Violence, Pop Culture/modern society: Is there a correlation?

[biomieg]

Holy shit!!!

Batman US cinema shooting: Fourteen dead in Denver (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18921492)

[Brice]

That is just fucking sickening. :(

[Brice]

I thought this would make for an interesting topic. I'm not sure I want to give my thoughts and opinions yet though. Mine are what they've been for a long time anyhow. I want to see what others think and where this thread will go.

Edit: Of course, I don't mean just regular violence, but more the extreme stuff; for example the theatre shooting that just happened, school shootings, mass killings, terrorism and the like...basically mass semi-random killings or the extreme stuff such as eating a guy's face, serial killings, etc.

[Ben Staad]

That is just fucking sickening. :(

Very sad and confusing.

[Empath of the White]

My heart and prayers go out to the people whose loved ones were in the theater, as well as Nolan and everyone else involved in the movie's production. :(

[Empath of the White]

I think the theatricality of some incidents--like the Colorado shooting; supposedly the guy was dressed similar to Bane--are sick attempts at getting people's attention. Blaming the movies, music etc. is an excuse for not getting treatment for the person in question when the warning signs show up.

[stkmw02]

Such a terrible terrible tragedy.

[Mattrick]

Anything can influence the weak-minded. You dont have took look to far to see evidence of this.

[Brice]

Anything can influence the weak-minded. You dont have took look to far to see evidence of this.

And does our society bear some of the blame for these people or their actions? Did we in fact "create" them as they are? Does our society or society in general produce these sorts as a byproduct of our culture...or whatever? Or are they just "weak minded"?

[Jean]

Anything can influence the weak-minded. This is, basically, what I wanted to say.

We have a proverb: свинья грязи найдет. Roughly: a pig will always find dirt

Brice: yes, society is responsible, but violence in pop culture is the least (if any) of the causes.

[Mattrick]

Our society deserves as much blame for these types as people who volunteer at soup kitchens. Difference is, someone working at a soup kitchen isn't international news, while someone shooting up a movie theatre is. With the advent of the internet it's impossible to contain things like this. Personally, I think if the media were to not glorify events like his to live in infamy, people might not be a inclined to act on it. Many of these shootings and school shootings are done by people who probably have no personal identity or place in society, so in order tbe remembered and have an impact they go to extreme measures. I guarantee this event had no links to terrorism or any statement against society, just someone wanting the world to take notice of them

[stkmw02]

I've done a lot of research on serial killers, it's always fascinated me... I know that every person has the capacity to kill, but that in most (well, hopefully most) it is an instinct for survival and defense. Then of course you up the chances of killing in situations of revenge. Then toss in the "crime of passion" circumstances. It suddenly becomes easy to imagine a scenario when I would kill another person, even someone I love. Of course, for me, there would be a reason that allows me to justify my actions - even if killing is wrong, I would kill as a last resort to protect myself or others. My exposure to violent media at a young age has nothing to do with it. As a sane (well, mostly. lol) and rational person, I recognize that the use of fictional violence does not diminish the horror of actual violence. Media is not the sort of external force that would drive me to injure others. Whether I listen to christian rock or death metal, play candy land or grand theft auto, read Dr. Seuss or Stephen King, watch Care Bears or Friday the 13th... I would take the life of another person only if I felt I had no other options, only if that action was somehow "right".

In a situation like the theatre shooting, something else is involved. When a parent's first reaction to, "your son may have been involved in a mass murder including children" is "You've got the right guy"... well... when a parent knows their child is capable of something like that, something has been wrong for a long time. People will say something should have been done. But what?

My cousin was a messed up kid. He lit fires in the living room, threatened to take a gun to school, and snapped my pet rabbit's neck - all before entering second grade. I said then that if he became a serial killer someday, I wouldn't be surprised. There was that one terrible and scary year, then he got a lot of counseling and has been an incredibly productive member of society. But when his mother passed away last year under suspicious circumstances, we all said it wouldn't surprise us one bit if his step-father turned up dead. Most of our family's gut reaction to learning of her death was, "her husband did it" and I'd be a liar if I said I didn't think about how that man might have an accident... but this is not one of those times, for me, when killing would be a rationale and justifiable act. For my cousin? I was worried. Shortly after my aunt's death, my cousin enlisted. He said he needed to get away, to find direction, and to start a career... that the military will offer him the structure he needs, teach him self-discipline, and allow him to focus on making something of himself to make his mother proud. That doesn't comfort me at all. If he wasn't training for transportation/mechanics, I would be seriously afraid of the kind of killer they might mold him into. Do I think he could kill someone because of the music he listens to? The movies he watches? The games he plays? No. I think he could kill someone because of the way his brain is wired. Because something about him has always been wrong, no matter how hard he tries to be right. Because in a situation where I would want to hurt someone else but won't, I think he would. I think that part of him that should say, "It's okay to think those thoughts to help you process your emotions, but don't act on them because that will not help" that part isn't in there. It never was.

Batman, by the way, was the name of his rabbit... When Batman died, my cousin was so upset that he didn't eat for days. He would cry and cry and when we would try to calm him down, he would say "What to do?" He was in first grade. He didn't know what to do or how to feel or if what he felt was normal. So when he saw that my rabbit was still alive, he killed it. And when I cried, he watched me. And then he asked me, "What do you do now?" And after I explained to him all the emotions I felt - including being angry at him - and how I would bury the rabbit, think of the good memories with her, and eventually move on even though I would never forget her... he cried with me and said he was sorry. And he was. My aunt said he was jealous that Velvet was alive and Batman was dead. My dad said he was just a fucked up kid, angry that I was still happy to have my rabbit when he was so sad his was gone. But I think he killed Velvet because he wanted to see how I grieved. He needed an example of how he was supposed to deal with a dead rabbit, so he gave me a dead rabbit and took notes. Killing Velvet was the last "wrong" thing he ever did. It has been fifteen years since he helped me have a funeral for Velvet, since he asked me who he should be mad at for Batman dying. In those fifteen years, I have never seen him lose his tempter - hit anyone - threaten anyone - or behave in a way that might suggest he was dangerous. He helped raise his half-sister and half-brother, he rescued and rehabilitated animals, and he cared for our sick grandmother. He responded appropriately to situations, with reasonable reactions and emotion. If I hadn't known he killed my rabbit, I would never suspect he could kill another living thing. When he first told his girlfriend about his "bad year" she didn't believe him. She asked me if he was exaggerating, if he really killed my rabbit. I told her he was a perfectly normal child until he entered first grade, and he was a perfectly normal child when he entered second... but that time in between was some scary shit and I'm glad he told her about it. I love him and I support him. I'm not saying my cousin will become a serial killer. I'm not saying he will ever kill another person. What I'm saying is, if he ever does... I would have to say, "You've got the right guy" and there was nothing we could do to prevent it.

As far as the question, could media or pop-culture be responsible for violent behavior? My cousin watched a lot of Barney that year.

[Mattrick]

I think anything can influence anyone if they allow it too. There was a case years back against two people who did tons of LSD and watch Natural Born Killers over and over again, then went on a killing spree; in a state of euphoria they were easily ifluenced by the movie, but it was their own choices that allowed them to be.

[Brice]

Anything can influence the weak-minded. This is, basically, what I wanted to say.

We have a proverb: свинья грязи найдет. Roughly: a pig will always find dirt

Brice: yes, society is responsible, but violence in pop culture is the least (if any) of the causes.

Of course! Do you think I wasn't intentionally vague/misdirecting. I wanna' see what turns the conversation takes. ;) Interesting so far.

[beam*seeker]

It is an interesting question. We (here in the US) have the same amount of guns as other places (like Canada) and are exposed to the same "pop culture" as other places in the Western World (UK, Canada, Japan) including violent video games and movies, etc. So why are Americans more homicidal? In the movie 'Bowling for Columbine" the director Michael Moore implies it is a culture of fear. Not sure if I believe that, nor am I especially a fan of his journalism in general (hokey, exploitative, victimizing) but I think there may be a point there. It is a cultural thing, but I don't think its violent video games and movies.

I just read this guy was a grad student being dismissed from the program at UCD and had tons of flammable stuff and booby traps in his apartment left for the police. He was quite organized, arguing against a psychotic break. So, it wasn't crazy per se. It was well planned and well executed which points more to sociopathy to me. Some folks don't need a reason, they just want to see the world burn...

[beam*seeker]

I am now actually glad I didn't go to the midnight viewing.

[Mattrick]

US and Canada have the same amount of guns? I see you know little of my native country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country


Not to mention most guns in Canada are merely hunting rifles. Unless you're authorized (which is hard) you cannot conceal a fire arm. We're so spread out (second largest landmass compared to Russia) and have so few people, it's hardly even the same as the US. Not to mention a regular guy can't go out and buy an AK-47 and other high powered, automatic rifles. We have 33 guns per 100 people but we also have about 1/12 the population, those people are very spread apart, less likely to shoot each other. Very few homicides happen due to firearms in Canada.

[Jean]

guys, we all read nothing except very violent books, and watch, mainly, same kinds of films. Don't think we've ever chopped anyone's legs off, or dropped bricks on their heads, etc

[stkmw02]

We haven't, Jean... but we sure would have a better idea of how to do it than some other people, and if something caused us to "snap" we just might be responsible for the more creative forms of killing. Not that our exposure to horror caused us to do it, but it could certainly inspire the method if the means were there.

[stkmw02]

Today, a friend of mine posted on facebook that he was sorry to hear the news of the shooting, that he sends condolences to the families, but that he still intends to see the movie today. Some people posted nasty things to him, saying no one should go to see this movie... saying how such a terrible situation should make him not want to so it... etc. And I felt so bad for him. What happened was not a result of the movie. What happened should not be used to hurt the movie. But it's already being described as "The Dark Knight Shooting" and seems to be creating a general feeling of negativity toward the film.

Hell, someone shared this photo and people jumped all over it! http://www.eatliver.com/i.php?n=9118 The photo is awesome. It does not deserve comments like, "You are heartless for posting this after such a tragedy!" Heartless? For posting a pic of a cat on a person's face?

James Holmes killed twelve people and injured countless more... and it seems he also killed this movie. It makes me so sad, angry, and upset.

[Merlin1958]

I was at the Midnight showing here in AZ last night. Great movie!!!! With all due respect to everyone on the boards and the poor victims and their families, I don't think this is the appropriate thread to discuss the tragedy. I think Brice posted a thread regarding violence etc that may be more appropriate for the discussion. JMHO

Of course, my heart goes out to those affected by this senseless violence.

[stkmw02]

Very good point, Bill. If my posts could be moved there, please, in further effort to keep the violence and this movie separate. Thank you.

[Emily]

I think there's a correlation between everything, albeit through degrees of seperation sometimes, but sometimes not. I think everything influences everything.

[Brice]

Later I'll try to move all the posts regarding this incident to the thread I started. It is the catalyst for me starting it after all and at least a part of the topic (though not solely). This thread should be for discussion of the film itself...which I hope was great.

[biomieg]

I was at the Midnight showing here in AZ last night. Great movie!!!! With all due respect to everyone on the boards and the poor victims and their families, I don't think this is the appropriate thread to discuss the tragedy. I think Brice posted a thread regarding violence etc that may be more appropriate for the discussion. JMHO

Of course, my heart goes out to those affected by this senseless violence.

You are right, Bill. I didn't post about this horrible event here for the purpose of discussion, I was just really shocked when I read the news and I happened to see the movie thread at the same time. It would be great if Brice can move the posts to the appropriate thread!

[Empath of the White]

He's claiming he was the Joker. :facepalm:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/20/12850048-man-calling-himself-the-joker-kills-12-injures-59-at-dark-knight-rises-screening-in-aurora-colorado-authorities-say?chromedomain=dailynightly&lite

[Brice]

Ok, here's my opinion (and some may not like it...or might even be pissed by it in ways), but I think the problem is us...not us actually, but the big US...our society. I think we do create this...and all the sort of things like it. I think we are diseased or sick. I think our culture (no, not pop culture) or modern society produces these things and I think it's been going this way a long time. And I'm not sure there's an easy fix. I do not think these people are weak minded (anymore than the average of us at least). It's like a disease of the soul. Now some really smart shrinks will come up with some fancy name for what's wrong with this guy and there will be books and much public discussion that comforts the rest of us into believing that we have a grip on what he did. We don't. I think the real question to ask is what about our society produces these type of people. It's not music, movies, video games or whatever and it's also not the parents. It's something about us as a whole. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking this way, but I have for a long time.

[pathoftheturtle]

Coincidentally, America has created two great original genres in film: Gunfighters and Mobsters. :orely:

[Merlin1958]

Ok, here's my opinion (and some may not like it...or might even be pissed by it in ways), but I think the problem is us...not us actually, but the big US...our society. I think we do create this...and all the sort of things like it. I think we are diseased or sick. I think our culture (no, not pop culture) or modern society produces these things and I think it's been going this way a long time. And I'm not sure there's an easy fix. I do not think these people are weak minded (anymore than the average of us at least). It's like a disease of the soul. Now some really smart shrinks will come up with some fancy name for what's wrong with this guy and there will be books and much public discussion that comforts the rest of us into believing that we have a grip on what he did. We don't. I think the real question to ask is what about our society produces these type of people. It's not music, movies, video games or whatever and it's also not the parents. It's something about us as a whole. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking this way, but I have for a long time.

You're not entirely off base, Brice. I don't want to sound political or anything, but the fact is our "society" has changed substantially in the last 40-50 years and values, etc have as well. It may well be having repercussions that are being manifested in the rise in the number of these type of incidents!!

It's certainly something to consider and think about!!

[Brice]

Ok, here's my opinion (and some may not like it...or might even be pissed by it in ways), but I think the problem is us...not us actually, but the big US...our society. I think we do create this...and all the sort of things like it. I think we are diseased or sick. I think our culture (no, not pop culture) or modern society produces these things and I think it's been going this way a long time. And I'm not sure there's an easy fix. I do not think these people are weak minded (anymore than the average of us at least). It's like a disease of the soul. Now some really smart shrinks will come up with some fancy name for what's wrong with this guy and there will be books and much public discussion that comforts the rest of us into believing that we have a grip on what he did. We don't. I think the real question to ask is what about our society produces these type of people. It's not music, movies, video games or whatever and it's also not the parents. It's something about us as a whole. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking this way, but I have for a long time.

You're not entirely off base, Brice. I don't want to sound political or anything, but the fact is our "society" has changed substantially in the last 40-50 years and values, etc have as well. It may well be having repercussions that are being manifested in the rise in the number of these type of incidents!!

It's certainly something to consider and think about!!

That's basically a part of what I mean(I'm not really sure how to convey it as a full idea yet)*...and (roughly) the same timeline I'd put to it...though I'd have said a bit earlier on my own.

*Roland would say our world is moving on. LOL

[Merlin1958]

Ok, here's my opinion (and some may not like it...or might even be pissed by it in ways), but I think the problem is us...not us actually, but the big US...our society. I think we do create this...and all the sort of things like it. I think we are diseased or sick. I think our culture (no, not pop culture) or modern society produces these things and I think it's been going this way a long time. And I'm not sure there's an easy fix. I do not think these people are weak minded (anymore than the average of us at least). It's like a disease of the soul. Now some really smart shrinks will come up with some fancy name for what's wrong with this guy and there will be books and much public discussion that comforts the rest of us into believing that we have a grip on what he did. We don't. I think the real question to ask is what about our society produces these type of people. It's not music, movies, video games or whatever and it's also not the parents. It's something about us as a whole. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking this way, but I have for a long time.

You're not entirely off base, Brice. I don't want to sound political or anything, but the fact is our "society" has changed substantially in the last 40-50 years and values, etc have as well. It may well be having repercussions that are being manifested in the rise in the number of these type of incidents!!

It's certainly something to consider and think about!!

That's basically a part of what I mean(I'm not really sure how to convey it as a full idea yet)*...and (roughly) the same timeline I'd put to it...though I'd have said a bit earlier on my own.

*Roland would say our world is moving on. LOL

I hear ya!!! Maybe the "Occam's Razor" of it all is that these days we all get "older" a heckuva lot faster than we used to!!!

[Brice]

Ok, here's my opinion (and some may not like it...or might even be pissed by it in ways), but I think the problem is us...not us actually, but the big US...our society. I think we do create this...and all the sort of things like it. I think we are diseased or sick. I think our culture (no, not pop culture) or modern society produces these things and I think it's been going this way a long time. And I'm not sure there's an easy fix. I do not think these people are weak minded (anymore than the average of us at least). It's like a disease of the soul. Now some really smart shrinks will come up with some fancy name for what's wrong with this guy and there will be books and much public discussion that comforts the rest of us into believing that we have a grip on what he did. We don't. I think the real question to ask is what about our society produces these type of people. It's not music, movies, video games or whatever and it's also not the parents. It's something about us as a whole. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking this way, but I have for a long time.

You're not entirely off base, Brice. I don't want to sound political or anything, but the fact is our "society" has changed substantially in the last 40-50 years and values, etc have as well. It may well be having repercussions that are being manifested in the rise in the number of these type of incidents!!

It's certainly something to consider and think about!!

That's basically a part of what I mean(I'm not really sure how to convey it as a full idea yet)*...and (roughly) the same timeline I'd put to it...though I'd have said a bit earlier on my own.

*Roland would say our world is moving on. LOL

I hear ya!!! Maybe the "Occam's Razor" of it all is that these days we all get "older" a heckuva lot faster than we used to!!!

I think maybe that's part of the problem. We get older and maybe we attribute the changes to a generation gap or some such thing. We don't want to believe that there is something REALLY wrong with US...cause if there is how the hell do we fix it. We want to forget ...to move on. Those of us (personally) affected would want to remember our loved ones, but do we really want to understand what makes these people the way they are? I don't think so. I think we want to write those people off as crazies or fanatics (Goddamn, we love our labels, don't we)...cause it's easier and safer. An us and them mentality is easier and safer. Sort of like the situation where people don't want to really talk about things like the world trade center attacks or the holocaust...or whatever really underlying whys there were behind them. It's too soon..or whatever. I don't think it's ever too soon...or too late. In fact I do think I know a big part of the problem...just not sure where to go with it. We're too divisive, but there's more than just that.

[Ka-mai]

My opinion is there are some people out there who are sick in the head, and something triggers them into doing something terrible. I don't think there is any one thing that can be blamed.

I am terribly sad for the victims, but also for the shooter's family. I think some people overlook the perpetrator's family in these circumstances, and for them it can be even worse as they thought they knew this person. I heard the mother of the Nickel Mines shooter speak once, and she was just heartbroken and confused over her son's crime. I don't think anyone in the room wasn't crying with her.

[Merlin1958]

Ok, here's my opinion (and some may not like it...or might even be pissed by it in ways), but I think the problem is us...not us actually, but the big US...our society. I think we do create this...and all the sort of things like it. I think we are diseased or sick. I think our culture (no, not pop culture) or modern society produces these things and I think it's been going this way a long time. And I'm not sure there's an easy fix. I do not think these people are weak minded (anymore than the average of us at least). It's like a disease of the soul. Now some really smart shrinks will come up with some fancy name for what's wrong with this guy and there will be books and much public discussion that comforts the rest of us into believing that we have a grip on what he did. We don't. I think the real question to ask is what about our society produces these type of people. It's not music, movies, video games or whatever and it's also not the parents. It's something about us as a whole. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking this way, but I have for a long time.

You're not entirely off base, Brice. I don't want to sound political or anything, but the fact is our "society" has changed substantially in the last 40-50 years and values, etc have as well. It may well be having repercussions that are being manifested in the rise in the number of these type of incidents!!

It's certainly something to consider and think about!!

That's basically a part of what I mean(I'm not really sure how to convey it as a full idea yet)*...and (roughly) the same timeline I'd put to it...though I'd have said a bit earlier on my own.

*Roland would say our world is moving on. LOL

I hear ya!!! Maybe the "Occam's Razor" of it all is that these days we all get "older" a heckuva lot faster than we used to!!!

I think maybe that's part of the problem. We get older and maybe we attribute the changes to a generation gap or some such thing. We don't want to believe that there is something REALLY wrong with US...cause if there is how the hell do we fix it. We want to forget ...to move on. Those of us (personally) affected would want to remember our loved ones, but do we really want to understand what makes these people the way they are? I don't think so. I think we want to write those people off as crazies or fanatics (Goddamn, we love our labels, don't we)...cause it's easier and safer. An us and them mentality is easier and safer. Sort of like the situation where people don't want to really talk about things like the world trade center attacks or the holocaust...or whatever really underlying whys there were behind them. It's too soon..or whatever. I don't think it's ever too soon...or too late. In fact I do think I know a big part of the problem...just not sure where to go with it. We're too divisive, but there's more than just that.

TMI, much too early, and with little supervision? They just get "older" these days with no one to guide them who has any experience. Families are increasingly "split" so there's no central "supervising" body. In a way, if you are old enough to have lived through the changes to society's rule's, it's really not "rocket science". Again, not political more like fact. Have we come a long way as a society? yes!!! Have we addressed the consequences? no!!!

[Brice]

My opinion is there are some people out there who are sick in the head, and something triggers them into doing something terrible. I don't think there is any one thing that can be blamed.
QUOTE]

Hey Sarah, I can understand and respect that viewpoint (I've basically had the same opinion at times in the past), but I also think that's the easy answer and is probably directly opposed to what I'm (trying) to get at. I'd argue it, but really I think I already have as solidly as I can at this point. Of course, my idea is not fully formed though.






[QUOTE=Brice;715668]Ok, here's my opinion (and some may not like it...or might even be pissed by it in ways), but I think the problem is us...not us actually, but the big US...our society. I think we do create this...and all the sort of things like it. I think we are diseased or sick. I think our culture (no, not pop culture) or modern society produces these things and I think it's been going this way a long time. And I'm not sure there's an easy fix. I do not think these people are weak minded (anymore than the average of us at least). It's like a disease of the soul. Now some really smart shrinks will come up with some fancy name for what's wrong with this guy and there will be books and much public discussion that comforts the rest of us into believing that we have a grip on what he did. We don't. I think the real question to ask is what about our society produces these type of people. It's not music, movies, video games or whatever and it's also not the parents. It's something about us as a whole. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking this way, but I have for a long time.

You're not entirely off base, Brice. I don't want to sound political or anything, but the fact is our "society" has changed substantially in the last 40-50 years and values, etc have as well. It may well be having repercussions that are being manifested in the rise in the number of these type of incidents!!

It's certainly something to consider and think about!!

That's basically a part of what I mean(I'm not really sure how to convey it as a full idea yet)*...and (roughly) the same timeline I'd put to it...though I'd have said a bit earlier on my own.

*Roland would say our world is moving on. LOL

I hear ya!!! Maybe the "Occam's Razor" of it all is that these days we all get "older" a heckuva lot faster than we used to!!!

I think maybe that's part of the problem. We get older and maybe we attribute the changes to a generation gap or some such thing. We don't want to believe that there is something REALLY wrong with US...cause if there is how the hell do we fix it. We want to forget ...to move on. Those of us (personally) affected would want to remember our loved ones, but do we really want to understand what makes these people the way they are? I don't think so. I think we want to write those people off as crazies or fanatics (Goddamn, we love our labels, don't we)...cause it's easier and safer. An us and them mentality is easier and safer. Sort of like the situation where people don't want to really talk about things like the world trade center attacks or the holocaust...or whatever really underlying whys there were behind them. It's too soon..or whatever. I don't think it's ever too soon...or too late. In fact I do think I know a big part of the problem...just not sure where to go with it. We're too divisive, but there's more than just that.

TMI, much too early, and with little supervision? They just get "older" these days with no one to guide them who has any experience. Families are increasingly "split" so there's no central "supervising" body. In a way, if you are old enough to have lived through the changes to society's rule's, it's really not "rocket science". Again, not political more like fact. Have we come a long way as a society? yes!!! Have we addressed the consequences? no!!!

I would say a shift in family dynamics is probably a factor to a considerable degree.

I don't even think we've fully grasped the consequences. And I'm not saying the changes are bad, but I think we've gotten away from analyzing potential consequences before making changes in all aspects of our society. It's almost like all change is good. I had a boss once tell me there's no such thing as a bad idea. I said "that's one". :rofl:

[Ka-mai]

Ugh, I had something typed out and I lost it, so fuck it. Here's a summary.

There is something wrong with our society, however, we have always throughout the history of mankind had people who just got up one day and committed an atrocity. Maybe they burned down a tavern when it was full of people or whatever. If they were rich or powerful they could probably get away with it until there was an uprising. It seems like there's a lot more of these people around now, but there's also just a lot more people on earth in general.

[Empath of the White]

Perhaps, in cases like Aurora where the guy said he was the "Joker", he is imitating a fictional character because he believes that the character would approve of his actions? As has been said, our society is rapidly advancing and full of competition. It may be something as trivial as the scramble to get the latest cell phone or as important as trying to land a stable job or career. The cost of remaining competitive is time. Time that could be used for socializing with others. So maybe in cases like this guy from Aurora, the people he considered important ignored him, or weren't there to provide him the social support he needed. Hence he turns to a fictional character.

[Brice]

Ugh, I had something typed out and I lost it, so fuck it. Here's a summary.

There is something wrong with our society, however, we have always throughout the history of mankind had people who just got up one day and committed an atrocity. Maybe they burned down a tavern when it was full of people or whatever. If they were rich or powerful they could probably get away with it until there was an uprising. It seems like there's a lot more of these people around now, but there's also just a lot more people on earth in general.

I can agree an increase in poulation is a factor just like I'd agree that our exposure to media is a factor. In fact I've used the same argument to support my idea that hitchiking is no more dangerous than it used to be. To an extent I think you're right there; I just think there's something else at play too...which is absolutely unprovable without hard data and statistics I'm too lazy to gather. :lol: Maybe it's something as simple as entropy...I don't know.


Perhaps, in cases like Aurora where the guy said he was the "Joker", he is imitating a fictional character because he believes that the character would approve of his actions? As has been said, our society is rapidly advancing and full of competition. It may be something as trivial as the scramble to get the latest cell phone or as important as trying to land a stable job or career. The cost of remaining competitive is time. Time that could be used for socializing with others. So maybe in cases like this guy from Aurora, the people he considered important ignored him, or weren't there to provide him the social support he needed. Hence he turns to a fictional character.

Yes, in fact the joker would approve. but then he'd be publicly mocking the guy after he did it...and taking delight in the fact that he was dumbass enough to do so for his approval.

[pathoftheturtle]

I saw Paul Verhoven speak a few years ago, and he said he never could have made Basic Instinct in the Netherlands because the murder rate is too low for suspension of disbelief. Meaning I'd prefer to do my hitchhiking in Europe.

[RainInSpain]

What this all makes me think about, on a grander scale, is what the end of us as a species will be. Is the increasing frequency of such incidents (or does it only seem that it's increasing?) a symptom of the humankind nearing its decline?Much like it is with all sorts of mechanisms: they first start showing smaller signs of wear and tear, and then one day just stop working.

[Brice]

What this all makes me think about, on a grander scale, is what the end of us as a species will be. Is the increasing frequency of such incidents (or does it only seem that it's increasing?) a symptom of the humankind nearing its decline?Much like it is with all sorts of mechanisms: they first start showing smaller signs of wear and tear, and then one day just stop working.

Yeah, that's along the same lines as what I meant when I suggested entropy. The decline of our civilization perhaps if not out species?

[pathoftheturtle]

If the best is behind us, then when exactly we were ever "working" anyway?
IMO, the best you can say for times like the 50s is that they HID the bad gunky better than now.

[Jean]

IMO, the best you can say for times like the 50s is that they HID the bad gunky better than now.isn't this what civilization is about? As opposed to culture, which is overcoming the bad gunky. As opposed, in its turn, to political correctness which is, basically, the prohibition of expressing anything bad-gunky-ish verbally, under the misapprehension that this way the gunky will dissipate - while it is only being fed.

[pathoftheturtle]

... political correctness which is, basically, the prohibition of expressing anything bad-gunky-ish verbally, under the misapprehension that this way the gunky will dissipate - while it is only being fed.Yes, but P.C. is a narrow term specifying a recent phenomenon, and your point applies just as well to repression in general.

isn't this what civilization is about? As opposed to culture...Perhaps, but civilization is a broad term not usually set opposite culture, maybe misleading here, despite how well your point applies to the related "civility."

...culture...is overcoming the bad gunky...
Ah, this porridge is just right!
And I believe you're absolutely correct. If anything, violent fiction is "symptomatic" of violence as vomit could be called a symptom for poison. That's just the reason I'm so vexed by censorship -- I don't know any substitute for art in this regard, except years of therapy or religion. I do not at all believe that there's any effectiveness in punitive conditioning, deterrence, or any of that extra gunky which all censors seem to count on.

[pathoftheturtle]

http://henryjenkins.org/2012/07/a_pedagogical_response_to_the.html

[mystima]

Ok, here's my opinion (and some may not like it...or might even be pissed by it in ways), but I think the problem is us...not us actually, but the big US...our society. I think we do create this...and all the sort of things like it. I think we are diseased or sick. I think our culture (no, not pop culture) or modern society produces these things and I think it's been going this way a long time. And I'm not sure there's an easy fix. I do not think these people are weak minded (anymore than the average of us at least). It's like a disease of the soul. Now some really smart shrinks will come up with some fancy name for what's wrong with this guy and there will be books and much public discussion that comforts the rest of us into believing that we have a grip on what he did. We don't. I think the real question to ask is what about our society produces these type of people. It's not music, movies, video games or whatever and it's also not the parents. It's something about us as a whole. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking this way, but I have for a long time.

When I read this I had one question. Have we as a civilization gotten better or stayed the same? Have we gotten better? Take the late 17 century, to be more specific, the Ripper case. The murders became so famous that it garnered a world wide media frenzy. People wanted to know if the murderer had been captured or if he had struck again? Journalists were frustrated by the unwillingness of the CID to reveal details of their investigation to the public, and so resorted to writing reports that were the equivalent of today's tabloids and caused one person to be arrested falsely because of their reporting. I guess what I am saying is should we consider ourselves better than what we were in 1888 or are we the same and just have evolved industriously and made things better to live with the way that we behave and with the choices that we have made?

[Mattrick]

In the vein of Vonnegut, some people just have the bad chemicals in their brain which make them do crazy things. It's rare that humans have a trust in their own voice, in their own opinions, and this is where religion and the media attain their power. They accept the world as it is presented to them. They lose the ability to rationalize what they see and experience as they place endless trust in all the sources of information available to them. To be honest, I think if people do go insane and start doing stuff like this all over, I can only blame the internet. With the advent of the internet and smart phones, people are bombarded by information all day long; this one top of all the entertainment mediums, advertising, pictures, music and their own personal experiences. We never had much of a learning curve with absorbing of information; suddenly, without time to properly evolve to absorb such vast amounts of information, the brain can fuse out, send mixed signals, ignite parts of the brain with activity and kill others completely. Eventually, I believe people become so saturated with other people's thoughts in this day and age they forget their own, they forget their idenity and their humanity. The brain can only absorb so much information at a time. It would, in turn, begin to choose the easiest to process and that would often be familiar pieces of information; thus people can become obsessed with things so to allow the brain to function better. This can be something innocent or something harmful. An exhausted brain can be manipulated by one well timed factoid, the simpliest notion can control someone's mind. We are not evolved to intake so much information and I believe people's brains ent lower power mode and is very selective about the information is takes notice of. This is where an idea can take hold and a person will be super determined to make the idea come to fruition if only to be single minded and not bombarded with information.

[pathoftheturtle]

True, people need to have their own identity, but on the other hand, sometimes people have too much faith in their own personal thoughts. Prejudice and paranoia are a couple of examples of effects from being totally cut off from mainstream information sources. So it's a balancing act... but, yes indeed Matt, we need to be each responsible for balancing ourselves.

[Merlin1958]

Sort of random, but did you all see that sick fuck in court today? What the hell is happening to us all? My God!!!

[Heather19]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion. But there are some people that just for whatever reason lack a conscious and emotions. Something with the chemistry in their brain or whatnot. Have any of you heard of this book The Sociopath Next Door? Its been getting good reviews and I've been curious about reading it. I beleieve it tries to explain what these people are like. A normal sane person is not going to go on a mass murdering spree because of something he saw on tv. You have to have something seriously wrong with you and to lack certain things if you're going to do something like that. I don't think you can blame the media at all.

[Brice]

I fear there is no normal and that sanity has always been on shaky ground, Heather.



Ok, here's my opinion (and some may not like it...or might even be pissed by it in ways), but I think the problem is us...not us actually, but the big US...our society. I think we do create this...and all the sort of things like it. I think we are diseased or sick. I think our culture (no, not pop culture) or modern society produces these things and I think it's been going this way a long time. And I'm not sure there's an easy fix. I do not think these people are weak minded (anymore than the average of us at least). It's like a disease of the soul. Now some really smart shrinks will come up with some fancy name for what's wrong with this guy and there will be books and much public discussion that comforts the rest of us into believing that we have a grip on what he did. We don't. I think the real question to ask is what about our society produces these type of people. It's not music, movies, video games or whatever and it's also not the parents. It's something about us as a whole. Maybe I'm fucked up for thinking this way, but I have for a long time.

When I read this I had one question. Have we as a civilization gotten better or stayed the same? Have we gotten better? Take the late 17 century, to be more specific, the Ripper case. The murders became so famous that it garnered a world wide media frenzy. People wanted to know if the murderer had been captured or if he had struck again? Journalists were frustrated by the unwillingness of the CID to reveal details of their investigation to the public, and so resorted to writing reports that were the equivalent of today's tabloids and caused one person to be arrested falsely because of their reporting. I guess what I am saying is should we consider ourselves better than what we were in 1888 or are we the same and just have evolved industriously and made things better to live with the way that we behave and with the choices that we have made?

Funny how you asked if we've gotten better or stayed the same, but left out the possibility that we're worse.


Sort of random, but did you all see that sick fuck in court today? What the hell is happening to us all? My God!!!

I missed this.

[Brice]

Oh, and I'll likely sound like a dick for saying this, but I have no interest in Holmes' state of mind or sanity. Here's how my train of thought runs...

crime (kill people)--->no good reason--->punishment

[Mattrick]

Caring about his state of mind gives him the attention he craves and opens the floodgates for more of these incidents to occur.

[pathoftheturtle]

Oh, and I'll likely sound like a dick for saying this, but I have no interest in Holmes' state of mind or sanity. Here's how my train of thought runs...

crime (kill people)--->no good reason--->punishment
Not exactly like a dick. Unless dick means instinctive reactionary aggressor. Well Okay, I guess that is the meaning... Sorry. AWKward...

Caring about his state of mind gives him the attention he craves and opens the floodgates for more of these incidents to occur.Assuming a mind able to grasp those consequences.

[Brice]

Oh, and I'll likely sound like a dick for saying this, but I have no interest in Holmes' state of mind or sanity. Here's how my train of thought runs...

crime (kill people)--->no good reason--->punishment
Not exactly like a dick. Unless dick means instinctive reactionary aggressor. Well Okay, I guess that is the meaning... Sorry. AWKward...

Caring about his state of mind gives him the attention he craves and opens the floodgates for more of these incidents to occur.Assuming a mind able to grasp those consequences.

Okay, IF I didn't sound like a dick before I think I'll go ahead and cross that threshold :lol: ...when I say I'm not reactionary or instinctive at all in this stance. Whether you agree or not I've put quite a bit of thought into it over the years and I've come to that possibly simplistic seeming conclusion. Choose to do bad things...get punished. Why means nothing. Nor does your mental state. Or that you're three and mentally handicapped. Now I'm 100% anti-death penalty, but I'm all for punishing those who do wrong. I'm a bit more forgiving and pretty well okay with considering such things as the state of mind if we're talking a lesser crime, but we're talking mass murder here. Now again, I'm not advocating killing anyone, but I don't really care about his state of mind when he fucking ended or devastated the states of mind of so many others. I don't really care if fifty gang members raped his mom's corpse in front of him immediately before this; he killed a bunch of people and hurt more. Unless someone can demonstrate he was forced to do so by someone other than his own mind or that there was some vast conspiracy (as I've already heard suggested sadly) he's guilty and deserves some form of punishment. What form; I'm not sure, but I am a million percent sure he doesn't belong in society at least until he can take it back. After that I'm more than happy to at least entertain his possible reintegration into society or whatever.

[pathoftheturtle]

You think incaceration=punishment?
Maybe I'm just hung up on that word. Because that's what I find simplistic. The structure of your formula -commit crime>>receive correction- I have no problem with. But punishment sounds pointless and emotional.

[pathoftheturtle]

You think incaceration=punishment?
Maybe I'm just hung up on that word. Because that's what I find simplistic. The structure of your formula -commit crime>>receive correction- I have no problem with. But punishment sounds pointless and emotional.

[Brice]

You think incaceration=punishment?
Maybe I'm just hung up on that word. Because that's what I find simplistic. The structure of your formula -commit crime>>receive correction- I have no problem with. But punishment sounds pointless and emotional.


See to my thinking that semantic difference is a nonissue. I mean how often would you say your average violent criminal is "corrected". Punishment IS what it is; more so government sanctioned retribution. The goal isn't correction imo, nor should it be. You correct a mistake; not a willfull act. I'm gonna' say this a little funny, but I basically mean it too...if he tripped, fell, and accidentally boobytrapped his house before going on a maniacal rampage by all means let's correct it. If not let's punish him. He's kinda' been a little naughty.

[pathoftheturtle]

Starting on 9/11 I said again and again "No, we are not at war; it's terroism. There's a difference." But we went into Iraq anyway because people don't care, and lost bin Laden for years.
You say the state of his mind doesn't matter, but apparently that is becase you think you know the answer already. Free will is your foregone conclusion.
Again I ask, what good does retribution do? You're right that in our system reform is hardly ever real, but maybe THAT is why we're such a violent country.

[Hannah]

First, I have to say that I think his state of mind (mentally ill versus completely fucking sane) is very important but only because this will determine whether or not he gets the death penalty, which is allowed in CO in cases of multiple murders. I also just want to throw my two cents in, I believe strongly that societal indifference is contributing to acts of violence in America. Indifference to the poor, the needy, the socially awkward, the sad, the lonely, the mentally ill, the bullied, etc. all contribute to what I feel is a generally calloused society. I'm not saying everyone doesn't care, just that generally speaking our government and society projects indifference to the suffering of its citizens.

I also feel that another contributing factor is our tendency to prescribe experimental (or even established) medication for mental illness without ample supervison. But that's probably a completely different discussion...

[Brice]

First, I have to say that I think his state of mind (mentally ill versus completely fucking sane) is very important but only because this will determine whether or not he gets the death penalty, which is allowed in CO in cases of multiple murders. I also just want to throw my two cents in, I believe strongly that societal indifference is contributing to acts of violence in America. Indifference to the poor, the needy, the socially awkward, the sad, the lonely, the mentally ill, the bullied, etc. all contribute to what I feel is a generally calloused society. I'm not saying everyone doesn't care, just that generally speaking our government and society projects indifference to the suffering of its citizens.

I also feel that another contributing factor is our tendency to prescribe experimental (or even established) medication for mental illness without ample supervison. But that's probably a completely different discussion...

The heart of everything I was trying to say earlier is right here I think.

Nail hit on the motherfuckin' head! :D

*hands all the internetz over to the winner*

:couple:

[pathoftheturtle]

First, I have to say that I think his state of mind (mentally ill versus completely fucking sane) is very important but only because this will determine whether or not he gets the death penalty, which is allowed in CO in cases of multiple murders. I also just want to throw my two cents in, I believe strongly that societal indifference is contributing to acts of violence in America. Indifference to the poor, the needy, the socially awkward, the sad, the lonely, the mentally ill, the bullied, etc. all contribute to what I feel is a generally calloused society. I'm not saying everyone doesn't care, just that generally speaking our government and society projects indifference to the suffering of its citizens.

I also feel that another contributing factor is our tendency to prescribe experimental (or even established) medication for mental illness without ample supervison. But that's probably a completely different discussion...

The heart of everything I was trying to say earlier is right here I think.

Nail hit on the motherfuckin' head! :D

*hands all the internetz over to the winner*

:couple:Me, too. :o
:thumbsup:

[Brice]

First, I have to say that I think his state of mind (mentally ill versus completely fucking sane) is very important but only because this will determine whether or not he gets the death penalty, which is allowed in CO in cases of multiple murders. I also just want to throw my two cents in, I believe strongly that societal indifference is contributing to acts of violence in America. Indifference to the poor, the needy, the socially awkward, the sad, the lonely, the mentally ill, the bullied, etc. all contribute to what I feel is a generally calloused society. I'm not saying everyone doesn't care, just that generally speaking our government and society projects indifference to the suffering of its citizens.

I also feel that another contributing factor is our tendency to prescribe experimental (or even established) medication for mental illness without ample supervison. But that's probably a completely different discussion...

The heart of everything I was trying to say earlier is right here I think.

Nail hit on the motherfuckin' head! :D

*hands all the internetz over to the winner*

:couple:Me, too. :o
:thumbsup:

Really I suspected this was a situation where we'd mostly agree. I think all or most of our arguments reduce to semantics. Sorry for the slow/lack of response earlier. Pesky life getting in the fuckin way of my internet time. <_<

Now for something really disturbing related to the holmes thing:

http://gawker.com/5930565/why-james-holmes-has-fans-on-the-internet

[Hannah]

"Holmies." Fucking wow.

I'm kind of not surprised that this has sprung up so quickly. Serial killers always seem to develope a fan group. Attention seeking young people seem to make up a majority of the "Holmies."

An interesting collection of these fans posts on tumblr here:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/a-guide-to-the-dark-world-of-the-james-holmes-inte

yet another edit:

oh man. and this:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jwherrman/the-worst-twitter-account-on-earth-has-40k-followe

[mystima]

next we will see a site where there will be lots of people putting bids on who wants to marry the guy....uhhh...

[Brice]

*runs to set up an ebay auction to sell James Holmes*

[mystima]

Interesting story on what one person believes the media has done to their dad.

The Brainwashing Of My Dad (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1277976/-The-Brainwashing-Of-My-Dad-By-Limbaugh-Fox-Hate-Media-Documentary-Update)

[Kingfan24]

Interesting story on what one person believes the media has done to their dad.

The Brainwashing Of My Dad (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1277976/-The-Brainwashing-Of-My-Dad-By-Limbaugh-Fox-Hate-Media-Documentary-Update)

okay but on the flip side, turn on the TV and you see the liberal agenda on almost every station.

[Merlin1958]

Interesting story on what one person believes the media has done to their dad.

The Brainwashing Of My Dad (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1277976/-The-Brainwashing-Of-My-Dad-By-Limbaugh-Fox-Hate-Media-Documentary-Update)

okay but on the flip side, turn on the TV and you see the liberal agenda on almost every station.

I won't weigh in on either side, My opinions are my own. However, I will agree that the ENTIRE media needs to be held accountable. Left, Right and the middle. Seems to me that gone are the days of journalistic integrity and they have been replaced with the quest for rating and the almighty dollar (at least with the Network News and newspaper's). The liberals may be a bit more subtle than FOX news, but they are just as bad in the long run. It's ratings and revenue that drive the news these days. IMHO

[Joe315]

Every media group is guilty of this, not just the right leaning ones.

Besides, if Rush Limbaugh had as much influence as people claim he does, don't you think he'd be running the country at this point.

[Br!an]

Interesting story on what one person believes the media has done to their dad.

The Brainwashing Of My Dad (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1277976/-The-Brainwashing-Of-My-Dad-By-Limbaugh-Fox-Hate-Media-Documentary-Update)

okay but on the flip side, turn on the TV and you see the liberal agenda on almost every station.

I turn on the TV and I see the corporate agenda for the most part.

I have to seek out foreign and independent news sources just to know what's going on.

[jhanic]

Interesting story on what one person believes the media has done to their dad.

The Brainwashing Of My Dad (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1277976/-The-Brainwashing-Of-My-Dad-By-Limbaugh-Fox-Hate-Media-Documentary-Update)

okay but on the flip side, turn on the TV and you see the liberal agenda on almost every station.

I won't weigh in on either side, My opinions are my own. However, I will agree that the ENTIRE media needs to be held accountable. Left, Right and the middle. Seems to me that gone are the days of journalistic integrity and they have been replaced with the quest for rating and the almighty dollar (at least with the Network News and newspaper's). The liberals may be a bit more subtle than FOX news, but they are just as bad in the long run. It's ratings and revenue that drive the news these days. IMHO

Bill, have you ever watched MSNBC? They are about as subtle as an axe.

John

[Jon]

I used to rely on "The Russian Times" but now I hear several of their top reporters have left in protest.

And no, I am not referring to the gal that quit "Russia Today," Liz Wahl.

[Merlin1958]

Interesting story on what one person believes the media has done to their dad.

The Brainwashing Of My Dad (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1277976/-The-Brainwashing-Of-My-Dad-By-Limbaugh-Fox-Hate-Media-Documentary-Update)

okay but on the flip side, turn on the TV and you see the liberal agenda on almost every station.

I won't weigh in on either side, My opinions are my own. However, I will agree that the ENTIRE media needs to be held accountable. Left, Right and the middle. Seems to me that gone are the days of journalistic integrity and they have been replaced with the quest for rating and the almighty dollar (at least with the Network News and newspaper's). The liberals may be a bit more subtle than FOX news, but they are just as bad in the long run. It's ratings and revenue that drive the news these days. IMHO

Bill, have you ever watched MSNBC? They are about as subtle as an axe.

John

To be honest, I stick to the "Network" stuff. Now, my wife, she goes for the "Cable Channels". In truth, I am beginning to question the validity of either. FWIW, I am a card carrying "Republican".