Oy's choice

[Letti]

I just keep thinking about it...
When he stays with Roland he chooses Roland instead of Susannah... why does he do that?
Does he do it for Roland? Or for Jake?
And does the ka force him?
For my part I have got a very strong feeling and opinion and I will let you know later.

[DocPain]

I think he does it a) for Jake and b) For Ka.

[ManOfWesternesse]

He does it very specifically for Jake.

There's only one place in all the worlds where Oy wants to be at that time, and that's back in the clearing beside Jake. The only reason he ever left there was because Jake asked him to go with Roland. Jake had a premonition of the need Roland would have for Oy before he reached the Tower - maybe he even knew just how bad it was going to be for Oy? But he asked him to go, and so Oy went. And having gone that far Oy was not going to abandon his mission to leave with Susannah - there would have been no joy for him anyway even had he done so - there was no joy in anything for Oy after Jake, only Jake's dying wish... and then death.

[Matt]

I totally agree, that was the last thing Jake asked him to do.

"take care of Roland"

I fully believe he would have stayed right there at the graveside forever otherwise.

[Erin]

I agree. Oy would do anything Jake asked of him and more.

[Letti]

Okay, we all agree (so far). :)
But it still strange that the little animal stayed because Jake asked him to do so but Susannah didn't however if I remember well Eddie asked the same.

[Jean]

Susannah is a woman in love, who proved that for her love comes before universe, before any dream, before loyalty, before gratitude or friendship, even before honor (may I die horrible death before I blame her for that); while Oy is a born samurai.

[She-Oy]

Oy gave himself to Jake, therefore he'd do anything for him, and that's what Jake asked.

To me, the was THE MOST TRAGIC, yet completely human thing at the end...and we all pretty much considered Oy human by the end, so for him to dedicate himself like he did...well...as sad as it was, it was love....in the purest form...to serve yourself for who you loved.

Jake loved Roland and knew he would need help....he loved Oy too, but he knew Oy would be miserable without him....it was a beautiful insight...

[jayson]

I think Oy's actions were two-fold. First and foremost I agree with everyone else that Oy's motivation was his command from Jake to remain with Roland. Jake was very much Oy's "master" and so much more. Oy simply would not disobey a command from Jake, especially when he could see it would be the last he'd ever receive. Secondly, I don't think you can rule out ka. I firmly believe it was Oy's ka to be the one to first face Mordred allowing Roland to not be killed by him. Oy was as much a part of the tet as Eddie, Susannah or Jake, and he did as his bumbler ka bid him to the very end. As far as following Suze through the door, Oy's choice was made before that. Once he bid Jake farewell he would only follow Roland, not Suze or anyone else. Jake said Roland and Roland it was.

[Letti]

Susannah is a woman in love, who proved that for her love comes before universe, before any dream, before loyalty, before gratitude or friendship, even before honor (may I die horrible death before I blame her for that); while Oy is a born samurai.

Cry your pardon, Jean but where did she prove that???
I know it's off topic but still...

[Jean]

leaving Roland, of course.

[jayson]

Cry your pardon, Jean but where did she prove that???
I know it's off topic but still...

Good question Letti. You know I agree with you in questioning Suze's choices at the end. I'm interested to hear Jean's thoughts on how he thinks love guided her final choice.

[Jean]

will someone start a separate thread, then? http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif
(although I don't think I have much to add. To me it always seemed obvious. I might find arguments, though, when I see other opinions.)

[Bethany]

Oy gave himself to Jake, therefore he'd do anything for him, and that's what Jake asked.

To me, the was THE MOST TRAGIC, yet completely human thing at the end...and we all pretty much considered Oy human by the end, so for him to dedicate himself like he did...well...as sad as it was, it was love....in the purest form...to serve yourself for who you loved.

Jake loved Roland and knew he would need help....he loved Oy too, but he knew Oy would be miserable without him....it was a beautiful insight...

before i die, i hope to have read the series enough times to understand that sentiment and why everyone think susan is so wonderful.

[jayson]

will someone start a separate thread, then? http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif
(although I don't think I have much to add. To me it always seemed obvious. I might find arguments, though, when I see other opinions.)

it sounds like it's appropriate for my "why different for susannah" thread.my question, perhaps letti's as well, is why do feel susannah's choice to go through the door was motivated by love? i'm not sure it wasn't, but am equally not sure it was. i know she was repeatedly visited by the vision of eddie & jake in central park, but do you think she knew this is where she'd end up if she forsook the Tower and left Roland? she might have known. i suppose one could also make the case that if that's where she thinks eddie and jake wound up after they died that she might end up there as well so long as she stood true. the reason i started that thread was to try and hash out why she wound up in the same place for making a very different choice than jake, eddie or oy.

[Jean]

I have copied your last post to that thread, we'll go on there. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

[Letti]

will someone start a separate thread, then? http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif
(although I don't think I have much to add. To me it always seemed obvious. I might find arguments, though, when I see other opinions.)

Jeans, you can't do this.
I mean... most of the things I write or argue about here are obvious to me. That's why we are here to share them and to see if others agree or disagree.
You could make me really happy if you let me know why you think that way.

[jayson]

will someone start a separate thread, then? http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif
(although I don't think I have much to add. To me it always seemed obvious. I might find arguments, though, when I see other opinions.)

Jeans, you can't do this.
I mean... most of the things I write or argue about here are obvious to me. That's why we are here to share them and to see if others agree or disagree.
You could make me really happy if you let me know why you think that way.

check the other thread letti, jean posted something good to explain his thoughts.

[Jean]

I don't refuse to give arguments. I can't find any at the moment that wouldn't stick out like sore thumbs throughout the books. It's like, prove that 2*2 equals 4. I think I can, but I wasn't ready to do that.

(to be continued in Why Different for Susannah thread)

[Letti]

Thanks RG, I cannot wait to read it.

Anyway I am surprised that we have no votes for ka.

[jayson]

Thanks RG, I cannot wait to read it.

Anyway I am surprised that we have no votes for ka.

I'd have split mine if I could, as I think ka played a part in Oy's choices. I do think the greater part of his motivation was loyalty to Jake, but he stayed with Roland for a pretty long time after Jake's death, and I think ka was the reason. For that matter, I think it was Oy's ka to allow himself to be "mastered" by Jake. I think there's a lot to Oy being the one to face down Mordred's assault, and I don't doubt that it was ka that chose Oy for that task.

[Letti]

Thanks RG, I cannot wait to read it.

Anyway I am surprised that we have no votes for ka.

I'd have split mine if I could, as I think ka played a part in Oy's choices. I do think the greater part of his motivation was loyalty to Jake, but he stayed with Roland for a pretty long time after Jake's death, and I think ka was the reason. For that matter, I think it was Oy's ka to allow himself to be "mastered" by Jake. I think there's a lot to Oy being the one to face down Mordred's assault, and I don't doubt that it was ka that chose Oy for that task.

But you couldn't sai and you picked Jake. ;)

[Jean]

Anyway I am surprised that we have no votes for ka.
bwahahaha! that's because we all love and respect Oy too much, and in their secret soul everyone feels that the concept of ka is degrading and not worthy of a good brave human or non-human creature! thank you for this question Nikolett, it was really very telling.
::evil laugh::

[Wuducynn]

I'm surprised Jean didn't vote for "ka" as a choice.

[Letti]

I'm surprised Jean didn't vote for "ka" as a choice.

Because you live in another dimension, my friend.

[Darkthoughts]

Bethany - what is it about Oy that annoys you/that you dislike?

[airgirl]

Oy starts to Susannahs door, I think he "kens" his destiny then for some odd reason Susannahs says what Jake says when Roland dropped (sacrificed) him "There are other worlds than these". This is when Oy stepped back from the door and went to Roland. Could be that Oy "remembered the face of his master" (Jake, and Jakes request to stay with Roland)
Or,, Could it mean that Oy precient the future and knew his destiny and made his choice to enter the clearing to be by Jakes side again in another world?
If you follow Oy, you will see he does not eat for the next few days, like he feels his fate. Roland snaps at him, thinks Oy is just wishing he went with Susannah, but we know this is not why Oy is not eating.

[Matt]

I totally agree airgirl (and welcome to the site btw)--I think Oy had a sense of responsibility towards Jake and Jake told him to say.

The Tower and all else could go to hell in a hand basket as far as he was concerned but Jake told him to stay.

[ladysai]

I totally agree, that was the last thing Jake asked him to do.

"take care of Roland"

I fully believe he would have stayed right there at the graveside forever otherwise.

I believe this, too.
If Jake hadn't given Oy a purpose in life, he would have laid down with his head on his paws and waited to die next to 'ake.

[Jean]

who are the other two freaks who voted "Roland is his dinh"?

[Letti]

And we have no ka choices... interesting and shocking. When it's about a nice animal people seem realistic.

[airgirl]

Oy, as one of the ka-tet fascinates me. In a world (mid world) where people and animals have mutated - I tend to hold the belief that Oy is a mutant also, but to a higher plane.
First, he was shunned from his group of bumblers, which we are led to believe are social animals. Kicked out because he was "different". Yes, he's an animal, but he evolved into something more, not really on a human plane but something quite special indeed. I don't think his type of intelligence could be measured by human standards.
First his speech though limited (being a bumbler after all), he seems to understand all that is happening around him, just can't verbalize. Second, he appears to have some telepathic abilities that are greater than animals usually have. Third at the end, he appears to have an inkling of his fate, sort of a psychic abliity as well.
Though his loyalty to Jake was unquestioned, I do think he knew as well the whole time that Roland (Olan) was his dinh. Oy is complex and multi faceted. If anyone is re-reading the books, pay attention to Oy and how cleverly SK puts in the one word Oy says every now and then yet that one word says volumes about what Oy is thinking at the time. SK can ramble, but in Oy, his restraint makes Oy one of the most interesting characters in the series.
In my opinion, Oy is the purest member of the Ka-tet. By giving up his life for his Dinh whether at the request of Jake or because he knew it was what he was supposed to do (his Ka) shows how evolved he was.

[The Lady of Shadows]

i think if jake had said to oy "okay, you go over there and sit and wait for me forever" oy would have done it. until the day he died.

of course he stayed with roland, jake asked him to.

ake! ake! ake!
it was all about ake!

[razz]

Oy! Ake! Olan! Ower! (i assume that's how he would say it)

[Brainslinger]

Ite! Imson. Ings. Uts! (But alas he didn't get the chance...)

[Mark]

Because of Jake, i believe.

[ladysai]

Ite! Imson. Ings. Uts! (But alas he didn't get the chance...)

:lol:
That would have been a great scene with crappy dialogue:
"Sshole!"
~ripping, tearing, shredding~
"EEEEEEEEEEEEE!"
~happy, bloody bumbler grin~
:lol:

[razz]

:rofl:

[Ka-tet]

For Jake.

I feel(although he is part of the Ka-tet) Oy is beyond ka. Like some things can be. And all he cares about is Jake, Oy dosnt give a shit about Roland and his tower. Or any other member of the tet.

[Tony_A]

New member here

Definitely because it was part of the instructions from Jake as he was dying. Roland was very close to forsaking the Tower to save Jake instead of King after Jake's sacrifice.

Sorry Ka-tet, but I don't hold to your interpretation that Oy only cares for Jake and nobody else. While it's true that Jake was Oy's closest companion, he loved them all. Why else would Oy lick Roland's hand or bother to say "Olan" as he was dying? He's have just died, making Roland even more miserable that all of his family was gone. Oy jumping in to attack Mordred was his sacrifice. He had a chance to escape before Mordred snapped his spine, but he chose to go to the clearing.

[jayson]

Good to have you here Tony. You make some good points about Oy and his choices.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Well said Tony A - & welcome to the place.

[mia/susannah]

I believe oy choice Roland because that was what jake instructed of him. I think oy just wanted to go to the clearing to be with jake but he would not have disobeyed jake

[Tony_A]

Thanks for the welcome. I can't explain everything going through my head right now. I am recently decided to re-read the entire "Dark Tower" to stop me from buying more books and cluttering my already cluttered bookshelves. I'm currently 75% through "Song of Sussanah" and I must say that I am consumed with feelings I never expected to get from books. It first started with Benny's death during the battle with the wolves. Maybe it's just me, but nothing really showed the contrast of Jake being a child and a gunslinger than that.

I now find I am thinking about the ka-tet, especially Jake and Oy, several times a day. I don't think it's because I'm sensitive (I am), but more that I read the books the first time over a number of years and now am reading them in a few months.

It's good to have a place to palaver a bit.

[Tony_A]

I believe oy choice Roland because that was what jake instructed of him. I think oy just wanted to go to the clearing to be with jake but he would not have disobeyed jake

Agreed, but that doesn't preclude him from having feelings for Roland.

[ManOfWesternesse]

1. more that I read the books the first time over a number of years and now am reading them in a few months.

2. It's good to have a place to palaver a bit.
1. Yes - a re-read is definitely different than the first-time-round. It all hits you at a different pace.
2. It is indeed.

[Sam]

It was for Jake and for Jake alone that Oy went with Roland.

[airgirl]

I agree Tony, the books "stay" with you. I love to read, but the DT series I think have made the deepest impression. I went back and just followed Oy throughout all the books and in his simplicity lies a complexity different and I think purer than the other members of the Ka-tet.

[Matt]

I agree with that airgirl. I believe Oy was the only member of the Katet that stood for something other than the Tower or Roland.

It made him very endearing.

[Letti]

*looks at the poll*
It's interesting that so many people believe in ka really hard and blame it so often but a little true-hearted animal's love can beat it easily.

[Jean]

It's interesting that so many people believe in ka really hard and blame it so often but a little true-hearted animal's love can beat it easily.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gif

[stone, rose, unfound door]

I'm not original in thinking Oy actually followed Jake's orders a lot more than Roland's.

[The King of Kings]

Just because Oy was told by Jake to stay with Roland (what I think) doesn't mean that it didn't serve ka.

[Bumbler19]

He does it for Jake, if he did it for Olan, or even for Ka i believe Oy would have talked more besides the very few times he did after Jake fell.

Maybe secondary for Ka...

Thirdly Olan his ex-Dihn...

[Letti]

He does it for Jake, if he did it for Olan, or even for Ka i believe Oy would have talked more besides the very few times he did after Jake fell.

Maybe secondary for Ka...

Thirdly Olan his ex-Dihn...

Why did you write ex-Dihn?
I think Roland was his dihn as long as he lived.

[Bumbler19]

Why did you write ex-Dihn?
I think Roland was his dihn as long as he lived.

............ The Ka-tet broke when Eddie died, so technically he is no longer their official Dihn. I think ex-dihn or former dihn is in the book multiple times after eddie died.

Oy died well after Eddie, making Olan Former-Dihn of Oy and Susannah till their death and departure respectively.

[pr0k]

Oy knew to follow Jake's final order; to protect Roland. This was also Eddie's order to Jake and Oy.

I think Oy also knew that he wasn't far from the clearing at the end of the path anyhow.

[Letti]

I think Oy also knew that he wasn't far from the clearing at the end of the path anyhow.

He wasn't BUT because of Roland.
If he hadn't followed the gunslinger he would have needed to die for him. However I think if Oy hadn't followed his dinh he might have stayed at Jake's grave till death.

[pr0k]

He wasn't BUT because of Roland.
If he hadn't followed the gunslinger he would have needed to die for him. However I think if Oy hadn't followed his dinh he might have stayed at Jake's grave till death.


I meant, he knew staying would lead him to the clearing at the end of the path very shortly afterward.

And I know even Roland believed it of Oy, that he wouldn't have left Jake's grave without Jake's command.. but I believe Oy to be a true Gunslinger. Oy had a sense of purpose. He had a sense of purpose to move forward just as they all had.

[candy]

Just because Oy was told by Jake to stay with Roland (what I think) doesn't mean that it didn't serve ka.

i dont think so, i think Oy only left jakes grave because Jake ordered him to leave and protect Roland, as Eddie ordered jake to. If it was Ka, they would not have needed to be told, it would just have been

I agree with Letti, that if Oy had not followed jakes orders he would have lain down and died at jakes grave.

When he (oy) followed roland, his heart was just not in it, it was as if he had left a part of him at jakes graveside, and it is this more than anything else that tells me he left only because his beloved jake told him to

[Lily-sai]

Let me try to gather my thoughts together. Maybe I will succeed, maybe not, but here goes.

Well, I do think while it was because of Jake's command Oy didn't stay beside Jake's grave and followed Roland, I think ka had its fingers somewhere there. You never know, maybe ka meant Susannah to go (though it still hurts me, it does) and Oy to stay. You can't compare Oy and Susannah, one's soul is pure and innocent, one is a human being and thus complicated. Oy indeed is a complex being, but not complicated like humans, if ya ken what I mean?

Fair enough, the will of animals isn't weak, and they can do as they want, despite of commands. Oy could have followed with Susannah, yes, letting love to blind him. But this little samurai knew what had to be done and moved on, though it must have hurt him really much, knowing Jake was so near. Oy must have known death would be painful because of his choice. Such a brave heart.

But maybe again, true samurais don't feel pain when they are dying. They just kind of slip away, content knowing they've done their part, and letting the surviving ones know there is no hard feelings, just love. That's what I've always hoped for, anyway. But I swear, I would've torn my book apart, had'nt Sai King mentioned a strange-looking dog barking happily in New York.
It would just have been too much to bear if Oy hadn't made it, ka or not.

I don't know if any of this made sense, but I'm doing a reread right now, and all my thoughts are kind of a mishmash.

[Delah]

I like the question this thread has created: who was Oy's ultimate Dinh?

In DT7, after Jake's death, when he and Roland are in the Dixie Pig following Jake's old trail, Oy is thinking of Jake and refers to Jake, very specifically, as his dinh. Of course, in the sharing water scene, Oy also calls Roland his dinh. However ... I think that, if Roland ever, for any reason (and it would be grossly out of character) tried to harm Jake, even if he was just following the Cort style school of disciplining apprentice gunslingers, Oy would have attacked Roland with no hesitation. So I'd have to say ... Jake is Oy's ultimate dinh, but he accepts Roland because Roland is Jake's dinh. Whew.

He also thinks that he will be with Jake very soon, as soon as he finishes this last job Jake gave him. So I think its pretty clear, in the books, that Oy chose to accompany Roland out of his love for Jake ... of course, his love serves ka, but I believe he's fulfilling Jake's dying wish.

[Letti]

I like the question this thread has created: who was Oy's ultimate Dinh?

For me it's not a question. Roland was his dihn.
But his soulmate his best friend and his brother was Jake.
Two very different (and deep) relationships.

[Jean]

For me it's not a question. Roland was his dihn.
Bears agree.

[Delah]

Interesting. But I would still argue that Oy's ultimate loyalty is to Jake ... and he does call Jake dinh in TDT.

[Letti]

Interesting. But I would still argue that Oy's ultimate loyalty is to Jake ... and he does call Jake dinh in TDT.

You mean The Drawing of the Three? Oy appeared in The Waste Lands.
I don't remember Oy calling Jake dinh at all (but my memory is quite bad). Could you show us the quote?

[Delah]

You mean The Drawing of the Three? Oy appeared in The Waste Lands.

Nah, I meant The Dark Tower. I have a bad habit of abbreviating anything possible.


I don't remember Oy calling Jake dinh at all (but my memory is quite bad). Could you show us the quote?

Grrr. I knew someone would ask that.

Ah. Here we go. Pg. 92, when Oy and Jake are running away from the low men under the Dixie Pig: "Oy had no idea why he heard anxiety in his ka-dinh's voice."

So not exactly his dinh, but his ka-dinh. Which means ... anyone? anyone? Buehler?"

[Letti]

You mean The Drawing of the Three? Oy appeared in The Waste Lands.

Nah, I meant The Dark Tower. I have a bad habit of abbreviating anything possible.


I don't remember Oy calling Jake dinh at all (but my memory is quite bad). Could you show us the quote?

Grrr. I knew someone would ask that.

Ah. Here we go. Pg. 92, when Oy and Jake are running away from the low men under the Dixie Pig: "Oy had no idea why he heard anxiety in his ka-dinh's voice."

So not exactly his dinh, but his ka-dinh. Which means ... anyone? anyone? Buehler?"

Sorry for stealing your time but thank you so much for the quote. Really interesting. If only SK wrote a real DT dictionary.. but I have a feeling there is difference between dinh and ka-dinh (or is it because it would make my point stronger?).. I am interested in the others' opinion.

[Jean]

I'm afraid it's not only the hypothetical difference between dinh and ka-dinh, but the difference between what Oy actually said and what the author suggested he thought. Also, a ka-tet is, for lack of a better word, a floating notion: in the main ka-tet consisting of five members Roland is doubtlessly the dinh, for all those who form the ka-tet; in a smaller, very personal ka-tet formed between Oy and Jake, Jake is the dihn.

[sofaki]

I believe that Oy chose Roland instead of Susannah because of ka. Oy had already followed Roland cause Jake wanted to, otherwise he would have died there, over his grave.
There are hints in all books that the members of the ka-tet had already been there. Somehow Susannah knew that Roland was supposed to finish his quest alone (how would she know?) :(
Maybe Oy doesnt differ from Eddie, Susannah and Jake by just being an animal. In my opinion, is bound by the ka. Oy was meant to stay there and save Roland himself, fulfilling his final role in this quest. It was a tragic moment, even though essential, from my point of view.

[Sickrose]

I voted for Ka I agree that Roland needed to finish the quest alone hence why each level of the tower tells his story and noone elses.

I think it was Ka that allowed the relationship to be forged between Oy and Jake and if Jake hadn't told Oy to take care of Roland he still would have done because he had a job to do because of Ka. Otherwise Roland would have died so the quest would have ended so near the tower.

I think maybe Jake's instruction to Oy was superflous but indicated his love for Roland. In addition Oy would have ended up in the clearing no matter what he did and, therefore, be with Jake.

[Myste]

ka