises The Tower only causes him pain and misery, he will find salvation.

Anyway:
I believe he returns to the desert because I'm sure it says in the book that it's where his desire to really drive for The Tower begins. It is also the beginning of his new Ka-Tet, not just Jake, Eddie, Susannah and Oy, but Us as a Ka-Tet, we are one of many, reading his journey, we follow him to the end, we see him commit the sins he commits, obviously we have no way to stop him from doing so, but of course, perhaps in a new line, things will be different, perhaps, in another strand of the multiverse there are people reading another loop, mayhap the one with his salvation. I don't know, I know it's only fiction but the theory of the Multiverse is older than The Dark Tower Series, surely.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

If I'm not mistaken, he wanted to know what was inside the Tower. That was his only desire: to get there, see what's inside and perhaps take over.

[Mark]

If I'm not mistaken, he wanted to know what was inside the Tower. That was his only desire: to get there, see what's inside and perhaps take over.

Well then if this is the case, his salvation comes when he learns to forget about it and live a life without The Tower. Which poses the question, can he ever be saved? But that is for a different thread, not this.

[Letti]

Can he ever be saved? But that is for a different thread, not this.

What an interesting question!
I feel he can be saved. But he is the only person who can save himself.
But that's how usually life works. Many people can try to help the one but if they don't try to get out of the hole they are going to fail again and again.

[pathoftheturtle]

...I believe he returns to the desert because I'm sure it says in the book that it's where his desire to really drive for The Tower begins. ...
What it seemed to be saying was not that he was sent back in time to that point because that was the point at which he began to feel that he actually could reach the tower, but rather that that was the point at which he began to feel that he actually could reach the tower because he had been sent back in time to that point.

Look, here's my question; do you think that other people who do not quest for the Dark Tower, who never have quested for the tower, or anything like that, are all saved? Is "salvation" the same as normalcy? Is that your point?

[Brice]

That's funny....I don't think we can save ourselves. I think we can only maybe save each other a little.

[Mark]

That's funny....I don't think we can save ourselves. I think we can only maybe save each other a little.

I agree with this in a case like Rolands. His desire for The Tower governs his life. He wouldn't ever be able to just give it up I don't think. I think maybe it's down to other people to tell him to stop this quest, in order for him to be saved. That, or shoot him in his sleep...

[stone, rose, unfound door]

...I believe he returns to the desert because I'm sure it says in the book that it's where his desire to really drive for The Tower begins. ...
What it seemed to be saying was not that he was sent back in time to that point because that was the point at which he began to feel that he actually could reach the tower, but rather that that was the point at which he began to feel that he actually could reach the tower because he had been sent back in time to that point.

Look, here's my question; do you think that other people who do not quest for the Dark Tower, who never have quested for the tower, or anything like that, are all saved? Is "salvation" the same as normalcy? Is that your point?

I don't think salvation is the same as normalcy. People who don't look for the Tower may or may not be saved. I very much think they were not since "the world has moved on" and a lot of the people who used to live in Mid-Word have died. But this is still an entirely different question in my opinion. It refers to the judeo-christianic idea of being saved, which I think quite anachronistic if we're talking about the DT world.
It also seems obvious that people have gone in search of the Tower and we don't know if one of them has found it and made it theirs. This could be interesting.
Roland is like a drug addict so of course he can't save himself, which is surely why he had to meet a new ka-tet and be their dinh. Being stuck in an everlasting loop does not feel like being saved to me. First, we'd have to consider what he could be saved from. This I don't know.

[pathoftheturtle]

... First, we'd have to consider what he could be saved from. ...Absolutely. Just trying to understand, outlooks that I find really foreign to my own understanding of Roland, Gan, and TDT. However, I did not really intend for that question of mine to refer to Judeo-Christian salvation.

More confusion, tho: What do you mean, when you say that "he had to meet a new ka-tet"? First, we'd need to consider who or what determines what he has to do. (Stephen King, perhaps?)

[stone, rose, unfound door]

I think you're right here. It's just my assumption he had to meet people to form a bond that would show him how badly he craved for the Tower. I see him as an addict and addicts usually understand that they are addicted to something only after someone else has pointed it out, which is why I thought he needed to meet people who would become his ka-tet.
I referred to judeo-christian salvation because the various answers I read to the question of Roland being saved mostly reminded me of judeo-christian salvation. This is just my opinion, though and I may be wrong.
I guess we could create a thread entitled "What could Roland be saved from?" to see what people think on the subject :)

[pathoftheturtle]

Oh, I see. You were only opining that if he had not gotten a new ka-tet, then he would not be able to cry off from the Tower. The problem I see is that, by luck or whatever, he in fact did get a new ka-tet, yet he did not cry off. That's why I feel that I may be missing your point.


... I guess we could create a thread entitled "What could Roland be saved from?" to see what people think on the subject :)Well, y'know, we do already have the thread What would Roland's salvation be? (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=4251) This thread is basically the thread about the loop, and I think that it's main topic is simply "What does the loop mean?" ...so it would fit to ask here if Roland "needs" to be saved from the loop.
Like you said yourself --
Being stuck in an everlasting loop does not feel like being saved to me.Is Gan unjustly victimizing Roland?
Many prefer to believe that Gan is in fact justly disciplining him. The question, then, would be, "For what?" What exactly is wrong with Roland, that Gan decided that looping that way is the best thing for him? If we assume that what Roland "needs" to be saved from is himself, then what is it about him that he "needs to be saved" from?
I don't know, at that point we might indeed have a question better suited to another thread. Generally, though, it seems to me that very many people feel that the answer is just that he needs to give up his desire to meet Gan. This upsets me. I've been arguing on these boards against that very idea for many years now. It seems vaguely anti-religious, and I don't think that it's true; I don't think that it is what King meant to express. Indeed, the fact that it is such a popular theory has led me to believe that his writing was rather unsuccessful. If he wanted to say that religious belief can be good, but religious fanaticism is not, then I think that he should have found better ways to illustrate what the difference is. Don't get me wrong, I certainly don't think that Roland Deschain has no flaws. I just don't see what's wrong with seeking God. If we're saying that Roland "should" escape from the loop by no longer trying to quest for the Tower, then what "should" he do instead? Become an agnostic? Is SK is trying to preach agnosticism to us?
Looking at the book which King wrote next after DT7, The Colorado Kid, one might get the idea that the real point of the loop was to say that "There are some things that man was not meant to know," but I've never really been very comfortable with that old saw, either. I do favor religious faith, but I believe that thoughtless or uninformed faith is worse (and, really, more dangerous) than none at all. I, for one, do believe that it is possible for one to come into communion with God, and that it is positive to seek that, by all means.

Therefore, what I would rather focus on in this thread are alternate theories about the loop's meaning, such as the following, which I was never really pleased to have had merged into Roland: Saved or Damned? (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=612) --

My interpretation is that the Tower was saved. We know after Roland's ka-tet saves the Bear and Turtle beams, all the other beams started to rework themselves back into existence. ...Even if we do accept that claim, there are still some problems with the conclusion that the Tower was saved. At some point in the future, the Beams might be attacked again. I figure that if he did reach the top, one of Roland’s first questions would be “How could You have allowed this to happen, and is there any way to prevent further mass destruction?”

I think that the question of “If it was really in danger why wouldn't it just let him help?” is a valid one. If time itself is cycling, then none of his past efforts would seem to matter, at all. It would mean that the Tower is always secure and the only real progress that the gunslinger is making is internal. We could conclude further that thinnies are basically natural, and that every invasion of supernatural beings ever seen in SK’s worlds was simply meant to be. Is all peril an illusion?

There are no real answers in the books, but neither does the series truly imply that Gan is just a fraud. To really understand would be literally a whole other story. To me, though, that’s fine, and it really proves nothing more than that whatever God is, Stephen King is not Him.

We can only speculate. I imagine that the timeline which Roland enters next existed already. He is destined to save another version of the Dark Tower on another level of the multiverse, as part of an ongoing struggle against oblivion.
This would mean that at the same time that Gan is forcing him to grow personally, Roland is helping the Tower to function, and improving conditions everywhere.

[pathoftheturtle]

In short, what I think that the loop really represents is simply the tragedy of the fact that mortals can never achieve perfection, exacerbated by the truth that we can never stop trying. Roland, like every honorable person, shares the absurd dilemna of Sisyphus.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

I guess I didn't make my point clear. The analogy I made between Roland and a drug addict is that you need someone else to point out the problem, which does not mean this is enough to solve it since solving a problem implies that the person who has said problem wants to solve it. It seems obvious to me Roland doesn't want to get over his addiction to the Tower so he can't be saved, if that's really what we want to say, from the loop if he doesn't give up on his addiction. Anyway, this may be wrong since I don't really agree with the whole salvation/damnation theory. I quite like your theory that man can't achieve perfection but still keeps on trying to achieve it. It fits Roland perfectly as far as I know. I don't think the horn is the answer to his loop (or spiral as Bev Vincent called it in some other thread) either.
I always felt Roland's starting all over again was samsara but the real question is: what bad deeds did he do in his past lives for him to still not have attained nirvana? This is a question I have no answer to.
Thanks for the thread about the loop :)
I'll think about your theory and try to come up with good enough answers if I can!

[pathoftheturtle]

If Roland's quest is in fact an ascending spiral rather than a closed loop, then it may be his solution, rather than his problem.

[Mark]

I've just had a thought then, maybe, Roland doesn't reach the top of the Tower because what is at the top of the Tower is so horrible that the Tower spares him? Maybe the Tower is actually saving him?

[stone, rose, unfound door]

If Roland's quest is in fact an ascending spiral rather than a closed loop, then it may be his solution, rather than his problem.

What would be his solution then? I like the "spiral" idea because it beats Ka by getting to an end, a "resolution". Then you can stop being depressed about it ;)

[pathoftheturtle]

lol, thanks. :) I don't understand your question, tho. What is it that you're trying to ask? I said that if his quest is a spiral, then it (his quest) might be his solution. You know what his quest is, right? To climb the Tower. If that pursuit is positive, then it's somewhat paradoxical to treat it as an addiction. Fairly typical in Buddhism, but troubling without clear context.
I've just had a thought then, maybe, Roland doesn't reach the top of the Tower because what is at the top of the Tower is so horrible that the Tower spares him? Maybe the Tower is actually saving him?Glad to see that you're still participating, Mark. That's quite interesting. It involves an odd mix of optimism and pessimism, but, after all, those are pretty characteristic of stories by King. :orely:

[stone, rose, unfound door]

The question may sound dumb but I usually think of solutions to problems, not to people. I know what his quest is but I don't think that's a solution to anything. I'd rather say getting on top of the Tower and not getting started on his journey again when reaching the top is his conclusion because then he gets to an end, but I don't understand how it could be his solution because it doesn't solve problems. That's why I asked you what his solution might be.

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, first, in no way did I mean to call your question dumb.
You may be right that getting to the top would not solve any problems, but, for my part, I think that it might. Sorry to keep repeating myself, but since you ask, what I’m talking about is still this --


My interpretation is that the Tower was saved. We know after Roland's ka-tet saves the Bear and Turtle beams, all the other beams started to rework themselves back into existence. ...Even if we do accept that claim, there are still some problems with the conclusion that the Tower was saved. At some point in the future, the Beams might be attacked again. I figure that if he did reach the top, one of Roland’s first questions would be “How could You have allowed this to happen, and is there any way to prevent further mass destruction?”

[Letti]

That's funny....I don't think we can save ourselves. I think we can only maybe save each other a little.

How can you save someone a little? 'Save' is a very.. definite word or verb. Like 'kill'. You can't kill anyone a little. You kill someone or you don't kill them but there is no middle way.

[Brice]

That's funny....I don't think we can save ourselves. I think we can only maybe save each other a little.

How can you save someone a little? 'Save' is a very.. definite word or verb. Like 'kill'. You can't kill anyone a little. You kill someone or you don't kill them but there is no middle way.


Oh, you can't ever entirely save anyone, IMO. You can only do a little to put them on their way.

You can also kill people a little. If what you do leads them to their death then you've killed them even if not entirely all at once.

The same applies to salvation. It's a slow process if you ask me.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

Well, first, in no way did I mean to call your question dumb.
You may be right that getting to the top would not solve any problems, but, for my part, I think that it might. Sorry to keep repeating myself, but since you ask, what I’m talking about is still this --


My interpretation is that the Tower was saved. We know after Roland's ka-tet saves the Bear and Turtle beams, all the other beams started to rework themselves back into existence. ...Even if we do accept that claim, there are still some problems with the conclusion that the Tower was saved. At some point in the future, the Beams might be attacked again. I figure that if he did reach the top, one of Roland’s first questions would be “How could You have allowed this to happen, and is there any way to prevent further mass destruction?”

It's alright, I wasn't sure you were still talking about this one.

[Mark]

My interpretation is that the Tower was saved. We know after Roland's ka-tet saves the Bear and Turtle beams, all the other beams started to rework themselves back into existence. ...
Even if we do accept that claim, there are still some problems with the conclusion that the Tower was saved. At some point in the future, the Beams might be attacked again. I figure that if he did reach the top, one of Roland’s first questions would be “How could You have allowed this to happen, and is there any way to prevent further mass destruction?”

My interpritation of what I highlighted may be off from what you meant, but, wouldn't that mean that in your belief someone with a massive amount of power resided at the top? My personal belief is more that The Tower is similar to a plug hole, in a bath. The bath is full, but when you take the plug out, the water goes away. The Plug doesn't create the water, it doesn't stop bad things happening to itself, like someone pulling the plug, it just stops the water leaving the bath. Obviously destroying The Tower isn't as easy as pulling a plug, but hopefully you understand what I mean.

[pathoftheturtle]

When it comes to The Dark Tower, I don't really know for sure. If the Tower is headless, or if Gan exists, and is really good, but not powerful enough to stop the Red, then I guess that the universe is doomed. If that is the case, then I suppose that Roland learning it would not do any good. It takes a lot of courage to face the possibility of that. On the other hand, an all-powerful God might have good reason for aloofness, but if Gan cannot protect us in the long run, anyway, is it responsible to not ask for help? If Gan doesn't know how to best run creation, if this is just a fallible being, how can he know that there is no way? And if there is no conscious being there at all, then I think that point (that it might be good to know it) goes double.

[Mark]

When it comes to The Dark Tower, I don't really know for sure. If the Tower is headless, or if Gan exists, and is really good, but not powerful enough to stop the Red, then I guess that the universe is doomed. If that is the case, then I suppose that Roland learning it would not do any good. It takes a lot of courage to face the possibility of that. On the other hand, an all-powerful God might have good reason for aloofness, but if Gan cannot protect us in the long run, anyway, is it responsible to not ask for help? If Gan doesn't know how to best run creation, if this is just a fallible being, how can he know that there is no way? And if there is no conscious being there at all, then I think that point (that it might be good to know it) goes double.

I don't quite understand how your point goes double if there is no being to ask for help.

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

Roland is a part of The Tower, just as we all are supposed to be. Roland is an 'Old Timer' and more importantly, The Protector of The Tower. The Dark Tower, or Gan, uses him to keep itself at good defense against evil. The Crimson King is a filter for all the evil in existence. He seeks out evil and uses it for his own purpose, but ultimately fails. TCK and all his followers worked not for each other but their own benefit, where as Roland and the good guys work for one another, and anyone else they can save. In the end, it is not Roland who kills all the bad guys with his guns, it is those who've helped him along the way. Making sure Roland gets to The Tower insures the continuation of the cycle. The horn at the end may be something to remind him of the tower, perhaps it sounds off the same noise the roses did right before he goes through the doors. If he can remember the tower, he might get a chance to lead his own life the way he sees fit rather than climbing the stairs again. He might be able to change a lot more things if he re-tracks his journey with knowledge of what lies at the top room of The Dark Tower.

[Letti]

That's funny....I don't think we can save ourselves. I think we can only maybe save each other a little.

How can you save someone a little? 'Save' is a very.. definite word or verb. Like 'kill'. You can't kill anyone a little. You kill someone or you don't kill them but there is no middle way.


Oh, you can't ever entirely save anyone, IMO. You can only do a little to put them on their way.

You can also kill people a little. If what you do leads them to their death then you've killed them even if not entirely all at once.

The same applies to salvation. It's a slow process if you ask me.

You know what? You are right about killing. You can kill someone a little. So it wasn't a good example from me.
Still I feel you can help others a lot (hell of a lot) but you can't save them a little. Or if you save them a little it means you totally save them from something that's part of the main problem. Does it make any sense? But at the end we are the ones who can really save ourselves. Yes, others can help.
Anyway I believe we agree much but the word 'save' has a little bit different meaning in our heads.

[Mark]

Roland is a part of The Tower, just as we all are supposed to be. Roland is an 'Old Timer' and more importantly, The Protector of The Tower. The Dark Tower, or Gan, uses him to keep itself at good defense against evil. The Crimson King is a filter for all the evil in existence. He seeks out evil and uses it for his own purpose, but ultimately fails. TCK and all his followers worked not for each other but their own benefit, where as Roland and the good guys work for one another, and anyone else they can save. In the end, it is not Roland who kills all the bad guys with his guns, it is those who've helped him along the way. Making sure Roland gets to The Tower insures the continuation of the cycle. The horn at the end may be something to remind him of the tower, perhaps it sounds off the same noise the roses did right before he goes through the doors. If he can remember the tower, he might get a chance to lead his own life the way he sees fit rather than climbing the stairs again. He might be able to change a lot more things if he re-tracks his journey with knowledge of what lies at the top room of The Dark Tower.

I personally disagree, Roland doesn't search for The Tower to save it, I didn't think, I personally thought he searched for it because he needed to. He wanted to see it. I do like what you said at the end though, about how if he remembers walking up the stairs once, he might not do it again, but I also disagree. Roland is a Tower Junkie, he needs it. I don't think he could ever live properly without knowing whats at the top if he knows he's been to The Tower. A heroin addict knows what Heroin does to them after they take it, but they still take it again. I see it like that. I think he'd always be curious. If you walked to the gates of heaven, opened them and had to repeat a portion of your life again, knowing what had just happened, then wouldn't you want to know how to actually walk into heaven? I personally wouldn't sit back and think "Ah well, it's rejected me once, i'll give up now", and I don't think Roland would either.

[Brice]

That's funny....I don't think we can save ourselves. I think we can only maybe save each other a little.

How can you save someone a little? 'Save' is a very.. definite word or verb. Like 'kill'. You can't kill anyone a little. You kill someone or you don't kill them but there is no middle way.


Oh, you can't ever entirely save anyone, IMO. You can only do a little to put them on their way.

You can also kill people a little. If what you do leads them to their death then you've killed them even if not entirely all at once.

The same applies to salvation. It's a slow process if you ask me.

You know what? You are right about killing. You can kill someone a little. So it wasn't a good example from me.
Still I feel you can help others a lot (hell of a lot) but you can't save them a little. Or if you save them a little it means you totally save them from something that's part of the main problem. Does it make any sense? But at the end we are the ones who can really save ourselves. Yes, others can help.
Anyway I believe we agree much but the word 'save' has a little bit different meaning in our heads.

I think you're right.

It makes sense, but if you save them even from the main problem at the time they are never totally saved until it's too late for salvation or damnation. There will always be more main problems until they die. Therefore in my opinion each thing you do no matter how small for someone is saving them, even if it's not a conscious goal. If it is a part of their salvation than it is also wholly their salvation.

[pathoftheturtle]

When it comes to The Dark Tower, I don't really know for sure. If the Tower is headless, or if Gan exists, and is really good, but not powerful enough to stop the Red, then I guess that the universe is doomed. If that is the case, then I suppose that Roland learning it would not do any good. It takes a lot of courage to face the possibility of that. On the other hand, an all-powerful God might have good reason for aloofness, but if Gan cannot protect us in the long run, anyway, is it responsible to not ask for help? If Gan doesn't know how to best run creation, if this is just a fallible being, how can he know that there is no way? And if there is no conscious being there at all, then I think that point (that it might be good to know it) goes double.

I don't quite understand how your point goes double if there is no being to ask for help.It's not conclusive, but it is suggestive. If there is a conscious being at the top of the Tower, then there may or may not be any use in the arrival of another conscious being. If there is none, the arrival of one still might not do any good, but it makes it seem a bit more likely that that is just what's missing.

It's only natural to me to look for the philosophy in the structure. To use your bathtub example, perhaps the plug is loose. That could explain why the CK cannot be permanently erased. It could explain how whole earths can be afflicted by horrors such as that seen in the novel Cell. Indeed, it could explain death itself. When the machinery of existence chews up the living, do the living have the right to put their own interests first?
If the water in the tub is just as full of filth as the prim at the bottom of the drain, then what difference does it really make for it to stay in there?
If Roland's calling is to protect the multiverse and those within it, then it's only right that he should try to understand how it works. If Gan is an unconscious force which prevents him from gaining full understanding, (or a conscious being influencing the unconscious force of ka, to the same result) well, it's possible that this is for the best. Eventually, however, that may no longer be the case.

Personally, I happen to believe that God is neither conscious nor unconscious, but rather, of yet another order of being altogether. I believe that omniscience is as far beyond comparison to human sentience as the human mind is beyond comparison to a simple gearshaft. However, the final issue here, to me, is not whether human consciousness is superior, but just precisely what its actual value is.

If Gan has a plan to clean the tub out, to bring the White to prominence within it, then what is the best way for Roland to aid in this, and how is he to know it? How could he be sure of what he's told? It's all about authority, and the process of ka. If one meets an angel, he may mistake him for a devil, unless they have a better destiny than that.

[Mark]

It's not conclusive, but it is suggestive. If there is a conscious being at the top of the Tower, then there may or may not be any use in the arrival of another conscious being. If there is none, the arrival of one still might not do any good, but it makes it seem a bit more likely that that is just what's missing.

So if I understand correctly you believe that at the top of the Tower there is like a control for the universe?


It's only natural to me to look for the philosophy in the structure. To use your bathtub example, perhaps the plug is loose. that could explain why the CK cannot be permanently erased.

I agree the plug is loose, due to the beams being destroyed, this time I think of it as a chain to an anchor, if the chain breaks, the anchor is no longer anchoring the boat, thus the boat gets swept away, similar to how if the beams break, eventually the Tower falls and the Prim rise. CK always has to be there, he's the water that rusts the chain, there will always be something acting against the Tower. Perhaps CK could be erased, but this way was best, so no new enemy could arise?


If the water in the tub is just as full of filth as the prim at the bottom of the drain, then what difference does it really make for it to stay in there?
If Roland's calling is to protect the multiverse and those within it, then it's only right that he should try to understand how it works. If Gan is an unconscious force which prevents him from gaining full understanding, (or a conscious being influencing the unconscious force of ka, to the same result) well, it's possible that this is for the best. Eventually, however, that may no longer be the case.

But why does ROland need full understanding? If he knows it's going wrong, then he saves it and shouldn't he leave it? Perhaps he can't fully understand the workings of the Tower, only being human, and it would boggle his mind.



If Gan has a plan to clean the tub out, to bring the White to prominence within it, then what is the best way for Roland to aid in this, and how is he to know it? How could he be sure of what he's told? It's all about authority, and the process of ka. If one meets an angel, he may mistake him for a devil, unless they have a better destiny than that.

Well, when the Beams needed healing, then sent a message to the tet in a dream, that went to the back of their mind, perhaps in the same way? The Grapefruit as well, could've sent him a message (I haven't read the comics so I dunno if it did). He'd believe it because he fought for The White.

[Ka-tet]

To join in with roland being saved, heres what i think. Sorry its breif.

My opinion is fairly simmilar to marks, its all about roalnds desire for the tower, and the resolve to do anything it takes to get there. He makes any sacrifice worth making to get to the tower, be they friends or family. Rolands salvation (the completion of his quest) lies in the realisation not that the tower is not important, but that some things are more important. Take his ka-tet for example, he cared a great deal for all of them, or at least he did in the loop we saw. He even gave susanah a means of leaving the danger that he know lay in wait, he saved her. When he finds the ability to put those he cares for before his quest, he can reach the top of the tower.

Sorry if that didnt make sense to anyone else lol, it does to me :rock:

[Mark]

To join in with roland being saved, heres what i think. Sorry its breif.

My opinion is fairly simmilar to marks, its all about roalnds desire for the tower, and the resolve to do anything it takes to get there. He makes any sacrifice worth making to get to the tower, be they friends or family. Rolands salvation (the completion of his quest) lies in the realisation not that the tower is not important, but that some things are more important. Take his ka-tet for example, he cared a great deal for all of them, or at least he did in the loop we saw. He even gave susanah a means of leaving the danger that he know lay in wait, he saved her. When he finds the ability to put those he cares for before his quest, he can reach the top of the tower.

Sorry if that didnt make sense to anyone else lol, it does to me :rock:

His Mother, when she walked in on him with the Grapefruit, and Jake falling, as two examples.

[Ka-tet]

To join in with roland being saved, heres what i think. Sorry its breif.

My opinion is fairly simmilar to marks, its all about roalnds desire for the tower, and the resolve to do anything it takes to get there. He makes any sacrifice worth making to get to the tower, be they friends or family. Rolands salvation (the completion of his quest) lies in the realisation not that the tower is not important, but that some things are more important. Take his ka-tet for example, he cared a great deal for all of them, or at least he did in the loop we saw. He even gave susanah a means of leaving the danger that he know lay in wait, he saved her. When he finds the ability to put those he cares for before his quest, he can reach the top of the tower.

Sorry if that didnt make sense to anyone else lol, it does to me :rock:

His Mother, when she walked in on him with the Grapefruit, and Jake falling, as two examples.

Exactly, but he wouldnt have droped jake a second time, beacuse he cared for jake, and in turn, and in my opinion, he beat the loop. I think the next is when he gets to the top. He went back for the horn after all, he took the risk, and put somthing else before the urge to get to the tower.

[Mark]

You think the loop we read about at the end is the last loop? I don't agree personally, but what makes you say that?

[Ka-tet]

I've just had a thought then, maybe, Roland doesn't reach the top of the Tower because what is at the top of the Tower is so horrible that the Tower spares him? Maybe the Tower is actually saving him?

Saving him by daming him? Roland is damned by having to continue the loop, i think he would be willing to pay whatever price, even death, to reach the top, and end the hell that is his quest. Think of the horrors he has seen on the road to the tower, think of the (possibly millions) of times he had to bury jake, and watch eddie die. Tell me, how can this be his salvation?

[Ka-tet]

You think the loop we read about at the end is the last loop? I don't agree personally, but what makes you say that?

He has the horn this time, which means that whatever happend at jericho hill changed. If that changed, the everything after that changes. He alterd his own fate by risking everything to go back for the horn, he could have died and not reached the tower, but he didnt care. Which proves he has it in him to get to the top this time.

[Mark]

I've just had a thought then, maybe, Roland doesn't reach the top of the Tower because what is at the top of the Tower is so horrible that the Tower spares him? Maybe the Tower is actually saving him?

Saving him by daming him? Roland is damned by having to continue the loop, i think he would be willing to pay whatever price, even death, to reach the top, and end the hell that is his quest. Think of the horrors he has seen on the road to the tower, think of the (possibly millions) of times he had to bury jake, and watch eddie die. Tell me, how can this be his salvation?

We don't know what's at the top of The Tower, it could be crazy. If the Tower shows his life floor by floor, whats the last room before the top? I personally can't remember if it's mentioned or not. But imagine the top was so mad and would lead to a fate worse than death, maybe thats where the salvation is. He doesn't remember his past loops, so he doesn't know "The Hell that is his quest" until he's hit with it when he opens the door.

[Mark]

You think the loop we read about at the end is the last loop? I don't agree personally, but what makes you say that?

He has the horn this time, which means that whatever happend at jericho hill changed. If that changed, the everything after that changes. He alterd his own fate by risking everything to go back for the horn, he could have died and not reached the tower, but he didnt care. Which proves he has it in him to get to the top this time.

How do we know he doesn't get something everytime? Perhaps the loop before ours he only had one gun? Or didn't have a pony, or his hat, or his pack? Each event in his life that we hear about and read about may or may not be set in stone from his first loop. What we think is an ordinary thing in our loop, may not have been there in a past one.

[Ka-tet]

You think the loop we read about at the end is the last loop? I don't agree personally, but what makes you say that?

He has the horn this time, which means that whatever happend at jericho hill changed. If that changed, the everything after that changes. He alterd his own fate by risking everything to go back for the horn, he could have died and not reached the tower, but he didnt care. Which proves he has it in him to get to the top this time.

How do we know he doesn't get something everytime? Perhaps the loop before ours he only had one gun? Or didn't have a pony, or his hat, or his pack? Each event in his life that we hear about and read about may or may not be set in stone from his first loop. What we think is an ordinary thing in our loop, may not have been there in a past one.

Agreed, but he wouldnt have to change his actions to inherit both his fathers guns, or special magic pouch. He risked his own life going back on jericho hill for the horn, and in turn proved somthing was worth more to him than reaching the tower.


We don't know what's at the top of The Tower, it could be crazy. If the Tower shows his life floor by floor, whats the last room before the top? I personally can't remember if it's mentioned or not. But imagine the top was so mad and would lead to a fate worse than death, maybe thats where the salvation is. He doesn't remember his past loops, so he doesn't know "The Hell that is his quest" until he's hit with it when he opens the door.

Tell me, whats more "crazy" than what roland has had to experiance over and over again? Even if he dosnt remember it, it still happend more than once. Think about the moment of pure insanity when he realises whats been happening, when he relaises he has to relive the hell of watching those he loves suffer for him all over again. I dont think anything can be worse than that.

[Mark]

You think the loop we read about at the end is the last loop? I don't agree personally, but what makes you say that?

He has the horn this time, which means that whatever happend at jericho hill changed. If that changed, the everything after that changes. He alterd his own fate by risking everything to go back for the horn, he could have died and not reached the tower, but he didnt care. Which proves he has it in him to get to the top this time.

How do we know he doesn't get something everytime? Perhaps the loop before ours he only had one gun? Or didn't have a pony, or his hat, or his pack? Each event in his life that we hear about and read about may or may not be set in stone from his first loop. What we think is an ordinary thing in our loop, may not have been there in a past one.

Agreed, but he wouldnt have to change his actions to inherit both his fathers guns, or special magic pouch. He risked his own life going back on jericho hill for the horn, and in turn proved somthing was worth more to him than reaching the tower.

Really? How do you know? Maybe his Father died and he had to run to get the guns, I doubt his Father would enter battle without his guns, Roland would still be on apprentice guns wouldn't he? His Dad didn't die next to him. Maybe his Dad got robbed of both guns, and Roland only got one back, but it changed and he got both back.



We don't know what's at the top of The Tower, it could be crazy. If the Tower shows his life floor by floor, whats the last room before the top? I personally can't remember if it's mentioned or not. But imagine the top was so mad and would lead to a fate worse than death, maybe thats where the salvation is. He doesn't remember his past loops, so he doesn't know "The Hell that is his quest" until he's hit with it when he opens the door.

Tell me, whats more "crazy" than what roland has had to experiance over and over again? Even if he dosnt remember it, it still happend more than once. Think about the moment of pure insanity when he realises whats been happening, when he relaises he has to relive the hell of watching those he loves suffer for him all over again. I dont think anything can be worse than that.

I wouldn't know. But remember in the Matrix, Neo wakes up and realises his whole life was a lie? That'd mess me up, I think if I realised that i'd done everything loads of times, and it'd all been a lie, all my friends and family dying countless times, it would kill me.

[Ka-tet]

You think the loop we read about at the end is the last loop? I don't agree personally, but what makes you say that?

He has the horn this time, which means that whatever happend at jericho hill changed. If that changed, the everything after that changes. He alterd his own fate by risking everything to go back for the horn, he could have died and not reached the tower, but he didnt care. Which proves he has it in him to get to the top this time.

How do we know he doesn't get something everytime? Perhaps the loop before ours he only had one gun? Or didn't have a pony, or his hat, or his pack? Each event in his life that we hear about and read about may or may not be set in stone from his first loop. What we think is an ordinary thing in our loop, may not have been there in a past one.

Agreed, but he wouldnt have to change his actions to inherit both his fathers guns, or special magic pouch. He risked his own life going back on jericho hill for the horn, and in turn proved somthing was worth more to him than reaching the tower.

Really? How do you know? Maybe his Father died and he had to run to get the guns, I doubt his Father would enter battle without his guns, Roland would still be on apprentice guns wouldn't he? His Dad didn't die next to him. Maybe his Dad got robbed of both guns, and Roland only got one back, but it changed and he got both back.

If i remember correctly there was a part in one of the books that showed us the events of jericho hill. A bloodied cuthbert sounding the horn, and urging roland to continue. THATS why its so important, because he went back and continued, for cuthbert, not for himself.



We don't know what's at the top of The Tower, it could be crazy. If the Tower shows his life floor by floor, whats the last room before the top? I personally can't remember if it's mentioned or not. But imagine the top was so mad and would lead to a fate worse than death, maybe thats where the salvation is. He doesn't remember his past loops, so he doesn't know "The Hell that is his quest" until he's hit with it when he opens the door.


Tell me, whats more "crazy" than what roland has had to experiance over and over again? Even if he dosnt remember it, it still happend more than once. Think about the moment of pure insanity when he realises whats been happening, when he relaises he has to relive the hell of watching those he loves suffer for him all over again. I dont think anything can be worse than that.


I wouldn't know. But remember in the Matrix, Neo wakes up and realises his whole life was a lie? That'd mess me up, I think if I realised that i'd done everything loads of times, and it'd all been a lie, all my friends and family dying countless times, it would kill me.

I fail to see where your coming from. What neo lived wasnt real, what roland lived was real, it was real every time. The suffering, the pain, the death, it all happend. The matrix was a lie, rolands life wasnt a lie, he just had to repeat it.

[Mark]

You think the loop we read about at the end is the last loop? I don't agree personally, but what makes you say that?

He has the horn this time, which means that whatever happend at jericho hill changed. If that changed, the everything after that changes. He alterd his own fate by risking everything to go back for the horn, he could have died and not reached the tower, but he didnt care. Which proves he has it in him to get to the top this time.

How do we know he doesn't get something everytime? Perhaps the loop before ours he only had one gun? Or didn't have a pony, or his hat, or his pack? Each event in his life that we hear about and read about may or may not be set in stone from his first loop. What we think is an ordinary thing in our loop, may not have been there in a past one.

Agreed, but he wouldnt have to change his actions to inherit both his fathers guns, or special magic pouch. He risked his own life going back on jericho hill for the horn, and in turn proved somthing was worth more to him than reaching the tower.

Really? How do you know? Maybe his Father died and he had to run to get the guns, I doubt his Father would enter battle without his guns, Roland would still be on apprentice guns wouldn't he? His Dad didn't die next to him. Maybe his Dad got robbed of both guns, and Roland only got one back, but it changed and he got both back.

If i remember correctly there was a part in one of the books that showed us the events of jericho hill. A bloodied cuthbert sounding the horn, and urging roland to continue. THATS why its so important, because he went back and continued, for cuthbert, not for himself.

There was part that showed Cuthbert sound the Horn, but not what guns he had, it was significant that he sounded the horn for the loop we read about at the end, not for our loop, in the previous loop perhaps he tells the story of watching his dad shoot down men with one gun? Roland COULD have carried on with apprentice guns, but he didn't he MUST have gone for his Dad's guns sometime.



We don't know what's at the top of The Tower, it could be crazy. If the Tower shows his life floor by floor, whats the last room before the top? I personally can't remember if it's mentioned or not. But imagine the top was so mad and would lead to a fate worse than death, maybe thats where the salvation is. He doesn't remember his past loops, so he doesn't know "The Hell that is his quest" until he's hit with it when he opens the door.


Tell me, whats more "crazy" than what roland has had to experiance over and over again? Even if he dosnt remember it, it still happend more than once. Think about the moment of pure insanity when he realises whats been happening, when he relaises he has to relive the hell of watching those he loves suffer for him all over again. I dont think anything can be worse than that.


I wouldn't know. But remember in the Matrix, Neo wakes up and realises his whole life was a lie? That'd mess me up, I think if I realised that i'd done everything loads of times, and it'd all been a lie, all my friends and family dying countless times, it would kill me.

I fail to see where your coming from. What neo lived wasnt real, what roland lived was real, it was real every time. The suffering, the pain, the death, it all happend. The matrix was a lie, rolands life wasnt a lie, he just had to repeat it.[/QUOTE]

Really? How do you know Rolands life was true? Neo thought his life was true. Perhaps Gan orcastrated everything to Roland to prove a point? Maybe Rolands world isn't real, it's a thought, all the other worlds are real, but anything affected by Roland isn't? This is just me shooting suggestions, I don't believe it, but I don't know what could be at the Tower thats worse that what Roland has to do. This is just an idea.

[Ka-tet]

You think the loop we read about at the end is the last loop? I don't agree personally, but what makes you say that?

He has the horn this time, which means that whatever happend at jericho hill changed. If that changed, the everything after that changes. He alterd his own fate by risking everything to go back for the horn, he could have died and not reached the tower, but he didnt care. Which proves he has it in him to get to the top this time.

How do we know he doesn't get something everytime? Perhaps the loop before ours he only had one gun? Or didn't have a pony, or his hat, or his pack? Each event in his life that we hear about and read about may or may not be set in stone from his first loop. What we think is an ordinary thing in our loop, may not have been there in a past one.

Agreed, but he wouldnt have to change his actions to inherit both his fathers guns, or special magic pouch. He risked his own life going back on jericho hill for the horn, and in turn proved somthing was worth more to him than reaching the tower.

Really? How do you know? Maybe his Father died and he had to run to get the guns, I doubt his Father would enter battle without his guns, Roland would still be on apprentice guns wouldn't he? His Dad didn't die next to him. Maybe his Dad got robbed of both guns, and Roland only got one back, but it changed and he got both back.


If i remember correctly there was a part in one of the books that showed us the events of jericho hill. A bloodied cuthbert sounding the horn, and urging roland to continue. THATS why its so important, because he went back and continued, for cuthbert, not for himself.

There was part that showed Cuthbert sound the Horn, but not what guns he had, it was significant that he sounded the horn for the loop we read about at the end, not for our loop, in the previous loop perhaps he tells the story of watching his dad shoot down men with one gun? Roland COULD have carried on with apprentice guns, but he didn't he MUST have gone for his Dad's guns sometime.

His dads guns were an inheritance, given to him because of his birth right. The horn on the other hand wasnt his to take, or indeed, only became his on curthberts request. Completing said request is where he proves his realisation.




We don't know what's at the top of The Tower, it could be crazy. If the Tower shows his life floor by floor, whats the last room before the top? I personally can't remember if it's mentioned or not. But imagine the top was so mad and would lead to a fate worse than death, maybe thats where the salvation is. He doesn't remember his past loops, so he doesn't know "The Hell that is his quest" until he's hit with it when he opens the door.


Tell me, whats more "crazy" than what roland has had to experiance over and over again? Even if he dosnt remember it, it still happend more than once. Think about the moment of pure insanity when he realises whats been happening, when he relaises he has to relive the hell of watching those he loves suffer for him all over again. I dont think anything can be worse than that.


I wouldn't know. But remember in the Matrix, Neo wakes up and realises his whole life was a lie? That'd mess me up, I think if I realised that i'd done everything loads of times, and it'd all been a lie, all my friends and family dying countless times, it would kill me.
I fail to see where your coming from. What neo lived wasnt real, what roland lived was real, it was real every time. The suffering, the pain, the death, it all happend. The matrix was a lie, rolands life wasnt a lie, he just had to repeat it.[/QUOTE]

Really? How do you know Rolands life was true? Neo thought his life was true. Perhaps Gan orcastrated everything to Roland to prove a point? Maybe Rolands world isn't real, it's a thought, all the other worlds are real, but anything affected by Roland isn't? This is just me shooting suggestions, I don't believe it, but I don't know what could be at the Tower thats worse that what Roland has to do. This is just an idea.[/QUOTE]

Its an interesting theory to be sure, but even if gan did just orchestrate everything and it wasnt real, why the apprent reptition? If not to make roland suffer? Its one thing to experance somthing seeming real once, its another to experiance twice. Also, we cant be certain that in the next loop, roland isnt aware of the previous loop. Maybe this time roland remembers? Maybe thats how he gets to the top and saves himself.

[Mark]

Because I can't be bothered deleting the appropriate quotes, i'll just say it. THe horn was the Horn Of Eld. He gave it to Cuthbert before the battle, it had been passed down the line of Eld to him, i'm sure of it.

Also, previously we discussed him remembering everything, it wouldn't save him by any means, in my opiniopn, if you look back i used the gates of heaven as a metaphor, if you go to the gates of heaven, open them and have to start at the bottom of the stairs leading up, but remember that it restarted you, you'll go back up and want to know why.

[pathoftheturtle]

It's not conclusive, but it is suggestive. If there is a conscious being at the top of the Tower, then there may or may not be any use in the arrival of another conscious being. If there is none, the arrival of one still might not do any good, but it makes it seem a bit more likely that that is just what's missing.

So if I understand correctly you believe that at the top of the Tower there is like a control for the universe? ...That is what Roland seems to believe, anyway. As I said, though, it's natural to me to look for the philosophy behind it all. If there is no control for the universe there, then where is it? Or, if there is no control anywhere, then what's the meaning of life?
...But why does ROland need full understanding? If he knows it's going wrong, then he saves it and shouldn't he leave it?...But does he, in fact, know that it is saved?

...I agree the plug is loose, due to the beams being destroyed...These metaphors are getting convoluted. What I was thinking was that the beams were endangered because "the plug" was loose, not the other way around. :orely:

[Mark]

...I agree the plug is loose, due to the beams being destroyed...These metaphors are getting convoluted. What I was thinking was that the beams were endangered because "the plug" was loose, not the other way around. :orely:

So you believe that the Tower is always in danger?

[Dereleth]

My take is that Roland is a servant of the White and his lot is to continue his efforts to preserve the Beams and the Tower so that all existances continue. Perhaps he is Sisyphus, doomed to the same task, due to his sins.

[pathoftheturtle]

So you believe that the Tower is always in danger?Until the end of time.

[vanmundygar]

I know that for me, every time I read the words, "The man in black fled..." I am overcome with a Spencer of nostalgia and excitement.

[CrimsonMordred]

Yes and I don't know if anyone thought of this before, there's WAY Too much to this thread. But there wouldn't be the Crimson King in his second journey, since he was defeated inside the Dark Tower itself, therefore existing outside of time itself. Therefore there wouldn't be a Mordred either.

Then there will, in fact, be a Man in Black. However, would he be Randall Flagg? Or would he exist solely as Walter?

Who would dare approach the Dark Tower so nigh come the second journey?

[Brainslinger]

Yes and I don't know if anyone thought of this before, there's WAY Too much to this thread. But there wouldn't be the Crimson King in his second journey, since he was defeated inside the Dark Tower itself, therefore existing outside of time itself. Therefore there wouldn't be a Mordred either.


Hmm. That's food for thought.

Black House spoilers:
I have often wondered if the two versions of the Crimson King described by Parkus in Black House was actually incarnations of the King at different stages of his life. I.e. the younger self that has yet to go to the Tower and the one who went there/will be there/has always been there on the balcony. Or not once he got rubbed out... His eyes still existed after the rest of him was sent todash though, and since the eyes are the windows to the soul I think he remains there in a sense, albeit in a drastically neutered state.

I know that's not how Parkus describes it with his description of the physical body in the Tower and the other part in the court of the King (if I remember correctly), but from an outsiders point of view, that could just be a theory he thought up to fit what he was seeing.


Dear me that's a mind bender. I suspect there will still be younger versions of he Crimson King outside the Tower though in later cycles. I wonder if he'll see his own eyes looking back at him when he arrives at the Tower though? Maybe that's the very thing he went to investigate... only to be rubbed out again. Hee hee.


Then there will, in fact, be a Man in Black. However, would he be Randall Flagg? Or would he exist solely as Walter?

I'd imagine he'll be pretty much the same sorceror(s) he has always been.

[pathoftheturtle]

Indeed, the eyes have it. It seems to me that one aspect of the CK exists outside of conventional time, as well, (totally separate from the Tower, and the Multiverse) tho I'm not sure whether or not he's truly immortal. Still, his defeat is not his destruction, and that may well be the main reason that Roland can't move on.

[High_Desert_Gunslinger]

Many threads in here contain theories on the "loop" but I haven't seen one that touches this question.

If Roland is caught in the loop, does that mean every single Stephen King work that is connected is also repeating over and over as well? I am just curious if anyone has a theory one this. There are many examples but one I thought of is that if Insomnia doesn't loop then Patrick Danville wouldn't be there another time or would he? Another, do Eddie, Jake, & Susannah loop too? Then there is the matter of Stephen King himself in the story... does everything loop or does it all change with a different author another time around.

I don't know maybe I am looking into it too much lol

[Letti]

High_Desert_Gunslinger, really good questions. But I think we can get more answers if we move this thread to the right section. I hope you don't mind.
Anyway after work I'm gonna come back and spread my thoughts. :)

[Dagavidiab]

In my opinion....: Only Roland loop, that is because his history is the only one that change, Roland is the only element who present a change in every loop. There are theories about how a time travel to the past could create a "another" universe, a parallel one; to me, Roland is jumping through those universes in every loop. I also believe that being a parallel universe, other things could change as well, besides Roland (for example: Odetta never lost her legs, a man in white instead a man in black, mahogany instead of Sandalwood, J.K. Rowling instead King, etc, etc.............); but not for the loop!!!

[Jean]

All this thread will be a big Spoiler no?
Yes, that's why you don't have to - I would even say you shouldn't, for the sake of readability - tag your spoilers, unless they refer to other books than the Dark Tower. See, it has been moved to the DT7 forum, it's a spoiler forum by definition.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Riostar]

I like to think that its only Roland who loops and now with the edition on the horn on this newest loop that things may turn out differently for him especially when he reaches the tower at the end. Like maybe he wont let Jake die under the mountain or Eddie wont get shot, that somehow the Ka-tet will stay whole (though I know this cant really happen because Roland has to go to the tower alone) or maybe I can at least hope that Oy makes it.
A friend of mine has a theory that no matter what the loops keep going but with small variables. In this story Roland was wishing he had the horn so he tower was like "ok you want it have it" so when he looped he had the horn. He thinks that the tower will give Roland whatever he thinks he needs to make the outcome different but that in th end he will always loop.

[Letti]

IMHO Roland isn't in a loop either but a spiral. Every time he gets to a new level/world of the Tower.
Something like this (yeah I know I have posted it many times before):
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/Lettike/helix1.jpg (http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p237/Lettike/helix1.jpg)
So if you ask me nothing is in a loop.

(I vanished the spoiler tags.)

[SynysterSaint]

Here is my theory about how the "loop" system works:

Roland has already saved the Tower (that was the first time he ever went through his journey). Every consecutive loop is Gan attempting to thank Roland for his actions by offering him salvation from himself. Roland lost his humanity in the search for the Tower, so Gan is making him go through the loops as a combined thanks/punishment. Salvation, however, is unique: it cannot be received as a gift, but it must be found by those who need it.

In that sense, Roland may not be the only one looping. I believe that the story is as much about Jake, Eddie, and Susannah attaining their salvation as it is Roland gaining his salvation. Therefore, each loop is changed by not only Roland's actions but the rest of his Tet. For instance, Roland may not let Jake drop this loop, but Eddie would also be more aware at the end of the battle of Algul Siento (spelling?) so as to not be mortally wounded. For instance, Jake may not have helped Oy in the first loop he was included in and Susannah may not have learned how to use the Orizas.

In response to your theory that the stories must also then loop, High_Desert_Gunslinger: The stories themselves do not loop. Each character's injection into this story, such as Patrick, are on a first-time-first-serve basis. I believe that each of the support characters change each time. That would also explain why Sai King has written so many books; each of their characters fill in for people such as Patrick in subsequent and previous loops. However, the main Tet members stay the same (even the late comers such as Pere Callahan).

What do all of you think about my theory?

[Dagavidiab]

Um...... If Roland keep the horn, why he can´t keep his original Ka-tet in a subsequent loop??

SynysterSaint: Gan is a big M%&/r F%&ER!!!! If you think that the Tower it's already saved, the hole history is pointless no? (Because we don't if this time -TDT- is the first time Roland enter the Tower).

Letti: I like your theory about the spiral, but when Roland (or X character) travels to other world he doesn't lose his memories and experiences, and doesn't replaced himself (or other version of himself) in this other world/universe.

Jean: Ok :thumbsup:

[Letti]

Letti: I like your theory about the spiral, but when Roland (or X character) travels to other world he doesn't lose his memories and experiences, and doesn't replaced himself (or other version of himself) in this other world/universe.

Have you ever travelled to another world sent by the Tower? :)

[High_Desert_Gunslinger]

Have you ever travelled to another world sent by the Tower? :)

Eveyday lol jk and thank you for moving this to the appropriate forum

interesting theories. The more I think about it the more it clears up, then I add one more thing into the mix and I rethink it all over again... its confusing but as seen in all his other books Stephen King likes to make his readers think.

[Dagavidiab]

Letti: I like your theory about the spiral, but when Roland (or X character) travels to other world he doesn't lose his memories and experiences, and doesn't replaced himself (or other version of himself) in this other world/universe.

Have you ever travelled to another world sent by the Tower? :)

Just like everyone of us! :couple:

As well as Roland, Jake, Eddie, Callahan, etc, etc... The tower connects all worlds, the fact that you make your travel by dying, by a door or by the tower doesn't matter; you are travelling by the tower

[Letti]

Letti: I like your theory about the spiral, but when Roland (or X character) travels to other world he doesn't lose his memories and experiences, and doesn't replaced himself (or other version of himself) in this other world/universe.

Have you ever travelled to another world sent by the Tower? :)

Just like everyone of us! :couple:

As well as Roland, Jake, Eddie, Callahan, etc, etc... The tower connects all worlds, the fact that you make your travel by dying, by a door or by the tower doesn't matter; you are travelling by the tower

Your answer is really romantic and I like it :rose: a lot still I don't know why you are that sure that the Tower cannot delete memories.

[SynysterSaint]

SynysterSaint: Gan is a big M%&/r F%&ER!!!! If you think that the Tower it's already saved, the hole history is pointless no? (Because we don't if this time -TDT- is the first time Roland enter the Tower).

I'm sorry, I can't follow what you said :(

[Dagavidiab]

Your answer is really romantic and I like it :rose: a lot still I don't know why you are that sure that the Tower cannot delete memories.
Thank you, and that is because Jake, Eddie, Callahan, Walter, Jack (The Talisman) and all the travelers still retain theirs memories, even when they died in orden to travel



SynysterSaint: Gan is a big M%&/r F%&ER!!!! If you think that the Tower it's already saved, the hole history is pointless no? (Because we don't if this time -TDT- is the first time Roland enter the Tower).

I'm sorry, I can't follow what you said :(

If the Tower is saved, why is Gan thanking Roland putting him in a situation where he is condemned to do the same thing over and over again? And in the case that the loop is for punishment, why??? He saved the Tower!!!!

About the pointless "point", if us, as readers/spectators, are side by side with Roland through is journey, it has to be the first one! Why? Will you read "The Dark Tower Series, Loop N° 1999". (maybe all will read it)

[SynysterSaint]

If the Tower is saved, why is Gan thanking Roland putting him in a situation where he is condemned to do the same thing over and over again? And in the case that the loop is for punishment, why??? He saved the Tower!!!!

About the pointless "point", if us, as readers/spectators, are side by side with Roland through is journey, it has to be the first one! Why? Will you read "The Dark Tower Series, Loop N° 1999". (maybe all will read it)

Oh, I get it now! Thank you very much for the clarification :)

The Tower was saved, but in his quest to save it Roland lost his humanity. Gan is forcing him to return to his quest as both a punishment and a reward/thanks. I'll be discussing this in two different parts, one about the punishment and one about the thanks. The third part is in reference to your last statements.

Part 1: The punishment aspect comes into play in the sense that he has to go back through his journey multiple times; keep in mind, though: he only has to repeat the loop as many times as he makes it necessary for himself! If he can prove that he has indeed regained his humanity, then the loops will end, he will ascend the Tower, and he will find what is there.

Part 2: This "punishment" is actually Gan's way or rewarding and thanking Roland for his efforts. Gan realizes that Roland has sacrificed his life and his humanity in order to save all the universes, and Gan wants to give Roland salvation (his humanity) as a reward and a thank you. The problem is one cannot simply be given their humanity; it is something that one must find for themselves. So Gan does the next best thing: he/she gives Roland the ability and the tools with which to regain it. Whenever Roland finishes a loop and he has proven that he has regained some of his humanity, Gan gives him a new tool or object to make that next loop easier (in the case of this loop, the horn of Eld) so that he may eventually find his salvation.

Part 3: The loop written about in The Dark Tower books certainly does not have to be the first loop! My opinions about which loop it is is meaningless; the point is, there's nothing that suggests it has to be the first one. But whatever number it is is also meaningless for the story. The history of each loop is important regardless of which number Roland is on; each loop furthers his goal at regaining his humanity, and therefore events of each loop are equally important. The one we read about may, in fact, be the most important: at the end of it, Roland has all-but-completely regained his humanity, and he was given what seems to be the final tool to gain entrance to the top of the Tower.

By the way: I have no idea what this is: "The Dark Tower Series, Loop N° 1999" :lol: Is that a thread?

[Dagavidiab]

If the Tower is saved, why is Gan thanking Roland putting him in a situation where he is condemned to do the same thing over and over again? And in the case that the loop is for punishment, why??? He saved the Tower!!!!

About the pointless "point", if us, as readers/spectators, are side by side with Roland through is journey, it has to be the first one! Why? Will you read "The Dark Tower Series, Loop N° 1999". (maybe all will read it)

Oh, I get it now! Thank you very much for the clarification :)

The Tower was saved, but in his quest to save it Roland lost his humanity. Gan is forcing him to return to his quest as both a punishment and a reward/thanks. I'll be discussing this in two different parts, one about the punishment and one about the thanks. The third part is in reference to your last statements.

Part 1: The punishment aspect comes into play in the sense that he has to go back through his journey multiple times; keep in mind, though: he only has to repeat the loop as many times as he makes it necessary for himself! If he can prove that he has indeed regained his humanity, then the loops will end, he will ascend the Tower, and he will find what is there.

Part 2: This "punishment" is actually Gan's way or rewarding and thanking Roland for his efforts. Gan realizes that Roland has sacrificed his life and his humanity in order to save all the universes, and Gan wants to give Roland salvation (his humanity) as a reward and a thank you. The problem is one cannot simply be given their humanity; it is something that one must find for themselves. So Gan does the next best thing: he/she gives Roland the ability and the tools with which to regain it. Whenever Roland finishes a loop and he has proven that he has regained some of his humanity, Gan gives him a new tool or object to make that next loop easier (in the case of this loop, the horn of Eld) so that he may eventually find his salvation.

Part 3: The loop written about in The Dark Tower books certainly does not have to be the first loop! My opinions about which loop it is is meaningless; the point is, there's nothing that suggests it has to be the first one. But whatever number it is is also meaningless for the story. The history of each loop is important regardless of which number Roland is on; each loop furthers his goal at regaining his humanity, and therefore events of each loop are equally important. The one we read about may, in fact, be the most important: at the end of it, Roland has all-but-completely regained his humanity, and he was given what seems to be the final tool to gain entrance to the top of the Tower.

By the way: I have no idea what this is: "The Dark Tower Series, Loop N° 1999" :lol: Is that a thread?

I read you and i understand your point.... BUT, in my experience, Gan (or your favorite god) doesn't exist, or in the case that he/she exists (wich is the TDT case), he/she could not care less for the human or is humanity, so, if Roland did what he had to do, why help him? He already save the universe, he becomes expendable

[Candice Dionysus]

I'm going to have to say I agree very much with SynysterSaint's theory.

If I may, Dagavidiab... If Gan wants Roland to save the Tower in the first place, this shows that Gan is somewhat of a loving deity. If we can assume this is so, it may be that in saving the Tower, Gan came to love Roland more than before he did so, and so the loop is less a punishment for losing his humanity, and more an act of pity on Gan's part. And an act of love. And through this act of love and pity, Gan presents to Roland multiple opportunities to save the Tower and his own humanity in the bargain. If I were Gan, I feel I may have done so in the same manner; each time Roland is able to salvage a small part of his humanity, Gan presents him with another gift to allow for him to save more of his own humanity, and thus, after X amount of loops, Roland will finally be able to continue on with "life as normal," for lack of a better term. The loops are determined to continue until Roland can reach the Tower with his full humanity intact, and thus are dependant to continue as long as necessary, as determined by Rolands own actions. So the loops only continue as long as Roland "needs" them to, and as soon as he achieves what Gan has presented the opportunity for, the loops, or the spiral, as Letti likes to think of it, and which I like to think of it as well, will finally reach an end, and Roland will be allowed to continue loop/spiral free on his own continuing Ka.

[pathoftheturtle]

How do we know for sure that destroying the Tower in any of single one of these timelines really would destroy the multiverse? In Mid-World, they say that the Dark Tower there is the lynchpin of all the realities of the multiverse, driving them all towards an ordered destiny. Roland's quest was to find out if that is true. If he has indeed moved to another world, then it apparently is not. His kinsmen may have simply been mistaken in assuming that the multiverse revolved around themselves.

The word "universe" means everything together... but is there much actual validity to such a concept? In what sense are the obvious separations of individual things transcended? Isn't "oneness" even more meaningless in a multiverse?

Those who follow the DT series because they feel that Roland is a singular hero who will lead them to a vision of ultimate coherence are bound for disappointment, at least in this reality. The best which can be said is that there is yet hope that there is a Greater Dark Tower of a higher order that connects the tower that we saw him enter to one which truly is "Keystone."

[Candice Dionysus]

Ah, quite a valid point, Path! You always know how to make me take a step back and do some serious thinking.

[SynysterSaint]

I'm going to have to say I agree very much with SynysterSaint's theory.

Thank you very much :huglove:


If I may, Dagavidiab... If Gan wants Roland to save the Tower in the first place, this shows that Gan is somewhat of a loving deity. If we can assume this is so, it may be that in saving the Tower, Gan came to love Roland more than before he did so, and so the loop is less a punishment for losing his humanity, and more an act of pity on Gan's part. And an act of love. And through this act of love and pity, Gan presents to Roland multiple opportunities to save the Tower and his own humanity in the bargain. If I were Gan, I feel I may have done so in the same manner; each time Roland is able to salvage a small part of his humanity, Gan presents him with another gift to allow for him to save more of his own humanity, and thus, after X amount of loops, Roland will finally be able to continue on with "life as normal," for lack of a better term. The loops are determined to continue until Roland can reach the Tower with his full humanity intact, and thus are dependant to continue as long as necessary, as determined by Rolands own actions. So the loops only continue as long as Roland "needs" them to, and as soon as he achieves what Gan has presented the opportunity for, the loops, or the spiral, as Letti likes to think of it, and which I like to think of it as well, will finally reach an end, and Roland will be allowed to continue loop/spiral free on his own continuing Ka.

You explained my theory better than I did! I like the way you explained why Gan would give Roland such a fate (I wouldn't have thought to bring love or pity into my explanation).

[SynysterSaint]

pathoftheturtle: you've given me quite a bit to think about. I'll post a response once I fully understand what you said; it's a good bit to take in all at once ><

[mowque]

Now, since we know that

Roland has to keep re-doing his entire Quest endlessly

Does that mean that every detail is repeated exactly? Or do things change each cycle? Perhaps some times Roland manages to kill Flagg in the Oz Castle or other times that Jake falls from the Lud Bridge or Eddie lives or whatever?

Or is it exactly the same each time?

[SynysterSaint]

A quick note: You don't need to worry about the spoiler tags in this thread; since you've posted it in the final book forum it is, by definition, a spoiler thread. No tags are needed (saves you some effort and makes it easier on us to read your posts).

If you'd like, check out this thread (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=10303) where we just started discussing this very question. I think you'll find some of the ideas posted very interesting (and horribly different :lol:).

On a side note: I don't remember seeing you posting in any thread I've been in. I'm Matthew, a.k.a. SynysterSaint. Welcome to the site! :)

[alinda]

Hello mowque, I came to tell you the same thing
and now I shall add my welcome as well. :D

Thank matthew for being so helpfull....:huglove:

.................................................. .......................
some one will now be around to move and or merge
this thread with the other one.

[mowque]

Ah, so this thread already exists!

Instead of debating the theology, I'd rather discuss the various 'alternative' universes that could occur. Would Roland drop Jake in every one? Would Roland manage to kill the Man in Black in some of them? Does the whole Ka-tet reach the Tower in some cases?

[Jean]

I thought very much as Candice did - it was a great pleasure reading your post, Little Princess, and I so wish you would post more in discussion threads! - with the exception of ka, of course, and my being more pessimistic; I always thought that at the real end of the journey Roland will die; am ready to consider this point of view too, though...

[pathoftheturtle]

Welcome, mowque. :D Pleased to meet you.

If I could throw in my two cents, I don't think this question is quite the same as H_D_G's. Related, yes, but distinct. Ultimately, though, I expect that both will prove related to Many different Rolands (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=8911).

If you want to talk about probable differences between the cycles, I personally feel that Roland will find the Way Station empty. Shouldn't the resolution of the Waste Lands paradox carry over?

[Dagavidiab]

If Gan wants Roland to save the Tower in the first place, this shows that Gan is somewhat of a loving deity

Gan wants Roland to save the Tower because the Tower represents the nexus between all the "multiverses", all that has been created by Gan, if the Tower is destroyed, Gan loses all his toys and ant farms.

To me, the tower in this world is the "ultimate tower", in the "ultimate world", there isn't a part in one of the books where it is explained that if someone dies in Roland's world, there is no other world after that?

[pathoftheturtle]

In Stephen King's world, supposedly. Doesn't seem to preclude another version of Jake living in Susannah's new world, though.

If the Tower is just "Gan's body," then Gan wanting Roland to save it shows nothing more than self-interest. If the Tower represents the entire multiverse as opposed to complete non-existence, then it's an open question which is really preferable. Generally, being life-affirming means not just having a compulsion to survive, but rather, holding that life is good. However, what the Tower is supposed to represent is orderly structure, (the White, universal harmony) as opposed to heartless chaos. It's said that even if the Tower fell, the Prim would still be. Still, it is entirely conceivable that Gan doesn't really walk the walk.
That's what makes the question of this thread so critical: it's about the effect of what is being done with Roland upon the cosmos surrounding him. A crucial issue, I think, if it's true that Gan's main concern is how Roland failed to consider for himself how he was affecting others.
The diagram Letti provided here is a good chart of Roland's progress from his own personal perspective, but don't forget that various people he encounters in each cycle go off away from his curving path in every direction. What becomes of them?
Instituting Roland's cycle is the one action which we see the Tower actually perform, and it's hard to see what it contributes to order. If there is one world in which Patrick lives, and one in which he dies, that's a paradox; disharmony practically defined. Perhaps there is some method in this madness, though; we know little about the big picture. If it's true that Gan came to love Roland more when he saved the Tower, does that mean that he still loves the rest of us less? Do we all get such opportunities for redemption? If so, why should it be that Roland is to be saved by a different process? Do ours come to us through similar means, perhaps? Could it be that all of the universes circle back eventually to mirror Roland's motion, as a larger cycle within which his microcosmic quest takes place?

[pathoftheturtle]

BTW
Ah, quite a valid point, Path! You always know how to make me take a step back and do some serious thinking.Thanks. I try.
I was very impressed by your post, as well. Sorry if that hasn't been obvious before now. Sometimes I get so excited about the content of a discussion that I forget to show my feelings for those involved. Major failing of mine, actually: I have a gift for deep thinking, but I'm often lost when trying simply to relate with people.

[Brainslinger]

In Stephen King's world, supposedly. Doesn't seem to preclude another version of Jake living in Susannah's new world, though.

You mean, because Jake died in the Keystone world? I think that just means that our Jake isn't coming back, that death won't be doorway to another world for him, but I don't think it precludes other Jakes continuing to exist in other worlds.

If the keystone Jake had died (and I think it's clear our Jake isn't the keystone Jake, if he exists, although they might have become the same. I assumed the Jake who was followed during the todash sequence was that version but I might be wrong.) then maybe that would kill or unmake them all, but I'm not sure of that. Especially as keystone Jake and our Jake might very well have merged into one person (albeit with ours with right of veto since he doesn't mention any mixed memories).

Explaining my 'merged Jake' theory would be a bit of a tangent for this thread, but if you're interested I'll post it (although I know I've written it already. I can't pinpoint the post though it was quite a while ago).

Anyway, back on course: If I understand the spiral theory correctly (and I might not) a new keystone world is generated on another level of the tower every time Roland is sent back right? I subscribe more to the Roland in cycle theory rather than the spiral theory mainly due to that scene with the Three Kings. They state that this was the Tower Keystone world is the only world for which the Tower exists as a tower. Sure they lie, but they had no real reason for lying about that. Of course they could be wrong, but I don't think so. Remember also how Roland states that in his world, even the past is in motion rearranging itself in other ways? Part of that might be due to Author's retcons, etc, (the whole Walter,Marten, Flagg thing springs to mind here) but again, the loop could be causing some of that too as Roland makes other choices in the past.

Please note though, I don't think everyone else resets when Roland does, otherwise Susannah's ka with the Toren brothers would be pretty short lived. All other lives go on, (albeit their timelines might change due to different things Roland does each cycle) and Roland is on the temporal hamster wheel so to speak. At least for a while. (Although the concept of 'while' is a bit odd when time-loops are concerned. Until he gets things -himself- right, is what I mean.)

As for whether or not Gan is a caring deity or at least one interested in his creation (for good or ill) rather than just the deistic version that creates and leaves them to it... I think he is the former.

The very fact that Gan speaks to Roland at the end while he is ascending the Tower suggests Gan's got a point to make. The fact he sends Roland back with the horn suggests that to me too, whether it's for Roland's redemption or punishment (or a bit of both) he's certainly taking an interest. If his interest were purely for self preservation, why bother since he was saved at that point?

Experimentation would be another possibility, as has been stated elsewhere, but when considering the horn (which granted, by itself could just be the bit of cheese to keep Roland Rat pedalling away there) and Susannah's reward suggests mercy to me. Also considering the nature of that other incarnation of the Tower, the Rose, and the sense of well being and rightness, whiteness that it exudes, that all things will be well, I'd say Gan/The Tower/The Rose is far from uncaring. Albeit his Tower persona is hard as stone.

[pathoftheturtle]

...Roland states that in his world, even the past is in motion rearranging itself in other ways...True, but then he states that the past cannot be changed in Stephen King’s world. At least one of these statements must be false, if these two worlds are respectively the same two worlds every time, because Roland takes actions in the latter world which affect its course. Can he be expected to always act in the same way there when his own past is different? The whole point of the second statement, in fact, was that he could visit that particular when and where only ONE time, wasn’t it?

If the timelines of other people change, due to Roland, then what does it mean to say that “they” don’t reset? How can their lives go on if everything in their lives and about their lives is subject to revision? Again, the loop appears to cause more chaos than anything attempted by the Crimson King did.

However, we don’t really know what the original state of things was: Maybe it is the Tower’s weakening which led to all of this universal indeterminacy, and Roland’s spiral really does work as a cure. It could be that new “keystone” worlds are not generated for each iteration, but rather, that pre-existing additional (so-called keystone) worlds are reached by Roland from lower levels; possibly, all worlds are equally important and mutually interdependent, despite all of the various characters’ melodramatic assumptions regarding the centrality of the particular actions which they had to undertake this time. (Presumably, each and every version of them would make those same assumptions, repeatedly.)

If it is true that, unlike Roland and/or Roland’s world, Keystone Earth cannot cycle, then that begs the question of why it is that its duplicates don’t count. In what sense are they irrelevant? Where do the many Earths come from, anyway? What is their relationship? How are they arranged, if not in a cycle of their own? Resurrection through shifting timelines need not contradict the concept of the spirit of Jake living on any more or less than resurrection through shifting time would. Therefore, given that other Jakes do survive, what really makes Keystone Jake’s death so significant? How can any Jake be not “our” Jake if all worlds are connected? I think that that is just what cosmic order means.

On the other hand, if that one Earth IS the one and only real Keystone world, then Roland is now living in a mockery of true existence. Every other version of Earth that he might visit will be a mere shadow of the one which he has saved already. It would not actually matter whether he managed to protect such an alternate: resting on the keystone, it would survive even if he failed… or perhaps its destruction would simply have no real effect on the rest of the multiverse.
Either of those possibilities would nullify the moral issue of the cycles perpetuating the danger to all of the real people, (assuming that any people truly are real!) yet the necessity of Gan’s plan for Roland remains questionable.
...The problem is one cannot simply be given their humanity; it is something that one must find for themselves. ...
How is indirect manipulation really different from clear intervention? Does a rat in a maze have more free will than a rat in a cage? Could Gan really not have simply met with Roland to just tell him to repent? What is it that would have been so wrong with that, exactly? It must be something pretty serious, if casting countless illusionary universes is preferable.

However, that would be a natural problem anyway if Gan has really invested Stephen King with sweeping powers of reality control. I think it all stems from a metaphor. For King, it's unavoidable that he himself is intermediary to Roland's quest for God. How can fiction reach truth? Thus, the character's ascension is mirrored by an ongoing creative process wherein Gan decends through a man's imagination and selectively redeem worlds of fantasy from the Prim of infinite potential to expand the boundaries of existence. It's an interesting concept.

[SynysterSaint]

...The problem is one cannot simply be given their humanity; it is something that one must find for themselves. ...
How is indirect manipulation really different from clear intervention? Does a rat in a maze have more free will than a rat in a cage? Could Gan really not have simply met with Roland to just tell him to repent? What is it that would have been so wrong with that, exactly? It must be something pretty serious, if casting countless illusionary universes is preferable.

However, that would be a natural problem anyway if Gan has really invested Stephen King with sweeping powers of reality control. I think it all stems from a metaphor. For King, it's unavoidable that he himself is intermediary to Roland's quest for God. How can fiction reach truth? Thus, the character's ascension is mirrored by an ongoing creative process wherein Gan decends through a man's imagination and selectively redeem worlds of fantasy from the Prim of infinite potential to expand the boundaries of existence. It's an interesting concept.

That was beautifully spoken, pathoftheturtle.

But you see, it doesn't matter how Gan intervenes with Roland; all that matters is that he does it. Roland cannot and could not possibly find his humanity and gain salvation without some intervention. Think of it as a heroin addict, if you will. You cannot simply resolve their addiction and forgo any of the withdrawal symptoms. The best you can do is be their for them and present them the opportunity; they are the one that must go through the course of cleansing. Roland's course is much like the heroin cleansing he had to help Eddie perform; only this time, the roles are somewhat reversed. Gan needs to hold Roland's hand and show him the way to gaining salvation, but in the end it must be Roland who performs. Gan cannot grant Roland his humanity and salvation any more than Roland could erase Eddie's withdrawal symptoms.

I'll have to think some more about your last points. I hadn't thought of it that way before; well done.

[Brainslinger]

True, but then he states that the past cannot be changed in Stephen King’s world.

In King's world (the Keystone Earth) yes. I've a theory that every cycle Roland goes through intersects with a later time period of the keystone world. That might explain those things never , er, explained, like Cuthbert/Eddie turning up to save young King, or even the message left with Calvin Tower.*

I see how that would be confusing though, with the loop rather than the spiral as it creates quite a paradox. Maybe those events having happened in the Keystone world is enough and is written in stone so to speak even if those events are revised Tower-side.

Yeah, I'm not convinced either. Heh.

*Although I think that last one is more likely to be Roland's predecessors, maybe even Steven Deschain. It would be a weird twist if a ka-tet member from the previous loop were sending messages though wouldn't it?

[SynysterSaint]

It would be a weird twist if a ka-tet member from the previous loop were sending messages though wouldn't it?

Aye, that would be pretty weird. But I like it :thumbsup: