The Fate of Flagg..SPOILERS!

[Chels921]

Are you happy with the way King choose to end Flagg? For ex., instead of Mordred, don't you think it would've been better for Roland to have killed him, considering Flagg was responsible for the death of so many of his close friends?

[CyberGhostface]

Hated it. Worse thing King has ever done. Even if King wanted to show that Flagg was a "bumhug" he deserved at least one final confrontation with Roland given that the very first sentence of the series was building up their conflict.

Welcome to the forum, btw. :)

[Brice]

Though I'd have loved a Flagg/Roland confrontation I think Flagg got exactly what he deserved.

[Jean]

Hated it. Worse thing King has ever done. Even if King wanted to show that Flagg was a "bumhug" he deserved at least one final confrontation with Roland given that the very first sentence of the series was building up their conflict.
The very first sentence is built on Flagg eluding Roland. Just like he always avoided any kind of confrontation.

[Merlin1958]

Flagg got his in the end!!!!

[CyberGhostface]

Hated it. Worse thing King has ever done. Even if King wanted to show that Flagg was a "bumhug" he deserved at least one final confrontation with Roland given that the very first sentence of the series was building up their conflict.
The very first sentence is built on Flagg eluding Roland. Just like he always avoided any kind of confrontation.

Regardless, it still established him as Roland's arch-nemesis early on. Although in that case he was probably playing a game of cat and mouse with Roland.

[Jean]

I know, Cyber, we've had this discussion 7 years next October. I see your point to an extent. I still think that King didn't refuse to write the Big Confrontation because he was unable to, or lazy, or something, but because he, like me, saw that it wouldn't fit into Flagg's character and all his known mode of actions; but I understand how one may feel cheated.

[pathoftheturtle]

Blah, blah, blah... it's a complaint we hear over and over from different people. Didn't bother me much first time I read it, and now that I've heard lots of folken saying that it wasn't what they expected, I'm just glad that we didn't get what lots did expect 'cause I've realized that that would have been so boring.

[Brice]

Yes, getting what you expect is bad.

[Empath of the White]

On one hand I'd like to have seen each member of the ka-tet using their skills--Jake's touch, Eddie's carving etc.--to defeat Flagg. On the other hand, if you look at The Stand, and The Gunslinger, he gets a couple of lucky ladies pregnant. I'd think a wizard like him could come up with some spell or trick of the Old Ones to keep that from happening if he didn't want a child. Hence Mordred must have been the culmination of some ambition King forogt about or didn't go in depth about...and it bit him (Flagg) in the bum. Sweet justice.

[CyberGhostface]

The series should have ended with Roland taking a dump, tripping and cracking his head open on the toilet. That would be more unexpected than him reaching the Tower at the end, wouldn't it? :evil:

[Empath of the White]

I'd prefer that he reached the Tower, slipped on a slick stone as he was climbing it and plummetted out one of the side windows into the waiting maw of a todash beastie. If we want to be unpredictable, that its.

[fernandito]

I would have loved for Flagg to meet his demise at the hands of Roland after all of the pain and suffering he put him through.

Roland's guns vs Flagg's dark magic. Bah gawd.

[Brice]

Oh, no doubt he deserved it, but he deserved less too.

[pathoftheturtle]

Yar, I see the point... kind of. His end was not "cool" ... whatever that means.

[BigSchu22]

I was disappointed by the ending, but I see it fit in the way that he didn't deserve a conflict or as other have mentioned in other threads, King has a way of silently ending the worst of his characters as if it's worse for them to die in such an easy fashion -- kind of a slap in the face that they get killed in the easiest most trivial way.

I always wondered why it seems that throughout the novels, Flagg is actually helping Roland to an extent. There are many examples, Flagg teaching Roland the hypnotizing trick with the bullet, leaving the ka-tet with packed lunch boxes after they leave the crystal palace, giving black 13 to Father Callahan (even though the rainbow is cursed, it still helped them travel from world to world), and Roland didn't catch him in the Gunslinger, he let Roland catch up, then he proceeded to answer his questions and let him go. There are other examples I can't quite remember, but it seems that more often than not, Flagg is leading him to the tower rather than preventing him from reaching it, even though he knows the prophecy and is an agent of CK.

I suppose at some times the "help" is actually part of his twisted plans to torment Roland in some future way, but it just seems like he has more than his share of opportunities to eliminate Roland and doesn't or his plans are too overly complicated in a TV super villain sort of way.

[pathoftheturtle]

... There are other examples I can't quite remember...Does "tape recorder" ring a bell? *giggle*
... it just seems like he has more than his share of opportunities to eliminate Roland and doesn't or his plans are too overly complicated in a TV super villain sort of way.I know, right?! :lol:

[BigSchu22]

... There are other examples I can't quite remember...Does "tape recorder" ring a bell? *giggle*
... it just seems like he has more than his share of opportunities to eliminate Roland and doesn't or his plans are too overly complicated in a TV super villain sort of way.I know, right?! :lol:

Are you talking about the tape recorder Ted leaves in the cave for Roland and the ka-tet to listen to?

[pathoftheturtle]

Good comparison as a matter of fact, but actually I'm talking about Wolves of the Calla --
"... We'd gone out to a cave near the old garnet mines and there we found a message."
"What kind of message?"
" 'Twas a macine set in the cave's mouth," Henchick said. "Push a button and a voice came out of it. The voice told us to come here."
"You knew of this cave before?"
"Aye, but before the Pere came, it were called the Cave of Voices. For reasons which thee now knows."
Roland nodded and motioned for Henchick to go on.
"The voice from the machine spoke in accents like those of your ka-mates, gunslinger. It said that we should come here, Jemmin and I, and we'd find a door and a man and a wonder. So we did."
"Someone left you instructions," Roland mused. It was Walter he was thinking of. The man in black, who had also left them the cookies Eddie called Keeblers. Walter was Flagg and Flagg was Marten and Marten... was he Maerlyn, the old rouge wizard of legend? On that subject, Roland remained unsure. "And spoke to you by name?"
"Nay, he did not know s'much. Only called us Manni-folk."
"How did this someone know where to leave the voice machine, do you think?"
Henchick's lips thinned. "Why must thee think it was a person? Why not a god speaking in a man's voice? Why not some agent of The Over?"
Roland said, "Gods leave siguls. Men leave machines." ...

[BigSchu22]

Good comparison as a matter of fact, but actually I'm talking about Wolves of the Calla --
"... We'd gone out to a cave near the old garnet mines and there we found a message."
"What kind of message?"
" 'Twas a macine set in the cave's mouth," Henchick said. "Push a button and a voice came out of it. The voice told us to come here."
"You knew of this cave before?"
"Aye, but before the Pere came, it were called the Cave of Voices. For reasons which thee now knows."
Roland nodded and motioned for Henchick to go on.
"The voice from the machine spoke in accents like those of your ka-mates, gunslinger. It said that we should come here, Jemmin and I, and we'd find a door and a man and a wonder. So we did."
"Someone left you instructions," Roland mused. It was Walter he was thinking of. The man in black, who had also left them the cookies Eddie called Keeblers. Walter was Flagg and Flagg was Marten and Marten... was he Maerlyn, the old rouge wizard of legend? On that subject, Roland remained unsure. "And spoke to you by name?"
"Nay, he did not know s'much. Only called us Manni-folk."
"How did this someone know where to leave the voice machine, do you think?"
Henchick's lips thinned. "Why must thee think it was a person? Why not a god speaking in a man's voice? Why not some agent of The Over?"
Roland said, "Gods leave siguls. Men leave machines." ...

Oh yeah! I had completely forgotten about that. I like how he even mentions the food Flagg left for them after the encounter in W&G. See, why is he helping his enemies again?

[Tik]

While I understand people's need for Roland to be there for the end of Flagg, I still say his death was great. Regardless of whether Roland was there or not, we definitely needed a Mordred there too. In every confrontation with Flagg, Roland has proved that simply shooting him doesn't work. Also in order for someone to kill him for good, they need to negate Flagg's emergency teleport. Mordred seizing control of Flagg's mind was a great way to do this and get the job done.

[CyberGhostface]

In every confrontation with Flagg, Roland has proved that simply shooting him doesn't work. Also in order for someone to kill him for good, they need to negate Flagg's emergency teleport.

Well there could have been a number of ways for Roland to work that around with a deus ex machina. Something like how in Lost the Man in Black lost his invulnerability once the "cork" was removed or in Harry Potter once all the Horcruxes were destroyed Voldemort could be killed.

Like let's say Flagg's power is somehow tied to the Wizard's Rainbow, so after such and such is destroyed Flagg loses most of his power. Or say that his power is negated in the presence of the Tower and Gan's influence. And this is just me thinking off the top of my head. King introduced the concept of a magical eraser erasing the Crimson King so he's not above such things.

Personally when King introduced the concept of Todash Darkness in SoS I thought that's how he was going to "kill off" Flagg since he was immortal -- having him float around in darkness for the rest of existence. That would have been a suitable "punishment" that doesn't cheapen his character.

[Tik]

Yes, there could have been many ways of doing him in. But my point still stands, Roland cant use his guns. There needed to be a "Mordred" to finish the job, whatever form that may take.

Mordred did a good job. I'm a big fan of Flagg, he's my favorite villain in any medium, and I didn't think his death scene cheapened the character. It was delightfully gruesome.

[Blaine Is A Pain]

As it has been mentioned in the thread already you guys have discussed this a lot over the years. I was actually surprised Roland or one of the Ka-tet members did not take him down. Or all of them for that matter. So, the way he went out actually did surprise me quite a bit at the time. But I agree it was an incredibly gruesome and disgusting way to go out. I LOVED it!!! Also, it gave Mordred a lot of credibility as a force to be reckoned with the rest of the way. I wondered what it was going to take for Roland to get the job done since he basically had him at the Wizard of Oz palace if it were not for his missing fingers. Good stuff Mr. King!

[unclelouie]

I know this thread hasn't been comented on in a few months, but I just finished the part in DT VII last night, before I went to bed, where Walter meets his end at the hands of Mordred.

I thought it to great for 2 reasons..

1) It brought the story full circle. When I read the Gunslinger, I asked myself, and even posted on the SK forum the musing... "why didnt Walter just kill Roland at the end of the first novel". Well, Walter explains why in DT VII... because if he had killed Roland, Mordred would have never been born... and Walter needed Mordred to enter the tower (and of course Walter was in the service of the King). However, the ultimate prankster got played at the end. I think of it has beautiful irony. And what a way for Walter to meet his end.... to be eaten alive... eyes.. tongue... by the "child" he helped bring into this world.

2) Walter might have been Roland's "oldest enemy", but let's face it... not his "greatest enemy". I think that Walter was obsessed with Roland. I get the feeling Roland rarely thought twice about Walter while on the journey. Walter was sort of an annoyance to Roland when he ran into him, but honestly...... during Roland's journey... throughout 7 novels... he runs into Flagg like, what twice? Walter died without the dignity of having ever gotten to face off with Roland after he told him to denounce the Tower.

And sure "Marten" banged Roland's mom, but... did Roland even know Marten *was* Walter/Flagg? I cant remember if that was ever mentioned.

Plus, Walter is "quasi" mortal. Roland is mortal. The ending was suitable.

[Jean]

I agree with all of the above.


<...> the ultimate prankster got played at the end. I think of it has beautiful irony. <...>

2) Walter might have been Roland's "oldest enemy", but let's face it... not his "greatest enemy". I think that Walter was obsessed with Roland. I get the feeling Roland rarely thought twice about Walter while on the journey. Walter was sort of an annoyance to Roland when he ran into him, but honestly...... during Roland's journey... throughout 7 novels... he runs into Flagg like, what twice? Walter died without the dignity of having ever gotten to face off with Roland after he told him to denounce the Tower.<...>
Perfectly stated.

[CyberGhostface]

I Walter might have been Roland's "oldest enemy", but let's face it... not his "greatest enemy".

Then who was?

[Jean]

I don't think he had any, not since Mejis anyway. He did have obstacles on his way to the Tower.

[unclelouie]

I Walter might have been Roland's "oldest enemy", but let's face it... not his "greatest enemy".

Then who was?


Sai King states in DT VII that Walter is not Roland's "greatest enemy", but his "oldest enemy", hence, my putting those words in quotations.

If I had to guess who Roland's greatest enemy would be though, I'd guess... probably himself.

[CyberGhostface]

That's what Mordred states, and he's a spider who spends most of the book suffering from massive bowel movements.

Regardless, it's clear out of all of Roland's actual enemies, Flagg was the one who caused him the most misery and grief over the course of the series and was the closest thing he had to a personal antagonist. Even if King doesn't want to admit it, that he would bring Flagg back in TWTTK as the antagonist of a largely unrelated story to Roland's quest shows just how massive Flagg is to his canon.

[unclelouie]

I do not doubt Flagg's importance in the cannon at all. I think he is a vital part of the series.

In "The Gunslinger", I'd say Flagg was Roland's prime adversary. I mean, the novel starts with...

.."the man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed". You almost get the sense in the first book that the whole series is going to center around Roland *and* The Man in Black (aka Walter). But it doesn't. However, Walter's palaver with Roland at the end of the novel is central to the reader's understanding of Roland's quest, and it comes back around full circle in DTVII before Mordred disposes of him.

So yes, Walter is vital to the core. But not, IMO Roland's greatest enemey. I mean.... Flagg has so many outside interests.... (ie The Stand).

I will conclude though, that anytime Walter/Flagg made an apperance in the DT novels, I was always pleased. Whether it be his palaver at the end of Gunslinger. The flashback to the Way Station in DT V with Callahan.

[sgc1999]

Also more palatable to know that it was at least Rolands offspring that did him in.
I thought it was all nicely built up. Roland cant seem to Kill Flagg whether not powerful enough, or smart enough, yet mordecai kills him, which now sets the reader up with great expectation. How will Roland fair against Mordecai when he could not even conquer Flagg.
dun dun dun.... :unsure:

[CyberGhostface]

It's that type of logic -- killing off a major antagonist to make a new one more of a major threat -- that pissed me off the most about the way King handled Flagg. Flagg, even if he was arrogant and not as half as powerful as he pretended to be, deserved better than being canon fodder.

And King easily could have come up with a way to get rid of Flagg without Mordred. When he introduced the concept of "Todash darkness" in DT6, I figured King was planning to toss Flagg in there and have him float in darkness for the rest of eternity. Or do something like the Horcruxes and have Flagg's power tied to the Wizard's Rainbow that when they're destroyed, he weakens. I mean, he had the Crimson King defeated with something that literally appeared at the last minute without any sense of build-up.

[WeDealInLead]

Even if King doesn't want to admit it, that he would bring Flagg back in TWTTK as the antagonist of a largely unrelated story to Roland's quest shows just how massive Flagg is to his canon.

Another proof of Flagg's importance lays in the fact that he's in both the opening line of The Gunslinger and the very last sentence of DT 7.

[Jean]

... and both times he fled.

Imagine a prize fighter. Only another prize fighter can be considered his adversary; but someone who puts banana peel under his feet is only a nuisance. That's what RF was for Roland, and that's all he ever could be to people who can't be manipulated.

[CyberGhostface]

There's more than one way to be an adversary. I'm pretty sure Roland would view the man who pretty much destroyed everything he held dear as more than the equivalent of a banana peel under his foot.

[Jean]

You can break a leg on a banana peel. You can break the neck. I think, however, that it all depends on how we understand "adversary". I believe this kind of relationship must be mutual, like love, and involve equality. Otherwise, it's not enemies we are talking about, but someone who does something - like Roland who walks to his Dark Tower - and someone who interferes with the process. It makes him an obstacle rather than an enemy. It doesn't make Flagg less important, or less dangerous, God forbid - it's just a different kind of relationship.

[sgc1999]

I like the idea of jailing him in "todash darkness". Then he could have made some kind of appearance in a future story.

[CyberGhostface]

You can break a leg on a banana peel. You can break the neck. I think, however, that it all depends on how we understand "adversary". I believe this kind of relationship must be mutual, like love, and involve equality. Otherwise, it's not enemies we are talking about, but someone who does something - like Roland who walks to his Dark Tower - and someone who interferes with the process. It makes him an obstacle rather than an enemy. It doesn't make Flagg less important, or less dangerous, God forbid - it's just a different kind of relationship.

I view them as adversaries as both men have an incredibly long history with one another and both hate each other; even if Roland is more concerned with reaching the Tower than settling old scores it's obvious that Walter/Marten is one of the most significant people in his life and one that he thinks back on frequently. Likewise, Flagg clearly hates Roland for reasons beyond meddling with his plans; he blames Roland for his involvement in the death of Gabrielle.

An obstacle to me would better fit someone like Gasher or the Tick Tock Man someone who Roland has little history with or feelings towards besides defeating them.

[WeDealInLead]

Roland and Flagg need each other. It's a symbiotic, almost parasitic relationship. They're Batman and Joker of Mid-World. Flagg could potentially kill Roland but he needs a worthy adversary. Roland, from what we know, can't kill Flagg. Maybe he could, maybe not. He tried once and failed. Maybe an opportunity would've presented itself later but Mordred killed him so the point is moot. Also, would Roland have found the Tower without Flagg? Would he have found the ka-tet? Roland found out much through his palaver with Flagg and there was stuff that went over his head too.

The only reason Roland "caught" Flagg was because Flagg wanted to be caught. He made Roland drop a kid just for the privilege of talking to him.

Again, maybe Roland would have found the Tower on his own but I tend to think that even if he did, it would take him much, much longer. Roland certainly felt he needed to catch Flagg and force it out of him how to get to the Tower.

[pathoftheturtle]

This whole debate, to me, is and always has been extremely interesting and simultaneously extremely uninteresting.
In general, I agree with the "scene as written in DT7 was pretty good" position... but hey, whatever, if you know what I mean.

[unclelouie]

I like the idea of jailing him in "todash darkness". Then he could have made some kind of appearance in a future story.

That's a pretty cool idea. Im sure he'd have made great pets out of the monsters from the Mist.

[sgc1999]

now that would be cool!

[pathoftheturtle]

What ya think about the death of Boba Fett? My apologies to non-Star Wars fans, but I think it's a fair comparison. In the last movie, he suffered a rather undignified end -- knocked by accident into the mouth of the sarlacc. Of course, they brought him back for comic books very quickly: he is considered such a badass villain. So the question; was his survival more plausible than daring to write him off that way?

[CyberGhostface]

IMO the two are a bit different.

Boba Fett IIRC was a minor character with a handful of scenes (and only a few words of dialogue) that became popular afterwards with the fandom so writers in the "Extended Universe" went on to give him more appearances and backstory and then George Lucas built him up in the prequel trilogy. So yes his fate is anticlimactic but retroactively so.

Flagg on the other hand was established well before his death as a major character not only in the Dark Tower series but outside of them as well. Which makes it a lot worse IMO.

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, yes, it's different. Audience feedback barely existed back then. That was just the beginning of the whole blockbuster franchise paradigm. Probably Darth Vader would not have been made into the protagonist if he hadn't been so popular with fans. But just how minor Boba Fett originally was is subjective, IMO: he was actually a pretty big deal, I remember, in the years between Empire and Jedi. I just think that none of us when the latter came out really expected the story later to go on indefinitely quite like it has. And I think one has make a special effort to maintain suspension of disbelief over that bridge to the E.U. in which Boba Fett runs around for several more decades. It's a very conventionalized type of fiction.

[unclelouie]

Re: Boba Fett

I think CyberGhostFace got it right. Boba Fett was infact a minor character. He had little to no screen time, but he had a cool outfit, a cool ship, and a cool minor role. Basically, he was Daryl on Walking Dead before Daryl became a major character later in season 2...

But when I was a kid, Boba Fett wasn't iconic. He was just a cool dude on Empire Strikes Back and Jedi. And indeed, it wasnt until MUCH later Boba Fett became a cult favorite. I remember around the mid 90s, when Star Wars toys were becoming big collectors items, Boba Fett became one of the more valuable figures, and I think that was when he started becoming a cult favorite. Then by the time Lucas re-relased SW in 1997 to theaters, it was then that Boba was a big hit.

[pathoftheturtle]

Ok, maybe. But the relevant question is, if he'd been a bigger hit, would that have made it wrong for the writer to kill him?

[CyberGhostface]

It's hard to say.

If Fett had been a more significant character then he definitely should have had a better ending than he got. It's not just that Flagg is popular, it's that he was also a very important character in the series.