That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

[razz]

basically says that the old ones decided to destroy the old tower and to rebuild the world, and when they struck the tower with thier axes and hammers, and crack opened in the earth, and hoardes of creatures from todash or sumpin' spewed forth, free to roam and ravage the countryside.

[Kieran987645]

i bet next time he restarts he wished he had a bloody 4x4 so he could drive up to walter and shot him in his fucking head.

[Mark]

Oh yeah i 'member that.

[Matt]

I think he tried to shoot him and missed which kind of speaks to the theory.

I believe in the Tower as a physical thing but I also believe that reaching it has something to do with reaching inside yourself.

Meaning the entire thing is Roland--like Turtles, its Roland all the way down.

[Unfound One]

Whoa Matt, you're blowing my mind here. :panic:

[ManOfWesternesse]

No, it does'nt work for me.
There's more to this than just Roland.

[Matt]

Its just mine anyway --I don't expect anyone to agree. :couple:

I truly believe that the entire thing is a commentary about obsession and the recesses of the human soul. And technically, that can be a very physical place with physical people.

[daveg344]

Oh yeah, I remember something like that now. Can't remember where abouts it is tho.

Good excuse to read the series again. woo!

[Wuducynn]

No, it does'nt work for me.
There's more to this than just Roland.

Strongly agreed. A lot more.

[alinda]

No, it does'nt work for me.
There's more to this than just Roland.


Yeah theres us....:huglove:

[Wuducynn]

Yeah theres us....:huglove:

Who??

[wildfire1290]

Or maybe we can go in a completely new direction and just say that it was all a dream? ;)
But if it were really Roland that was making everything happen, why would Walter O'Dim mess with Roland throughout his whole trip, or really, mainly just in the beginning when he had his affair with Roland's mom?

[Míchéal]

I'M SORRY THIS IS IN the wrong place but i'm doin it from my phone. just noticed i won a draw woohoo.. congrats to all who won.. shall be online soon :)

[Brainslinger]

In the books, I don't think there was any mention of an 'old Tower' (that'd contradict the ending for sure.) There is mention of beam portals as substitute cyborg guardians (i.e. Shardik, Maturin et al.)

Comics spoiler:

As for actually attacking the Tower itself, that is mentioned in one of the back stories to Dark Tower: The Gunslinger Born.

[Power Surge]

So the guardians are machines, doors are machines and pretty much everything up until the Tower is a machine. Why wouldn't the Tower be a machine?

[Letti]

PS, would you mind if I added a poll to this thread?

[The Lady of Shadows]

okay, now i'm confused as hell. are we talking about walter or are we now going to talk about the tower itself?

and letti - personally, i don't mind if you add a poll but i've just been in the background of the discussion (kind of afraid to put my toe in).

[Letti]

It should be about Walter but things are so connected in this series thaz it happens quite often that new topics start to grow quickly (it's good and natural).

But yeah, there are tons of thread about the Tower so we should go there with the ideas of it.

[Woofer]

I'm going with delah as well. I don't think he's anywhere near ready to "complete" his quest, but I think he moved a lot closer this time around. I also think that each time around is not necessarily an advancement, e.g. he can fuck it up worse and move further away.

[Brainslinger]

So the guardians are machines, doors are machines and pretty much everything up until the Tower is a machine. Why wouldn't the Tower be a machine?

Have you read the last book?

There is strong indication there that it is not. Oh, and not all the doors are machines.

EDIT- Sorry Letti, I posted this before reading your post.

Still it's a response to a question above so hope I'll leave it as is... hope that's ok.

[mia/susannah]

Woofer, I agree with that. I don't think he is ready to end his quest so he keeps following the loop.

[Jean]

::wonders. Sings::

...Could you
Ask
As much
From any other man?...

[Indigo_Seven]

And I think SK's telling would be the penultimate time. Not because of the horn, but because Roland so nearly found something worth giving up the Tower for this time. In fact, the most touching moment for me was Jake's death. Roland actively decides to sacrifice himself, and thus his now utterly personal (the Tower having been saved if King doesn't die) quest, to save King INSTEAD of Jake. Ka intervenes. That was the one thing that annoyed me at that point: Ka punishes Roland at the end of the book, but earlier on he had made a definite decision to put his adopted son above his obsession. That is the cruellest thing in the series, for me.

[Indigo_Seven]

If Ka is punishing him on those terms, then surely he has redeemed himself, at least momentarily, on one of two occasions during the loop itself where he gets to choose between Tower and Love? It is significant, as well, that both times involved the same person, the love for a son, not a wife etc. Does that imply that on Roland's eventual success (we hope), he succeeds by NOT sacrificing Jake at the start of his quest?

[mia/susannah]

Very Well said. Indigo Seven.

[pathoftheturtle]

This thread makes for interesting reading.
What's happening with it? Will a poll be added?

The Tower and its nature is a subject multi-facted enough to require numerous threads, I reckon. I'll look up a quote from The Wastelands about magic and technology if this IS the place to post it. It's hard to really much discuss that subject in any part without spoilers, though. (Here are quite a few serious ones out, already, I see.)

I think that Walter gets most of his knowledge of the Tower --and most of the powers related to it that he shows-- from the Crimson King. Apparently, though, he already had the idea to climb the Tower for the chance to rule the multiverse. Might be interesting to discuss what makes these villians so sure that that'd be possible.

[skoldpadda]

I have to say that I strongly disagree with the idea that the world revolves around Roland, or that this is all an internal thing. King's premise for the story was that it would be an epic to rival the Lord of the Rings, and he accomplished that by making the scope of the story massive.

It just seems strange to me that if the tower could send Roland back in time to the desert, how come it could not save the beams from the breakers?

Unless (an idea occurs here...) what if Roland dies at the top of the tower, and is sent elsewhere like Jake was in the first book, only he finds himself in the desert? Just as Jake had no memory of his death in 1977, Roland has no memory of his quest for the tower.

[razz]

My question is how many times do you think he has repeated his quest for the tower?

every time. you think he did this twice, then let his cousin Phil have a turn?
I THINK NOT!!!

[Brice]

It just seems strange to me that if the tower could send Roland back in time to the desert, how come it could not save the beams from the breakers?



Maybe it could and it wasn't within the tower's/Gan's/Ka's will?

[wildfire1290]

It just seems strange to me that if the tower could send Roland back in time to the desert, how come it could not save the beams from the breakers?



Maybe it could and it wasn't within the tower's/Gan's/Ka's will?

But why would the tower let itself be destroyed?

[Brice]

It just seems strange to me that if the tower could send Roland back in time to the desert, how come it could not save the beams from the breakers?



Maybe it could and it wasn't within the tower's/Gan's/Ka's will?

But why would the tower let itself be destroyed?

In order to TRY to answer that, let's suppose there is some god (Gan?). A god that in part relies on some sort/degree of faith (maybe a part of ka). Let's say it also relies on a free will of sort (also maybe a part of ka). In other words let's say it needs or wants to be saved, thus it has to have some risk of destruction...a real risk of it I think. In short if it's never at risk and exists perfectly without any difficulties it becomes insignificant, meaningless, cheap, and worthless. If there is no risk of it's destruction then there is no risk of the multiverse's destruction either. There cannot be salvation if there is nothing to be saved from.

[wildfire1290]

Hmm makes sense. I'm just wondering how many followers of Gan and follow the concept of Ka are out there in Rolands world.

[Brice]

Hmm makes sense. I'm just wondering how many followers of Gan and follow the concept of Ka are out there in Rolands world.

In my mind it's comparable to Christianity (or any other major religion for that matter) in that there are many followers, many ex-followers, many piecemail followers (who pick and choose parts to believe), and many pretenders. That seems to be how things are in this world. I see no cause to believe it would be otherwise in Roland's (or any other).

[wildfire1290]

But if there are that many people why would the Tower purposely put itself in harms way?

[Son of Paul]

I think Walter knows about Roland's loop, not the specifics or even the why's. To me the "19" had nothing to do with the number of loops, just with the date of King's possible death and with his death the likely death of the Dark Tower.

I'm with you. I think he told Nort that it was all some story, that they weren't real (of course, I like to think they were real, just kinda directed a bit by King). When Walter talks of Roland being so close, and the Gunslinger actually wonders about it to himself, that signals that Walter knows something. Not all, otherwise I doubt he would have been so eager to reach the top himself.

[razz]

you have to consider the fact that Walter has tried to kill Roland and Mordred, was because they both had the insignias needed to open the way to the Tower. therefore, if he wanted to get inside the tower, he needed the key, which he didn't have.

[The Lady of Shadows]

dad a diddle
dad a dower
walter has never
been inside the tower

dad a chum
dad a chee
walter will never
get the key

[razz]

:rofl:
nice, turtlesong.

[razz]

seeing as it's an endless loop?

[Letti]

If you ask me, yes.

[Mark]

I believe it's the beginning of that loop, so, yes, it's a beginning.

[Mark]

Do you think Roland's cycle always starts in the desert or not?

[Ka-tet]

I belive so, although i dont really think there is any solid evidance i dont think its a conincidence the first book starts there and the last ends there. But i do think events before the desert can be changed. As well as events after, the loop has to end somtime.

[razz]

just a thought, especially since W&G shows the beginning of the quest. in mejis.

[razz]

almost definitely.

[Odetta]

yes

[John_and_Yoko]

Let's not forget the fact that the loop starts over again in the coda to Volume VII. I actually felt a need to re-read the first subchapter of The Gunslinger after I came to the end.

Certainly in the case of the revised and expanded edition, that's the case....

[jayson]

i think yes. i believe the looping always begins in the desert though what comes after, in my opinion, is not always the same.

[Brainslinger]

I think things in the past can change too, but I think Roland always loops back to the desert. The end of the book strongly suggested this was always the case.

[Matt]

I suppose an argument could be made that he gets closer every time. We only know for sure he started in the desert this time.

However, I think the Tower has the ability to shape Roland's further back in his past than the desert. Meaning, like LOST, nothing is set in stone. :lol:

Because we are dealing with the lynch pin of time and space here.

[Matt]

Depends on what you mean by "the beginning". Its all a perspective thing after all. For me, the first book is the beginning for sure.

The beginning for Roland would be impossible to pinpoint imo.

The beginning for Roland's story is whatever Gan decides it is at this point. We learned in the very first book that Roland was destined for the Tower but there was so much more we didn't know. Learned more in W&G and those who consider the comics cannon are learning even more.

But who's to say its even the same loop?

And can we even say for sure that Roland's memories of Mejis and Susan in book 4 were even part of the same loop we were in?

One assumes his memories of Mejis are set regardless of the loop--the other assumes it could all be changed.

[MonteGss]

That's a great point Matt.

However, I believe it always starts in the desert because like it mentions in DT7, the desert is where he first realizes/believes he will reach the Tower. :)

[razz]

perhaps every time he gets it right he moves up?

[Mark]

perhaps every time he gets it right he moves up?

This means he can get it wrong? How would he do that? What does he have to do to get it right? I'd have assumed, he's been getting it wrong all this time, hence the loop.

[razz]

maybe he wasn't supposed to slaughter Those in Tull, which affected his quest in the long run.maybe he should've caught Walter before He reached the mountain. i don't know.

[mia/susannah]

I believe Rolands quest always starts in the dessert. I think that is definately where he starts to believe that he will finally reach the Dark Tower

[skoldpadda]

I'm hoping that this question has been settled before, but I figured I'd ask because I couldn't think of a search term with which to find an old thread.

When Roland gets sent back to the desert, do his physical damage and age accompany him?

During the 7 books, he lost a few fingers and toes, aged 10 years in his long sleep, and spent another year or two on the road. When Roland re-starts his loop, is he still sans-digits and old, or does he simply return to his former condition with a new horn and a small inkling of what had just happened?

[Ves'Ka Gan]

Hm. I'm in the middle of a re-read right now, and I'm needing to get a new copy of Book IV. So it's not brand new in my mind, but I am *pretty* sure he is whole again.

[mia/susannah]

that is a good question. I think he pretty much starts his loops at the same age as the loop before.

[The Lady of Shadows]

i think he starts where he was at the beginning of the last loop, which would ultimately be at the beginning of the very first loop, cosmologically speaking. therefore, he would have all his fingers and be the proper age when he first started pursing walter across the desert. imo.

[ladysai]

I'm hoping that this question has been settled before, but I figured I'd ask because I couldn't think of a search term with which to find an old thread.

When Roland gets sent back to the desert, do his physical damage and age accompany him?

During the 7 books, he lost a few fingers and toes, aged 10 years in his long sleep, and spent another year or two on the road. When Roland re-starts his loop, is he still sans-digits and old, or does he simply return to his former condition with a new horn and a small inkling of what had just happened?

I'm also thinking that he starts each loop at the same age and in the same physical condition.
Kinda hard to truly start over if you are still carrying the experiences of a past with you.

As far as the aging ten years in his sleep after his palaver with Walter...

didnt Walter say (maybe in DT7) that he had bleached a skeleton and left it for Roland to discover after he left? I dont think there was a long strech of years during his sleep, just a long night.

[John_and_Yoko]

Then how did Roland age ten years?

[ladysai]

Then how did Roland age ten years?

I dont believe that happened.
(Mind the mind trap)
Or, I completely misunderstood a section of DT7.
Take your pick.:lol:

[Letti]

good question skoldpadda
I think his body gets younger and whole again but his spirit and mind aren't the same.

[Jean]

it is quite clear from the text that his fingers are all in place; but, since he has the horn, we don't really know what else had happened to him before we see him starting that next loop, and what more different damage he might have suffered. For all we know, he might have a slipped disk, or nail fungus, whatever.

[alinda]

Very interesting question, of course I am now questioning
if any of those things happened to him at all now. Life
is so illusionary to begin with, I mean when Roland reaches for
the door knob (latch, whatever) he has digits missing etc..
and as he emerges on the otherside of said door, he's whole?
Maybe what he's lacking be it youth or fingers & toes its all
in his perception of his self, do you see what I mean?

Some people get in an accident and are paralized for life
from their injuries, some have the same indications and
prognosis and yet they determine to get up and walk again
what is the difference in these two if not only their perception
of their selves, and their situation?

[Ka-tet]

perhaps every time he gets it right he moves up?

This means he can get it wrong? How would he do that? What does he have to do to get it right? I'd have assumed, he's been getting it wrong all this time, hence the loop.

I belive roland only has to get it right once, then he will reach the end of the loop and the room at the top.

To get it right i belive that he must realise that things in this world are more important than the tower, the people in his ka-tet. For example at the end of the first book he forsakes jake in the name of the tower, i dont belive he would do that again. I belive given the choice roland would have died to let jake live(but thats for another thread ><)

[Tiffany]

I suppose an argument could be made that he gets closer every time. We only know for sure he started in the desert this time.

However, I think the Tower has the ability to shape Roland's further back in his past than the desert. Meaning, like LOST, nothing is set in stone. :lol:

Because we are dealing with the lynch pin of time and space here.

I voted yes because it was my knee-jerk reaction but you make a good point, Matt.

[Woofer]

I suppose an argument could be made that he gets closer every time. We only know for sure he started in the desert this time.

However, I think the Tower has the ability to shape Roland's further back in his past than the desert. Meaning, like LOST, nothing is set in stone. :lol:

Because we are dealing with the lynch pin of time and space here.

Get out of my head!

[LemurJones]

I think that Roland always starts in A desert. I don't think he necessarily goes through THE desert, the ONE desert where everything that happens stays happened, because there would never be any point in learning or trying to do better. This makes me think that Roland has never really ever been in the world where the Tower truly resides, because I don't think it would let him screw up on the one level where there's no restart button. So that also explains, in my mind, why his past is slightly different at the end of the 7th book.

[LemurJones]

Probably he has all his fingers and is whatever age he thinks he should be. It's his soul that he's questing for, not his body, and that's all just frosting on the hideous, gritty, bad-man cake of Roland's ka.

[LemurJones]

it's the beginning of where we start reading it.

Roland's beginning, of his own self, was when he was born.

The actual quest? The story of the quest? Every single thing that went into the formation of Roland's need to find the tower, including the tower itself?

That story started at the beginning of Time. It goes on forever.

[The Lady of Shadows]

if it's a loop, a cycle, then is there really a beginning? is there really an end? or is it more like a mobius strip that just keeps endlessly repeating until someone cuts it somewhere. . . .

i think for all intents and purposes, it begins where ever we want it to begin. whether that's with "the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed"; with roland, cuthbert and alain in mejis; or with roland, eddie, jake, and susannah on blaine (considering how each [group] got together as backstory).

[John_and_Yoko]

if it's a loop, a cycle, then is there really a beginning? is there really an end? or is it more like a mobius strip that just keeps endlessly repeating until someone cuts it somewhere. . . .

i think for all intents and purposes, it begins where ever we want it to begin. whether that's with "the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed"; with roland, cuthbert and alain in mejis; or with roland, eddie, jake, and susannah on blaine (considering how each [group] got together as backstory).

But then aren't you talking about before they even came to Lud at all? Because they got together before River Crossing, even....

[Ka-tet]

I think that Roland always starts in A desert. I don't think he necessarily goes through THE desert, the ONE desert where everything that happens stays happened, because there would never be any point in learning or trying to do better. This makes me think that Roland has never really ever been in the world where the Tower truly resides, because I don't think it would let him screw up on the one level where there's no restart button. So that also explains, in my mind, why his past is slightly different at the end of the 7th book.

Thats a very interesting outlook sai.

[Matt]

This makes me think that Roland has never really ever been in the world where the Tower truly resides,

Very interesting theory there, we could start a whole thread one weather or not Roland has ever actually seen the Tower.

[SaiCmont19]

Technically you could say the reader doesn't join him at the beginning of his loop.

The other title for the gunslinger is "Resumption", possibly meaning the reader is simply resuming Rolands tale at the point where WE (not Roland) began?

[Matt]

That's pretty much the way I see it. The "beginning" can only be marked from the eye of the reader.

[The Lady of Shadows]

if it's a loop, a cycle, then is there really a beginning? is there really an end? or is it more like a mobius strip that just keeps endlessly repeating until someone cuts it somewhere. . . .

i think for all intents and purposes, it begins where ever we want it to begin. whether that's with "the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed"; with roland, cuthbert and alain in mejis; or with roland, eddie, jake, and susannah on blaine (considering how each [group] got together as backstory).

But then aren't you talking about before they even came to Lud at all? Because they got together before River Crossing, even....


???????

[razz]

if it's a loop, a cycle, then is there really a beginning? is there really an end? or is it more like a mobius strip that just keeps endlessly repeating until someone cuts it somewhere. . . .

i think for all intents and purposes, it begins where ever we want it to begin. whether that's with "the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed"; with roland, cuthbert and alain in mejis; or with roland, eddie, jake, and susannah on blaine (considering how each [group] got together as backstory).

makes sense.

[John_and_Yoko]

???????

Or am I missing something...?

[razz]

does anyone else see the irony of the end of the line for each 'slinger?

[LadyHitchhiker]

The answer is yes and no.

Oooooooh how zen of me, but yet how true.

[The Lady of Shadows]

if it's a loop, a cycle, then is there really a beginning? is there really an end? or is it more like a mobius strip that just keeps endlessly repeating until someone cuts it somewhere. . . .

i think for all intents and purposes, it begins where ever we want it to begin. whether that's with "the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed"; with roland, cuthbert and alain in mejis; or with roland, eddie, jake, and susannah on blaine (considering how each [group] got together as backstory).

But then aren't you talking about before they even came to Lud at all? Because they got together before River Crossing, even....


???????



???????

Or am I missing something...?


no. i was looking for more in your post. i thought you were going somewhere and then it just kind of stopped. i was saying that the entire jouney was a mobius strip and it had no beginning and no ending. you said i was talking about before they even got to lud at all; which, in a sense i am since there is no beginning and no ending. so i was wondering if there was more to your thought.

[SaiCmont19]

The way I look at it, The Gunslinger is the beginning as SK intended the reader to percieve it.

[The Lady of Shadows]

maybe he wasn't supposed to slaughter Those in Tull, which affected his quest in the long run.maybe he should've caught Walter before He reached the mountain. i don't know.

RAZZ! i think i'm in love with you.

seriously, though. i think this might be an interesting area to pursue. roland says that he knows that tull is a trap, yet he stays there anyway. why? what would've happened had he left. would he have caught up with walter sooner? interesting. interesting.

[The Lady of Shadows]

Probably he has all his fingers and is whatever age he thinks he should be. It's his soul that he's questing for, not his body, and that's all just frosting on the hideous, gritty, bad-man cake of Roland's ka.

lemurs have such a way with words. :)

[alinda]

:clap: exactly

[The Lady of Shadows]

just a suggestion:
would the thread starter mind if a manager or moderator edited the title of the thread? it's not very clear and i think we would have more discussion if it were. say thankya.

[Letti]

If we make it clearer it will become a spoiler. But if you have any foxy ideas share them with us.

[The Lady of Shadows]

does it matter if it's a spoiler? it's in a spoiler area, with the word spoiler in the title.

but just in case: how about roland & the desert or something similar?

[Letti]

You are right, it's a spoiler area but people can see it when they click on the "Unread Posts" button and they can read a very serious spoiler without opening aspoiler thread.

[The Lady of Shadows]

ah. that never even occurred to me. :stupidturtle: :scared:

[Ka-tet]

maybe he wasn't supposed to slaughter Those in Tull, which affected his quest in the long run.maybe he should've caught Walter before He reached the mountain. i don't know.

RAZZ! i think i'm in love with you.

seriously, though. i think this might be an interesting area to pursue. roland says that he knows that tull is a trap, yet he stays there anyway. why? what would've happened had he left. would he have caught up with walter sooner? interesting. interesting.

I dont think its possible for Roland to reach the man in black before the mountain, even if THIS time roland is going to reach the room at the top, i belive he has to have the palaver with the man in black. It was Ka after all.

[Brice]

I dont think its possible for walter to reach the man in black before the mountain,


Oh, I think walter can reach the man in black rather quickly. :P

[Ka-tet]

Thanks for the notice brice, i changed it xD

[The Lady of Shadows]

but what about razz's point that maybe he wasn't supposed to massacre the people in tull. the poll (which we are all having fun with) aside, maybe that is one of the things that has to change. like i said, he knew it was a trap. he said he knew it was a trap. and he stayed there anyway. why?

[Matt]

I think not killing Tull and leaving when he could have would play a huge part in the eventual outcome.

Why did he stay? I'm not sure. I remember asking myself that question when I read it again recently.

[The Lady of Shadows]

I think not killing Tull and leaving when he could have would play a huge part in the eventual outcome.

Why did he stay? I'm not sure. I remember asking myself that question when I read it again recently.

how could it play a part in the eventual outcome? you mean like someone from tull popping up somewhere further along and fucking things up? maybe sheb? or kennerly?

[razz]

think about it. if he left tull early, he could have caught Walter before the mountain. in that case, jake wouldn't die, Susannah wouldn't be raped by a demon. Roland might not have lost his hand on the beach with jake there. in that case he could have killed Walter/Flagg in "Oz". Mia wouldn't exist in the story. Mordred wouldn't be born, etc...

[Letti]

ah. that never even occurred to me. :stupidturtle: :scared:

Nevermind, I am spoiler-junkie, that's it. :)
(Anyway I have edited the title of the thread now it's more detailed.)

So... Roland's body is just the puppet. That's inside that's what matters.
You know like in the Little Prince: "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye."

[Letti]

I suppose an argument could be made that he gets closer every time. We only know for sure he started in the desert this time.

Just like in a play station game... sounds interesting.
Anyway I think he always starts in the desert. He can get a new chance but he can't get everything (he can't get closer and closer)... because this whole loop thing it's a rescue and a damn at the same time.
Moreover I feel the desert is a really hard symbol in Roland's life that's why he has to start there all the time.

[obscurejude]

So... Roland's body is just the puppet. That's inside that's what matters.
You know like in the Little Prince: "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye."

I think you're right in regards to the series Letti, but I have a real problem with the body not being given an account epistemologically. Like my post about the doors on the beach, my concern rests in Descartes' notion that we are simply "ghosts inhabiting a machine." With that paradigm, virtue is only idealogical, and a vast dichotomy between the body and the soul is created. I'm not good with dichotomies, but I think you are right dear. :rose:

[obscurejude]

There is a lot of religious imagery in the Gunslinger that I think plays a part in this question, though I'm not sure its explicit.

The desert is an apotheosis (Biblical temptation of Christ)

There is a sacrifice- Jake (Even Walter calls him Roland's Isaac)

They have palaver at a golgotha "Place of the Skull"- The Greek name of Calvary where Christ was crucified.

Jesus also began his public ministry at age 30. There isn't much about him before that time, except in Luke 2 where he is around 12-14. The only account we have of Roland is a similar age in Wizard and Glass, and then not much else until he's an adult.

I think all of these things are connected, but I'm still working on how exactly. As a religion/philosophy major in college, the symbolism was noticeable to me at every turn of the narrative. I (and Jean) really think that Roland is very similar to medieval portraits of saint hood. Browning's Roland could also be interpreted this way.

[skoldpadda]

Thanks for the edit, Letti. Glad to see that the thread has taken off.

This is a tough question to answer, I guess, because throughout the books people refer to how old Roland is. However, nothing (or very little) from his past is given between the battle of Jericho Hill up until the beginning of The Gunslinger. The only passage I can think of that refers directly to what he was doing with that time is when Roland was explaining Eddie, Susannah, and Jake that the world is "growing" and that it took him the equivalent of 20 years to reach the sea.

So wait a second. We have a gunslinger who's incredibly old, but a series of books about his life leaves a gap that could be anywhere from 20 to 40 years. Perhaps he's been looping for that long? Maybe the quest happened the first time when he was a very young man and he's been getting older since.

The obvious logistical flaw here would be that Roland's lack of digits would lead him to ask where they went, and thereby recall his quest.

I don't know. I've confused myself too far to go back. That's why I posted the question here.

[Ka-tet]

There is a lot of religious imagery in the Gunslinger that I think plays a part in this question, though I'm not sure its explicit.

The desert is an apotheosis (Biblical temptation of Christ)

There is a sacrifice- Jake (Even Walter calls him Roland's Isaac)

They have palaver at a golgotha "Place of the Skull"- The Greek name of Calvary where Christ was crucified.

Jesus also began his public ministry at age 30. There isn't much about him before that time, except in Luke 2 where he is around 12-14. The only account we have of Roland is a similar age in Wizard and Glass, and then not much else until he's an adult.

I think all of these things are connected, but I'm still working on how exactly. As a religion/philosophy major in college, the symbolism was noticeable to me at every turn of the narrative. I (and Jean) really think that Roland is very similar to medieval portraits of saint hood. Browning's Roland could also be interpreted this way.


Thats very very interesting, i would very much like to hear more on this. Bring us more soon please OJ!

[Brainslinger]

I don't think the length of time mentioned includes the loop. I.e. We have the 20 year journey that happened before the loop. The later books confuse things a bit more by stating that Roland has been wandering for thousands of years, but I think much of that was due to the irregularities in time, i.e. time speeding up/slowing down etc. And again I think a lot of that happened before the loop.

Of course, if we include the loop as well, he has been wandering much longer. However he is unaware (except possibly somewhere in his undermind), and on his return to the desert he is essentially reset back to the age and physical condition he was then. Just as well or he could end up dropping the horn again. Wouldn't that be ironic?

[LadyHitchhiker]

This makes me think that Roland has never really ever been in the world where the Tower truly resides,

Very interesting theory there, we could start a whole thread one weather or not Roland has ever actually seen the Tower.

i love new concepts...

[LadyHitchhiker]

But as for my vote, I think the answer is yes and no..

Anybody ever see the movie "The Outsiders"? that story reminds me a little of Roland and his quest....

[LadyHitchhiker]

I wondered this too..

Does he become whole again?

[fernandito]

Then how did Roland age ten years?

During their palaver at the Golgotha, when Walter was sending visions of the Tower/Multiverse to Roland, they actually slipped out of the space/time continuim (sp?). So a night became 10 years for the gunslinger.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

I think Walter says "The room at the top of the Tower is empty...I know it is" the same way someone would say "I know there is no God".

He believes it, at least on the outer level, and it is an unsettling thing to say to someone who feels differently. Walter is a greasy cat. Let's not forget that!

[The Lady of Shadows]

NICE title lettie! :)

[theBeamisHome]

I just finished the story last night for the first time... and while I wasn't completely disappointed I'm led to speculate on why.. And I just realized (just now really) that throughout the whole series Roland continuously mentions being damned. And I imagine that's why he's thrown on this loop. But the first thing I thought was that maybe it's another classical story of hubris... like Oedipus Rex. Roland had the audacity to believe that he would be able to reach the top of the Tower when even the "immortal" Red King couldn't. He tore down everything in his path and even condemmed quite a few to death who were loyal to him and his purpose. I could almost believe that he is in Purgatory... Which I read in The Divine Comedy can have punishments just as bad if not worse than Hell. Him being given the horn (and for all we know he's given one more thing he needs each time he makes the trip) signifies progress made.

So if this is the case... who keeps sending him back? Do we think it's the Tower itself? My ever so humble opinion is that it is Gan himself that keeps pushing Roland back. There are many things that Roland could be being punished for... but it seems to me that his pride is his downfall.

I had something else (that I thought was pretty good) but it's slipped my mind. I'd love to hear (read) your comments though... Maybe it'll come back to me.

Ah! I remember... I know this is a big deal but I do think I remember Roland or someone saying in the book that Ka doesn't control all... so....

[Daghain]

I'd be willing to believe it's Gan, as well. I think he has to keep making the loop until he gets it right, and the horn is a sign he did at least something right.

[theBeamisHome]

Maybe showing love and compassion for his new ka-tet was something he did right?

[Daghain]

Maybe. I mean, he does talk later in the series about how he has learned to care about other people. Maybe that was one of the things he needed to learn to move on. That would tie in with the horn, kind of, because his friend Cuthbert had it last.

[Ves'Ka Gan]

I said no. I think that its possible, and I think the two loops we know of started there, but I am not sure this is the case everytime. If anything after the Desert is in his control to change, and the things before the desert change, too...I think the loop could start further back. I am not sure it could start too much further forward though...

[Darkthoughts]

This is one of a multitude of reasons that I think DT is so great, because you can reread it countless times and discover something new - or reread to focus on a particular point or concept and discover new depths in the story.

The first time I read the series, I must admit that I didn't give much thought to the fact that Roland's feelings of guilt and damnation were foreshadowing the ending, I was just so caught up in the more immediate gratification I got from the adventure.

When I finished book 7 I lent it to my sister straight away because I had to discuss the end with someone who loved the series as much as me, but also because she has a very different way of looking at things than I do. She was not at all surprised by the loop and said, "There really wasn't any other way it could have ended." And I then thought....of course! :lol:

Yes, I'd agree that it is Gan sending Roland back each time, it almost makes me wonder - talking of purgatory - if the Tower is never infact in danger each time, that it was endangered the first time Roland completed the quest - but that he achieved his goal in such a ruthless manner that it contradicted the basic principle of The White, so although Gan had needed Roland's help, he almost couldn't accept it in the manner in which it had been given. So, at that point in time (that Roland originally climbed to the top of the Tower) Gan removed Roland and this passage of time, encapsulated it and stowed it out of real time, and forces Roland to repeat it until he gets it right, ie: in the true fashion of a gunslinger of The White, rather than mirroring the agents of the Red.

[theBeamisHome]

hmmm.... i like that... only if everyone that Roland meets on his subsequent times on the loop isn't real... Like Gan creates another universe for Roland to roam around in and try again. That way Roland is the only one being retested.. and that means that the Tower isn't in danger in the real universe.. but i guess that is what would make it his purgatory, right? and what do we think happens when Roland does get it right? does he reach the top room and discover Gan behind the door? or is him getting it right not pursuing it so fiercely at all? i'm more inclined to believe that Roland would succeed if he stopped sacrificing everyone to get to the Tower. which could mean that he would get there anyway for doing the right thing... or that his ka is not to get there but, as you said, act in the way of the White... stand and be true.

[Daghain]

Lisa always comes up with some good ideas. :)

[damiano]

I am going with yes, it always starts in the desert since as several other people mentioned, it's suggested that is the case.

But this bothers me too. If this is indeed the Resumption point, how did he end up with the horn this time? That implies a change from years/decade/centuries earlier (since time is funny). Further, if the ultimate end is Redemption, it seems that the overwhelming majority of Roland's sins occur long before that point in the desert (Tull, matricide, etc.). The succeeded events, with the exception of dropping Jake appear to have been mostly a redemptive path already. One could even argue that dropping Jake was necessary for redemption in a twisted way.

To me, Roland's choice was made when he chose not to save Susan. It's clearly stated- he chose the Tower and renounced her to a life with someone else (before he learned the real consequences of that decision). Once that decision was made, the real atrocities and consequences began and continued because the only other choice was to "cry off". The only other possible changing point I could see is if he were to stop after Blue Heaven and the beams were restored, but I doubt even were he able to cry off then for his own purposes, he would be cursed by the knowledge of all those who died so that he could get to the Tower.

Every time I read these books, it feels like there is a simple point I continually miss; something that should be obvious and apparent that ties it all together. I suppose, like Roland, I am doomed to endless resumption until I figure it out. Maybe that, in itself, is the point.

[LadyHitchhiker]

"it had been years, centuries, milleniums since he had heard the high speech"

this is a quote of when our dear Lazarus out of Gunslinger goes over and speaks to Roland at the honky tonk in Tull.

Has Roland really been cycling this long and this is a burst of memory blurting through his head all of a sudden?

[Brainslinger]

That wasn't the loop, I don't think. First of all, that event in Tull happened before the loop. Secondly, if it was a memory from the last cycle, it would have only been a relatively short period of time from his own point of view since he last heard the High speech, if you think about it. (I'm assuming the Tower spoke to him in the high speech before he went through the door?) That being said, the memory could be so vague that he might seem longer to him, so there is that.

I think he was just referring to how long he had been on the trail, i.e. how long it was since he had split with others who spoke the high speech. It could literally be that long considering the softness of time in the world at that point (although he probably wouldn't have experienced it, as time would speed up or jump around him.) I think it's an exaggeration, just to show how long it felt to him.

[Sam]

The world had moved on. Time had as well. My guess is that by the time we meet Roland in The Gunslinger, he may have been on his quest for centuries, even millenia.

[LadyHitchhiker]

How do we know this happened before the loop? How do we know this is his first loop?

[The Lady of Shadows]

That wasn't the loop, I don't think. First of all, that event in Tull happened before the loop. Secondly, if it was a memory from the last cycle, it would have only been a relatively short period of time from his own point of view since he last heard the High speech, if you think about it. (I'm assuming the Tower spoke to him in the high speech before he went through the door?) That being said, the memory could be so vague that he might seem longer to him, so there is that.

I think he was just referring to how long he had been on the trail, i.e. how long it was since he had split with others who spoke the high speech. It could literally be that long considering the softness of time in the world at that point (although he probably wouldn't have experienced it, as time would speed up or jump around him.) I think it's an exaggeration, just to show how long it felt to him.

aren't you assuming that the tower chooses to restart his loop at the same time, each time? maybe he looped 1,000 times before and each of those times started right before he entered tull. maybe it was 10,000 or 100,000 and they all started right before he entered tull. and each time he fucked it up in the exact same manner so the tower gave up and said "well, he's never going to get that right. let's just move along."

[Brainslinger]

aren't you assuming that the tower chooses to restart his loop at the same time, each time? maybe he looped 1,000 times before and each of those times started right before he entered tull. maybe it was 10,000 or 100,000 and they all started right before he entered tull. and each time he fucked it up in the exact same manner so the tower gave up and said "well, he's never going to get that right. let's just move along."

That's possible, but yes I was assuming that he always starts in the same place. The end of The Dark Tower, just before he goes through the door, strongly suggests this is the case to me. I.e. he is always returned to that point where he could foresee the end... but after he has already completed those deeds that damned him, (or not completed those deeds that would save him, in the case of picking up the horn) hence his punishment of repetition. Of course we know that he did pick it up this time (whether it was a gift of Gan or an alteration in his past, from his point of view he remembers picking it up.) so the Tower/Gan/ka is not without mercy... but I think he always starts there.

I'll have a look at that section of the story though, see if I can find proof of this. I accept that there's plenty of leeway for interpretation.

[Letti]

I think he was just referring to how long he had been on the trail, i.e. how long it was since he had split with others who spoke the high speech.

It was my first thought as well.

[The Lady of Shadows]

btw, we might want to change the name of this thread or be visited by hoards of lance armstrong fans! :lol:

[LadyHitchhiker]

Bring on the Lance-fans!!!! :pirate:

[The Lady of Shadows]

:wtf:

[LadyHitchhiker]

We'll show them the truth of true cycling! :D

:panic:

[Chap]

Sorry if this thread has been made before. :panic:

I'm just curious to see when all of you realized that Roland would have to do the whole thing over again?
For me it was when he thought about his guns and heard a voice in his head saying "you'll see them again soon" (or something like that, I don't have the book in front of me).
That made me stop reading and go "what the... he's not going to have to start over, is he?"

-The Chap

[Wuducynn]

Sorry if this thread has been made before. :panic:

I'm just curious to see when all of you realized that Roland would have to do the whole thing over again?
For me it was when he thought about his guns and heard a voice in his head saying "you'll see them again soon" (or something like that, I don't have the book in front of me).
That made me stop reading and go "what the... he's not going to have to start over, is he?"

-The Chap

Great idea for a thread. I (thankfully) didn't know until he stepped through the last door.

[SigTauGimp]

I agree...this is a good idea for a thread...as for myself, I didn't 'fully' realize what was going to happen until that door opened...but I can say that I had a bit of....hhmm...I guess the only way to say it is that it was like, an itch, in the back of my mind. It first started sometime after the tarot reading. I think nearly the exact moment the itch started was the "Death, but not for you, gunslinger."(pseudo-paraphrasing) line...something about it just tickled my brain, I suppose.

[sarah]

Sorry if this thread has been made before. :panic:

I'm just curious to see when all of you realized that Roland would have to do the whole thing over again?
For me it was when he thought about his guns and heard a voice in his head saying "you'll see them again soon" (or something like that, I don't have the book in front of me).
That made me stop reading and go "what the... he's not going to have to start over, is he?"

-The Chap

Great idea for a thread. I (thankfully) didn't know until he stepped through the last door.


yes same here. I stayed out of all the speculation and theory threads and I really really tried not to think about "how it will end". I did all that so that I could truly be surprised....and I was.

[mystima]

it was during the moment when King wrote (paraphrasing) if you liked what you read and don't want to get angry then don't read further...i was like oh crap no, something bad is going to happen.:shoot:

[Chap]

Sorry if this thread has been made before. :panic:

I'm just curious to see when all of you realized that Roland would have to do the whole thing over again?
For me it was when he thought about his guns and heard a voice in his head saying "you'll see them again soon" (or something like that, I don't have the book in front of me).
That made me stop reading and go "what the... he's not going to have to start over, is he?"

-The Chap

Great idea for a thread. I (thankfully) didn't know until he stepped through the last door.


yes same here. I stayed out of all the speculation and theory threads and I really really tried not to think about "how it will end". I did all that so that I could truly be surprised....and I was.

Maybe I've misunderstood what you ment, but:

I didn't mean "when did you read the spoilers", though. Let me try to rephrase my original question:
When, in the book(s), did you know/think that Roland would have to start over?
obviously if you've read spoilers you could know without even opening a book :)

[Wuducynn]

Maybe I've misunderstood what you ment, but:

I didn't mean "when did you read the spoilers", though. Let me try to rephrase my original question:
When, in the book(s), did you know/think that Roland would have to start over?
obviously if you've read spoilers you could know without even opening a book :)

I can't speak for Maerlyn of course but I think you did misunderstand what she meant. She's just saying that, along with me, didn't know until Roland stepped through the last door, that he would have to start over. She was just saying that she stayed away from all the threads on .Net to avoid being spoiled for it. Same here by the way. I am so glad I didn't know or even catch an inkling until the final moment of him stepping through the door.

[Chap]

Yeah All_Hail, I know :)
sorry if I sounded a bit harsh there in my previous post, I was in a hurry :rose:

[sarah]

thanks, all_hail that is what I meant. :couple:

no worries, Chap, you didn't sound harsh. :D

[stone, rose, unfound door]

Maybe I've misunderstood what you ment, but:

I didn't mean "when did you read the spoilers", though. Let me try to rephrase my original question:
When, in the book(s), did you know/think that Roland would have to start over?
obviously if you've read spoilers you could know without even opening a book :)

I can't speak for Maerlyn of course but I think you did misunderstand what she meant. She's just saying that, along with me, didn't know until Roland stepped through the last door, that he would have to start over. She was just saying that she stayed away from all the threads on .Net to avoid being spoiled for it. Same here by the way. I am so glad I didn't know or even catch an inkling until the final moment of him stepping through the door.

I'm glad to see not everyone apart from me knew the end long before it happened. Like All_Hail and Maerlyn, I didn't know anything about the loop until the very end. I had actually read spoilers before DT5 (I don't know how the people who said there was a loop could have known it at that point...) speaking about that theory (of Roland starting again with a missing item) and I thought it was impossible because it didn't make sense. When I read it, though, I found that it not only made sense but also that those people had found the ending about 4 years before it was written ! 0_o

[Wuducynn]

Yeah All_Hail, I know :)
sorry if I sounded a bit harsh there in my previous post, I was in a hurry :rose:

Oh that was nothing. I'm okay with harsh. If you thought that was harsh, you ain't seen nothing yet. :harrier:

[LadyHitchhiker]

I didn't. It was a complete and utter shock to me.

[Sam]

I didn't know until he walked through the door. I admit I was angry at first and thought we had been cheated from a resolution, but after some time and thought about it I realized that this was probably the best resolution the Roland could have had. It kept with his character and his need to grow as a person. After much reflection, I think this was a great ending.

[Doc_Gamecock]

From what I remember I can't say that I knew until he stepped through the door. I read it a while back though and feel I probably would have caught on earlier now, but it was a surprise. I really liked it because I felt as if from its simplicity came its greatness.

[Chap]

interesting replies, thanks all :thumbsup:
looking back at it, we should all have seen it coming really. all that talk of Ka being a wheel that always ends up where it started etc.
But of course "hindsight is always 20/20, or however that saying goes.

as I've said before, I loved the ending! (CODA)
imagine if king decided to update all the DT books, and publish them as a "next loop" kinda thing. the story would be similar, but now roland would start of with the horn (which could possibly affect/change the story somehow).

[Diggity Of The Eld]

I didn't know until he got pulled into the door.

[Wuducynn]

He got pushed through. He tried to go back but couldn't.

[stone, rose, unfound door]

interesting replies, thanks all :thumbsup:
looking back at it, we should all have seen it coming really. all that talk of Ka being a wheel that always ends up where it started etc.
But of course "hindsight is always 20/20, or however that saying goes.

as I've said before, I loved the ending! (CODA)
imagine if king decided to update all the DT books, and publish them as a "next loop" kinda thing. the story would be similar, but now roland would start of with the horn (which could possibly affect/change the story somehow).

That would be interesting and we can only hope that they'll develop this later in the comics :) I only hope the ka-tet changes this time, even if I liked them all so much.

[Letti]

interesting replies, thanks all :thumbsup:
looking back at it, we should all have seen it coming really. all that talk of Ka being a wheel that always ends up where it started etc.
But of course "hindsight is always 20/20, or however that saying goes.

as I've said before, I loved the ending! (CODA)
imagine if king decided to update all the DT books, and publish them as a "next loop" kinda thing. the story would be similar, but now roland would start of with the horn (which could possibly affect/change the story somehow).

That would be interesting and we can only hope that they'll develop this later in the comics :) I only hope the ka-tet changes this time, even if I liked them all so much.

If you liked them a lot why would you like to see a new one? To get a new story?

[shekter]

I didn't realize until the very end. Before the final book, I was reading people's thoughts upon there being a loop, but I just shrugged them off. No way would it happen.

[BillyxRansom]

interesting replies, thanks all :thumbsup:
looking back at it, we should all have seen it coming really. all that talk of Ka being a wheel that always ends up where it started etc.
But of course "hindsight is always 20/20, or however that saying goes.

as I've said before, I loved the ending! (CODA)
imagine if king decided to update all the DT books, and publish them as a "next loop" kinda thing. the story would be similar, but now roland would start of with the horn (which could possibly affect/change the story somehow).

That would be interesting and we can only hope that they'll develop this later in the comics :) I only hope the ka-tet changes this time, even if I liked them all so much.

If you liked them a lot why would you like to see a new one? To get a new story?

This would personally be my reason for wanting a new situation.

[KaLikeAWheel]

Good question!

I didn't know until he opened that final door. I try not to overanalyze what I read. I don't like figuring the ending out until I get there. I didn't even come looking for any Dark Tower stuff on the web until after I'd finished reading DT:VII for fear of accidentally reading a spoiler. But maybe I subconsciously knew, because KaLikeAWheel has been my prefered internet handle since the first time I read the line about Ka being like a wheel.

Donna

[Wuducynn]

I didn't even come looking for any Dark Tower stuff on the web until after I'd finished reading DT:VII for fear of accidentally reading a spoiler.
Donna


Smart move.

[flaggwalkstheline]

It caught me off guard, completley offguard spit-take moment
the only thing comparable to that ending is the last 20 minutes of fightclub and that wasnt nearly as tragicWHOAH YOU JUST FIRED A GUN AT YOUR IMAGINARY FRIEND INTO A TRUCK FILLED WITH 400 GALLONS OF NITRO-GLYCERIN!

[Brainslinger]

I didn't even come looking for any Dark Tower stuff on the web until after I'd finished reading DT:VII for fear of accidentally reading a spoiler.
Donna


Smart move.

Yeah. I mostly avoided the spoiler threads on DT.net, (the site I visited in the old days.) However, I spent quite a bit of time on the speculation threads, and I read about 'the loop theory'. (I think they were clued in by that sequence at the start of the revised Gunslinger where Roland had that 'light headed' moment.)

The moment Roland got a wiff of alkali when the door of the Tower opened, I realized.... they were right. He's looping back to the desert! I don't think I would have guessed it if I hadn't read the speculation threads though. So in a sense I was spoiled, even though it was just theory at the time.

The story as a whole was great though, and it wasn't really ruined for me. There was plenty of other stuff to keep me happy. I sometimes wish I'd used a bit more self control though. Part of the fun of these forums is speculation though right?

[BROWNINGS CHILDE]

I didnt expect the loop. On a different note though, From the "Death, but not for you gunslinger" line. I felt strongly early on, that Roland would reach the Tower all alone.

[Jean]

I didnt expect the loop. On a different note though, From the "Death, but not for you gunslinger" line. I felt strongly early on, that Roland would reach the Tower all alone.
That's what I always thought that line referred to - not, like it has been suggested elsewhere, that Roland would never die.

[chemical0815]

:)

[LadyHitchhiker]

LOL.. Did you fall for the trap of the name of the thread, chemical0815?

[Darkthoughts]

OK!

There were like a million threads about the loop in one guise or another, so I have merged them all :rock:

Please discuss all aspects of the loop here. Such as, why does it start and end where it does, are Roland and the others aware of it, does Roland learn something each time...you know, basically, if you have a question or theory that involve the loop in some way...bung 'em in here ;)

[Letti]

Lisa,
now the title is a very big spoiler, isn't it??
If you ask me we should give it a less direct title.

[Darkthoughts]

I thought that at first, but actually it would not make any sense to anyone who hadn't read DT7 so I reckon it's ok...I dunno...?

[Brainslinger]

I think those who read the Revised might get the spoiler. Granted it's easy to say that in hindsight though. Maybe just describe it more generally. "Is the desert of special significance for Roland?" something like that. That way someone who hasn't read the end might think it was a general discussion on the desert as a metaphor, of Roland's journey, mind-set at that point in time, etc.

Of course someone might actually want to start a thread on the desert being a metaphor, etc... but that's ok. They can name the title slightly different. ;)

[Darkthoughts]

Well, I want this thread to be about all aspects of the loop - so I need to encompass that in the title. Is there another way of calling it the Loop Thread without metioning loops? :lol:

[sarah]

I posted my answer in the Facilitators thead, Lisa.

[sarah]

Letti and Darkers, I closed the poll since this thread is now about all aspects of the loop. let me know if you want it reopend or a new poll. thanks :D

[Darkthoughts]

Title sorted with thanks to R_of_G :D

[jayson]

I don't get it, what's this thread supposed to be about? :P

[Darkthoughts]

Off with his head! :lol:

[Unfound One]

Ha! Brilliant title. :thumbsup:

[sarah]

This is the stupidest title for a thread that I've ever heard. <_<


:P

thanks rofgakajayson :wub:

[jayson]

I love you too Sarah. :couple:

[Letti]

I love this thread title. :D

I am afraid of such direct spoilers even if they shouldn't tell anything to those who haven't finished the series because for my part I had known about the end before I finished the book because of such a thing. There was a guy on DT.net who had a quite good av. It was Rolad in Groundhog day. I don't say I get it first but it was so interesting that it made me think...

Good job, that's all. :rose:

[Darkthoughts]

Cool :grouphug:

[fernandito]

I love this thread title. :D


I came here to say the exact same thing! :rofl:

[Brice]

I love this thread title. :D

I am afraid of such direct spoilers even if they shouldn't tell anything to those who haven't finished the series because for my part I had known about the end before I finished the book because of such a thing. There was a guy on DT.net who had a quite good av. It was Rolad in Groundhog day. I don't say I get it first but it was so interesting that it made me think...

Good job, that's all. :rose:

Thinny/David

[Letti]

I love this thread title. :D

I am afraid of such direct spoilers even if they shouldn't tell anything to those who haven't finished the series because for my part I had known about the end before I finished the book because of such a thing. There was a guy on DT.net who had a quite good av. It was Rolad in Groundhog day. I don't say I get it first but it was so interesting that it made me think...

Good job, that's all. :rose:

Thinny/David

If only I had it. It was so great. :D Yeah, it was him.
Still this title is hilarious.

[jayson]

The title occurred to me initially as a joke when I was trying to help Lisa think of a title that didn't have "loop" or a synonym of loop in it. I suggested it to make Lisa laugh and then it occurred to me that it actually might work as a title. If nothing else, it got some laughs so I've done my job. Thank you, and goodnight.

[flaggwalkstheline]

the name of the thread could have been named after the short story from everythings eventual, that feeling you can only say in french
deja vu

[jayson]

the name of the thread could have been named after the short story from everythings eventual, that feeling you can only say in french
deja vu

It was, at least in part. I thought of the concept, and then adjusted the wording to fit with the title of that story. :)

[Darkthoughts]

I'm going to recap some of the discussions that have been ongoing in this thread, for easy reference.


One simple question..
why does he have to restart the loop from the middle of the desert? Why from there?


Why the desert? Well, thats the point at which he realises he can attain the Tower, its no longer a dream, it becomes a reality.


For me, not necessarily believing that the loops are the same every time, I think there are two reasons of "why the desert." (1) I think the only thing that is the same is Walter and the desert is where he found Walter's trail, and (2) with the cyclical ending, King wanted to bring things back to the literal beginning of the series.


Maybe I'm just really basic here, but I thought it was because that is where WE are first introduced to Roland.

Maybe it's not all about HIS journey. Maybe it's about ours.


I just assumed that it started at the desert to truly epitomize the long dry future he will have, and it will begin and end until he can figure out how to break the cycle. Would we as readers have been more moved if he had begun at a lush forest? *I* think not.. but that's just an idea of mine that may change.


As for the desert, it's a logical place to begin. It's desolate, no life, it's dry and Roland is alone. The tower is in a field full of roses (roses are hard to grow) and it's the end the complete opposite of a desert. Due to heat it and exhaustion and dehydration it wouldn't be uncommon to feel a moment of vertigo and have a slight hallucination. It's the kind of thing that would be forgotten about after taking a sip of water from a waterskin and continuing on. Brown is his first encounter, where he recalls David, his hawk, the first of many sacrifices to come. I'm still not beyond Brown being Flagg or Fannin due to him also being at the waystation with Callahan while Roland was leaving with Jake.

[Darkthoughts]

Discussion on whether you think Roland knows/intuits the loop in some way:


Its just a little somthing ive been thinking on, ive talked to mark8888 about. It seemed a little strange to me that roland didnt really express his suprise when he opened the door and saw the desert again. I mean we all assume that Roland cant remember that hes in a loop, so does anyone think he picked up on it this time, maby now that he pickled up on it he can finaly end his journey?

Your thoughts my friends.


What he felt was so surprise but something much stronger... realisation. Shocking realisation.


Well, he'd been having Déja vú all the way up the tower, i think the Tower reminds him when he reaches the top and sees the desert.


I think he is slowly getting his memory back all the way up the Tower and when he goes through the last door he knows his fate....again.




Personally, I think this thread can stay open for a bit before it is merged with other threads discussing this topic. ~maerlyn


I agree, he begins to realize at the top what is going to happen to him and STILL can't cry off. I wasn't just the Tower right? It had to be the top and I believe he began to understand near the end of his climb

[Darkthoughts]

Questions: Why is the loop happening? Why is the horn significant? How many times has he looped?


Okay, so we know its a loop. But why is the Tower doing this to Roland?

Are we to assume that the time in the series is the first time through and if so--why must it return him to the beginning.

Did that "shimmer" happen the first time he went through the desert? After Tull?

So my question would be what about the first time through, what did Roland do to make the Tower suck him into this weird damnation?


I'm going with what Others have said, that until Roland finds his soul, (not letting Jake drop, the horn) and show care, he's doomed.


it's a question i've thought about, is the loop we read the first? i think we haven't enough evidence to say one way or the other with any surety. i still don't think he is being punished with the loops, but i'm always interested in the theories of those who think he is...


My question I have been wondering is why was leaving the Horn with Cuthbert a bad thing, other then He should have taken it with him as hire to the line of Eld and 'believed' he should take it with him on his quest for the Dark Tower? I take this as love and compassion for Cuthbert.


I don't think the one we read about is the first Loop..... probably not even close to being the first.
Walter told Roland (Palaver) that he keeps on doing the same thing. Then Roland -when he realises whats happening for that split second at the top of the Tower- is horrified at what is about to happen again.
I believe he's been round the Loop a good few times before the one we read about.


Well first off, I don't think Roland needs the horn for the tower in any way accept that it signifies his ability to think of something other than that.

I do not believe it is a talisman or anything like that.

So not getting it or getting it wouldn't help with the Tower imo. The reason I say it might be important for the next loop is because it shows that Roland cares for something other than his quest. He cares for that horn because it matters to him--it is the Horn of Eld and should not be left in the dust.

That is something other than Tower obsession and may be the beginning of his salvation.


What did Roland do to deserve this particular fate? I'm sure that every single one of his ancestors had sins to atone for, hell, Arthur Eld even slept with another woman, why didn't the Tower punish him for that? Why is Roland such a special case? Is it because he is the last of his kind and must therefore pay for the unpunished sins of those before him?


No actually I don't even think he 'forgot' to pick up the Horn. I think he left it there intentionally to honor his love for Cuthbert and maybe to a lesser degree the fall of Inner-World (The Baronies.)

I do believe that Roland needs it at the top of the Tower to save himself. To me it represents his ability to reconcile the fact that he can;t control everything. The loss of his friends were in a quest to save the multi-verse in and they sought the same battle their own right and that tragedy must occur and loss of friends is due to their choice and not entirely through Rolands device. I believe Roland traps himself in the loops because he can't escape the sorrow of the loss of his friends while he believes his task is to save the multi-verse which is incomprehensible.

Interestingly his trips through the loop(s) may be to make him evolve to understand what Gan and the Prim really are and only after doing so will be capable of grasping the concept of the infinity of the multi-verse and by thus doing so allows a balance to be forged between the magic of the Prim and the technology of man. Thus being capable of doing what he believes he's doing by overcoming his own personal chaos, loss of loved ones versus saving the incomprehensible multi-verse.


I am currently rereading The Dark Tower series. We know that at the end of the 7th book, Roland has to repeat his quest. My question is how many times do you think he has repeated his quest for the tower? I would just like some input. Thanks for your interest.


the theory I adhere to (in my lifetime it was first proposed by Taheen74 at .net, about three years ago) is that the cycle we're reading about is the 19th, and that's why 19 is everywhere; thus, the next will be the 20th (I hope, the last one, too).


Delah = many. Roland has been through it many times before and King told me he believes Roland will have to go through it many more times again. Unlike the episode of Kingdom Hospital where one time fixes all, he told me that was TV--in real life, people only improve in small increments.


King is very definite on this point: the next iteration is not the last, and not even close to the last.



King is very definite on this point: the next iteration is not the last, and not even close to the last.


But now he's got the Horn of Eld so there is definite progression for him.


Progression isn't redemption though.... it's just a start. :)


Somewhere between 19 and 99 maybe. It's a hard question to answer considering how determined Roland is on reaching the Tower and what mistakes he makes on each loop. He may learn some lessons on the next loop but only to go and make more as well. Condemning him to repeat the loops until hes get it right one time.

[flaggwalkstheline]

i havent read it in a while but I thought he shrieked cried and started having a bit of a breakdown in the seconds b4 he wen back in time and lost him memory... which is totally understandable given the circumstances

[Darkthoughts]

Here the discussion starts to touch on whether you think the same ka-tet are drawn each loop.

19 gets a few mentions.

We discuss if Walter has infact, as he implied to Roland, been inside the Tower.


As for whether or not Roland draws the same people, personally I think he does. I seem to remember a passage where Roland speaks something along the lines "Nothing but death can break Ka-tet" and that "Cort thought that not even that would break it." This makes sense when you consider the loop.


I thought Walter told Pere Callahan about the top of the tower, when they met at the way station.


It was to Callahan he said something like "I know the room at the top of the Tower is empty".


I thought that was an interesting idea, Walter knowing about the loop. If it is Roland's nineteenth loop and that's the significance behind "going nineteen" then it would make sense why the word drove Nort insane. After all, the word contained the secrets of death according to Walter.

None of this is definitive, but I had never thought of it before.


I think Walter knows about Roland's loop, not the specifics or even the why's. To me the "19" had nothing to do with the number of loops, just with the date of King's possible death and with his death the likely death of the Dark Tower.


Back on the topic of the thread. No, Walter hasn't been to the top of the Dark Tower. He just has a strong (albeit false) belief that the room at the top is empty.


He thinks the top of the Tower is empty because that's what he wants to believe. It would be much more comfortable for him because it would mean the worlds are much closer to Discordia and the Chaos.

[The Lady of Shadows]

quick question for the ptb?
since you're doing all this groovy merging to make threads easier to find, should this (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=5459) thread be here? just curious. :D

[jayson]

It seems like it to me t/s, but my superpowers don't work in this area so we will have to wait for Lisa or another Mid-Worlder to come along and take a look. :)

[Darkthoughts]

Cheers TS, ask and it shall be done! :D

[The Lady of Shadows]

hmmmm. well now we know whose superpowers trump whose. :lol:

[Nightfall]

Ok, so I've just been thinking about the very end of the last book where Roland reaches the top of the Tower and is more or less (Killed? Sent back? His version of All-World is Deleted?) Sent back, lets use that, to the begining of the first book, but this time he has the Horn of Eld. What does everyone think will happen to Roland this time around?


My personal though is that what happens to him is something kind of like what happens in the movie Groundhog Day. Roland will keep being sent back at the end of his quest until he gets it right, in the series case, Roland always imagined himself blowing the Horn of Eld after he cries out the names of his friends and loved ones

[Nightfall]

Hehe, I fail. Forgot(More or less HOW rather than TO, I haven't been on a forum in forever. Pardon my noobness) to mark the thread with the radioactive tag ><



EDIT:Fixed

[MonteGss]

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=376

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1778

[flaggwalkstheline]

perhaps this thread should be merged with the "that thing you can only talk about when you've finished the series" thread? i mean im not sure how one would go about getting that done since im not a mod...

[Jean]

Thank you Monte and flagg. This thread will be merged soon.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Nightfall]

To the moderator that kindly merged my thread and this thread, Thanks, it was my first day on the forums and I hadn't looked around everywhere. ^_^

[sarah]

no worries, Nightfall. Welcome to the site and happy posting :)

[The King of Kings]

I started reading the series 3 months ago and immediately fell in love with it. Unfortunately, the ending left me like this: :panic:, I guess I'm a sucker for absolute endings.

I have a few questions though that maybe you guys can help me with:
1) Why has the Dark Tower/Gan singled out Roland to be the one to repeat his journey?
2) I assume Roland saves the tower each "loop", so why does it feel necessary to punish Roland? What is the motive of the Dark Tower/Gan and why does it feel Roland needs to be tormented by living the loop over and over again?
3) Last but not least, why now does Dark Tower/Gan decide to give Roland the horn? Why now and why not last time?

I don't expect solid answers, at this point I'll take any vague speculative answer, haha.

Thanks ahead.

[Darkthoughts]

Hey :) Welcome to the site!

Now, don't be put off by the length of this thread :lol: but your questions - which don't really have any solid answers, only speculative ones - are being discussed here: http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=1778

On the last two pages of the thread I've posted a summary of the topics that have been discussed so far and your questions are pretty common discussion themes :thumbsup:

As for "why Roland?" I think that's because of his heritage - he is the last Gunslinger and therefore it's his responsibility to perform the quest as Gan sees fit.

[The King of Kings]

Very good, my apologies.

[The King of Kings]

The biggest question that plagues my mind is: what is the Tower's/Gan's motive in all this? It's saved essentially, so why is this force making him repeat life over and over again?

[alinda]

merge?:huglove: good and valid questions King, there are very interesting
theories around, read on! Oh Welcome to the site!

[obscurejude]

The biggest question that plagues my mind is: what is the Tower's/Gan's motive in all this? It's saved essentially, so why is this force making him repeat life over and over again?

Scroll back and respond to the previous posts specifically. The topic has been discussed at great length. I think you'll find it enjoyable.

Also, check this thread out. We talk a lot about the metaphysical forces of Roland's world here:

http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=2262

[The King of Kings]

Respond to what post?

I haven't really seen my question discussed in this thread. There was one semi-answer I thought and that was to save Roland's soul but I don't understand why Roland's soul needs saving and what has he done to tarnish his soul that he hasn't already made up for by the time he reaches the room at the top.

[Darkthoughts]

Did you not find Roland's lack of empathy and consideration for anything but his goal of reaching the Tower questionable?

[The King of Kings]

It was pretty clear (based on how I read it, anyways) that by the end of the books he would have gladly given his life for any of his ka-tet, especially Jake.

Yeah I totally agree he was pretty ruthless in the very first book at the beginning, but by the end of the series he had grown a considerable amount in terms of being able to love and trust others I thought. Enough, at the very least, to merit a vacation from the Tower instead of having to do it all over again.

[Darkthoughts]

I agree for Jake's death he would have traded places, but I also think he wouldn't have freely acted any differently (his past actions up to that point) had he been given the choice - and perhaps that is the point Gan is making, ie - until you behave differently from this point in time you have to repeat.

[The King of Kings]

We're his past actions up to that point really that bad though? Yeah he massacred a town when he could have chosen to just leave, but hey who can say no to that? :shoot:

I agree that Gan wants him to do something differently, or else he wouldn't have sent him back (or maybe he's just malicious, who knows). A problem I have with that is, what's the point of the journey and doing things differently if you are just going to forget it at the end? Are you really going to be 'growing' if you have to forget everything good that's happened and you have to start back at square 1?

[Darkthoughts]

I can think of loads more stuff he did other than Tull...dropping Jake for one ;)

There are also alot of instances where Roland acknowledges to himself, in a situation where people are perceiving him as being courageous or helpful, that he is only doing it because it aids his journey to the Tower and that he would sacrifice the relevant person/people should the need arise.

I actually don't have a problem with him forgetting each time, because it wouldn't really be a test if you knew how you were meant to behave in order to achieve your goal in the correct manner. I think Gan's point is that Roland needs to become more human/humane by virtue of his own free will. Sometimes I'm not sure that the Tower is ever in danger, on some levels I think it's a sort of purgatory and that Roland can only escape when he chooses to save himself instead of sacrificing his humanity for the Tower.

But I only think that sometimes :D

[jayson]

There are also alot of instances where Roland acknowledges to himself, in a situation where people are perceiving him as being courageous or helpful, that he is only doing it because it aids his journey to the Tower and that he would sacrifice the relevant person/people should the need arise.

Of course that brings up the question of what Roland's journey to the Tower is really about. If it is indeed about saving the entire multiverse from collapse, is it really so terrible for Roland to sacrifice a single person to save the entire world? Is any one life more important than all life? I don't necessarily know that there is a single correct answer to that kind of ethical question, but if Roland is actually saving the universe it's one that must be asked.

[Brice]

There are also alot of instances where Roland acknowledges to himself, in a situation where people are perceiving him as being courageous or helpful, that he is only doing it because it aids his journey to the Tower and that he would sacrifice the relevant person/people should the need arise.

Of course that brings up the question of what Roland's journey to the Tower is really about. If it is indeed about saving the entire multiverse from collapse, is it really so terrible for Roland to sacrifice a single person to save the entire world? Is any one life more important than all life? I don't necessarily know that there is a single correct answer to that kind of ethical question, but if Roland is actually saving the universe it's one that must be asked.

In my opinion yes, there is a single correct answer to that (YES, i do realize how fucking arrogant that is :lol: ): Every life is equal to the whole of humanity.

[jayson]

So if Roland for instance saved Jake instead of King and the whole universe collapsed that would be worth it? :orely:

[Brice]

absolutely

[Darkthoughts]

Yes, I was discussing this in the pub last weekend (hey, we can get drunk and be deep y'know! :lol:) And I think it's an interesting paradox - because sacrificing one to save many doesn't really make sense when you boil that logic down...quantity doesn't necessarily take precedence as far as I'm concerned.

[The King of Kings]

If the saving one person from death will cause the entire universe to fail, I think it would be pretty irresponsible on Roland's part to choose the one person.

But that also begs the question...

He let Jake die the first time. When he got his second chance with Jake, it was pretty clear he would never let that happen again and that he would gladly lay down his life for Jake's (or any of the tet).

Isn't that truly redemption?

[jayson]

If the saving one person from death will cause the entire universe to fail, I think it would be pretty irresponsible on Roland's part to choose the one person.

I agree. In fact, I'd consider calling it selfish. What is the real point of saving the one person you care about if all life in the universe will be extinguished shortly thereafter? So you saved your loved one for what? A few more days? A week? Whoo hoo.

[Jon]

Thinny/David

Any body know where he is?

His phone number hasn't worked in quite some time.

There is a chance I could POSSIBLY find him VIA a third party... maybe.

[darktowerbondsman]

(Repeated from other thread, thought it would be relevent outside discussion just about the Horn of Eld)

Hello Fellow Tower Fans,

I've never posted to your site before, in fact I'm just taking it all in for the first time this morning. I'd like to offer my interpretation of King's story here as no one else seems to share my thoughts.

I'm sorry if I beat around the bush a bit but I promise this will end up being about the Horn.

Please keep in mind I just discovered these books last year. I was just reading "The Gunslinger" on the 4th of July, and last night I finally (whew!) finished "The Dark Tower VII". It was recommoned to me (and I did) to pepper in "The Stand", "Salem's Lot", and "The Talisman", all before the last of the series.

Robert Browning's poem is very key here as well, and while it can be a chore to digest poetry for some people, I think King used this as a map to his story the whole way through. So you almost need to read it once.

What a set of books, I'm almost speechless.

I've seen a lot of people focus on how many loose ends King leaves over the course of the books. For the amount of subject matter present in all these books I think he did as best he could, after all, this story was like a living thing that had to change over the years just as I'm sure the writer himself did. Despite all the titles of all these books, King's focus (and moral tale) was of Roland from beginning to end, as many stories have a tradition of ending where they started.

Because of this focus, and his obvious lone destiny with the Tower at the end (If the Crimson King only knew!), I think we can catch some clues that King has left for us to find.

Roland needs a Key for the Tower right? And it's an artifact of Eld. Everyone assumes it's Roland's Gun, it's mythical barrel made with the metal of Arthur Eld's sword Excaliber itself... but... it's not Excaliber itself.

Fantastical? Sure! Awesome? Hell yeah? Best damn gun in any universe? I'd set my watch and warrent by it. Tower Key... no. It's been changed, alterered, given a whole new life in the killing chambers of line after line of gunslingers. Not just that but it's a fragment. Think past Roland's guns back to the first few books, in Gilead's day I'm sure there were more than just two of these guns. I'm no master of Metallurgy, but the inside of a gun barrel isn't THAT much metal. One giant mythical sword melted down may supply as many as 20 guns with near holy properties.

Now think of his other gun left with Susannah, this is a good clue. When she finally get's beyond the door it's trash, used up... wet. It's hard but despite the stories behind that gun, it's tossed in the waste basket.

So the gun is not the Key, but the Tower opens for him, why? Because Roland and the Tower are Destiny (Ka). He is meant for the Tower and the Tower is meant for him, it has to open. This is where he and he alone must go time after time after time "delah" (Roland shows this with deja`vu), it's a story of this man's moral character as well as being a character in a book. As in the "Talisman", Roland is Stephen King's Twinner of another world, in other worlds they share a HUGE link. As the writer has grown, so has he made Roland grow as a person.

The Horn is a gift from Gan like it or not. Roland has made this journey so many times, and is so very tired. But this last time he shared his journey with us his readers, and this time... this time he did everything the right way... so why repeat it again?!? Well, Roland's story is not like a video game, it's personal growth and emotional development, not do this, do that quests. In this cycle for the first time I'm sure many things happened, like him truely loving his family, and other touchy stuff do ya ken it?

Problem is his story is a broken Paradox. No matter that he got it right at the end of our story, he had not the Key to the door, and thus back to the desert he went to repeat the journey once more. The Horn of Eld, being a true artifact of Arthur Eld is the real Key. But not the key to the Tower, for it opens anyways, but the true key to the Gunslinger's door at the top, the one marked "Roland".

We know time is stretched out and generally messed up in this story, but Roland apparently gains near 1000 years while wandering the desert in this tale but seems not to notice it. I think this is the last huge clue King gave us long ago and he ties in here, this is like a "flex time" where he starts over so many times but the world keeps moving on. Destiny keeps him pumping and makes him whole every time, but it's in the damn desert, way to late to get the Horn back in his possession.

That's why I think Gan rewarded him with the Horn. This time Gan wants him to repeat process with the horn at his side, so he may finally go to the clearing at the end of his path when he gets to the top this final time.

Okay that's a lot to spit out and I tend to jabber, so chew on those thoughts and see if they feel right.

[The King of Kings]

Very solid analysis, but I have a problem.

With The Dark Tower series, it's not the ending that matters -- it's the journey. Having said that, I think that the reason Gan is making him repeat his journey is because he hasn't gotten a full character development yet in some arena (which your guess is as good as mine, because I think his character grew dramatically, well worth getting the clearing at the path, or at least a mini vacation).

Because of this, I think the horn will represent that last bit of character devleopment. Maybe one day he'll be going through his purse, see it, and then he will remember what its like to love and to trust and mayhap he won't be so distrusting and maybe he will love his tet more or something.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like my answer that much better either because it assumes that he didn't make a big enough transformation. I thought it was pretty clear he would have died for anyone of his tet and that is the biggest transformation of all compared to the way he was at the beginning.

You're assumptions are 100% spot on I believe though, I just think that requiring the horn for a reason such as unlocking a door would be a bit cheap. Amazing conclusion drawn either way!

[Brice]

Yes, I was discussing this in the pub last weekend (hey, we can get drunk and be deep y'know! :lol:) And I think it's an interesting paradox - because sacrificing one to save many doesn't really make sense when you boil that logic down...quantity doesn't necessarily take precedence as far as I'm concerned.

For me, that's a part of it. Quite simply I believe all things reflect on all other things. I even extend this to what I would consider the most despicable people. Their lives are equal to the best of us.


If the saving one person from death will cause the entire universe to fail, I think it would be pretty irresponsible on Roland's part to choose the one person.

But that also begs the question...

He let Jake die the first time. When he got his second chance with Jake, it was pretty clear he would never let that happen again and that he would gladly lay down his life for Jake's (or any of the tet).

Isn't that truly redemption?

In a way I think it is, but I consider it irresponsible to choose at all in such a situation.



If the saving one person from death will cause the entire universe to fail, I think it would be pretty irresponsible on Roland's part to choose the one person.

I agree. In fact, I'd consider calling it selfish. What is the real point of saving the one person you care about if all life in the universe will be extinguished shortly thereafter? So you saved your loved one for what? A few more days? A week? Whoo hoo.

The thing is there is no real way in real life to know how many will or won't die in any given situation...even a potentially world/universe destroying situation. In the story it works, but in reality we can expect survivors to most scenarios. So, if it's worth it to let someone you love die to save say a million people it would seem the same applies if it's only gonna' save two...and what if it will only save one person? How does one make such a choice at all. Surely most people wouldn't choose a single stranger's life over the life of one they love in most situations, so what's the magic number? How many lives does the life of one person you love equal? How many have to be at risk to make it best to save the most people. I fear for our (nonexistent) souls if we make such choices.

[Brice]

Thinny/David

Any body know where he is?

His phone number hasn't worked in quite some time.

There is a chance I could POSSIBLY find him VIA a third party... maybe.


I'll try to see what I can find...no promises.

[jayson]

The thing is there is no real way in real life to know how many will or won't die in any given situation...even a potentially world/universe destroying situation. In the story it works, but in reality we can expect survivors to most scenarios. So, if it's worth it to let someone you love die to save say a million people it would seem the same applies if it's only gonna' save two...and what if it will only save one person? How does one make such a choice at all. Surely most people wouldn't choose a single stranger's life over the life of one they love in most situations, so what's the magic number? How many lives does the life of one person you love equal? How many have to be at risk to make it best to save the most people. I fear for our (nonexistent) souls if we make such choices.

While I tend to agree with respect to real life situations, at least in terms of what I believe I would do if faced with such a choice, I don't know that the same holds true for Roland. His is a fantastical situation for sure, but it is nonetheless true that he does face the extinction of all lives if he doesn't complete his quest. Like I've said before, there really is a Tower and there really is a CK trying to bring it down. It's an interesting ethical hypothetical.

[Darkthoughts]

I think though, within the context of DT, that Roland dropping Jake wasn't about sacrificing one to save many - it was to do with Roland's goal of reaching the Tower, which as we learn, he isn't doing for the good of the universes, but through his own selfish desire.

[The King of Kings]

Now that's the kind of thinking I can get behind. But still, should we be punished for being curious?

[jayson]

I think though, within the context of DT, that Roland dropping Jake wasn't about sacrificing one to save many - it was to do with Roland's goal of reaching the Tower, which as we learn, he isn't doing for the good of the universes, but through his own selfish desire.

I'm not sure I agree we did learn that. We may learn that that is part of it, but like I said, there really is a Tower and there really is a CK working to bring it down. From the effects of the Beamquake on the world we see, presumably these efforts by the CK are working. If Roland's goal was not met, what then?

[Darkthoughts]

I was thinking more of the part where the beams have been saved and Roland still wants to reach the Tower...I'm due a reread, but don't Suze or Eddie speculate whether saving the beams was truly Roland's aim?

[jayson]

Yes, but my working theory is that saving the Beams did not make the Tower safe. Safer, but not safe. If Roland "cried off" after Blue Heaven and Maine, which is what I understand you to be suggesting (if wrong, please correct me) I don't believe the Tower to be safe. We are led to believe that if Mordred arrived there safely he could have freed Big Red and together they could have entered the Tower and... well, that's the big question. What would that mean for the multiverse? Best for Roland not to leave such things to chance. Or maybe he's just an obsessive freak. It works both ways. :)

[Darkthoughts]

Ah yes! Minor details I overlooked :lol:

I think mostly though that all these important things happen by the way and that what Roland needs to do is not, cry off the Tower, because I believe he must reach it. But that he should cry off the obsession of wanting simply to be there...

...there's more to it, I need to reread to really put what I mean into words.

[jayson]

I'll be happy to revisit it when you get back to the Tower.

[Darkthoughts]

Excellent! I just need to read 3 more Jim Butcher books to complete his series (so far) and then I'm embarking on my DT reread (it's for the Tower Connections, so I should be paying even more attention to detail than usual!)

[jayson]

An even more-focused Lisa :thumbsup:
Looking forward to seeing what you find in it this time around.

[The King of Kings]

I'm not sure I agree we did learn that. We may learn that that is part of it, but like I said, there really is a Tower and there really is a CK working to bring it down. From the effects of the Beamquake on the world we see, presumably these efforts by the CK are working. If Roland's goal was not met, what then?

We pretty much agree, but to play Devil's advocate could one make the argument that dropping Jake was a bit...useless? What would have happened if he chose to save him? Worst case scenario it would have taken longer to find Walter, maybe you could say he wouldn't have found those doors but I believe he would have as it was along the path of the beam.

[jayson]

We pretty much agree, but to play Devil's advocate could one make the argument that dropping Jake was a bit...useless? What would have happened if he chose to save him? Worst case scenario it would have taken longer to find Walter, maybe you could say he wouldn't have found those doors but I believe he would have as it was along the path of the beam.

I'd have to re-read to be positive, but it was my understanding that dropping Jake was the sacrifice Roland needed to make in order to be invested with the power to draw his three. So no dropsies, no doors. If that's the case, the answer to your question of worst case scenario would potentially be no Eddie and no Susannah and no undoing Jack Mort's pushing of Jake which eventually led to Roland and Jake's reunion.

[The King of Kings]

Looks like I read the series too fast. I'll have to go back through the first book as well.

[jayson]

I could be off, but it seems to me there was something going on in his talk with the oracle that suggested to me such was true.

[darktowerbondsman]

Jake had to be dropped in the first book. When this point was written, I'm not sure if Roland was meant to continue along his journey, it was a very short book written when Stephen was very new to the experience.

He was making a hero and an anti-hero at the same time. That is what is classic about Roland of Gilead, just like his Western actor inspirations. He the bad guy you love so much that he has become a good guy.

But Stephen DID end up writing more of the tale (As we know!), and through that Roland had a lot of emotional and character development. Because of his actions from the beginning into the end, he has BECOME the hero King may have thought up originally.

So he HAD to do some bad things, don't you see?

[The King of Kings]

Do you think one of you guys could recap the part with the oracle (or whatever) that leads you to believe that Jake was a necessary sacrifice in order to draw the three? I'm trying for all its worth and I just can't remember this part of the books.

[Bumbler19]

Ok... so... i just finished the book... still having crazy feelings but this one is sticking a little too much for me to just sit on it....

Ok, so in "the real world" of 99... time always moves forward correct? never backward.

also, true for the world of 19 "Roland's World" this is stated right up to almost the end of the book.

Then how can Roland go back and loop?
i've been thinking and i've come to a few conclusions and i just don't know if any really fit if at all.

A. well... its GAN and GAN can do w'ev teh GAN Wahn' t' doh. in regards to time and doors etc. etc.

B. Where Roland comes out is another version of Roland's world, like the many versions of New York.

C. Stephen King wrote that as, that is just what the characters THINK but they are simply wrong....



I dunno, what do you think....
i really don't think that SK made a mistake like this, it is too obvious.

[Bumbler19]

I too thought it was a loop to the beginning of where WE were introduced to Roland.

I dunno if i'm happy about the ending or not in my honest opinion.
happy the journey continues
sad the journey continues :panic::pullhair:

Did anyone else get wide eyed about half way up the tower and then start screaming KA IS A GAWD-DAMN(bomb) WHEEL!!!! in their heads? cuz i did and then when the loop happened pretty much (roughly) the way i thought it was gonna happen it made me angry i predicted it, but happy at the same time... yay mixed feelings again :panic::pullhair:

Also, did any of you actually consider stop reading when SK basically said to? i considered it, but i read on, i don't regret it though me thinks.

[jayson]

B & C are both possibilities I have considered.

It is distinctly possible that Roland has gone to another level of the Tower rather than "resetting" to the desert on the same level he was on for the loop that we've read.

I also think C is something quite important and I'm glad to see someone else mention it. There's been a lot of discussion about things that may or may not go against the "rules" of the Keystone worlds (19 and 99) but as far as I remember these were never hard and fast rules written by King as narration, rather they were always speculation on the part of the characters and there is no reason to assume they are absolutely correct.

Welcome to the site Bumbler. :)

[The King of Kings]

Even though it's sort of a cop out, I think that the Tower/Gan is above the rules. It exists out of time and therefore can do whatever it wants practically. This is the most logical answer I figure.

[Matt]

I understood Keystone Earth was the only place where time never went back.

[jayson]

I think that was said Matt, but was it ever said by King as the narrator of the story, or was it only speculated upon by characters (specifically the tet)?

I cannot think of a single time it was said by anyone other than the characters and there is no way they could know that for a fact. It was a theory on which they were working. Now, that doesn't mean it's not true, but it also doesn't mean it is true. It's not as Roland had a rule book of how the different worlds worked. In truth, we have no definitive concept of how time actually works in the Keystone or any other world.

[The King of Kings]

I'm certainly taking a break from King. I need to diversify my reading.

[Kes]

I'm sort of drawn to B as an answer. This also plays into the possibility that I've been toying with that The Crimson King, Stephen King and Roland may very well be multiversional aspects of each other.

[Bumbler19]

Thanks for the replies all...

More to ponder on i guess!

and thanks for the welcome R of G, although, i have been a member of this site before, years ago so it looked quite different and i think since then my account has gotten deleted lol.

[jayson]

and thanks for the welcome R of G, although, i have been a member of this site before, years ago so it looked quite different and i think since then my account has gotten deleted lol.

In that case, welcome back. :)

[Matt]

The site itself is only about a year and a half old. You may be thinking about dt.net (mostly red forum)...that one is gone now.