Randall Flagg - discussion of the character and his many guises

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

Flagg was not useless in the series. What I am explaining below is from the revised novels. Spoilers.

1.) He is the first character introduced in the series. He is the reason the Gunslinger is charging across the desert.

2.) He leads Roland and Jake along their journey.

3.) Flagg reminds Roland of his mission, and sends him off to draw his three.

4.) Flagg entices Roland's mother to betray Gilied. He also plays a big part in the comics, constantly hounding after Roland.

5.) Flagg is the one who is behind the demonic creation Mordred Deschain.

6.) Flagg had to be replaced because he was an old character and his evil was not as powerful or sinister, or tragic as that of Mordred. So he was eaten, and good riddance. Tell God thank ya.

[haunted.lunchbox]

It's been a while since I've read the series, but I will give you my take.

I think he was needed because he shows just how powerful the people in these books are. You read the Stand and you see this incredibly powerful antagonist, and than you read the DT and find that he is actually one of the 'smaller' potatoes. That's what he did for me anyways. I guess he wasn't terribly small, but there were just so many menaces.

[CyberGhostface]

Flagg was not useless in the series. What I am explaining below is from the revised novels. Spoilers.

1.) He is the first character introduced in the series. He is the reason the Gunslinger is charging across the desert.

2.) He leads Roland and Jake along their journey.

3.) Flagg reminds Roland of his mission, and sends him off to draw his three.

4.) Flagg entices Roland's mother to betray Gilied. He also plays a big part in the comics, constantly hounding after Roland.

This was all Marten/Walter before Flagg was introduced into the series. Again, I am *not* referring to the characters that were absorbed into Flagg at a later point. I am referring to the character of Flagg that showed up at the end of III, popped up in for one scene in IV, took a sabbatical from V to VI and then was eaten. Had Flagg not been introduced, Walter and Marten woud have still fulfilled their respective roles in the first novel.


6.) Flagg had to be replaced because he was an old character and his evil was not as powerful or sinister, or tragic as that of Mordred. So he was eaten, and good riddance. Tell God thank ya.

Mordred was a crap character, one of the worst in King's canon. He was a poor replacement for Flagg.

[Seneschal]

This was all Marten/Walter before Flagg was introduced into the series. Again, I am *not* referring to the characters that were absorbed into Flagg at a later point. I am referring to the character of Flagg that showed up at the end of III, popped up in for one scene in IV, took a sabbatical from V to VI and then was eaten. Had Flagg not been introduced, Walter and Marten woud have still fulfilled their respective roles in the first novel.


but they *were* absorbed, it's now a fact of the DT universe as if they were never written any other way.

i completely understand your point when taking the character as in the original writing, and your points are very well made about the originally written Flagg character as he pertains to DT.

however...

in that light, do you not agree that a big part of the reason King absorbed him into the other two characters was to punctuate his importance? Of course he knew he could just write the character out. Stephen King has never been known to back down to the "typical" rules of writing (ie, don't write yourself into a story). He is apt to just change the rules in his books on a whim, we see it all the time in all his stories, not just DT. it's his style. so in his revision, he could have merely erased Flagg completely with relative ease and been done with it. instead he thought that giving him a much deeper and older evil embodiment was the better way to go. not only does it complete our story, but it adds dimensions to the character in the other stories (like Stand and Eyes of the Dragon). and since this is what the author did, should it not be taken to mean that Flagg, ultimately, IS important no matter how you look at it and that we must view him as the complete character he has been revealed to be?

we can't rewrite the story, only King can. and he did rewrite it. and he did it with purpose (why revise at all if it wasn't important?). i suppose ultimately what i am saying is that you can no longer "take flagg as flagg". The author has explicitly said Flagg is Walter is Marten. As the reader, this is what we must believe to make the story complete.

I suppose this is where a conversation about purism in the fiction itself would start.

[pathoftheturtle]

We can't rewrite the books; we can only stop buying them. Maybe invest in an author we decide we like more. In any case, it's silly to suggest that there's no point in critical thinking by readers.

re: TMIB -- It seems to be a law of the internet that most contributors to any thread will be replying only to that thread's title, and only if the title is not too long or complicated. <_<

[Seneschal]

We can't rewrite the books; we can only stop buying them. Maybe invest in an author we decide we like more. In any case, it's silly to suggest that there's no point in critical thinking by readers.


if that was in response to my post, i don't recall suggesting people should not be critically thinking. i responded to the question at hand with my own thoughts.

[pathoftheturtle]

We can't rewrite the books; we can only stop buying them. Maybe invest in an author we decide we like more. In any case, it's silly to suggest that there's no point in critical thinking by readers.


if that was in response to my post, i don't recall suggesting people should not be critically thinking. i responded to the question at hand with my own thoughts.That's fine; no offense meant. I'm just saying, in reply to --
...since this is what the author did, should it not be taken to mean that Flagg, ultimately, IS important no matter how you look at it and that we must view him as the complete character he has been revealed to be?
...We can try to do that, but if someone is still not satisfied, he may just conclude that the writing is not all that good. That's a perfectly reasonable position.

[HellBeast]

If we go along with the idea that the Dark Tower is the underlying aspect to the majority of King's work, and taking into account that Flagg was such a big King character from Eyes of the Dragon and moreso The Stand, then yeah he was necessary. King fans, not just DT fans, can see Flagg's involvement in the story and his demise as being necessary to give an end to the character. In terms of the plot, Flagg being involved could be a scheme by Walter/Marten/Flagg to screw with Roland's head even more, make him think that there were more people against him than there actually was.

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

Mordred was a crap character, one of the worst in King's canon. He was a poor replacement for Flagg.

I can't agree with you on this. Mordred was a character of much more depth and complexity than Flagg, which is why King had no problem turning Flagg into a pathetic fool in a pool of gore.

Mordred was a conflicting tragic character. His demise was that of his own choice. He could have killed any of the gunslingers earlier on, even though people were taking watch. I believe Mordred could have tried to kill them at any time, but something in him, maybe the fact that Roland was his father, stopped him from going through with it. Inside he knew he couldn't do it. So in the end, I believe Mordred wasn't fallowing Roland to stalk and kill him, but to make sure Roland got to the tower safely (all things serve the Tower). In the end, Mordred rushed Roland, part due to his state of bad health, but also because he knew Roland was close enough he didn't need anyone to watch him anymore; Mordred had served his purpose.

Mordred was quite sickly and terrifying. I think fans of Flagg don't appriciate Mordred as a character because he turned Walter O'Dim into Walter O'Dark.
Even in the book Flagg admits he was fooled by Mordred because he only took the creature for his looks rather than what he was, or what he represented. It seems just as quickly as some characters make mistakes, readers will pass it by and not learn from it...

[CyberGhostface]

Mordred was a character of much more depth and complexity than Flagg, which is why King had no problem turning Flagg into a pathetic fool in a pool of gore.

Flagg's death was pretty embarrassing, but nothing says "pathetic fool" like Mordred suffering massive bouts of diarrhea after he ate the rotten horse. After all, Flagg started out as a simple farmboy and lasted for millennia, whereas Mordred started out as the son of the Crimson King and he lasted, what, a couple of months?

Mordred was written with all the subtlety of a hammer to the kneecaps to the point that King broke the fourth wall to tell the reader to feel bad for him. Thanks King, but I don't need you telling me what to feel when I read your books.

[fernandito]

I'm sorry but, in what way , shape , or form is Mordred a more in depth character than Flagg ? Flagg is one of King's most iconic villains, with an extensive history that spans and has been touched upon in several pieces of work (Eyes of the Dragon, The Stand, The Sorcerer one-shot, the comics, The Dark Tower itself etc.).

When I think of Flagg, I think of the copious amounts of trouble he's caused, the misery he's put several key figures through, the worlds hes traversed, his elusiveness and his enigmatic persona. When I think of Mordred I think of a character that was introduced at the eleventh hour and did little more than garner diarrhea from eating a horse. It's unfitting and a shame that Flagg should meet his end at the hands of such a cookie-cutter character.

[Brainslinger]

I'm sorry but, in what way , shape , or form is Mordred a more in depth character than Flagg ? Flagg is one of King's most iconic villains, with an extensive history that spans and has been touched upon in several pieces of work (Eyes of the Dragon, The Stand, The Sorcerer one-shot, the comics, The Dark Tower itself etc.).


I agree that Flagg is one of King's most iconic villains, possibly even the most iconic villain. The character of It being a possible exception.

However, I don't think he is particularly deep. He puts on faces for particular occasions. Shifts his forms for various agenda, but I think he is ultimately shallow and empty inside, hence his ability to put on personalities with his forms because inside there's not a whole lot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he is capable of more complex human feelings. He showed affection of a kind for certain characters in The Stand, and I loved the flash-back scene with Callahan in Wolves of the Calla where he actually seems hurt by Callahan's accusations (and it's a shame they didn't develop that further) but I think he is ultimately a very shallow selfish character with delusions of grandeur.

That's not to say he isn't a great villain though. In fact he is a great villain partly for this reason.

On the other hand I think Mordred is certainly a more complex character, although part of that might be simply due to the fact we see more of his thought life. That's not to say he isn't pathetic as well, but 'pathetic' and 'complex' are not contradictory. And being pathetic didn't mean he wasn't dangerous. He came the closest to killing Roland after all.

I also felt rather sorry for him without King telling me to.

I'm not using this as an argument to state Mordred should have replaced Walter (at least not when he did). I'm of the belief Walter should have survived to the end and taken the Dandelo role. (A great sequence I thought, but it was so very much a Flaggesque type trap. Why bring in a new villain out of nowhere when we have a suitable one already? Okay Flagg isn't an emotion eater so I'm not sure what his reasoning for bringing Patrick would be, but I'm sure King could have come up with something. Maybe he was aware of Paddy's power and thought he'd use him in some way...)

Maybe Mordred could have killed him after that while he was in a weakened state (we know Roland's guns alone wouldn't be enough, he seems to be able to counteract them, but I'm sure Roland and Suze could hurt him another way). Maybe Mordred's subsequent sickness could have been a last trick induced by Walt....

But anyway, much as I'm disappointed by Walter/Flagg's early demise, I think Mordred was the more complex character, but I hated how easily and quickly he dealt with Walter.

As for the thread question, I'll admit I'm not sure the persona of Flagg (untied from the others) really needed to be in the books as far as his role in the plot was concerned. His earlier attempt to trap the ka-tet with the Tick-tock man didn't amount to much in the end and if anything confused the issue. (If he was partly responsible for instigating Mordred's conception, why-oh-why risk that? I know he ultimately has his own agenda and will betray the King but you'd have thought he'd try something a bit more low key that hides his involvement.)

I'm glad he was there though.

[Jean]

I agree that Flagg is one of King's most iconic villains, possibly even the most iconic villain. The character of It being a possible exception.

However, I don't think he is particularly deep. He puts on faces for particular occasions. Shifts his forms for various agenda, but I think he is ultimately shallow and empty inside, hence his ability to put on personalities with his forms because inside there's not a whole lot.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he is capable of more complex human feelings. He showed affection of a kind for certain characters in The Stand, and I loved the flash-back scene with Callahan in Wolves of the Calla where he actually seems hurt by Callahan's accusations (and it's a shame they didn't develop that further) but I think he is ultimately a very shallow selfish character with delusions of grandeur.

That's not to say he isn't a great villain though. In fact he is a great villain partly for this reason. I couldn't agree more with all of the above.

[HellBeast]

I think that King had Mordred finish Flagg to show the might and power of his character, the diarrhoea elements to show that he was however in the body of a child. If you look at how he kills Flagg, with his mental psychic abilities, and contrast that with the fact he gets diarrhoea, I think this shows that Mordred has even greater potential to be such an indomitable force. However, a big contributing factor to his demise at the hands of Roland is his sickness and weakness. I've gotta say, if Mordred was in better health, and maybe more developed, Roland wouldn't have stood a chance.

In some ways to be honest, I feel as though Mordred, after being given the 'push' (to use pro wrestling terminology) of being the end to the master-villain Flagg/Walter/Marten, was deserving of at least another novel detailing his growth as a character and his deeds, but maybe King thought Roland had to deal with Mordred before he got to the Tower, else Roland would appear a coward having not confronted him.

In terms who's a more complex character, we know very little of the background of Flagg, other than from the Sorceror comic and little comments here and there through out Eyes of the Dragon and the DT series, whereas we witness everything of Mordred's life, from conception. through birth and life and ultimately death, so we're given far more of Mordred's character. We see what he does, but more importantly we are given WHY he does these things. However, with Flagg, all we ever get is at most speculation as to his motives. Also, considering the vast landscape of his deeds and doings, and the absence of his motivation, I have to say that Flagg is a more complex character because we as readers have to speculate as to why he does the things he does. Not to say Mordred isn't complex, but I just think there's far more to Flagg, which you can't argue with when you consider how long he's lived and what he's done compared to Mordred.




EDIT: though another theory I've often had about Flagg is that he does the things he does simply because he is pure, base, inherent evil, regardless of character. So what I'm saying here is that this post was irrelevant lol.

[haunted.lunchbox]

I think that King had Mordred finish Flagg to show the might and power of his character, the diarrhoea elements to show that he was however in the body of a child. If you look at how he kills Flagg, with his mental psychic abilities, and contrast that with the fact he gets diarrhoea, I think this shows that Mordred has even greater potential to be such an indomitable force. However, a big contributing factor to his demise at the hands of Roland is his sickness and weakness. I've gotta say, if Mordred was in better health, and maybe more developed, Roland wouldn't have stood a chance.

In some ways to be honest, I feel as though Mordred, after being given the 'push' (to use pro wrestling terminology) of being the end to the master-villain Flagg/Walter/Marten, was deserving of at least another novel detailing his growth as a character and his deeds, but maybe King thought Roland had to deal with Mordred before he got to the Tower, else Roland would appear a coward having not confronted him.

In terms who's a more complex character, we know very little of the background of Flagg, other than from the Sorceror comic and little comments here and there through out Eyes of the Dragon and the DT series, whereas we witness everything of Mordred's life, from conception. through birth and life and ultimately death, so we're given far more of Mordred's character. We see what he does, but more importantly we are given WHY he does these things. However, with Flagg, all we ever get is at most speculation as to his motives. Also, considering the vast landscape of his deeds and doings, and the absence of his motivation, I have to say that Flagg is a more complex character because we as readers have to speculate as to why he does the things he does. Not to say Mordred isn't complex, but I just think there's far more to Flagg, which you can't argue with when you consider how long he's lived and what he's done compared to Mordred.

I agree Flagg's death was a way to show Mordred's power. What better way to show it than him taking out such an iconic character.:shoot:

[pathoftheturtle]

I've never agreed with that theory, but I've also never heard it applauded like you guys are doing. If SK was thinking that, then I believe he should have found a less shallow and manipulative way to plot his novels. That one is DEFINITELY unsubtle.

On the other hand, I kind of like the idea of Flagg getting poetic justice in his plans to create Mordred and use him. Unfortunately, that didn't come across so well, either.
EDIT: though another theory I've often had about Flagg is that he does the things he does simply because he is pure, base, inherent evil, regardless of character. So what I'm saying here is that this post was irrelevant lol.What? No, I thnk there is some truth to this--
Also, considering the vast landscape of his deeds and doings, and the absence of his motivation, I have to say that Flagg is a more complex character because we as readers have to speculate as to why he does the things he does. ...Sometimes less is more.
But, yes, he never was the most convincing, well-crafted character, especially as portrayed in the DT series. Mostly, he set up these convoluted plots which ultimately only benefited his adversaries.Heh-heh-heh... I'll show you, gunslinger! Here's the key you'll need to open a door back to the world you couldn't accomplish anything without being able to reach! The door can be found over there... I'll record instructions for you! Also, here's a loyal priest I've saved from death! Take that! :evil:
Still, I don't think Mordred was ever really well-written, either. I can't agree with this, though:
...a character that was introduced at the eleventh hour...Let's remember that first foreshadowing way back in the original DT1. It's not that he was not vital to the series... just maybe not ultimately handled too well.

[HellBeast]

Puck: I merely meant to pose another argument, I guess you can argue both of the ways I suggest. I definitely agree with what you say about Less being more.

I never like to put an argument forward without considering alternatives, so my posts here will probably look very chaotic lol

EDIT: Can I ask, Puck, what was the 'first foreshadowing' of Mordred in the original DT1 you mention?

[pathoftheturtle]

I never like to put an argument forward without considering alternatives, so my posts here will probably look very chaotic lol

lol, well, then, here's a new avatar for you: http://muppet.wikia.com/wiki/Wembley_Fraggle.
EDIT: Can I ask, Puck, what was the 'first foreshadowing' of Mordred in the original DT1 you mention?The Oracle. You know, the price of prophecy. The boy Jake. It's the main structure in the series.

[haunted.lunchbox]

[EDIT: Can I ask, Puck, what was the 'first foreshadowing' of Mordred in the original DT1 you mention?The Oracle. You know, the price of prophecy. The boy Jake. It's the main structure in the series.[/QUOTE]

Please elaborate? Do you mean Jake is the main structure of the series, or Mordred. I often need things spelled out due to my aversion to simple logic.

[HellBeast]

I've never read the original, only the revised edition, I thought you meant an explicit reference to Mordred. Heck, there could be an explicit reference in the revised edition but I can't think of it lol shouldn't be on this site if that's the case...

I like the avatar idea haha think I might have to use it lol

[pathoftheturtle]

Roland has sex with the Oracle, who tells him that he'll have to let Jake die. Susannah has sex with the same creature later to bring Jake back to Mid-World. This is Mordred's parentage. All very symbolic.

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

Some of you are understanding Flagg and some of you aren't. Flagg helped bring down the Gunslingers, he created hell on earth in The Stand, and he was very scary and imposing in Eyes of the Dragon.

Mordred was the son of quite possibly the most notorious killer to ever exist (Roland Deschain) and the Crimson King.

Flagg doesn't have as much development as Mordred does, this is why I say that Mordred was a more complex character. I am not talking about all the destruction Mordred caused, but what he is. Even Flagg made the same mistake you guys are making; he took Mordred for what he looked like, not what he WAS!

My point is, although Mordred wasn't around as long as Flagg, nor did he cause as much destruction, he was more evil, and yet somehow able to be a tragic and gain sympathy from many readers.

Flagg is not as complex as Mordred, and Mordred to me was very diobolical in how he killed Flagg, which he no doubt deserved. Honestly, do you think Flagg was going to go on forever? He died in the end because he was too full of himself and not paying attention. He needed to die eventually.

[haunted.lunchbox]

Roland has sex with the Oracle, who tells him that he'll have to let Jake die. Susannah has sex with the same creature later to bring Jake back to Mid-World. This is Mordred's parentage. All very symbolic.

I knew about all the sex... for research purposes I always reread these scenes several time, only for research of course... I didn't see the foreshadow. Do you think said oracle was completely truthful, or do you think he manipulated Roland? Obviously it was after the good stuff.

[haunted.lunchbox]

... and he was very scary and imposing in Eyes of the Dragon.

Possibly my favorite quote on this site.

[HellBeast]

Thanks for clearing that up Puck :thumbsup:

19eye-rosecrow-gun I can see where you're coming from there, and I'm going to elaborate on a point I made in a previous post. When I said that because we know so little of Flagg's motivation, this adds to his character and his evil, I'd like to make the suggestion that because we know so little of Mordred's potential that adds to his own character and evil. If Mordred had attacked Roland when more physically healthy, there's no knowing what he could achieve.

I've gotta say I'm really torn on this Flagg vs Mordred thing now, I like alot of what people are saying on both sides. Both are fantastic villains, and I feel pretty cheated by SK that we don't get to see more of Mordred in all honesty.


An extra point: I think what's getting confused here is Being vs Character. Mordred is a more complex being/entity than Flagg, but in terms of the techniques SK has crafted them, Flagg is more complex, purely from a technical aspect.

[pathoftheturtle]

The author gave Mordred a good background, but that's no substitute for characterization. You can tell me and tell me that the guy I'll meet next will be one complex badass, but, even if he walks in wearing a t-shirt with COMPLEX written on it and carrying a badass birth certificate, if what he IS is is a simpleton or a two-dimensional cut-out, I'll be able understand that fact just fine, thanks very much.

Do you think said oracle was completely truthful, or do you think he manipulated Roland? Obviously it was after the good stuff.Well,come on, the oracle decided to save the sperm.
Just in case? lol

[LadyHitchhiker]

See, what I don't understand is how Flagg survived a NUKE in the Stand, but was so easily dispatched in the books. Can anyone explain this?

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

See, what I don't understand is how Flagg survived a NUKE in the Stand, but was so easily dispatched in the books. Can anyone explain this?

I believe Mordred is more complex than Flagg because we get to experience his thoughts and emotions, and Flagg doesn't seem to have much of this in the previous books; we are only told about parts of his past.

As for Flagg surviving the nuke, I always used to think the Devil himself came and swept Flagg from the nuke site. It states clearly in the book that he disappears before the bomb goes off. Flagg died at the hands of Mordred because unlike the nuke, Mordred was not an inanimate object Flagg could just run away from.

[pathoftheturtle]

See, what I don't understand is how Flagg survived a NUKE in the Stand, but was so easily dispatched in the books. Can anyone explain this?Ka.

[a fan]

if you remove flagg you remove all of flagg not just that one aliis and to do so would detract form the story on a monumentle level

leving that aside flagg as flagg gave great insite to roland and his past and link this book to meny others

[a fan]

See, what I don't understand is how Flagg survived a NUKE in the Stand, but was so easily dispatched in the books. Can anyone explain this?Ka.

mordor was abel to distory flagg because he was far more powerful than him a nuke is nothing compared to the might of flagg but mordor makkes flagg look weak also flagg new the bomb would go off befor it did but was given no worning with mordor

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

See, what I don't understand is how Flagg survived a NUKE in the Stand, but was so easily dispatched in the books. Can anyone explain this?Ka.

mordor was abel to distory flagg because he was far more powerful than him a nuke is nothing compared to the might of flagg but mordor makkes flagg look weak also flagg new the bomb would go off befor it did but was given no worning with mordor

Its Mordred. Think MORE DREAD. Also, a nuke is pretty damn powerful. You better bet if Flagg died of blood draining, then incineration of a nuke would destroy him.

Look people, although Flagg is very entertaining and we like him as a villain, he really isn't that powerful of a character. Your all over-rating him.

[a fan]

flagg was proably the most powerfull thing next to the darktower before Mordred. and it hard to compet with the son of both roland and the crimzen king.

sorry about the spelling mistakes

[a fan]

Some of you are understanding Flagg and some of you aren't. Flagg helped bring down the Gunslingers, he created hell on earth in The Stand, and he was very scary and imposing in Eyes of the Dragon.

Mordred was the son of quite possibly the most notorious killer to ever exist (Roland Deschain) and the Crimson King.

Flagg doesn't have as much development as Mordred does, this is why I say that Mordred was a more complex character. I am not talking about all the destruction Mordred caused, but what he is. Even Flagg made the same mistake you guys are making; he took Mordred for what he looked like, not what he WAS!

My point is, although Mordred wasn't around as long as Flagg, nor did he cause as much destruction, he was more evil, and yet somehow able to be a tragic and gain sympathy from many readers.

Flagg is not as complex as Mordred, and Mordred to me was very diobolical in how he killed Flagg, which he no doubt deserved. Honestly, do you think Flagg was going to go on forever? He died in the end because he was too full of himself and not paying attention. He needed to die eventually.

i think you under estamate flagg at a stagering level the depth of his caricter is far reaching into ever world king creates

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

i think you under estamate flagg at a stagering level the depth of his caricter is far reaching into ever world king creates


Flagg is not in every Stephen King book, and I stick to my guns when I say Flagg was not that powerful. He was probably at his most powerful in Eyes of the Dragon. Flagg was the great antagonist during the story. If you look at The Stand, Flagg got his power from a higher evil: The Devil, (or if you include Dark Tower mythos, the Crimson King). Flagg wasn't in control of anything in The Stand because he could only convince people to let themselves be manipulated by him, but he never had complete control of anyone. He was basically a puppet for the Crimson King in The Stand. He wasn't even allowed to remember who he was completely. Eventually his plans fell apart and he lost.

[CyberGhostface]

Which villain WASN'T a bumhug of some sort at the end of the series?

The Crimson King was a senile old man throwing Harry Potter weapons, and Mordred nearly died from crapping himself.

[Tik]

See, what I don't understand is how Flagg survived a NUKE in the Stand, but was so easily dispatched in the books. Can anyone explain this?
It's basically because Flaggs defenses were taken down. I can think of only two characters of Kings that could do so and these were the Crimson King and Mordred. Even Pennywise cant do it.

Basically, if a nuke or a magic arrow or some other beastie came at Flagg he'd either take it out (via his magic for example) or vanish into thin air. Mordred was able to prevent these options by basically being in control of Flagg. For example, Flagg cant vanish because (using the imagary of the Dogan) Mordred switched that ability off. Flagg cant regenerate his lost eyes because Mordred has switched that ability off. None of Flaggs demonic abilities are of use in that scenario.

Thats not to say Flagg isn't powerful - he blatently is from what we see him do in the stories. It's just that ka brought him face to face with something very very powerful. Mordred is a demigod remember, even old one tech coupled with innate magical defenses couldn't keep Mordred out of Flaggs head.

[LadyHitchhiker]

It's been a while since I've read the series, but I will give you my take.

I think he was needed because he shows just how powerful the people in these books are. You read the Stand and you see this incredibly powerful antagonist, and than you read the DT and find that he is actually one of the 'smaller' potatoes. That's what he did for me anyways. I guess he wasn't terribly small, but there were just so many menaces.

Very nicely written, thought-provoking and illuminating. :couple:

[pathoftheturtle]

... It's just that ka brought him face to face with something very very powerful. ...And part of that was his own decisions. It's just surprising that he lived for so many centuries without developing better judgement. In the end, he assumed that his enemies could not face Black 13, and yet overestimated his own chance at managing this new monster.

[a fan]

i think you under estamate flagg at a stagering level the depth of his caricter is far reaching into ever world king creates


Flagg is not in every Stephen King book, and I stick to my guns when I say Flagg was not that powerful. He was probably at his most powerful in Eyes of the Dragon. Flagg was the great antagonist during the story. If you look at The Stand, Flagg got his power from a higher evil: The Devil, (or if you include Dark Tower mythos, the Crimson King). Flagg wasn't in control of anything in The Stand because he could only convince people to let themselves be manipulated by him, but he never had complete control of anyone. He was basically a puppet for the Crimson King in The Stand. He wasn't even allowed to remember who he was completely. Eventually his plans fell apart and he lost.

im crently reading the stand so i cant speack for that, but he is no pupet from all ive read i thank flagg uses the crimsen king to aceve his one ends

[a fan]

Thanks for clearing that up Puck :thumbsup:

19eye-rosecrow-gun I can see where you're coming from there, and I'm going to elaborate on a point I made in a previous post. When I said that because we know so little of Flagg's motivation, this adds to his character and his evil, I'd like to make the suggestion that because we know so little of Mordred's potential that adds to his own character and evil. If Mordred had attacked Roland when more physically healthy, there's no knowing what he could achieve.

I've gotta say I'm really torn on this Flagg vs Mordred thing now, I like alot of what people are saying on both sides. Both are fantastic villains, and I feel pretty cheated by SK that we don't get to see more of Mordred in all honesty.


An extra point: I think what's getting confused here is Being vs Character. Mordred is a more complex being/entity than Flagg, but in terms of the techniques SK has crafted them, Flagg is more complex, purely from a technical aspect.

on the roland vs mordead healthy i think mordead was to young and with no traning could not beat roland in a fair fight but had the potential to do beat roland but deep down he wanted to be in the ka-tet not destroy it like had he been given a chance. also i feel bad for mordead

[LadyHitchhiker]

I'm intrigued. Where do you get the idea that he wanted to be a part of the ka-tet?

[a fan]

mordead was never part of the tet but he wanted to be more than any thing and if you cant join them kill them and if you mean flagg he wasnt exactly a part he was the greates opisition when he died rolands quest became alot ezeyer.

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

Its true that Mordred wanted to be a part of a Ka-tet, but he knew he could never be, because part of him would always try to destroy Roland. One home was with the Prim, the other half of him was with Roland. It was unfair for him.

I just remembered something inside an issue of TDT graphic series, where it says Flagg's father was Merlin, and mother was the goddess of the moon and night, but I am not sure if I am correct. In this case, wouldn't that make Flagg a Demi-God (probably not as powerful as Mordred)?

[pathoftheturtle]

I sense an argument over canon coming...

That really confuses this topic even further. Why should Mordred be more powerful than RF in that case? Isn't the Maerlyn of the comics more powerful than the Crimson King?

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

I sense an argument over canon coming...

That really confuses this topic even further. Why should Mordred be more powerful than RF in that case? Isn't the Maerlyn of the comics more powerful than the Crimson King?

I don't remember it ever saying that Maerlyn was more powerful than CK. I have heard that Maerlyn was a good guy in some readings, but in TDT mythos it makes him out to be evil. I think Maerlyn was a man, and an evil one in this world. CK might have taken him in as an emissary had he not crawled away and disappeared.

CK is the most evil, even during his insanity at the end. Roland was able to face him because they are brothers in a way, so it wasn't hard for him. Patrick Danville confuses me.

In terms of Flagg, no CK is more powerful because he is more evil. Flagg is a man and possibly a demi-god, but not with the abilities of CK and Mordred. CK and Mordred were more or less old things of the prim that are born as inherent evil of nature. Flagg chose his path of evil. I believe Mordred chose to help the ka-tet as much as he could, but he knew he'd never be able to join them. He was far too treacherous. These are only my interpretations. Where does it say Maerlyn is more powerful? Song of Susannah, or elsewhere?

[LadyHitchhiker]

I still don't remember Mordred wanting to be part of the ka-tet... anyone have a reference to refresh my brain, or is it from the comics?

[19eye-rosecrow-gun]

It is mentioned in The Dark Tower (B7). It is in one of the few narratives from Mordred's perspective. He thinks of joining the Ka-Tet, but ultimately decides he hates his White father Roland. He decides The Crimson King is his 'Real' father.

From what I remember, there is a subtext going on revealing only with the slightest notion in which Mordred wants to be a part of the Ka-Tet. Try reading TDT 7 again.

[a fan]

I just remembered something inside an issue of TDT graphic series, where it says Flagg's father was Merlin, and mother was the goddess of the moon and night, but I am not sure if I am correct. In this case, wouldn't that make Flagg a Demi-God (probably not as powerful as Mordred)?

i thank who ever wrote that grafic novel add what wasnt thare flagg was just a boy strong in touch how tock years refining his skill to an aet form and by no maens a demi god

and in the dark tower it sugests that flagg could have been merlin

[a fan]

I still don't remember Mordred wanting to be part of the ka-tet... anyone have a reference to refresh my brain, or is it from the comics?

when he was out side the cave before the battle to save the beam he say he wanted to be part of the tet also in the forest whgale frezzing to death

[a fan]

It is mentioned in The Dark Tower (B7). It is in one of the few narratives from Mordred's perspective. He thinks of joining the Ka-Tet, but ultimately decides he hates his White father Roland. He decides The Crimson King is his 'Real' father.

From what I remember, there is a subtext going on revealing only with the slightest notion in which Mordred wants to be a part of the Ka-Tet. Try reading TDT 7 again.



i thamk the desition that he hates roland came only from a felling of being unwanted and not acual hate

[a fan]

sorry about just coping insted of quoting my computer in not leting me

[pathoftheturtle]

I don't remember it ever saying that Maerlyn was more powerful than CK. I have heard that Maerlyn was a good guy in some readings, but in TDT mythos it makes him out to be evil. I think Maerlyn was a man, and an evil one in this world. CK might have taken him in as an emissary had he not crawled away and disappeared.

CK is the most evil, even during his insanity at the end. Roland was able to face him because they are brothers in a way, so it wasn't hard for him. Patrick Danville confuses me.

In terms of Flagg, no CK is more powerful because he is more evil. Flagg is a man and possibly a demi-god, but not with the abilities of CK and Mordred. CK and Mordred were more or less old things of the prim that are born as inherent evil of nature. Flagg chose his path of evil. I believe Mordred chose to help the ka-tet as much as he could, but he knew he'd never be able to join them. He was far too treacherous. These are only my interpretations. Where does it say Maerlyn is more powerful? Song of Susannah, or elsewhere?Oh, you probably only read the trade editions. In the single comic issues as originally released, there were text stories appended, along with encyclopedic entries that later were used for the guidebook/almanac issues. These legends of Mid-World definitely served as the basis for the "Sorcerer" story you were referring to, and they talk about Maerlyn arising from the prim in ancient times and leading all of the other demons for thousands of years. It was even reportedly his idea to set CK's mother up with Arthur Eld.

Whether Robin Furth was going too far past the canon of the novels is indeed a big question. All of that comes from her, though; it's hard to see how you could accept some without accepting it all.

[Tik]

Why should Mordred be more powerful than RF in that case? Isn't the Maerlyn of the comics more powerful than the Crimson King?

Oh, you probably only read the trade editions. In the single comic issues as originally released, there were text stories appended, along with encyclopedic entries that later were used for the guidebook/almanac issues. These legends of Mid-World definitely served as the basis for the "Sorcerer" story you were referring to, and they talk about Maerlyn arising from the prim in ancient times and leading all of the other demons for thousands of years. It was even reportedly his idea to set CK's mother up with Arthur Eld.

Whether Robin Furth was going too far past the canon of the novels is indeed a big question. All of that comes from her, though; it's hard to see how you could accept some without accepting it all.
Maerlyn is not in charge of the other demons. He's a key player in the cosmic chess game between the White (Gan) and the Outer Dark but thats it. Remember, from the comics it states that "Gan was not the only demiurge to arise from that primordial magical soup". That other demiurge is the true form of the Crimson King, the force of the Outer Dark. And its stated in that comic that the force of the Outer Dark is what created Maerlyn and the other demons. Thats the entity thats in charge.

Unlike the Crimson King, Maerlyn doesn't display any power over ka but is instead used by it. The Laughing Mirror shards infecting reality and getting the Crimson Queen pregnant demonstrates this very clearly - both events are of great importance to the Outer Dark/Random but this happens by accident on Maerlyn's part. In Insomnia Dorrance tells the main characters that Gans minions sent them to do one thing but the White/Purpose/Gan wanted them to do another:

"Clotho and Lachesis may have sent you to High Ridge for the wrong reasons, but the Purpose sent you there for the right ones. You fulfilled your task there."
The same thing applies to Maerlyn. He may be doing these schemes for his own ends but ultimately they fulfill the will of the Outer Dark/Random in ways he never even knew or understood.

An happy accident by Maerlyn (and a planned move by the Random) infected reality via the Mirrors shards allowing the forces of the Outer Dark to infect every level of the Tower. Then another accident by Maerlyn (and another planned move in this cosmic game) resulted in the Outer Dark/Random having an avatar in Mid-World itself....Los' the Crimson King.

We see the Crimson King manipulate fate/ka many many times throughout the DT series, the tie-in books, and the comics. This is much more power than Maerlyn ever displayed. And thats why Mordred is above Flagg in the cosmic pecking order. Although he is mortal due to being part human, he also has the power of the Crimson King - himself the very avatar of the Outer Dark - running through his veins.

[pathoftheturtle]

Oy!

[Merlin1958]

I had to vote "Yes", but I think it bears some qualifying. First off, I think there are two very different categories of folks who read this series, at this point. Those who read it as it was published (like me), and those who can read it after the fact. I suppose fandom comes into play as well. To me though, Flagg represented much, much more than as you have illustrated. He was the Antagonist in "The Stand" and "EOTD" and lurked about in several other stories as those of us waiting for the next installment searched for clues in King's writing like Beatle's fans did playing records backwards.

That was why, to me at least, his exit in the series was so catacysmically WRONG!!!! However, to understand all this (and much more that my meager writing skills do not permit) you had to BE There. He just represented so much more!!! If, you weren't unfortunately, you will just not get it.

Does all that make any sense to others?

[grobblewobble]

In this book I became rather confused about identities. We have:

Randall Flag
Maerlyn
The Crimson King
Marten
Walter
The Ageless Stranger
Sayre
John Farson
The Wizard of Oz

And there have been many statements like "bad guy X is in fact the same as bad guy Y". The problem is, there have been so many of this type of statement that I lost track. Are any two names in the above list definitely *not* the same guy?

[RolandLover]

The Wizard of Oz and John Farson aren't the same guy. Maerlyn/Crimson King aren't either I don't think. Randall Flag/Marten/Walter did confuse me in the book but they are the same.

[Merlin1958]

Just a suggestion, but Robin Furth's "The Dark Tower: A Complete Concordance" is an excellent reference for the books. She was King's Administrative assistant specifically for the Dark Tower novels. Great stuff and well organized.

[grobblewobble]

Thanks. I will buy that compendium at some point, it sounds like a great reference.

Also, I did some research (google, wiki, official site) to find out more about it. Interestingly, on the official site (http://www.stephenking.com/darktower/characters.html) it is stated that:


AGELESS STRANGER: Another name for the great sorcerer Maerlyn. Roland will have to slay him in order to reach the Tower.


And from other sources, the Ageless Stranger is identified as Marten / Walter / Flagg.

So now we have:

Bad guy #1:
Walter = Marten = Flagg = Wizard of Oz = Ageless Stranger = Maerlyn

(This bad guy reminds me of a forum troll, with an endless supply of duplicate accounts. :wtf:)

Bad guy #2:
The Crimson King, chief bad guy

Bad guy #3:
Sayre, who seems to be just a particularly high ranked low man.

Bad guy #4:
John Farson, who is identified as another troll account name for Walter at one point, but from a number of other sources clearly seems to be someone else, as Walter is said to have served under him.

PS: if Walter is indeed Maerlyn, that also explains why Black Thirteen was in his possession.

[Jean]

Walter = Marten = Flagg = Wizard of Oz = Ageless Stranger = Maerlyn

(This bad guy reminds me of a forum troll, with an endless supply of duplicate accounts. :wtf:)

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear4bis.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear4bis.gifhttp://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear4bis.gif

[Brainslinger]

Bad guy #1:
Walter = Marten = Flagg = Wizard of Oz = Ageless Stranger = Maerlyn
.....

PS: if Walter is indeed Maerlyn, that also explains why Black Thirteen was in his possession.

To be even more confusing, he states to the Tick Tock man in The Waste Lands "I was never that one." (You can add Richard Fannin to Walter's aliases too.)

They may be related though. If you read the comic One Shot The Sorceror you will find out in what way. It was written by Robin Furth, but based on information she gleaned from King. Not everyone is happy with that story's version though for reasons that may become apparent as you read on through the novels, but I liked it. I thought it added to the Man in Black's mystique.

[pathoftheturtle]

... but I liked it. I thought it added to the Man in Black's mystique.Well, you can never have too much mystique, right? <_<

[Merlin1958]

... but I liked it. I thought it added to the Man in Black's mystique.Well, you can never have too much mystique, right? <_<

Actually, its "Aura & Mystique" and most of it resides at Yankee Stadium. According to Curt Schilling!!!

[Brainslinger]

... but I liked it. I thought it added to the Man in Black's mystique.Well, you can never have too much mystique, right? <_<

Reading my post back, I wish I'd used a different word than 'mystique'. It strikes me as corny. Heh. What I meant was that the sense of ambiguity resulting from the different origin stories* isn't out of place with a character like Walter. And it's quite possible he lied in The Sorcerer, to increase his sense of importance. He is narrator after all.

*I actually don't think they're a contradiction. They can fit together well enough, it just requires a bit of reinterpretation.

I probably didn't need to spoilerify that as I don't give anything away but anyway...

And yeah... she's a looker. ;)

[Brainslinger]

Actually, its "Aura & Mystique" and most of it resides at Yankee Stadium. According to Curt Schilling!!!

Heh. Silly Englishman that I am, that gag went right over my noggin*.

*translation: The large melon shaped object on top of my neck that rattles when I shake it.

[Merlin1958]

Actually, its "Aura & Mystique" and most of it resides at Yankee Stadium. According to Curt Schilling!!!

Heh. Silly Englishman that I am, that gag went right over my noggin*.

*translation: The large melon shaped object on top of my neck that rattles when I shake it.

LOL Back in 2001, when 9/11 shook NYC, the Yanks played the D-Backs in the World Series. It sorta helped NY get back on it's feet after the tradgedy. At one point Curt Schilling, a pitcher for the D-Backs made a comment regarding the "Aura & Mystique" of Yankee Stadium being the "Cathedral of Baseball" and it sorta bit him and his team on the ass. At least, in NYC. The D-Backs went on to win their one and only championship in 7 games on a late inning hit by Luis Gonzalez off of the greatest Reliever in history, Mariano Rivera. One of his very, very few mis-steps in the post-season.