Why Different For Susannah?

[jayson]

Here is my question... Eddie, Jake and Susannah all depart from the tale in DT-7. Though they all wind up in the same place [and presumably Oy will as well], why do you feel that Eddie & Jake needed to physically die in one world while Susannah was able to just ride the Ho-Fat Taxi through a door? I have my theories, but I am interested in hearing some of yours first.

[Storyslinger]

I thought it was because of Eddie and Jake being representations of Roland's earlier ka-tet, that they should die in much of the same way. Didn't Cuthbert get shot in the eye, much like Eddie did?

[zadok]

It would have made much more sense to me if Jake wasn't there. He's the only one that died in the "Keystone earth"...

[jayson]

I thought it was because of Eddie and Jake being representations of Roland's earlier ka-tet, that they should die in much of the same way. Didn't Cuthbert get shot in the eye, much like Eddie did?

That'd only cover Eddie really. Eddie's death was in some ways reminiscent of Bert's, but so far as I can see, Jake's death is not similar to Alain's [thank Gan for that, I couldn't take seeing that happen again].

[Storyslinger]

Alain fell under Roland and Bert's guns, right? A case of mistaken identity.

[Kevin]

Jake's first death is similiar to Alain's though, Jake was killed by someone he trusted, just as Alain was killed by Bert and Roland.


Alain fell under Roland and Bert's guns, right? A case of mistaken identity.

How is Jake's first/second death a case of mistaken identity? I'm missing somethong here...

[Storyslinger]

Actually, Jake's first and last death are similar too. Both by car

[jayson]

Actually, Jake's first and last death are similar too. Both by car

[QUOTE=Kevin;79556]Jake's first death is similiar to Alain's though, Jake was killed by someone he trusted, just as Alain was killed by Bert and Roland.[QUOTE=Kevin;79556]

Both of those statements are true, but only Jake's death in place of Sai King matters to me as far as this question. Simply put, why did Jake and Eddie and Oy have to die to get to their final New York while Susannah did not?

It could easily be chalked up as being because Susannah ultimately renounced the Tower, while the others died still in pursuit. It could also be argued that Ka put Susannah through more than enough with the whole Mordred pregnancy.

[Storyslinger]

It could easily be chalked up as being because Susannah ultimately renounced the Tower, while the others died still in pursuit.

I really love this, and it makes perfect sense to me.

[NeedfulKings]

Susannah crossed into NY with memories of the Ka-tet. Even though they were fading, she still knew that the three of them (4 if you include Oy) needed to be together.

I don't know if that's "THE" reason, but it does mean something.

[jayson]

Susannah crossed into NY with memories of the Ka-tet. Even though they were fading, she still knew that the three of them (4 if you include Oy) needed to be together.

I don't know if that's "THE" reason, but it does mean something.

It only explains why Susannah recognizes Jake & Eddie when she first arrives there, not why her path to that when was different than theirs.

[NeedfulKings]

True. That said, had her path been the same as theirs, they likely would not have been reunited, as she would not know them at all. I don't think King could have passed her off as their sister. ;)

It is a great question! One of so many that this journey brings up. One more reason for me to read it again and again!!!! :D

[jayson]

True. That said, had her path been the same as theirs, they likely would not have been reunited, as she would not know them at all.

Why not? Eddie & Jake died at different points and in two completely different worlds and they managed to find each other on that level.

[NeedfulKings]

That's actually forming another good question. Since they (Eddie and Jake) did die at different times, on different levels, how did they become brothers in the new NY???

In reality, maybe King thought it would seem too "convenient" to just kill everyone off so Roland could reach his tower alone. This was one more way to remove a member of the ka-tet--and at the same time foster a reunion of sorts on the other side.

Your theory of her renouncing the tower would definitely be a deeper answer to the question "why?".

[jayson]

That's actually forming another good question. Since they (Eddie and Jake) did die at different times, on different levels, how did they become brothers in the new NY???

I like to think this was ka's reward for their standing and being true.

[NeedfulKings]

That's actually forming another good question. Since they (Eddie and Jake) did die at different times, on different levels, how did they become brothers in the new NY???

I like to think this was ka's reward for their standing and being true.

Well said! :thumbsup:

[Matt]

I considered those two a "jake and eddie" from an alternate universe or another level of the tower, if you will.

Basically, Susannah got to go to that one place where they actually were brothers (not keystone by any stretch of the imagination) and Eddie never had the monkey.

Patrick opened the door on a set that were happy and right in the universe.

[jayson]

I considered those two a "jake and eddie" from an alternate universe or another level of the tower, if you will.

Basically, Susannah got to go to that one place where they actually were brothers (not keystone by any stretch of the imagination) and Eddie never had the monkey.

Patrick opened the door on a set that were happy and right in the universe.

Interesting theory Matt and certainly a possibility.

[Jean]

I thought it was because of Eddie and Jake being representations of Roland's earlier ka-tet, that they should die in much of the same way. Didn't Cuthbert get shot in the eye, much like Eddie did?

That'd only cover Eddie really. Eddie's death was in some ways reminiscent of Bert's, but so far as I can see, Jake's death is not similar to Alain's [thank Gan for that, I couldn't take seeing that happen again].

also, Roland thinks that it's Susannah who reminds him of Alain (not Jake). The Waste Lands:

"What's wrong with you, Roland? Why you want to go recallin that trash in my mind?"
Now the sullen eyes glinted at him dangerously; they reminded him of Alain's
eyes when good-natured Alain was finally roused.

(...)

Roland paid no attention to this; he was coming to understand that Eddie's jokes and clowning were his way of dealing with stress. Cuthbert had not been much different ... as Susannah was, in her way, not so different from Alain.

[jayson]

I thought it was because of Eddie and Jake being representations of Roland's earlier ka-tet, that they should die in much of the same way. Didn't Cuthbert get shot in the eye, much like Eddie did?

That'd only cover Eddie really. Eddie's death was in some ways reminiscent of Bert's, but so far as I can see, Jake's death is not similar to Alain's [thank Gan for that, I couldn't take seeing that happen again].

also, Roland thinks that it's Susannah who reminds him of Alain (not Jake). The Waste Lands:

"What's wrong with you, Roland? Why you want to go recallin that trash in my mind?"
Now the sullen eyes glinted at him dangerously; they reminded him of Alain's
eyes when good-natured Alain was finally roused.

(...)

Roland paid no attention to this; he was coming to understand that Eddie's jokes and clowning were his way of dealing with stress. Cuthbert had not been much different ... as Susannah was, in her way, not so different from Alain.

That is true Jean, though Roland also makes several observations of Jake which also remind him of his original ka-mate, particularly concerning "the touch."

I don't buy into the notion that there are direct and exclusive connections between the original tet and the 19 tet. To me the similarities are ka putting the same kinds of people in Roland's path, not literally the same people.

[Darkthoughts]

To me the similarities are ka putting the same kinds of people in Roland's path, not literally the same people.

That's my take on it too :thumbsup:

[Jean]

yes, that's what I've always thought, too

[jayson]

Basically, Susannah got to go to that one place where they actually were brothers (not keystone by any stretch of the imagination) and Eddie never had the monkey.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder about your theory Matt. Would an alternate Eddie, one without the history of our Edward Cantor Dean be the same man Susannah was in love with? What each of them went through made them the two people who fell in love on the shore of the Western Sea. King is intentionally unclear as to just who this Eddie and Jake are, but it is not without possibility that they just don't remember who they were before.

[ManOfWesternesse]

....... King is intentionally unclear as to .......

I think that is one of the only certainties about this whole thing.
Intentionally unclear about different aspects for different reasons.
- some he wants us to use our own imagination on...
- some he simply wants unknown....
- some he simply does not know the answers to...?

[jayson]

I think that is one of the only certainties about this whole thing.
Intentionally unclear about different aspects for different reasons.
- some he wants us to use our own imagination on...
- some he simply wants unknown....
- some he simply does not know the answers to...?

That's what I love about it, no clear answers, only answers leading to bigger questions.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Agreed R_of_G , the whole ambiguity (sp?) even of that one example (just who are this Eddie & Jake?) sits fine with me.

[jayson]

Agreed R_of_G , the whole ambiguity (sp?) even of that one example (just who are this Eddie & Jake?) sits fine with me.

Indeed. It's a fun one to think about, but precisely because we don't know for sure. If we did, it would just be what it was and that would be it. I know you are my co-Tolkien geek, so I tell you it is one of the things I prefer about DT to LotR. LotR is brilliant, but the end is the end. Everything wraps up nicely and we know what becomes of everyone. DT leaves much more of the "after" to our imaginations. As someone who majored in Religious Studies and minored in Philosophy, I prefer the ambiguous.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Agree on teh LotR reference.
Anything that's not wrapped up in the Book is wrapped up in the Apendecies.
And anything he missed there is certainly wrapped up in one of a myriad of background books.

[Matt]

Basically, Susannah got to go to that one place where they actually were brothers (not keystone by any stretch of the imagination) and Eddie never had the monkey.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder about your theory Matt. Would an alternate Eddie, one without the history of our Edward Cantor Dean be the same man Susannah was in love with? What each of them went through made them the two people who fell in love on the shore of the Western Sea. King is intentionally unclear as to just who this Eddie and Jake are, but it is not without possibility that they just don't remember who they were before.

Exactly, remember that whole scene as she was waiting for him to turn around? She knew that only the basis of what Eddie was would still be there and hoped they could still love.

The alternate Eddie was not who she fell in love with by any means.

[zadok]

Why is any "version of Jake" there at all?? If you died in the "keystone earth" you were dead forever. Yet they were all "alive" in that NYC. Any insight?

That's fine if 1987 NYC is supposed to be a Grey Havens (speaking of LOTR) sort of "heaven for dead characters", but they should have all known each other, not referred to as "alive", and how did Susannah get there without dying?

[Matt]

Jake was there because in that reality, he was Eddies little brother. Just because Keystone Jake died in Keystone world doesn't mean that he doesn't exist on other levels of the tower.

For instance....

There is a version of me somewhere on the Tower that was never divorced. Never met Dora, never started this site--never happy really.

That poor guy is sitting there as we speak, on his level, still married (19 years it would have been just passed).

So yes, those two are totally different from any Eddie and Jake that Susannah has ever met but they are still essentially Eddie and Jake. Just different ones, different experiences, different everything.

The only inkling that Eddie and Jake have of Susannah is the dreams and feeling "drawn" to the fair grounds.

Even more interesting, Eddie is wearing a Nozz-a-la teeshirt so they could very well be the version of Eddie and Jake that had to endure the superflu in their future. What a screw for Susannah right? :lol:

[jayson]

Why is any "version of Jake" there at all?? If you died in the "keystone earth" you were dead forever. Yet they were all "alive" in that NYC. Any insight?

That's fine if 1987 NYC is supposed to be a Grey Havens (speaking of LOTR) sort of "heaven for dead characters", but they should have all known each other, not referred to as "alive", and how did Susannah get there without dying?

Not sure what the "rules" are for dying on different levels, or that King ever set any hard and fast rules for this.

As for the LotR, your view of the Grey Havens is a bit off. The Grey Havens were not "Heaven" in any form. The Grey Havens were nothing but a portion of Middle Earth where Cirdan the shipwright maintained the last of the boats which would return the elves into the West when they chose to depart Middle Earth. It's just a port. If you are referring to Valinor, the undying lands in the West, it is for elves only. Even Frodo would eventually have to come back to Middle Earth to physically die. Where he would go after that has never been answered in any Tolkien I've read, but he was clear that while Frodo and Bilbo [and mayhap even Sam] could go to Valinor as ring-bearers, they could not stay there forever. I would imagine the same would go for Gimli who got to go as Legolas' special friend.

[jayson]

Even more interesting, Eddie is wearing a Nozz-a-la teeshirt so they could very well be the version of Eddie and Jake that had to endure the superflu in their future. What a screw for Susannah right? :lol:

Of course it is possible that Nozz-a-la is served on many levels of the Tower. Being on a Nozz-a-la level doesn't guarantee that you are on a Superflu level. Afterall, I firmly believe there are at least two Superful levels. The story we read in The Stand happens in either 1980 or 1990 [depending on which version you've read]. According to the newspaper the tet picks up in Kansas, isn't it 1996 or something like that? Leads me to believe RF unleashed his fun-time virus on multiple levels.

[Matt]

I love that idea and I totally agree.

[zadok]

Not sure what the "rules" are for dying on different levels, or that King ever set any hard and fast rules for this.

Remember the multiple times they were in the keystone earth and dying there was "for good", "forever", etc.? In other words, contrasting it against the "rules" of the other worlds. If SK died in that world, the books could never be finished, etc.



As for the LotR, your view of the Grey Havens is a bit off. The Grey Havens were not "Heaven" in any form. The Grey Havens were nothing but a portion of Middle Earth where Cirdan the shipwright maintained the last of the boats which would return the elves into the West when they chose to depart Middle Earth. It's just a port. If you are referring to Valinor, the undying lands in the West, it is for elves only. Even Frodo would eventually have to come back to Middle Earth to physically die. Where he would go after that has never been answered in any Tolkien I've read, but he was clear that while Frodo and Bilbo [and mayhap even Sam] could go to Valinor as ring-bearers, they could not stay there forever. I would imagine the same would go for Gimli who got to go as Legolas' special friend.

My bad, you are correct. I was just thinking of SK's afterward where he made reference to a place "where characters go to die" and mentioned LOTR.

[jayson]

Remember the multiple times they were in the keystone earth and dying there was "for good", "forever", etc.? In other words, contrasting it against the "rules" of the other worlds. If SK died in that world, the books could never be finished, etc.

I agree with you that this is how the characters themselves interpreted the metaphysics of the different levels, but who's to say they are correct? The character Stephen King states outright that "Eddie and Cuthbert are twins," yet many of us, myself included, don't think this is necessarily so. The characters express their own understandings of the way the Tower works, but this is not to say their word is set in stone. I like the ambiguity.



My bad, you are correct. I was just thinking of SK's afterward where he made reference to a place "where characters go to die" and mentioned LOTR.

When I read the part you refer to I gave King the benefit of the doubt that he dis-remembered the specifics of LotR. I know what he meant, and I know what you meant as well. It was still a good reference on your part.

[Letti]

Why is it different for Susannah? I don't think we need reasons... I mean it wasn't a law that they all had to die next to Roland. For me it made the story more life-like.

But to tell you the truth I am still a bit angry with Susannah - I know it might be childish - that she could leave Roland there. And I don't know where and how she found some power in herself to do it.

[MonteGss]

But to tell you the truth I am still a bit angry with Susannah - I know it might be childish - that she could leave Roland there. And I don't know where and how she found some power in herself to do it.

It may sound childish but I still agree with you. Leaving Roland and throwing away that gun (yeah, yeah, it wasn't a gun then) really ticked me off.

[Letti]

But to tell you the truth I am still a bit angry with Susannah - I know it might be childish - that she could leave Roland there. And I don't know where and how she found some power in herself to do it.

It may sound childish but I still agree with you. Leaving Roland and throwing away that gun (yeah, yeah, it wasn't a gun then) really ticked me off.

*hugs you* it's good to know that I am not alone with it

[MonteGss]

Letti-hugs are the best hugs. :wub:

[jayson]

But to tell you the truth I am still a bit angry with Susannah - I know it might be childish - that she could leave Roland there. And I don't know where and how she found some power in herself to do it.



It may sound childish but I still agree with you. Leaving Roland and throwing away that gun (yeah, yeah, it wasn't a gun then) really ticked me off.

I agree with both of you, which was one of the reasons I started this thread. It wasn't until the second time I read DT-7 that I lost a little of my resentment for Susannah for her choices. I still resent her a bit for not having to pay the same price for a ticket to the hot chocolate level of the Tower as Jake and Eddie and Oy did.

[MonteGss]

Maybe there is only one Susannah...
So the only way to join them might be to drive through the door. *shrugs*

[jayson]

It's always about the Twinners with you isn't it Monte. lol:dance:
Still, your theory is as good as any.

[jayson]

will someone start a separate thread, then? http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif
(although I don't think I have much to add. To me it always seemed obvious. I might find arguments, though, when I see other opinions.)

it sounds like it's appropriate for my "why different for susannah" thread.my question, perhaps letti's as well, is why do feel susannah's choice to go through the door was motivated by love? i'm not sure it wasn't, but am equally not sure it was. i know she was repeatedly visited by the vision of eddie & jake in central park, but do you think she knew this is where she'd end up if she forsook the Tower and left Roland? she might have known. i suppose one could also make the case that if that's where she thinks eddie and jake wound up after they died that she might end up there as well so long as she stood true. the reason i started that thread was to try and hash out why she wound up in the same place for making a very different choice than jake, eddie or oy.

[Jean]

the post above was copied from Oy's Choice thread.

I never really thought of "why", it seemed obvious to me, like the whole story brought me to feeling that way.

“But you can’t be sure! Susannah, what if the dream itself is a trick and a glammer? What if the things you see even when the door’s open are nothing but tricks and glammers? What if you roll right through and into todash space?”
“Then I’ll light the darkness with thoughts of those I love.”

This kinda sums it up for me. I am ready to think of more reasons than "seemed obvious", though.

[jayson]

“Then I’ll light the darkness with thoughts of those I love.”[/COLOR]


Seems like good reasoning Jean. I actually forgot she says this. So yes, I could see believing love motivated Susannah's decision.

[Letti]

Jean, I didn't find anything in the book that would give me the idea that Susannah thought she would find Eddie at the other side.
Did I miss something?
She just went through that door to find something at the other side...


"Thought of those..." Plural form. Not just Eddie but all the others with Roland as well.

[Jean]

Nikolett: now it seems to me that we've been reading different books. I'll give more examples presently.

R_of_G: there's one another thing to all that. I hate simple symbolism in literature, but still. Everyone keeps sacrificing something for that Greater Good I (as a former Soviet citizen) learned to loath so much... Tull population gets massacred, Jake is dropped, old people in River Crossing left with no help, all people of Lud die horrible death without even a second thought from Roland (I know he didn't kill them. I believe you still see the point)... Someone at last had to sacrifice this fucking Greater Good for simple love, or I believe the Tower would have fallen whatever sacrifices were made for its sake.

[Matt]

I could not agree with you more on that point Jean. This was Susannah's way of showing that there are things more important than his damn Tower.

I think Roland could have learned a lot more from her.

[Letti]

Nikolett: now it seems to me that we've been reading different books. I'll give more examples presently.

I wouldn't like to be picky but if you have some time please show me those examples.
We didn't read different books but Susannah is much closer to your heart than any other character so it's possible some lines caught your attention that didn't catch mine.
But still if you have some time... I would like to see them.

[jayson]

I could not agree with you more on that point Jean. This was Susannah's way of showing that there are things more important than his damn Tower.

I think Roland could have learned a lot more from her.

Considering that "his damn tower" was the lynchpin holding all worlds together, is it not also possible to consider Suze's choice as selfish? It's nice that she forsook all else for her love, but what she ultimately forsook was all other worlds. Even if her motivation was something we can admire like "love," it is still an act of selfishness on her part. she wants what she wants, damn the consequences.

[Matt]

Sure, you could look it at that way. Everyone thing comes down to perception after all.

My comment is based on my growing certainty that the Tower is about Roland, not about existence.

However, lets say it was. Reminds me of Air Force One when the guy was going to shoot Harrison--he no talky. Going to shoot his daughter? Yes, I'll talk.

Because his love for her was more important than the entire free world (if you are to believe the hype). Seems totally plausible to make that choice to me. Was she being selfish? I'm not sure but its a damn good discussion topic.

[jayson]

My comment is based on my growing certainty that the Tower is about Roland, not about existence.

Here is where I both agree and disagree. Can it not be about both? What I am trying to say is that I agree that it is possible that the physical Tower in End-World is solely Roland's to enter, I still think the metaphysical Tower is the Axis, and should it be brought down ... goodnight worlds. I suppose what I am saying is that Roland is about the Tower [and thus my belief that his looping cannot end], but the Tower is about more than Roland.

[Jean]

I am sure without such "selfish" choices the Tower would fall. Or the world(s) would reset in such inhuman way everybody would wish it had fallen.

I am now just repeating what I said when I explained why I wouldn't follow Roland if it meant leaving those I love to the mercy of a world moving on (war, revolution, whatever); or what Matt said when he explained why Roland should not let Jake fall; or what I said when I expressed hope Roland would not kill people of Tull next time.

That's how I see the universe. It's not all that simple, and the cause-effect correlation is not linear.

If love should be sacrificed every time, this universe is not worth sacrificing anything.

He looked back up at the cackling thing in the bulldozer's peak-seat and saw that Gasher was gone. Now the man at the controls was Engineer Bob, from Charlie the Choo-Choo.
"Stop!" Eddie screamed. "For Christ's sake, stop!"
"I can't, Eddie. The world has moved on, and I can't stop. I must move on with it. "
And as the shadow of the 'dozer fell over the rose, as the blade tore through one of the posts holding up the sign (Eddie saw coming soon had changed to coming now), he realized that the man at the controls wasn't Engineer Bob, either.
It was Roland.

Don't go too hard about saving the universe, you might crush the rose.

[Matt]

If love should be sacrificed every time, this universe is not worth sacrificing anything.

Beautiful!! Perfectly said Jean

[jayson]

[COLOR="Blue"]He looked back up at the cackling thing in the bulldozer's peak-seat and saw that Gasher was gone. Now the man at the controls was Engineer Bob, from Charlie the Choo-Choo.
"Stop!" Eddie screamed. "For Christ's sake, stop!"
"I can't, Eddie. The world has moved on, and I can't stop. I must move on with it. "
And as the shadow of the 'dozer fell over the rose, as the blade tore through one of the posts holding up the sign (Eddie saw coming soon had changed to coming now), he realized that the man at the controls wasn't Engineer Bob, either.
It was Roland.

An important passage for sure, but think about what it was. It was a dream/vision Eddie has fairly early on in the scheme of things. Early enough that Eddie still had no real understanding of what the Tower really was and thus, hadn't come to a fully realized conception of just what Roland was really about. When Eddie sees the Rose for the first time he swears his fealty to it, which was a big step in my eyes. This was the point I think where Eddie could no longer turn back. With the true understaning of their quest, I wonder if Eddie would still agree with his dream that Roland may be the one to bring down the Tower. Perhaps not seeing the Rose played some role in Susannah's ulitmate decision to forsake the Tower.

[Jean]

"Is this ology-of-the-psyche? The cabala I have heard you and Susannah speak of?"
"Yes, I guess it is."
"It's shit," Roland said dismissively. "Mudpies of the mind. Dreams either mean nothing or everything -- and when they mean everything, they almost always come as messages from . . . well, from other levels of the Tower."

and that's where I'm sure it came from...

(anyway, I used it only to embellish my point, not to prove it)

[jayson]

i'd suggest it was the "mudpie" kind of dream, one made up of the incomplete bits of information eddie has to process at that point in the story. it is still early enough that he doesn't [and shouldn't] completely trust or understand Roland. it makes sense that his psyche would be troubled enough to send him dreams questioning his continuing to follow Roland. then again, what the hell do i know?

[Letti]

For my part I don't think that love is the most important thing is life. There are things that are over it.

And anyway for me that Eddie and Jake are not the same people. Not the people I loved and respected. Just two stragers with the same or similar name and body.
I might sound cruel but yeah, that how I feel so.
(We all have to go through the things that are in our way and they all help us to become the people we are right now. An Eddie without Henry and stuff is not Eddie to me.)

[Matt]

That's a sound argument Letti. I believe that Susannah thought of that very prospect as she was standing there wondering about the heroin.

And to me, love is easily the most important thing in life.

[Letti]

And to me, love is easily the most important thing in life.

I can understand it very easily and I am sure many people feel the same way (and it's good) but I just simply think that... we are here to do and to love - but you can see I put love at the second place - or we are here to do to be able to love. I don't know which but love is the second.
I hope it makes some sense. :rose:

[Jean]

it makes sense, but if you love (I include love of God here, too - for those who have religion) you at least have some guidelines that control what you do.

Personally, I'm torn between the concepts of love and honor... not losing face and all that samurai stuff... I don't know which would win if put to test.

But I know that I hope with all my heart there will always be people, especially women, who will tend to this (un)dying fire of love - love above all and before everything; and this, along with "doing" performed by men motivated by duty and honor, will keep our Tower from falling.

And Susannah was a woman. I admire and adore her for what she did.

[Letti]

For me love is not something that's over people something we just feel and dream about something oh so untoucable... for me love goes and fights and dies and suffers and does.
Love is like a nice field where you can (and should and must) build a nice castle where you can give home and warm soup to the people you love. If you just sit there watching your field and the roses that blow in the wind... you waste your love.
To feel love is not enough... to feel it and get lost in it is hardly anything.

That's how I think. :)
And that's how I try to live.

[Matt]

And to me, love is easily the most important thing in life.

I can understand it very easily and I am sure many people feel the same way (and it's good) but I just simply think that... we are here to do and to love - but you can see I put love at the second place - or we are here to do to be able to love. I don't know which but love is the second.
I hope it makes some sense. :rose:

I guess I just believe that when you start with love, the rest are natural byproducts. All wondrous things are possible in love

But yes, Letti, that totally makes sense. :couple:

[Letti]

Jean, I am happy to see your opinions but let me ask only one single question. I ask it because it's very interesting to me.
Okay, let's say Susannah was right when she chose the door and that other door. (We don't agree on it but it's not my point right now.)
Even if we say her decision was right
was it selfish, too?
That's my very short little question Jean - to you.
Was Susannah selfish?

[Letti]

And to me, love is easily the most important thing in life.

I can understand it very easily and I am sure many people feel the same way (and it's good) but I just simply think that... we are here to do and to love - but you can see I put love at the second place - or we are here to do to be able to love. I don't know which but love is the second.
I hope it makes some sense. :rose:

I guess I just believe that when you start with love, the rest are natural byproducts. All wondrous things are possible in love

But yes, Letti, that totally makes sense. :couple:
But I think love can ruin as well. It can destroy. That's why I don't think that if we start with love, the rest are natural by products.
If you don't love well (for example you love your little dove so much that you hug it too hard and you break its spine) you can make lots of scars on the loved one's heart.

[jayson]

But I think love can ruin as well. It can destroy. That's why I don't think that if we start with love, the rest are natural by products.

Well said Letti. Love is subjective, and subjectivity can lead people in many directions. I don't believe anything is absolutely "good" or "bad." I simply don't believe in absolutes.

[Matt]

I think squeezing a dove too hard isn't love :lol:

Love to me is making sure something like that never happens.

Also, what destroys was never love imo

[Brice]

...but to them who loves it is as real as your love.


I have no doubt Annie Wilkes loved the Paul Sheldon in her mind. The problem became when he wasn't quite that person.

[Matt]

We may have to disagree there. I do not believe what Annie had for Paul was love. It was something but not that.

[jayson]

I have no doubt Annie Wilkes loved the Paul Sheldon in her mind. The problem became when he wasn't quite that person.

Excellent example Brice. This is exactly what I meant when I said love is subjective, and it's subjective two-fold. Firstly it is subjective in the eyes of the person doing the loving as you point out with Annie Wilkes. Secondly it becomes more subjective when we might, as matt does, try to point out that it wasn't "really" love but obsession or something else. it's all perspective.

[Matt]

On that we totally agree. I know "love hurts" his very big but I have always thought that the one thing real love doesn't do is hurt.

I'm not saying we don't fight (and I said this to a friend earlier) but love always nourishes to me and never detracts when it is real.

What Annie had for Paul was not nourishment for her or him no matter what she thought.

[Brice]

On that we totally agree. I know "love hurts" his very big but I have always thought that the one thing real love doesn't do is hurt.

I'm not saying we don't fight (and I said this to a friend earlier) but love always nourishes to me and never detracts when it is real.

What Annie had for Paul was not nourishment for her or him no matter what she thought.

But, whether love is real or not is entirely subjective also.

[Matt]

Yep, totally personal perspective.

[Letti]

Love is a big purple dancing elephant.
I am sure about it. ;)

[Brice]

Ooohhh! I must see this elephant.

[jayson]

i want to go to the level of the Tower with purple dancing elephants!!!! :panic:

[Wuducynn]

Love is a big purple dancing elephant.
I am sure about it. ;)

http://xter.blogs.friendster.com/photos/sweet_bangkok/pink1.jpg

[Jean]

Nikolett: we've already spoken about the concept of selfishness before, and found out that we don't even agree on definitions. I wouldn't call Susannah selfish, as I wouldn't call so anyone who is in love; but it all depends on how you understand the word, of course.

[Letti]

Nikolett: we've already spoken about the concept of selfishness before, and found out that we don't even agree on definitions. I wouldn't call Susannah selfish, as I wouldn't call so anyone who is in love; but it all depends on how you understand the word, of course.

Anyway can say that they are in love, can't they?

[jayson]

Isn't a bit too easy to say that it is impossible for a person in love to act selfishly? I wouldn't absolutely rule out any type of behavior from any person. I do think Susannah acted selfishly, though I'm not altogether sure this was the "wrong" thing for her to do. That it's selfish only defines her motivations, it doesn't make the act right or wrong, which are also subjectives. No absolutes.

[Matt]

I'm just wondering selfish towards who? Existence? Roland? The Tower?

That's the part I don't understand because selfishness assumes someone (or thing) else getting the short end.

[Jean]

Isn't a bit too easy to say that it is impossible for a person in love to act selfishly? I wouldn't absolutely rule out any type of behavior from any person. I do think Susannah acted selfishly, though I'm not altogether sure this was the "wrong" thing for her to do. That it's selfish only defines her motivations, it doesn't make the act right or wrong, which are also subjectives. No absolutes.

yeah, right - sorry I was (and am) in a hurry, so didn't clearly articulate what I thought

a person can be selfish, act selfishly etc whether or not s/he is in love; what I meant was that an act of love (not person in love) is, in my opinion, never selfish. Then again, I am not sure what "selfish" means, and would be glad if the concept was defined to the satisfaction of all parties involved before we proceed. I have strong suspicion (confirmed elsewhere) that we mean different things.

[jayson]

I'm just wondering selfish towards who? Existence? Roland? The Tower?

That's the part I don't understand because selfishness assumes someone (or thing) else getting the short end.

All of the above, Existence primarily, though the Tower may mean the same to some. In my eyes her departure was due to her desire to be "happy" and reunited with Eddie regardless of what else that meant. She did not know one way or the other if her continued presence was necessary for Roland's quest, but she decided that she was going anyway. I found the throwing away of the gun to be very symbolic as to what Susannah was choosing. To me it showed that she had disdain for Roland's way, the way that Eddie and Jake followed to their deaths. I kinda like the idea I stumbled upon yesterday in one of these threads that not having seen the Rose up close and personal may have had something to do with Susannah's decisions. I dunno.

[Letti]

Wow, how many great posts. :) I am just about to ream them all but before that I have a thought that has just come to my mind and I would like to write it down:

I might be wrong but as I see the people who say or feel they are in love act the most selfishly.
(Because they think they have the right to be selfish because they are in love.)

[Matt]

I'm just wondering selfish towards who? Existence? Roland? The Tower?

That's the part I don't understand because selfishness assumes someone (or thing) else getting the short end.

All of the above, Existence primarily, though the Tower may mean the same to some. In my eyes her departure was due to her desire to be "happy" and reunited with Eddie regardless of what else that meant. She did not know one way or the other if her continued presence was necessary for Roland's quest, but she decided that she was going anyway. I found the throwing away of the gun to be very symbolic as to what Susannah was choosing. To me it showed that she had disdain for Roland's way, the way that Eddie and Jake followed to their deaths. I kinda like the idea I stumbled upon yesterday in one of these threads that not having seen the Rose up close and personal may have had something to do with Susannah's decisions. I dunno.

I never had the feeling Suze was into as much as the others. I also had a strong feeling she hated Roland for most of the trip.

Once her man was gone, can we blame her for not wanting to be around anymore? I personally don't think so.

But remember, the Tower was saved at that point ;)

[Letti]

I'm just wondering selfish towards who? Existence? Roland? The Tower?

That's the part I don't understand because selfishness assumes someone (or thing) else getting the short end.

All of the above, Existence primarily, though the Tower may mean the same to some. In my eyes her departure was due to her desire to be "happy" and reunited with Eddie regardless of what else that meant. She did not know one way or the other if her continued presence was necessary for Roland's quest, but she decided that she was going anyway. I found the throwing away of the gun to be very symbolic as to what Susannah was choosing. To me it showed that she had disdain for Roland's way, the way that Eddie and Jake followed to their deaths. I kinda like the idea I stumbled upon yesterday in one of these threads that not having seen the Rose up close and personal may have had something to do with Susannah's decisions. I dunno.

1. I never had the feeling Suze was into as much as the others.
2. I also had a strong feeling she hated Roland for most of the trip.

3. Once her man was gone, can we blame her for not wanting to be around anymore? I personally don't think so.

But remember, the Tower was saved at that point ;)

You are incredible Matt. If I am water you are fire if I am fire you are water. :rolleyes:

1. Much into others? Do you mean the other members of the ka-tet???
2. Hated? I don't think any ka-tet can work if one of the members hates the boss. Or more exactly can't work for long. Just look at friendships or anything. And this ka-tet did a lot so for my part I am sure all the members loved and respected the others.
3. First of all her man asked her to stand by Roland. Her man died for Roland. Roland was the man who saved her and gave her Eddie... etc.
I do can blame her.

[jayson]

I never had the feeling Suze was into as much as the others. I also had a strong feeling she hated Roland for most of the trip.

Once her man was gone, can we blame her for not wanting to be around anymore? I personally don't think so.

But remember, the Tower was saved at that point ;)

I agree with you about Susannah not being "all in." She could have cried off after Algul Siento and just refused to go anywhere after that, and that I might have understood a bit more, but when she continued to follow Roland there was no going back for me at that point.

[Letti]

I never had the feeling Suze was into as much as the others. I also had a strong feeling she hated Roland for most of the trip.

Once her man was gone, can we blame her for not wanting to be around anymore? I personally don't think so.

But remember, the Tower was saved at that point ;)

I agree with you about Susannah not being "all in." She could have cried off after Algul Siento and just refused to go anywhere after that, and that I might have understood a bit more, but when she continued to follow Roland there was no going back for me at that point.

And don't forget that she cried a lot before she left Roland (she hid behind bushes) because she felt she had to leave him. And she was not afraid of death and she knew those tears were not about death at all.

[jayson]

... Her man died for Roland. Roland was the man who saved her and gave her Eddie... etc.
I do can blame her.

I think that's the key for me as to why I resent Susannah's final choices. I think to not stand to the end dishonors Eddie, Jake & Oy.

[Matt]

I'm just wondering selfish towards who? Existence? Roland? The Tower?

That's the part I don't understand because selfishness assumes someone (or thing) else getting the short end.

All of the above, Existence primarily, though the Tower may mean the same to some. In my eyes her departure was due to her desire to be "happy" and reunited with Eddie regardless of what else that meant. She did not know one way or the other if her continued presence was necessary for Roland's quest, but she decided that she was going anyway. I found the throwing away of the gun to be very symbolic as to what Susannah was choosing. To me it showed that she had disdain for Roland's way, the way that Eddie and Jake followed to their deaths. I kinda like the idea I stumbled upon yesterday in one of these threads that not having seen the Rose up close and personal may have had something to do with Susannah's decisions. I dunno.

1. I never had the feeling Suze was into as much as the others.
2. I also had a strong feeling she hated Roland for most of the trip.

3. Once her man was gone, can we blame her for not wanting to be around anymore? I personally don't think so.

But remember, the Tower was saved at that point ;)

You are incredible Matt. If I am water you are fire if I am fire you are water. :rolleyes:

1. Much into others? Do you mean the other members of the ka-tet???
2. Hated? I don't think any ka-tet can work if one of the members hates the boss. Or more exactly can't work for long. Just look at friendships or anything. And this ka-tet did a lot so for my part I am sure all the members loved and respected the others.
3. First of all her man asked her to stand by Roland. Her man died for Roland. Roland was the man who saved her and gave her Eddie... etc.
I do can blame her.

Not always Letti, just in matters of destiny (Ka) I think. :huglove:

She just really didn't seem like she was into it like Jake and Eddie were to me--I'm not sure if that is correct but I was very far from surprised when she left

As far as your comment RofG--I believe she really did try to stick with him but once the opportunity presented itself, she decided to take it.

[Letti]

Matt, you think and say much worse things about Susannah than I do... how can you stand her at all??

[Matt]

I didn't say I liked her, I just said I understood her choice.

There is a big difference between liking someone (or their opinions) and understanding where they are coming from :rock:

[jayson]

As far as your comment RofG--I believe she really did try to stick with him but once the opportunity presented itself, she decided to take it.

Because she's selfish. ;)

[Matt]

:lol:

Or...she followed her heart.

I mean, are we going to call Roland selfish for killing all those people in the pursuit of his Tower?

[jayson]

:lol:

Or...she followed her heart.

I mean, are we going to call Roland selfish for killing all those people in the pursuit of his Tower?

In a sense, yes, but not in the same way. Roland never did any of it for himself. His palaver with Slightman on the ride to the Wolf battle shows how he feels about it, when he tells Slightman that he has betrayed people, even Jake, but he never took anything for himself like Slightman did the spectacles. Roland's quest is not for his own glory, but to save the Tower. To him little else matters because should the Tower fall nothing else matters as it would all cease to exist. If Susannah left unsure of the fate of the Tower as I suspect she did, she chose her own happiness over the continued existence of existence.

[Letti]

:lol:

Or...she followed her heart.

I mean, are we going to call Roland selfish for killing all those people in the pursuit of his Tower?

Of course Roland is selfish.
And it's so hard not to be selfish and that's why I love and respect Roland even more because day by day year by year he learnt to be not so selfish at all. And that's something.

[Matt]

Okay, I can agree with you guys.

Except for the idea that Susannah was unsure that the work was done. The Tower was saved after Blue Heaven fell.

And as far as the selfishness goes, perhaps she didn't learn as much as Roland did. Personally, I would have followed my heart the same way she did and I don't fault her for that decision.

but that's just me :grouphug:

[jayson]

The Tower was saved after Blue Heaven fell.


Then what was the point of the rest of it? I can see where saving King could be seen as necesary so he could write the books that would "make" the tet win the battle of Algul Siento, but the rest of it? If the Tower was ok, then Roland could have just dismissed Susannah when he and Jake and Oy left for Maine. Clearly he thought there was still work for Susannah to do. I suspect we won't ever agree on this one Matt. I think part of the cyclical nature of Roland's quest is the cyclical nature of the Tower's decline. It ALWAYS needs saving.

[Matt]

You are right, we won't agree on that :lol:

Doesn't she even ask Roland why he is going on and it is simply to see the thing? Isn't that his whole point? To climb the tower?

I am almost totally sure he was asked that question and said he was going regardless.

Not to mention, after all the years I have been mulling this over, I really believe that Tower was only falling for Roland, not existence.

And you are right, Rolands Tower will always need saving

[Wuducynn]

Awwwwwwwwwwwww Gan was only falling for Roland.... :huglove:

[jayson]

You are right, we won't agree on that :lol:

Doesn't she even ask Roland why he is going on and it is simply to see the thing? Isn't that his whole point? To climb the tower?

I am almost totally sure he was asked that question and said he was going regardless.


I thought his intention was to climb to the top to see what was there because he suspected someting was wrong there. I surmise he thought he could or should try to fix it.

I agree with you that the Tower he actually enters is his and his alone.

[Matt]

I always gathered that he was going to the top simply because that was the point of his quest.

I'll have to re read that bit but I am almost sure that is the case.

[Wuducynn]

I think he was torn between wanting to save the Tower and to climb to the top room, priorities wise. In his heart of hearts reaching the Tower and climbing to the top seemed to win out though.

[jayson]

I really believe that Tower was only falling for Roland, not existence.


What are the metaphysical ramifications of this? We see that there is a Tower, that there is a CK, that there are Breakers. So by this view, if the Breakers succeeded and the Tower fell, what would happen? Would Roland just die and everything else stay the same?

[Wuducynn]

Definitely, the Dark Tower was falling. Period.

[Matt]

I really believe that Tower was only falling for Roland, not existence.


What are the metaphysical ramifications of this? We see that there is a Tower, that there is a CK, that there are Breakers. So by this view, if the Breakers succeeded and the Tower fell, what would happen? Would Roland just die and everything else stay the same?

I may be taking this too far but we have already conceded that the Tower could be different for everyone. So if that is the case, then its easy for me to believe the "manifestation" that Roland encountered was "his Tower"

[Darkthoughts]

But all the people who acknowledged that the world was moving on, felt it too. If the Tower was falling for Roland only, I think it would have made the whole tale a bit null and void.

I think the experience of being inside the Tower is different for everyone, but its a universal lynchpin of existance in its entireity.

[Matt]

Thats not what I mean though, I understand the Tower was falling and everyone felt it but remember..."everyone" was in Rolands loop no?

I'm not sure how to explain this, its just a gut feeling. If people die in your dream, it is still your dream.

[Letti]

Roland is the Gan of the Tower...? *is unsure* sorry but this was my first thought as I read your last post, Matt.

[Darkthoughts]

Ok, I see where you're coming from and thats an interesting perspective...but I don't share it :lol:

I really want to believe that Roland finds peace at the top of the Tower one day, but his quest also seems to stand for the eternal struggle between good and evil, ka is a wheel and all that.
So, if it were the case that the Tower was only falling for Roland, I'd have to argue that that would make Roland our reality (ie, he and the CK are as integral to life as the sun and the moon and Roland's quest could take generations each time) - rather than we being metaphorical figments of Roland's imagination, on his particular level of the Tower.

Did that make sense? :orely:

[Letti]

I think when Sai King put himself into the story he wanted to us =or to himself) know that this whole thing is much much bigger than Roland... it's about all of us.
That's how I felt.

[Matt]

That does make sense, even though I don't agree :couple:

This was really hard for me you guys, the reason I gravitated towards this story so fully was because it was a quest for all of existence (or so it seemed)

Now, after all these years and the end of the story. I am beginning to believe that the Tower is strictly about Roland and the only way to keep it from falling (salvation for Rolands world) is for him to not go there again.

[Darkthoughts]

Oh the paradoxes!! :lol: I believed that too...like utterly the first couple of times I read the series. But now I believe its the way in which he acts to others/himself/choices in general that will be his salvation upon reaching the tower.

Like we've discussed before I think saving Jake initially is the key. So, perhaps in Roland's mind this means crying off - but I still believe he'd reach it in the end, because its his ka.

[jayson]

So, if it were the case that the Tower was only falling for Roland, I'd have to argue that that would make Roland our reality (ie, he and the CK are as integral to life as the sun and the moon and Roland's quest could take generations each time) - rather than we being metaphorical figments of Roland's imagination, on his particular level of the Tower.

Did that make sense? :orely:

Not only does it make sense Lisa, but it is VERY close to how I see things given the ending. As a comparative religion nut, I was THRILLED with the cyclical implications of the ending. At that point Roland crossed over into the world of "mythical" characters, which is why I believe there is no "salvation" for Roland, the Tower is ALWAYS in danger and Roland ALWAYS saves it. I am a long way from interpreting each metaphor, but I agree that Roland and his worlds are the metaphor, not the other way around.

[Darkthoughts]

Thank you, I respect your opinion alot from your posts so far, so that was much appreciated :D

[jayson]

Thank you, I respect your opinion alot from your posts so far, so that was much appreciated :D

Right back at you. :D

[R.F.]

I have a feeling that had Suse not renounced the Tower, she would have ended up taking a Sneetch to the face. Possibly to wake up in the snow to accept hot chocolate from some handsome guy with hazel eyes and a little brother.

[jayson]

I have a feeling that had Suse not renounced the Tower, she would have ended up taking a Sneetch to the face. Possibly to wake up in the snow to accept hot chocolate from some handsome guy with hazel eyes and a little brother.

And what would be wrong with that? Eddie took a bullet to the face. Jake took a minivan to the face. Oy took on Spider-Brat. Why did Susannah just get to say "screw you guys, I'm going home"?

[R.F.]

I am not sure, but I felt like it was slightly cheap. Perhaps it was to make up for the horrible way that Susan Delgado was dealt her fate?

[childeluke]

If you look at it another way, Susannah has died several times(as several different people). For some reason or another ka saw fit to remove her from Roland's life. Also, do you believe Roland would be introduced as Eddie and Jakes father later on, already possibly deceased?

[jayson]

If you look at it another way, Susannah has died several times(as several different people).

Metaphorically, sure. Jake, on the other hand, died physically several times. What makes Susannah so special that she can renounce the Tower and "walk" away?


Also, do you believe Roland would be introduced as Eddie and Jakes father later on, already possibly deceased?

Personally I do not, but that's because I don't believe Roland will be freed from the loop. As for their deceased father, I don't think so either. The metaphysical implications of that would be that there is more than one Roland, which I don't believe.

Still, it's an interesting question and I wonder what some of the other folks here think about it.

[Brice]

If you look at it another way, Susannah has died several times(as several different people).

Metaphorically, sure. Jake, on the other hand, died physically several times. What makes Susannah so special that she can renounce the Tower and "walk" away?





Maybe, it was her reward for renouncing the tower and walking away?

[Childe 007]

Susan gets to live this time.

[jayson]

Maybe, it was her reward for renouncing the tower and walking away?

Right, but that was my original point [I think]. If Eddie, Jake & Oy all got the same reward for standing true to the end that Susannah got for crying off, what's the point?

[jayson]

Susan gets to live this time.

I'm not sure I see the connection you do between things that happen to Susan and things that happen to Susannah. Other than the name similarities, I see nothing which evidences any direct correlation between the two. For that matter, why do you think Susan lives "this time" [by which I assume you mean in the next loop]? If Roland starts again at the desert we have no reason to assume we know what happened "this time" prior to that.

[To The Dark Tower Came]

I've talked a little about what I think the Tower is and means in other threads, so I won't do all that here. I think that the reason Susannah left without dying is simple.

She was Roland's last chance not to fall into the cycle (again) we see at the end. When she is tugged at by the feeling that she is not meant to see the Tower, renouncing it, it's another signal to Roland that his tet is trying to save him from his fate.

Perhaps if he had heard her, heard her very well, that she was not supposed to goto the Tower, and figured out that she was feeling the pull of ka, and that maybe a little of their tet's magic remained, he should not go as well. He could have turned aside and gone with her. Lived life, truly involved in it. So Susannah was the voice of ka, in my opinion. But she survived almost to the Tower so she could deliver this last message by her words and actions.

[Matt]

Very well said man, I totally agree.

I'm not sure if I would have wanted him to actually go with her but he really could have learned something from her right then imo

[Letti]

I've talked a little about what I think the Tower is and means in other threads, so I won't do all that here. I think that the reason Susannah left without dying is simple.

She was Roland's last chance not to fall into the cycle (again) we see at the end. When she is tugged at by the feeling that she is not meant to see the Tower, renouncing it, it's another signal to Roland that his tet is trying to save him from his fate.

Perhaps if he had heard her, heard her very well, that she was not supposed to goto the Tower, and figured out that she was feeling the pull of ka, and that maybe a little of their tet's magic remained, he should not go as well. He could have turned aside and gone with her. Lived life, truly involved in it. So Susannah was the voice of ka, in my opinion. But she survived almost to the Tower so she could deliver this last message by her words and actions.
What an interesting point. I will have to think about it but I like it already. I am sure I won't agree on everything but you showed me something I didn't or I couldn't see before. Thank you for it.
Let me think about it..

[ZoNeSeeK]

If there is a reason (because the answer to "Why?" could simply be "Why not?"), then I think its for a similar reason as to why Callahan was left open after 'Salems Lot - King probably wants Susannah (the same Susannah that stood with Roland, not an alternate version) to be available for future works. He could have something boiling in the back of his mind, maybe for the next Sawyer adventure? He has said "No more Roland stories", but he never said anything about Susannah. Who knows?

[Matt]

That's a very good point. I suppose he could bring the three of them back at this point.

Little Jake would have a loyal dog and remember weird stuff about another friend.

[obscurejude]

I've talked a little about what I think the Tower is and means in other threads, so I won't do all that here. I think that the reason Susannah left without dying is simple.

She was Roland's last chance not to fall into the cycle (again) we see at the end. When she is tugged at by the feeling that she is not meant to see the Tower, renouncing it, it's another signal to Roland that his tet is trying to save him from his fate.

Perhaps if he had heard her, heard her very well, that she was not supposed to goto the Tower, and figured out that she was feeling the pull of ka, and that maybe a little of their tet's magic remained, he should not go as well. He could have turned aside and gone with her. Lived life, truly involved in it. So Susannah was the voice of ka, in my opinion. But she survived almost to the Tower so she could deliver this last message by her words and actions.

Well said. Like Matt, I'm not sure I would have wanted Roland to go with her but I think you posed a very viable opinion as to why it was different for Susannah. I never really thought of Susannah as much of a gunslinger anyways (not that you implied that). Her role in the tale always seemed different from the others in the sense that she aided the quest in significant ways that had little to do with guns and bullets (I'm not saying she didn't have her moments with a sixshooter or a Riza).

[To The Dark Tower Came]

Well said. Like Matt, I'm not sure I would have wanted Roland to go with her but I think you posed a very viable opinion as to why it was different for Susannah. I never really thought of Susannah as much of a gunslinger anyways (not that you implied that). Her role in the tale always seemed different from the others in the sense that she aided the quest in significant ways that had little to do with guns and bullets (I'm not saying she didn't have her moments with a sixshooter or a Riza).

Thankee, sai.

I always saw her as the face of reality in Roland's tet. Jake was Rolan'd child-side, forced to grow up fast, betrayed by someone he loved, Eddie was Roland's human side, the "screw you", I'm gonna laugh in your face, wise cracking side. These were aspects Roland lacked (and should have learned from).

Susannah represented a look at reality. The way things are instead of deluding oneself. She was a literal living duality, that made a whole person who saw things more close to how they really were, than the others. She had set backs (lol) with Mia, and such, but even that helped her. Hearing Mia helped her understand the state of their journey, the overwhelming state. And in the end she was that look of reality that said, "It's over. I no longer need this Tower. I'm going to live my life. Not going? Bye."

She was in that cycle what Roland was supposed to be. She got rewarded for it.

[jayson]

I always saw her as the face of reality in Roland's tet. Jake was Rolan'd child-side, forced to grow up fast, betrayed by someone he loved, Eddie was Roland's human side, the "screw you", I'm gonna laugh in your face, wise cracking side. These were aspects Roland lacked (and should have learned from).

Back to our use-your-own-metaphor version of buddhism discussion, this is one where i agree with you. the members of the tet can easily represent aspects in which roland's personality is lacking. they play a similar role to dorothy's companions, each one representing something she was lacking in herself. i think it no coincidence that king made multiple references to the wizard of oz.

[Letti]

obscurejude, it's interesting that you didn't think of Susannah as much of a gunslinger. Susannah is not my favourite character I have quite mixed feelings about her but she is a big great gunslinger in my eyes no question.

[To The Dark Tower Came]

Back to our use-your-own-metaphor version of buddhism discussion, this is one where i agree with you. the members of the tet can easily represent aspects in which roland's personality is lacking. they play a similar role to dorothy's companions, each one representing something she was lacking in herself. i think it no coincidence that king made multiple references to the wizard of oz.

It's a pretty common theme in literature, especially fantasy. Eddie, Jake, and Susannah being what Roland should have been as an individual in order to carry out his journey making the decisions with the benefit of those aspects. Though I know you dislike the theory (heh), I think that as Roland progresses towards his individual "enlightenment" characters like Susannah, Eddie, Jake, and others too, would be less necessary.

Notice when all the character's leave the story. Eddie dies in Blue Heaven, because from there on, Roland has no more need of humor. He has already missed that aspect in Eddie although we glimpse it's roots deepening, he still isn't learning. Jake dies after saving King because Roland cannot put love, even of one he calls his son, above the mission to save his Tower though again we see the roots deepen but not fully form. And like I said, he can't hear Susannah's last message to him to see thing for what they really are. He doesn't need to enter the Tower, he has already saved it.

Susannah does understand this, and goes. Rewarded by Gan for her real sacrifices and full understanding.

[jayson]

Though I know you dislike the theory (heh), I think that as Roland progresses towards his individual "enlightenment" characters like Susannah, Eddie, Jake, and others too, would be less necessary.

That portion of the theory not only do I not dislike, I agree with. That is why I don't believe the loops are the same every time. He doesn't need the same thing in his ka-mates every time. He may not even need ka-mates every time. What I ultimately don't believe is that the Tower can ever be put safe permanently. It is Roland's duty to protect it, in perpetuity.

[obscurejude]

obscurejude, it's interesting that you didn't think of Susannah as much of a gunslinger. Susannah is not my favourite character I have quite mixed feelings about her but she is a big great gunslinger in my eyes no question.

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

[To The Dark Tower Came]

That portion of the theory not only do I not dislike, I agree with. That is why I don't believe the loops are the same every time. He doesn't need the same thing in his ka-mates every time. He may not even need ka-mates every time. What I ultimately don't believe is that the Tower can ever be put safe permanently. It is Roland's duty to protect it, in perpetuity.

My mistake, I did know we agreed on the loops, just the reason behind them, we disagree ...heh

[To The Dark Tower Came]

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

Of course she did :) She knew it was no longer a necessity. She had moved beyond it.

[obscurejude]

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

Of course she did :) She knew it was no longer a necessity. She had moved beyond it.

I don't agree with you across the board, but we certainly agree that her role was very different in Roland's quest- i.e. beyond that of a gunslinger. I have ambivalent feelings about this particular scene though, and am still sorting through what it means exactly.

[Letti]

obscurejude, it's interesting that you didn't think of Susannah as much of a gunslinger. Susannah is not my favourite character I have quite mixed feelings about her but she is a big great gunslinger in my eyes no question.

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

Do you mean that before that she was a big gunslinger to you?

[obscurejude]

obscurejude, it's interesting that you didn't think of Susannah as much of a gunslinger. Susannah is not my favourite character I have quite mixed feelings about her but she is a big great gunslinger in my eyes no question.

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

Do you mean that before that she was a big gunslinger to you?

No, Letti. Like I said, she had her moments, but she was different than the others. That is why (I believe anyways) that her ending was different than the rest of the Ka-Tet's. They would have gone on to the tower, even if Roland died. (Eddie said so himself plenty of times). Susannah was different. She didn't continue, and I can't think of a more vivid way to portray that than her throwing away the gun. It was a fitting end because it was the way she was portrayed from the beginning. So, she was always that way to me to answer your question.

[Wuducynn]

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

At the point she threw it in the trashcan it sure didn't seem to be one of the Guns of Eld anymore, it had changed and was just a piece of metal in the shape of a gun.

[obscurejude]

I don't know how to respond to that.

[Letti]

obscurejude, it's interesting that you didn't think of Susannah as much of a gunslinger. Susannah is not my favourite character I have quite mixed feelings about her but she is a big great gunslinger in my eyes no question.

She threw one of the guns of Eld in a trashcan!

Do you mean that before that she was a big gunslinger to you?

No, Letti. Like I said, she had her moments, but she was different than the others. That is why (I believe anyways) that her ending was different than the rest of the Ka-Tet's. They would have gone on to the tower, even if Roland died. (Eddie said so himself plenty of times). Susannah was different. She didn't continue, and I can't think of a more vivid way to portray that than her throwing away the gun. It was a fitting end because it was the way she was portrayed from the beginning. So, she was always that way to me to answer your question.

I see your point but I didn't see her this way.
They all were very different and similar at the same time.
For my part I am not sure at all that Jake could have gone on if Roland had died. Eddie could but Jake... I am not sure.

[alinda]

This statement is brillant.It's something I had not thought of. Its been a whike since someone said something so.....remarkable. Thanks!




What I ultimately don't believe is that the Tower can ever be put safe permanently. It is Roland's duty to protect it, in perpetuity.[/QUOTE]

[jayson]

i too have problems with susannah trashing the gun, though i agree with matt that it was no longer a gun of the eld so to speak. nonetheless, it was still a sigul of the eld and she still had the knowledge of what that meant and chose to symbolically trash it. i would never say susannah wasn't a gunslinger, her actions throughout show she was. it's bc i see her as a gunslinger that i have issues with what she did with the gun.

[MonteGss]

i too have problems with susannah trashing the gun, though i agree with matt that it was no longer a gun of the eld so to speak. nonetheless, it was still a sigul of the eld and she still had the knowledge of what that meant and chose to symbolically trash it. i would never say susannah wasn't a gunslinger, her actions throughout show she was. it's bc i see her as a gunslinger that i have issues with what she did with the gun.

My thoughts EXACTLY. Well said. I will never be able to forgive her for throwing that gun away, no matter what it looked like after she went thru the door.

[jayson]

it's the ultimate souvenir, whether or not she remembers the trip in the end.

[Wuducynn]

At the point she threw it in the trashcan it sure didn't seem to be one of the Guns of Eld anymore, it had changed and was just a piece of metal in the shape of a gun.

<-----Again...it WASN'T one of the Guns of Eld anymore. Stepping through the magic door changed it.

[MonteGss]

NO! NO! NO!
Don't make me kick your sorry little pansy ass.

[jayson]

so therefore it couldn't represent one to somebody who actually bore one? i know it physically changed, but it could have been nonetheless symbolic to a gunslinger.

[Wuducynn]

Bring it on motherfucker...if you think you can handle me..bring it on!

[jayson]

it;s nice to have monte back, try not to kill him matt.

[MonteGss]

As if he could. :)

[Wuducynn]

so therefore it couldn't represent one to somebody who actually bore one? i know it physically changed, but it could have been nonetheless symbolic to a gunslinger.

She was forgetting her life as a gunslinger with the change of the gun..so it wasn't what it used to be to her and in of itself. She was going to a new life.

[Wuducynn]

it;s nice to have monte back, try not to kill him matt.

He was gone? Oh I guess I'll let your girlfriend live for a little while. If he starts getting sand in his vagina I might have to lock him in the nearest womans room.

[LadyHitchhiker]

It would have made much more sense to me if Jake wasn't there. He's the only one that died in the "Keystone earth"...


Agreeed

[Darkthoughts]

Very good point, Zadok!

[obscurejude]

Very good point, Zadok!

That is quite the conundrum.

[Matt]

I think the "keystone earth" thing only means if "keystone you" dies, you will not reappear anywhere else on the Tower.

The Jake at the end did not appear there, he lived there. His whole life as Eddies brother in the infinite possibilities of the Tower

[Letti]

Maybe it depends on where you were born and not where you died, hm?

[obscurejude]

I think the "keystone earth" thing only means if "keystone you" dies, you will not reappear anywhere else on the Tower.

The Jake at the end did not appear there, he lived there. His whole life as Eddies brother in the infinite possibilities of the Tower

Good point.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Hmmmmmmmmmm.... so this totally messes with my alternate universe sci-fi-edumucation...

[wildfire1290]

Maybe the Crimson King was just messing with her and making her see the dreams of Eddie and Jake in hopes of her leaving Roland on his quest?

[obscurejude]

Maybe the Crimson King was just messing with her and making her see the dreams of Eddie and Jake in hopes of her leaving Roland on his quest?

I wish he would have done that a lot sooner. :evil:

[wildfire1290]

Maybe the Crimson King was just messing with her and making her see the dreams of Eddie and Jake in hopes of her leaving Roland on his quest?

I wish he would have done that a lot sooner. :evil:

Ha ha. Not too big a fan of Susannah?

[Letti]

Maybe the Crimson King was just messing with her and making her see the dreams of Eddie and Jake in hopes of her leaving Roland on his quest?

I can't imagine CK is spending his time with such things. And it doesn't break Roland so much.

[wildfire1290]

Maybe the Crimson King was just messing with her and making her see the dreams of Eddie and Jake in hopes of her leaving Roland on his quest?

I can't imagine CK is spending his time with such things. And it doesn't break Roland so much.

Maybe he thought that because Roland was now accustomed to traveling with companions he would try to break Roland's spirit once again by sending him down another road of solitude. Apparently the CK thought wrong...

[Indigo_Seven]

However, I picked up on the name Susannah. She herself talks about how similar her name is to Susan, i.e. Susan Delgado. Another Susan being from Lewis' Narnia Chronicles. She too was singled out and excluded from the quest at the very end, by partial choice. Anything in that, or am I looking too deeply? In both cases, both women miss out on the chance to "meet 'God'" as depicted in the books, for the final time...

[Letti]

Maybe the Crimson King was just messing with her and making her see the dreams of Eddie and Jake in hopes of her leaving Roland on his quest?

I can't imagine CK is spending his time with such things. And it doesn't break Roland so much.

Maybe he thought that because Roland was now accustomed to traveling with companions he would try to break Roland's spirit once again by sending him down another road of solitude. Apparently the CK thought wrong...

As I have said I can't imagine it. It's absolutely okay if you think this way that's why we are here to show each other our different views.
But I think Susannah wasn't a silly chick so she would have felt if those dream had been created by something dark.
It would have been such a weak trap... CK knew Roland and he should have known that such a thing couldn't break him so much.

[wildfire1290]

Maybe the Crimson King was just messing with her and making her see the dreams of Eddie and Jake in hopes of her leaving Roland on his quest?

I can't imagine CK is spending his time with such things. And it doesn't break Roland so much.

Maybe he thought that because Roland was now accustomed to traveling with companions he would try to break Roland's spirit once again by sending him down another road of solitude. Apparently the CK thought wrong...

As I have said I can't imagine it. It's absolutely okay if you think this way that's why we are here to show each other our different views.
But I think Susannah wasn't a silly chick so she would have felt if those dream had been created by something dark.
It would have been such a weak trap... CK knew Roland and he should have known that such a thing couldn't break him so much.

I'm just a little confused on why exactly she left. I thought she wanted to see the dark tower and go with Roland when he finally does his thing there, and then she just decides to leave.

[Letti]

I am confused, too.

[Jean]

I think she never took the Dark Tower so very seriously (only a man would). She wanted to fulfill her own destiny, and that's what she did. In the end, she went to find the one she loved, and she found him.

(if you think it's not him that she found, there's a specific thread treating that question, too)

[alinda]

I think she never took the Dark Tower so very seriously (only a man would). ?????????????? Oh no... the gates have opened ?
What do you mean by this oh wisest of the bears? Are you serious?

[Brice]

*runs the hell out of this thread*


:rofl:

[Jean]

Are you serious?
yes. I don't think a woman can ever be as single-minded as a man when things other than people are concerned. If something is for a woman so big that it replaces the whole existence, it is either her child, or her man, or herself - but it is a human being. Otherwise she is usually a more... can't find the right word - generous soul than a man. That explains, by the way, why there are so (comparatively) few women among great artists or scientists: not because women are less talented or intelligent, but because they are very rarely willing to sacrifice the whole infinite richness of life for something as unimportant as scientific truth or a few colors on a canvas. For a human being - maybe; but not for an abstraction, or career, or mankind as a whole, or an idea etc

(thank God for that last, by the way. The experience has shown that when women still do chose something single over everything else, they are so much bigger fanatics than men that sometimes the mind fails to comprehend such extent of fanaticism, both cruelty and self-sacrificing included)

woman is of the whole, not of a part

man is usually someone who fails to see the forest behind the trees (and can destroy the forest trying to save a tree); women very seldom. That's, by the way, I think what is called "women's intuition" is based upon. The synthesis is more important than the abstraction. The old "emotional vs. rational" is bullshit; female vs. male is whole vs. parts.

[alinda]

Okay, well you've managed to answer that quite well.
*all wind has escaped the sails* Smiles again, cuz I
think your right (again) lets resume the Susannah
aspects then shall we? ;)

[wildfire1290]

But Susannah only tagging along to get what she wanted out of the journey, kinda seems sort of a bitch thing to do. I mean she only went along with something and left off when it was convient (sp) for her and she got all she wanted and didn't want to stay and see how the rest of the journey unfolded.

[Letti]

Susannah chose the door because she had nothing to lose.

[wildfire1290]

Susannah chose the door because she had nothing to lose.

But I thought she wanted to see the Tower with Roland though...

[Letti]

Susannah chose the door because she had nothing to lose.

But I thought she wanted to see the Tower with Roland though...

Yes, she did but with Eddie's death lots of things changed in her.
Don't forget that it was hard for Roland, too to take care of King when Jake was dying, he wanted to be next to Jake but he couldn't because he didn't want to make Jake's death pointless. That's why he spent that time with King.
Roland had to go on to give meaning to each death he met or caused. Susannah's situation was very different.
(But don't think I wasn't shocked when she left, in fact I was incredibly angry with her and I still am even if I might know the reasons.)

[Matt]

I think Susannah just knew how to "prioritize". Sure she wanted to see the Tower but it was clear all along that the reason she was tagging along is because she loved Eddie. And I agree with Jean, I believe women are not as likely to throw away everything in a "tunnel vision" kind of thing for an inanimate object. People yes, the Tower, no.

I think this does coincide with Susan too because had she and Roland remained together, she would not have understood the Tower either.

Not that women can't grasp...imo they are deeper than men for the most part.

[Jean]

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gifexactly what I meant. One doesn't have to be "deep" to let something grow out of proportion, which is what a man would so often do

[alinda]

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r66/alinda47/Nurse_loves_Pooh_by_tm2cruz.gif

[wildfire1290]

Susannah chose the door because she had nothing to lose.

But I thought she wanted to see the Tower with Roland though...

Yes, she did but with Eddie's death lots of things changed in her.
Don't forget that it was hard for Roland, too to take care of King when Jake was dying, he wanted to be next to Jake but he couldn't because he didn't want to make Jake's death pointless. That's why he spent that time with King.
Roland had to go on to give meaning to each death he met or caused. Susannah's situation was very different.
(But don't think I wasn't shocked when she left, in fact I was incredibly angry with her and I still am even if I might know the reasons.)

I don't know though, I think Susannah should have kept going with Roland in honor of Eddie dying on their quest to get to the Tower. Maybe continue to the Tower in the name of her dead husband?

[Matt]

Hmmm...I'm not sure. It didn't really seem to be a part of her all the way through to me. I'm not sure she ever really pronounced her willingness to go except through Eddie. Kind of a..."me and Suze are going all the way Roland"

<Suze nods>

So I think she wasn't really in and there was no reason for her to be imo. Btw, I feel the same way about Jake. It wasn't the Tower for Jake, it was Roland. He would have followed his "father" to the ends of the Earth. Literally.

Eddie? Oh yeah. He was in for the Tower all the way. But he was also a junkie. Roland was the original Tower junkie and Eddie didn't mind a hit of that shit either. :lol:

I think the only other would have been Callahan. He was a junkie in his own way, in a broad sense of course.

[wildfire1290]

Hmmm...I'm not sure. It didn't really seem to be a part of her all the way through to me. I'm not sure she ever really pronounced her willingness to go except through Eddie. Kind of a..."me and Suze are going all the way Roland"

<Suze nods>

So I think she wasn't really in and there was no reason for her to be imo. Btw, I feel the same way about Jake. It wasn't the Tower for Jake, it was Roland. He would have followed his "father" to the ends of the Earth. Literally.

Eddie? Oh yeah. He was in for the Tower all the way. But he was also a junkie. Roland was the original Tower junkie and Eddie didn't mind a hit of that shit either. :lol:

I think the only other would have been Callahan. He was a junkie in his own way, in a broad sense of course.

Sadly, Ka took care of everyone, except for Roland and Patrick ( Who I never expected to do his fancy work with his pencil in the end)

[Ves'Ka Gan]

Maybe there is only one Susannah...
So the only way to join them might be to drive through the door. *shrugs*

I think you just gave me an epiphany. Reading up til this point I didn't have an answer. But it makes perfect sense. There is possibly an Odetta Holmes or a version of her in other levels of the tower, but if that Odetta Holmes did not have the same experiences as the keystone Odetta, then it is possible that Detta Walker never came to be. Without Detta, there could be no Susannah. If Susannah died on any level of the Tower--she would forever be gone.

As for Jake & Eddie being brothers in the "new" world, I always assumed that it was Ka that they should be brothers. It is clear that they both viewed Roland as their "father" in one way or another in his world. So in dying, and getting to the new world, of course they would be brothers.

And I sincerely, truly and completely hope there is an Oy in that world, too. Although he probably wouldn't be able to talk!

[obscurejude]

Susannah chose the door because she had nothing to lose.

But I thought she wanted to see the Tower with Roland though...

Yes, she did but with Eddie's death lots of things changed in her.
Don't forget that it was hard for Roland, too to take care of King when Jake was dying, he wanted to be next to Jake but he couldn't because he didn't want to make Jake's death pointless. That's why he spent that time with King.
Roland had to go on to give meaning to each death he met or caused. Susannah's situation was very different.
(But don't think I wasn't shocked when she left, in fact I was incredibly angry with her and I still am even if I might know the reasons.)

I don't know though, I think Susannah should have kept going with Roland in honor of Eddie dying on their quest to get to the Tower. Maybe continue to the Tower in the name of her dead husband?

I just read this section over the weekend. I think you are all forgetting that the Tower itself was only singing for Roland. They both knew it. Susannah was only being obedient. I just wished she had the opportunity to get the hell out of the way sooner.

[MonteGss]

I know you're right jude and the Tower did only sing for Roland but I still can't forgive her for abandoning Roland and throwing that gun away.

[The Lady of Shadows]

I know you're right jude and the Tower did only sing for Roland but I still can't forgive her for abandoning Roland and throwing that gun away.

i couldn't care less about anything else. it's the throwing the gun away that pisses me off.

[jayson]

I know you're right jude and the Tower did only sing for Roland but I still can't forgive her for abandoning Roland and throwing that gun away.

i couldn't care less about anything else. it's the throwing the gun away that pisses me off.

Thirded. Motion carries.

[Matt]

I'm not sure I blame her for that, it was done.

Not to mention, she was very rapidly forgetting everything that happened to her, perhaps keeping it was impossible (talking about Gan and the Tower here.)

[Letti]

I know you're right jude and the Tower did only sing for Roland but I still can't forgive her for abandoning Roland and throwing that gun away.

I feel absolutely the same way. So so much.
Maybe after some rereadings in some years I will be able to. But right now it's impossible.

[obscurejude]

I know how you guys feel, and so do I, but the text is very clear in this regard:

"Each night in her dreams, at least once, she saw the Tower in that photograph standing at the end of its field of roses, sooty gray-black stone against a troubled sky where the clouds streamed out in for directions, along the tow Beams that still held. She knew what the voices sang- commala! commala! commala-come-come!- but she did not think that they sang to her, or for her. No, say no, say never in life; this was Roland's song and Roland's alone. But she had begun to hope that that didn't necessarily mean she was going to die between here and the end of her quest. She had been having her own dreams" (The Dark Tower, 706 Hardcover).

There are a few others as well, but I think this is the most explicit. We could say it was just her perception, but... I really don't think that's the case. We all knew Roland was going to approach the Tower alone.

[Letti]

I really don't think that's the case. We all knew Roland was going to approach the Tower alone.

And here is my answer.

A perfect ending (for me at least, a perfect ending)
by Letti

They all were there and they couldn't believe it. Death was always behind them it was sitting on their back laughing and they could feel its disturbing breath on their necks so many times. Still, they were all there.
Eddie was holding Susannah's hand but they couldn't look at each other. Their eyes got hooked on the Dark Tower and they felt they could stand there hand in hand forever.
Roland felt that he was trembling inside so hard he could hardly notice anything else but the Tower but then somehow he felt Jake thoughts... "I don't want to lose him. I don't want to lose my father... Gan... I should try not to cry."
Roland turned back and he looked at Jake. The boy who was old and so young at the same time was standing there with tears in his eyes. He couldn't hide them.
"You know" - started Roland with a big sigh - "I always felt I would get here alone. It was such a strong feeling that right now..."
"You don't know what to do." - finished Susannah.
"Exactly."
"But you must go, mustn't you?" - asked Jake with a really cold voice. With a real gunslinger voice. His hot tears were burning his eyes still his heart got cold. Jake hated the Tower with every cell of his true heart.
It hurt Roland.
He didn't answer. He couldn't.
He was sure Eddie would say something really funny soon but his ka-brother was just standing there like a perfect statue watching him with curious and sad eyes.
"You know..." - started Roland after a long hesitation - "It looks all right, doesn't it? I mean... It looks absolutely healthy..." but he couldn't finish his sentence because Jake ran there and hugged him so hard that he could hardly breathe.
Now Jake was crying.
They hugged each other for long minutes and Eddie and Susannah let them be alone a little bit.
Jake didn't want to ease his hand because he was afraid if he ever let Roland get out of his hands he would change his mind immediately. Roland knew it and felt it and he let the boy hug him as long as he needed it.
First time after thousands of years Roland didn't know where to go.
What to do.
Still, he felt incredibly free. He felt his heart could blow up anytime. But wouldn't it be a beautiful death?
It would.
It would indeed.

Yeah...
I am a dreamer. :rolleyes:

[Brainslinger]

In context (concerning Susannah throwing away the gun.)


I'm not sure I blame her for that, it was done.

Not to mention, she was very rapidly forgetting everything that happened to her, perhaps keeping it was impossible (talking about Gan and the Tower here.)

I thought it a bit of a shame that she threw away the gun concerning the history and all. However, I agree. Also, it seemed pretty clear that the revolver was now used up and useless. Gan even plugged it!

A lot of people really dislike that scene where Susannah met Eddie and Jake. They find it sappy and sentimental.

I loved it though. I found it magical and uplifting, as well as sad, but in a good way.

I dislike thinking of myself as sentimental... but I suppose I am. Someone please, shoot me in the head.

[The Lady of Shadows]

i loved her finding eddie and jake again. i kept waiting for oy (or oy's twinner) to coming trotting up to jake. but i can't get over her throwing away the gun. like it was a piece of trash. worthless, immaterial, meaningless. i couldn't believe that some part of her didn't recognize, on some level, that she should hold onto it. even if it was plugged. no matter what, she should've held onto the gun.

[obscurejude]

I think Susannah flipped. It explains why she dumped the gun... she was a different identity. The two Susannah's are are mutually exclusive in the same way as the new Eddie and Jake.

What do you think Monte?

[Ves'Ka Gan]

I think that methaphorically, I agree with you, jude. However I do not believe that there are 2 Susannahs. I think with her memories fading and the gun being plugged she became a different version of herself, but I don't think it's quite the same as Eddie & Jake.

[theBeamisHome]

I think she dumped the gun because she was losing her memory and thus her attachment to it... and it lost it's magic. she could see that it wouldn't work anymore. I think it's the same Susannah, but I think she was rewarded for her faithfulness AND her obedience to ka. She knew that Roland was supposed to reach the tower alone and she didn't fight that. She just found her way out.

[Matt]

What if Suze is looping now--on her own quest for "The Tower" and redemption she is returned to that very moment every time.

But one time...she keeps the gun

[obscurejude]

I think that methaphorically, I agree with you, jude. However I do not believe that there are 2 Susannahs. I think with her memories fading and the gun being plugged she became a different version of herself, but I don't think it's quite the same as Eddie & Jake.

You should check out Monte's thread on twinners.

[Letti]

Anyway I think to step to the other side of that door and to throw that gun have the same meaning. So I wasn't surprised that she got rid of it quickly.

[wildfire1290]

I still think she should have kept the gun, because even if her memory was fading, she must have known to always keep the gun with her, because she always had it with her, even when her memory was going? She would have remembered it wouldn't she?

[Pere Callahan]

This is a great thread..I hate that I wasn't here earlier.

I've said it in a few other places, but the point for me here is that Susannah is the only only member of the tet that gets it By this I mean that she is aware that Roland's true aim was to "question" whatever resided at the top of the tower. Saving the world was always secondary to him ( or so said Mia in their palavar in SOS) That is the most critical point here. I think she understood that if she continued a) she would surely die and b) the tower would surely reject Roland. She understood that the goal had already been accomplished, and that the rest was only foolish pride. I don't see the selfishness in that. Should she die just because her friends did? I don't see the rationality in that. Jake and Eddie's death came before the Tower was saved. This made their deaths necessary.
Perhaps if they had lived, she would have been able to convince them to leave with her (though i doubt jake would have....maybe eddie)

I used to hate susannah, but I now see her as the most enlightened of the ka-tets members. I love how she puts it all togehter.

[Jean]

This is a great thread..I hate that I wasn't here earlier.
it's all right, we have a whole life ahead!

and - although I don't give a fuck about what Mia says (she was a liar second only to Walter, and that in those cases where she wasn't herself genuinely mistaken), but to my mind, too, it follows of all the text that "saving the world" was at best secondary - more an excuse, I think, which Roland finally learned to take very seriously because he was taught from the very start to take seriosly whatever he was doing... and it fit his own character, too.

I still think that joining those she loved was more important for her than saving her own life, but the thought that she

understood that the goal had already been accomplished
is rather new to me, and I like it... it's another argument to be added to others I used to defend her decision

(if someone isn't tired of hearing it yet - Susannah is my favorite character in the DT, always keeping it in mind that Roland stands alone)

[jayson]

Interesting take on things Pere Callahan, and welcome to the site. I've read some of your other posts and I think you bring some valuable insights to the table.

I would however contend that the Tower was not yet saved after the Beam was made safe and Sai King's death avoided. There are other threads where this has come up, but here is a good enough place for me. Almost all DT-7 threads wind up coming around to this point sooner or later.

My contention is that with the CK on the balcony and Mordred on his way to the Tower, there is no guarantee that the Tower was safe. Had Roland cried off, Mordred would very likely have gone straight to the Tower and helped his Red Father get off the balcony and the two of them would have entered the Tower. Now, there is nothing but speculation as to what this might have meant for the Tower, but it is perfectly reasonable to speculate that this might not have been a positive development for the Tower.

I'm not even disagreeing with you necessarily that Susannah shouldn't have left when she did, but I don't believe Roland had saved the Tower prior to his killing of Mordred and his and Patrick's defeat of the CK.

Saving the Beam and Sai King may have delayed the demise of the Tower, but there is no telling what havoc could have been wreaked upon the arrival of Mordred and the CK at the front door.

[Pere Callahan]

R _ G_ -Those are great points regarding Mordred. I have to admit that i haven't given much consideration to his impact (or the Crimson King being trapped). Let me think about it for a while...
and thanks for the welcome ....so far I've been so busy trying to catch up on all the threads that I haven't posted much. I've been very impressed with your many ideas as I browse the site.
Jean- I've been reading your posts all over this site, and quite frankly, I am blown away with many of your theories. I don't always agree with you but the logic behind your ideas is always sound. You remind me very much of Euryon from the old dt.net site.

[jayson]

Take your time Pere Callahan. There are a lot of great threads around here to read.

Also, I agree with you completely, Jean's posts are among the most well thought out you will find.

[Wuducynn]

You better hurry up, Pere, because I'm going to be deleting all the great threads in an hour.

[Jackie]

I thought it was because of Eddie and Jake being representations of Roland's earlier ka-tet, that they should die in much of the same way. Didn't Cuthbert get shot in the eye, much like Eddie did?

I believe that Cuthbert got shot through the eye with an arrow.

[Jackie]

And i agree. Jake and eddie represented Rolands original Ka-tet. There were many refrences stating that in the book. So in that sence they were destened to die. Roland knew that. You can see through similarities [i.e. Eddie getting shot through the eye much like Cuthbert, who he was often refrenced to, was shot through the eye with an arrow.


[ How again did Alain die? I forget but i'm just wondering if theres any conections/similarites between his and Jakes deaths ]

[jayson]

[ How again did Alain die? I forget but i'm just wondering if theres any conections/similarites between his and Jakes deaths ]

Alain died... when Cuthbert and Roland mistakenly shot him.

[Jackie]

[ How again did Alain die? I forget but i'm just wondering if theres any conections/similarites between his and Jakes deaths ]

Alain died... when Cuthbert and Roland mistakenly shot him.

Ah, so i supose that really isn't in any way similar to Jakes death, unless some one wants to make connection that i haven't been able to.

[Adumbros]

why didn't susannah have to die...ponderous, ponderous inquisition. i would say...

because she herself was the Drawing of the Three. A physical embodiment of it. She was Susannah Dead, Odetta Holmes, and Detta Walker. And that may have played an extrememly significant part. After all, King likes to play games and keep secrets, say true? Perhaps she was what the title of TDT II referred to all along.

...and, she was literally drawn out of Roland's world.

[Adumbros]

the only problem i have with the theory of it being because jake and eddie were reminiscent of cuthbert and alain is this:

in arguing that scenario, you must advance the theory that she embodied a new Susan, right down to the name, including (albeit inadvertently) being R.'s lover. therefore, by THAT theory, she should have suffered the most horrible death of them all.

[Woofer]

This is a great thread..I hate that I wasn't here earlier.
it's all right, we have a whole life ahead!

and - although I don't give a fuck about what Mia says (she was a liar second only to Walter, and that in those cases where she wasn't herself genuinely mistaken), but to my mind, too, it follows of all the text that "saving the world" was at best secondary - more an excuse, I think, which Roland finally learned to take very seriously because he was taught from the very start to take seriosly whatever he was doing... and it fit his own character, too.

I still think that joining those she loved was more important for her than saving her own life, but the thought that she

understood that the goal had already been accomplished
is rather new to me, and I like it... it's another argument to be added to others I used to defend her decision

(if someone isn't tired of hearing it yet - Susannah is my favorite character in the DT, always keeping it in mind that Roland stands alone)

I like the idea that Susannah "gets it", but I don't think there's any evidence of that in the books. At least I can't think of any off the top of my head. Moreover, if she does, then why not try to save Roland from himself? Why take the only life preserver and leave him in a sinking boat? Wouldn't that make her less noble? Shouldn't she try to help? Shouldn't not helping damn her in some way? It sure doesn't seem to given what she finds when she finally rolls through that door.

[Pere Callahan]

"I like the idea that Susannah "gets it", but I don't think there's any evidence of that in the books. At least I can't think of any off the top of my head. Moreover, if she does, then why not try to save Roland from himself? Why take the only life preserver and leave him in a sinking boat? Wouldn't that make her less noble? Shouldn't she try to help? Shouldn't not helping damn her in some way? It sure doesn't seem to given what she finds when she finally rolls through that door.


I think she understands that Roland will never change his mind. Mia tells Susannah that Roland's only true aim is to question the "being" at the top of the tower. I think she makes a decision that you cannot argue with irrationality. Also, I get the idea that she thinks that Roland may deserve a bad ending. She loves him, yet of the ka-tet she seems to understand the most that Roland is beyond "saving". He will do as he feels he must, regardless of logic.

[Pere Callahan]

Also, regarding Mordred, the fact that he was already dying made him much less of a threat (despite Oy's tragic end) I don't think Roland ever thought Mordred would be the end of him. I think he was no match for Roland. As for the Crimson King, we are lead to believe that without Roland's gun, he can never enter the Tower. This is many ways makes Roland's decision to pursue the tower even more foolish. Better to have the CK trapped outside than to give him his ticket to the Tower

[jayson]

Also, regarding Mordred, the fact that he was already dying made him much less of a threat (despite Oy's tragic end) I don't think Roland ever thought Mordred would be the end of him. I think he was no match for Roland. As for the Crimson King, we are lead to believe that without Roland's gun, he can never enter the Tower. This is many ways makes Roland's decision to pursue the tower even more foolish. Better to have the CK trapped outside than to give him his ticket to the Tower

Well, Mordred was dying because he ate Dandelo's horse, which was tainted/poison. Had Roland cried off after Blue Heaven as some have suggested he should, Mordred wouldn't have had to eat the horse. He could have made a nice meal out of Dandelo himself and had Patrick for dessert. He then could have proceeded to the Tower without illness.

As for needing the guns to get in to the Tower, if I'm not mistaken, what was actually required was some sigul of the Eld. Walter seemed to believe Mordred's heel would have met this requirement as he planned on taking it and entering for himself with no apparent plans to take Roland's guns.

So I am still of the opinion that had not Roland proceeded to the Tower, Mordred would have gotten there and met his Red Daddy and that would very likely not be a good situation for the Tower.

[MonteGss]

I agree with the above, though I am in no position at the moment to expand on it.

[jayson]

I agree with the above, though I am in no position at the moment to expand on it.

No need to expand Monte. "I agree with R_of_G" is always an acceptable answer. :P

[Matt]

I am one of those but mostly because I believe the Tower (as Roland sees it) is for Roland alone.

For instance, what would you say happened to Patrick after the end? Did the world just continue to move on even though the Tower sent Roland back--was there a future for anyone after that?

[jayson]

I am one of those but mostly because I believe the Tower (as Roland sees it) is for Roland alone.

For instance, what would you say happened to Patrick after the end? Did the world just continue to move on even though the Tower sent Roland back--was there a future for anyone after that?

Yes, I believe time goes on for everybody else. I suppose part of this is because I don't believe the loops are the same every time. If they are the same, it would make more sense for time to "rewind" each time Roland reaches the Tower, but if they are not the same, there's no need to think time itself goes backwards.

[Jean]

Woofer: I can't produce any positive proof of Susannah understanding anything specific... I agreed with Pere mostly because I liked his idea; also on general principle - Susannah is so usually so much more perceptive and intelligent than the rest that when Pere said that it was like some important piece of the jigsaw puzzle fell into place for me

[Woofer]

"I like the idea that Susannah "gets it", but I don't think there's any evidence of that in the books. At least I can't think of any off the top of my head. Moreover, if she does, then why not try to save Roland from himself? Why take the only life preserver and leave him in a sinking boat? Wouldn't that make her less noble? Shouldn't she try to help? Shouldn't not helping damn her in some way? It sure doesn't seem to given what she finds when she finally rolls through that door.


I think she understands that Roland will never change his mind. Mia tells Susannah that Roland's only true aim is to question the "being" at the top of the tower. I think she makes a decision that you cannot argue with irrationality. Also, I get the idea that she thinks that Roland may deserve a bad ending. She loves him, yet of the ka-tet she seems to understand the most that Roland is beyond "saving". He will do as he feels he must, regardless of logic.

Hrm. I hadn't thought of it that way, but Susannah does seem to know a lost cause when she sees one. Odetta, now she would've kept after him no matter what.



Also, regarding Mordred, the fact that he was already dying made him much less of a threat (despite Oy's tragic end) I don't think Roland ever thought Mordred would be the end of him. I think he was no match for Roland. As for the Crimson King, we are lead to believe that without Roland's gun, he can never enter the Tower. This is many ways makes Roland's decision to pursue the tower even more foolish. Better to have the CK trapped outside than to give him his ticket to the Tower

Well, Mordred was dying because he ate Dandelo's horse, which was tainted/poison. Had Roland cried off after Blue Heaven as some have suggested he should, Mordred wouldn't have had to eat the horse. He could have made a nice meal out of Dandelo himself and had Patrick for dessert. He then could have proceeded to the Tower without illness.

As for needing the guns to get in to the Tower, if I'm not mistaken, what was actually required was some sigul of the Eld. Walter seemed to believe Mordred's heel would have met this requirement as he planned on taking it and entering for himself with no apparent plans to take Roland's guns.

So I am still of the opinion that had not Roland proceeded to the Tower, Mordred would have gotten there and met his Red Daddy and that would very likely not be a good situation for the Tower.

Agreed. It was a sign of the Eld, not specifically Roland's gun - well, if we take Walter's belief for it. Note that I don't say his word; Walter was a liar. However, he truly believed that a symbol of the Eld was sufficient. I think that Roland needed to stop Mordred somehow, but I think that he would be much closer to salvation had he been able to turn Mordred rather than kill him.


Woofer: I can't produce any positive proof of Susannah understanding anything specific... I agreed with Pere mostly because I liked his idea; also on general principle - Susannah is so usually so much more perceptive and intelligent than the rest that when Pere said that it was like some important piece of the jigsaw puzzle fell into place for me

I understand, Jean. I was just hoping that someone had some definite passages to which s/he could point to that illustrate the idea.

[Jackie]

I am one of those but mostly because I believe the Tower (as Roland sees it) is for Roland alone.

For instance, what would you say happened to Patrick after the end? Did the world just continue to move on even though the Tower sent Roland back--was there a future for anyone after that?

Yes i think tht everyone elses world just keeps going on. I think it's Roland who is doomed to keep going through the same cycle over and over again till he gets it 'right'. Also i believe that the inside of the tower is different for every. Just one reason Eddies, Susanah, Jake and Oy would have never been able to enter it together.

[Brainslinger]

Yes i think tht everyone elses world just keeps going on. I think it's Roland who is doomed to keep going through the same cycle over and over again till he gets it 'right'. Also i believe that the inside of the tower is different for every. Just one reason Eddies, Susanah, Jake and Oy would have never been able to enter it together.

Yeah. It fits also with what Roland said in one of his palavers (I believe it was WaG but it might have been The Waste Lands): "Even the past is in motion in my world, rearranging itself in new ways." (Not exact quote, but that was the gist.)

Ironic that he might be the cause of that 'rearranging.' But the others go on. I disagree with the notion that time resets when he goes through the door, he just goes back.


Odetta, now she would've kept after him no matter what.

I'm curious why this would be. If it's because she is less sensitive to people's nature (in this case Roland) than Susannah, then yes I think that might be true. If it's because she is more moral than Susannah, I don't think that comes into it. Odetta is a nice lady but she lacks the strength and tenacity of Detta and Susannah. In that sense she would be more likely to turn aside than Susannah.

However, I don't think Susannah turned aside because she was weak. I think it's partly because of what people have said, she knew Roland's nature. Partly because she knew that she was destined to die if she followed him to the Tower. This doesn't make her a coward, or heartless. She had put herself in danger on many occasions, even responsible -with the writer's help- for removing the last enemy before Mordred, namely Dandelo. But there is a difference with giving one's life for a good cause, and sacrificing oneself needlessly.

She sensed it was the end of the road for her. Even her dreams told her too, so she left. In short, she left because she was meant to leave, she knew her place in the story was over.

True Mordred was still a threat (and don't think he wasn't despite being sick. He came very close to taking Roland's life when Patrick was lulled asleep. Thankfully there was another undetected lookout willing to sacrifice his own small life.) But I think Susannah somehow knew that it just wasn't her ka (yes we get back to that again) to remove that particular threat. Why? The dreams. The Tower. Her special perception we've been speaking of.

[Woofer]

Yes i think tht everyone elses world just keeps going on. I think it's Roland who is doomed to keep going through the same cycle over and over again till he gets it 'right'. Also i believe that the inside of the tower is different for every. Just one reason Eddies, Susanah, Jake and Oy would have never been able to enter it together.

Yeah. It fits also with what Roland said in one of his palavers (I believe it was WaG but it might have been The Waste Lands): "Even the past is in motion in my world, rearranging itself in new ways." (Not exact quote, but that was the gist.)

Ironic that he might be the cause of that 'rearranging.' But the others go on. I disagree with the notion that time resets when he goes through the door, he just goes back.

I'm still undecided on the concept of time resetting only for Roland. Does the Tower put itself back in danger? What about the key players in Roland's life? Even if we consider his childhood friends, all the people he encounters on the way to the tower, and the three he draws (assuming that happens every time) to be interchangeable with others in time, what about those who are part of the prophecy, e.g. the Crimson King and Mordred? Or is that what you mean about his comment that the past is rearranging itself?



Odetta, now she would've kept after him no matter what.

I'm curious why this would be. If it's because she is less sensitive to people's nature (in this case Roland) than Susannah, then yes I think that might be true. If it's because she is more moral than Susannah, I don't think that comes into it. Odetta is a nice lady but she lacks the strength and tenacity of Detta and Susannah. In that sense she would be more likely to turn aside than Susannah.

However, I don't think Susannah turned aside because she was weak. I think it's partly because of what people have said, she knew Roland's nature. Partly because she knew that she was destined to die if she followed him to the Tower. This doesn't make her a coward, or heartless. She had put herself in danger on many occasions, even responsible -with the writer's help- for removing the last enemy before Mordred, namely Dandelo. But there is a difference with giving one's life for a good cause, and sacrificing oneself needlessly.

She sensed it was the end of the road for her. Even her dreams told her too, so she left. In short, she left because she was meant to leave, she knew her place in the story was over.

True Mordred was still a threat (and don't think he wasn't despite being sick. He came very close to taking Roland's life when Patrick was lulled asleep. Thankfully there was another undetected lookout willing to sacrifice his own small life.) But I think Susannah somehow knew that it just wasn't her ka (yes we get back to that again) to remove that particular threat. Why? The dreams. The Tower. Her special perception we've been speaking of.

I think Odetta would not have seen Roland as a lost cause. On the contrary, I think she would have seen him as a difficult, but very worthy, cause. Nor is it a matter of cowardice. I liken it to her participation in civil rights demonstrations in the 60s. She took part in those knowing that she might be hurt or even killed but it was worth those risks because the cause for which she fought was worth those risks.

[Tony_A]

The last line of Dark Tower clearly shows that time doesn't just reset for Roland. While things may progress differently in each loop, I believe it does for all others as well, but each retains a piece of what happened in the previous loops, which I believe explains why Eddie, Jake, and Susannah learn the ways of a gunslinger so quickly.

[Woofer]

*Points up to the many other responses in this thread that dispute this idea* Clearly not everyone believes it clearly shows that.

http://psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/grincolonp.gif

In all seriousness, that's the sort of thing I question. Is it the same man in black? Another? Does time reset for Roland + key people? That's exactly the reservations I was expressing in the post immediately above yours.

[jayson]

Exactly Woofer. It doesn't "clearly" show anything (which I think is the whole point). It shows only that Roland's quest has begun again in the desert and that he is once more chasing the man in black (whom we know to be at least semi-immortal). It doesn't clearly say anything about anything else. It's intentionally ambiguous.

[Matt]

That's what makes me think this whole thing is not about the end of the mulitverse at all, its really just about Roland.

Which means that the story itself is about personal obsession and salvation which is ok with me.

[Brainslinger]

I'm still undecided on the concept of time resetting only for Roland. Does the Tower put itself back in danger?

Only in the sense that if the beams were broken the Tower would certainly fall. However I think Roland and his ka-tet will always save the beams, and since the Tower/Gan knows that (existing in all times and space) it/he knows it/he is safe. If that makes sense?


What about the key players in Roland's life? Even if we consider his childhood friends, all the people he encounters on the way to the tower, and the three he draws (assuming that happens every time) to be interchangeable with others in time, what about those who are part of the prophecy, e.g. the Crimson King and Mordred? Or is that what you mean about his comment that the past is rearranging itself?

Interchangeable? Are you referring to different people being drawn each loop?
I'm personally of the opinion it will always be them that are drawn (or versions of them.) I remember Roland speculating that only death can break Ka-tet, and even then he wasn't certain. Hence I think they're always bound together.

The Crimson King existed before the point in which Roland loops. He's intrinsically bound to Roland in his own way, and as such he will always be The Enemy. Mordred was conceived within the loop, but I think he always will be too, considering the prophesy (which also happened before the loop.) I think all the main things that happen will always happen, but there is room for variance as far as personal choices concerning a person's own life is concerned. So each loop isn't exactly the same (i.e. Roland has the horn for one thing.) And each decision made will cause slight changes in the time-line. Hence my mention of the past rearranging itself. (I.e from the point of view of people in the future from that point. Like those palavering in topeka.)



I think Odetta would not have seen Roland as a lost cause. On the contrary, I think she would have seen him as a difficult, but very worthy, cause. Nor is it a matter of cowardice. I liken it to her participation in civil rights demonstrations in the 60s. She took part in those knowing that she might be hurt or even killed but it was worth those risks because the cause for which she fought was worth those risks.

I see what you mean. I think that part of Odetta was inherited by Susannah though, and if anything her harder Detta side (which isn't all negative remember) would have made her all the more likely to support Roland and his quest. If anything I think the moral Odetta would have lacked the steel to continue, and may not even have taken to Roland in the first place. For all her genuine sweetness, she was quite a self-righteous lady and would have disagreed* with Roland's single minded obsession with the Tower. The fact that the more rounded Susannah turned aside too, suggests she was meant to.



*'Disagreed isn't the word I was looking for. I'm having one of those 'word at the tip of your toungue moments. Except fingers in this case. Annoying thing is it's a common word, but I just can't think of it. When someone has a negative view of another's actions of or viewpoint.

[Gantoad]

Just a thought, mayhap these loops are not wound round and round, but lain side by side. What I mean is, different reality becomes the next keystone world(s.) It would also explain the lack of memory, and the changes with each loop.

Susannah is the Lady of 'Shadows,' it's a 'Dark' Tower.

[Woofer]

I'm still undecided on the concept of time resetting only for Roland. Does the Tower put itself back in danger?

Only in the sense that if the beams were broken the Tower would certainly fall. However I think Roland and his ka-tet will always save the beams, and since the Tower/Gan knows that (existing in all times and space) it/he knows it/he is safe. If that makes sense?

Yes, but in the loop that we read, the world is in the state it is in because the beams are breaking and the Tower is in danger. Roland talks with delah people on the way who have seen this and remark on it. They even experience a beamquake when another goes. Maybe they've not recovered from the previous loop, but that doesn't feel right to me.



What about the key players in Roland's life? Even if we consider his childhood friends, all the people he encounters on the way to the tower, and the three he draws (assuming that happens every time) to be interchangeable with others in time, what about those who are part of the prophecy, e.g. the Crimson King and Mordred? Or is that what you mean about his comment that the past is rearranging itself?

Interchangeable? Are you referring to different people being drawn each loop?
I'm personally of the opinion it will always be them that are drawn (or versions of them.) I remember Roland speculating that only death can break Ka-tet, and even then he wasn't certain. Hence I think they're always bound together.

The Crimson King existed before the point in which Roland loops. He's intrinsically bound to Roland in his own way, and as such he will always be The Enemy. Mordred was conceived within the loop, but I think he always will be too, considering the prophesy (which also happened before the loop.) I think all the main things that happen will always happen, but there is room for variance as far as personal choices concerning a person's own life is concerned. So each loop isn't exactly the same (i.e. Roland has the horn for one thing.) And each decision made will cause slight changes in the time-line. Hence my mention of the past rearranging itself. (I.e from the point of view of people in the future from that point. Like those palavering in topeka.)

I mean both the people Roland draws and the minor characters he meets along the way, e.g. Allie, Brown, Aunt Talitha, Gasher, et al. Presumably, from the way the story loops, he walks the same path to the Tower because he'll follow the signs of the beam once he reaches that point, so is Lud still destroyed? Blaine? How will he cross the Wastelands? Do those "things" reset but not the people? Does the Crimson King then go back to his castle? Is another, new Mordred conceived?

I'm honestly not trying to argue for the sake of it. These are aspects of the story concept that I ponder. A lot.



I think Odetta would not have seen Roland as a lost cause. On the contrary, I think she would have seen him as a difficult, but very worthy, cause. Nor is it a matter of cowardice. I liken it to her participation in civil rights demonstrations in the 60s. She took part in those knowing that she might be hurt or even killed but it was worth those risks because the cause for which she fought was worth those risks.

I see what you mean. I think that part of Odetta was inherited by Susannah though, and if anything her harder Detta side (which isn't all negative remember) would have made her all the more likely to support Roland and his quest. If anything I think the moral Odetta would have lacked the steel to continue, and may not even have taken to Roland in the first place. For all her genuine sweetness, she was quite a self-righteous lady and would have disagreed* with Roland's single minded obsession with the Tower. The fact that the more rounded Susannah turned aside too, suggests she was meant to.

When I said Odetta, I was thinking of Odetta with Detta still lurking in the background. But I like your ideas here.


*'Disagreed isn't the word I was looking for. I'm having one of those 'word at the tip of your toungue moments. Except fingers in this case. Annoying thing is it's a common word, but I just can't think of it. When someone has a negative view of another's actions of or viewpoint.

Heh heh heh. I hate when that happens! *comf*


Just a thought, mayhap these loops are not wound round and round, but lain side by side. What I mean is, different reality becomes the next keystone world(s.) It would also explain the lack of memory, and the changes with each loop.

Susannah is the Lady of 'Shadows,' it's a 'Dark' Tower.

Nice idea, but Roland says something like "Oh no, not again" at the end, which does seem to indicate that it is the same reality and not an alternate or adjacent one.

[Brainslinger]

Yes, but in the loop that we read, the world is in the state it is in because the beams are breaking and the Tower is in danger. Roland talks with delah people on the way who have seen this and remark on it. They even experience a beamquake when another goes. Maybe they've not recovered from the previous loop, but that doesn't feel right to me.

No the beams were fixed, and from that point on they become stronger and regenerate. Roland was sent back to before they were fixed. It's not a matter of them not recovering from the previous loop as I think the loop only applies to Roland.


I mean both the people Roland draws and the minor characters he meets along the way, e.g. Allie, Brown, Aunt Talitha, Gasher, et al. Presumably, from the way the story loops, he walks the same path to the Tower because he'll follow the signs of the beam once he reaches that point, so is Lud still destroyed? Blaine? How will he cross the Wastelands? Do those "things" reset but not the people?

i Believe all these things happen again yes. Or more specifically Roland is sent back, he meets everyone again for the first time from their point of view (and his too in the sense that he has forgotten the previous loops except for some subconscious inclinations.) 'Reset' suggest they all went back to, but I don't think that's the case... (we might be saying the same thing just a different way actually.) Think of a linear time-line, which the majority of people travel on from beginning to end. When Roland is sent back he intersects with their past lives. He's the only one resetting.


Does the Crimson King then go back to his castle? Is another, new Mordred conceived?

Not another Mordred, the same Mordred is conceived. As for the King, I'd say yes (although just to be confusing I think he might be simultaneously in the Tower prison too, due to the fact he darkles and tincts, and the Tower is in all space and all time. Hence when you're in the tower, you're also in all space and time... even after you've left or before you arrive. (yeah I'm not sure about that either....)


I'm honestly not trying to argue for the sake of it. These are aspects of the story concept that I ponder. A lot.

Nah that's ok. It's an interesting discussion.


When I said Odetta, I was thinking of Odetta with Detta still lurking in the background. But I like your ideas here.

Ok. Thanks.

[Woofer]

Ahhhh, I see. Very, very interesting. Thanks for the explanations, Brainslinger!

[Wuducynn]

Does the Crimson King then go back to his castle? Is another, new Mordred conceived? Not another Mordred, the same Mordred is conceived. As for the King, I'd say yes (although just to be confusing I think he might be simultaneously in the Tower prison too, due to the fact he darkles and tincts, and the Tower is in all space and all time. Hence when you're in the tower, you're also in all space and time... even after you've left or before you arrive. (yeah I'm not sure about that either....)


I agree with this, I think like Roland, the Crimson King is trapped in the loop and the Tower is his prison. One of the many reasons he's trying to destroy it. One of the things that makes him go mad is not being able to stop Roland and his ka-tet that he draws, in his never ending quest.

[wiccangdess13]

It would have made much more sense to me if Jake wasn't there. He's the only one that died in the "Keystone earth"...

I agree with this. Jake dies in the keystone world and they kept saying that was final. So he should be gone, though I hate that. If he was to live on any plain he would do everything to get back to Roland, it was what he was about through and through.

As for Suzannah, I will piss many off for saying this but I thought she was selfish and self rightous and she renounced the tower and in turn spit in Roland, Eddie, Jake and Oy's face by doing so. They all gave their lives for the tower and what it stood for as well as what Roland stood for. Roland understood and went on in their names. Suzannah knew she would die if she continued because she knew Roland had to breach the tower alone, it was his Ka. So she chose to abandon him and the idea. Just like she blamed him for everything whenever something bad happened.

[wiccangdess13]

Yes, but in the loop that we read, the world is in the state it is in because the beams are breaking and the Tower is in danger. Roland talks with delah people on the way who have seen this and remark on it. They even experience a beamquake when another goes. Maybe they've not recovered from the previous loop, but that doesn't feel right to me.

No the beams were fixed, and from that point on they become stronger and regenerate. Roland was sent back to before they were fixed. It's not a matter of them not recovering from the previous loop as I think the loop only applies to Roland.


I mean both the people Roland draws and the minor characters he meets along the way, e.g. Allie, Brown, Aunt Talitha, Gasher, et al. Presumably, from the way the story loops, he walks the same path to the Tower because he'll follow the signs of the beam once he reaches that point, so is Lud still destroyed? Blaine? How will he cross the Wastelands? Do those "things" reset but not the people?

i Believe all these things happen again yes. Or more specifically Roland is sent back, he meets everyone again for the first time from their point of view (and his too in the sense that he has forgotten the previous loops except for some subconscious inclinations.) 'Reset' suggest they all went back to, but I don't think that's the case... (we might be saying the same thing just a different way actually.) Think of a linear time-line, which the majority of people travel on from beginning to end. When Roland is sent back he intersects with their past lives. He's the only one resetting.


Does the Crimson King then go back to his castle? Is another, new Mordred conceived?

Not another Mordred, the same Mordred is conceived. As for the King, I'd say yes (although just to be confusing I think he might be simultaneously in the Tower prison too, due to the fact he darkles and tincts, and the Tower is in all space and all time. Hence when you're in the tower, you're also in all space and time... even after you've left or before you arrive. (yeah I'm not sure about that either....)


I'm honestly not trying to argue for the sake of it. These are aspects of the story concept that I ponder. A lot.

Nah that's ok. It's an interesting discussion.


When I said Odetta, I was thinking of Odetta with Detta still lurking in the background. But I like your ideas here.

Ok. Thanks.

Ok so here is my question on this...If Roland has learned this time, he has the horn of Eld now, and he does not sacrifice Jake in the mountains will Jake die or disappear when Roland goes through the 3rd door and stops Jack from pushing him? Or does he just let Jack push him and inturn never unite Detta and Odetta?

[Wuducynn]

It would also explain the lack of memory, and the changes with each loop.


It's interesting though because it seems Roland DOES retain memory from his loops. There are a couple of points where he thinks he's having deja vu when actually it's memories.

[Whitey Appleseed]

Here is my question... Eddie, Jake and Susannah all depart from the tale in DT-7. Though they all wind up in the same place [and presumably Oy will as well], why do you feel that Eddie & Jake needed to physically die in one world while Susannah was able to just ride the Ho-Fat Taxi through a door? I have my theories, but I am interested in hearing some of yours first.

Started a re-read of Book 7. On this read, I asked myself, why just Roland? I guess some version of what happens with Roland happens with the other characters. I think I started thinking, Why just Roland? before reading SOS and Susannah's moments with Mia on the allure.

But the first time with Mia, that section read like Roland's time with Walter, Book 1. So could it be that Susannah has a version of Roland's Tower? Early in Book 7, Nigel is walking with her in his arms and she's feeling a little sorry for him...he says his days of service are nearly over, then he says O Discordia! She starts remembering things..."had it been a dream? a vision? a glimpse of her Tower?--something from her time with Mia."

Or has she already "recycled"? Bad pun, if it is at all. When Mia took Susannah to the Doorway Cave, she rode on some kind of ATV, something with big tires. Don't recall exactly what the Ho-Fat taxi is, some kind of motorized chair, I guess, but seems like a kind of doubling from earlier, after the battle with the wolves.

Or is that bit about "her Tower" a mind trap?

[Matt]

Eddie and Jake are from a different level of the Tower when Suze joins them in the end. They are not the same Eddie and Jake (they are brothers, for instance) as the two that died on the path of the beam.

[The King of Kings]

Sorry, but wouldn't there already be a "that words copy" of Sussanah that already existed?

[jayson]

Sorry, but wouldn't there already be a "that words copy" of Sussanah that already existed?

Maybe she died when the brick hit her in the head as a kid, or when the train hit her as an adult.

If every level of the Tower represents the infinite possibilities, there must be a world where Odetta didn't survive one of those experiences. Maybe this one is it.

[Letti]

Sorry, but wouldn't there already be a "that words copy" of Sussanah that already existed?

Maybe she died when the brick hit her in the head as a kid, or when the train hit her as an adult.

If every level of the Tower represents the infinite possibilities, there must be a world where Odetta didn't survive one of those experiences. Maybe this one is it.

Or maybe she has never been born at all because her great-great-grandmother died early and she never had children.