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Kevin
10-27-2007, 11:24 AM
What I would like this to be is a polite argument about smoking, no one getting up in each others faces on either side of the fence.

As a non-smoker, I have always found it difficult to understand why people smoke. I've had two close relatives die from lung cancer, one that had it, recovered, and then continued t smoke after her recovery. I dont understand how people rationalize that smoking is okay to do, and thats what I'd like to find out from this thread.

My opinion on smoking, from .net: Although I am a non-smoker, I do respect a smokers right to smoke with few exceptions. That being said, the respect should be mutual. Like when someone just has to light up in a public place, especially with young children or pregnant people around. That grinds my gears, big time. Have some respect for the people around you and go to a more private location to smoke, and then I'll respect you for doing it. Smoking is bad for you, and although the heath risks and negative effects of smoking are arguable till the end of time, there needs to be a mutual respect between people who smoke and people who dont. Smoking is not going to go away, so we have to deal with it. Non-smokers are not going to suddenly cave and allow it to run rampant and have something they have no control over effect there health due to second hand-smoke. There is no way for either side to win. Unfortunately.

People who smoke due to peer pressure and for petty reasons deserve whatever end they meet at the hands of smoking. I understand that it is relaxing and a stress reliever for a lot of people, and often people who get into hard times start smoking for those reasons. Those are acceptable reasons in my books. Most others are not.

Please keep it friendly, and I look forward to the dicussion.

Odetta
10-27-2007, 12:32 PM
I for one am glad that I live in a city where smoking is essentially banned from public places (except outside). My youngest daughter has respiratory problems and I have some allergies to cigarette smoke, so it's nice to be able to breathe.
That being said, I don't care if people smoke... just don't blow it in my face.

Darkthoughts
10-27-2007, 12:47 PM
I'm a part time smoker - neither my husband nor I smoke at home, infact I only smoke if I'm at the pub. Its sort of strange that I smoke at all because, if I don't goto the pub for two weeks, then I don't smoke for two weeks...but I don't feel right having a pint without a ciggy.

I didn't smoke throughout my pregnancies, I think its selfish when people do.

Yassig
10-27-2007, 12:55 PM
I knew you'd show up in this thread Lisa. :D

I hate cigarette smoke. I am really allergic to it, I hate the smell of it, and it is slowly killing my mom as we speak. That being said, I believe that adults are allowed to make their own choices, and if smoking is yours you should have the right to light up where it doesn't harm anyone. I just don't want you blowing it my or my kid's face.

I live in California, which has some of the toughest anti-smoking laws around. In fact, one of the suburbs close by won't let you smoke outside in public anymore, or even in your car. You have to be in a house. I think that might be taking it to the extreme just a little...

alinda
10-27-2007, 12:58 PM
hummmmm, at my house, you can smoke out side but not inside.:cool:

Yassig
10-27-2007, 01:02 PM
I forgot, they are also trying to pass a law now that makes it illegal in the state of California to smoke in your car if there is a child in the car with you. Crazy, no? Maybe I just find it so because when I was growing up EVERYONE smoked.

Darkthoughts
10-27-2007, 01:07 PM
Some of the bans seem like common health and safety good sense, but some seem to cross the lines of personal freedom I think.

Telynn
10-27-2007, 01:55 PM
Or the one town in CA that is banning it from all apartments. That is going way too far. If a smoke-free apartment building is feasable, then I'm sure there would be one or two around. Like saying if pets are allowed, or adult only apartments. It shouldn't be legislated.

fernandito
10-27-2007, 03:15 PM
I live in California, which has some of the toughest anti-smoking laws around. In fact, one of the suburbs close by won't let you smoke outside in public anymore, or even in your car. You have to be in a house.

What the...what part of California do you live in?


Unfortunately I'm a smoker. I think it was inevitable, seeing as how dad and all his brothers were chain-smokers by the time they were 16. Usually, if I'm with my friends I don't hesitate to spark one up if the cravings arise, but if I'm with other folk that I'm not around much I usually ask them if they mind if I light one up.

Daghain
10-27-2007, 03:21 PM
Or the one town in CA that is banning it from all apartments. That is going way too far. If a smoke-free apartment building is feasable, then I'm sure there would be one or two around. Like saying if pets are allowed, or adult only apartments. It shouldn't be legislated.

I disagree. I live in a carriage unit condo, which means I'm over everyone's garage. The chain-smoking moron next to me (he's a moron for many reasons, not necessarily his smoking :lol:) won't smoke in his house, but smokes in the garage all winter. It makes my office stink, and it pisses me off. It's okay not to stink up his house, but okay for mine? Thanks, asshole. :angry:

And, I smoked for ten years, so don't think I'm playing the holier-than-thou card. I was probably just as rude and inconsiderate when I did smoke, which makes me hate it all the more now that I don't. I also discovered I'm allergic to cigarette smoke, which would explain why I was sick all the time when I did smoke.

I live in a state that bans smoking in public places, and I love it. Now if I could just get my freaking neighbor to quit....:lol:

Jimmy
10-27-2007, 04:35 PM
I'm a smoker, and I love smoking. What I don't love is that I'm being treated like less of a person cause of my choices.

I see no problem with segregating us from you, I just wish we got equal treatment. Smoking Only Restaurants and Bars would be nice.

For all you people that point at us and say "Cancer," just remember, the pollution from your cars is doing more damage to people than we smokers are.

Kevin
10-27-2007, 04:50 PM
I dont understand how people rationalize that smoking is okay to do, and thats what I'd like to find out from this thread.


Jimmy, can you explain why you smoke? Why you love it?

I totally agree that you shouldnt be ostracized for smoking, and that there are a lot of other health risks in this world. That doesnt stop smoking from being any less potent. It is the biggest health risk in North America right now.

flair
10-27-2007, 04:52 PM
I smoked for 13 or so years, just quit a few months ago. I smoked outside whenever possible. When I moved into a high rise I started smoking in the bathroom sometimes, but beyond that I've never smoked in my home. I smoked when I was out at the bar if they allowed it. Going out for dinner I never sat in the smoking section and would go outside if I needed to. I tried to always be respectful, but often I'd get dirty looks or some rude comments when I would stand outside to smoke. I never understood that, but people are jerks...this stands for smokers too. I don't know how many times I've had friends just light up in my home like it wasn't a big deal, and then look at me funny when I tell them they have to go outside. You should at least ask.

Around here they haven't banned smoking indoors yet. You can still light up at a bar, which is fine with me. I also didn't mind stepping outside of a bar to go have a smoke if it was banned in the place I was visiting. The funny thing is, for all the people that complain about smokey bars, I never have seen a bar that doesn't allow smoking do very well around here. The bar I used to frequent downstairs changed to non smoking right around the time I quit and has gone from being packed to being completely empty in about two months. I stopped going myself because I feel weird being the only one in the place drinking.

Banning smoking except in your home? That is just wrong. Might as well ban cars, factories, and all the other things that are spewing toxins into the air 24 hours a day. Smokers need to stand up for themselves, or the US just needs to ban smoking. No smoking in any restaurant seems like the right way to go to me. You can't wait 30-45 minutes? Sure you can.

Jimmy
10-27-2007, 05:02 PM
I dont understand how people rationalize that smoking is okay to do, and thats what I'd like to find out from this thread.


Jimmy, can you explain why you smoke? Why you love it?

I totally agree that you shouldnt be ostracized for smoking, and that there are a lot of other health risks in this world. That doesnt stop smoking from being any less potent. It is the biggest health risk in North America right now.

I smoke because it feels good to do it. Makes me think better, and I can deal with stress with much more ease.

Actually, the biggest health risk in North America right now IS stress.

As soon as the non-smoking nazis take all of us smokers out, they're going after the overweight people. Then when they're done with them, they're going after someone else. Maybe it'll be the meat eaters. Perhaps alcohol drinkers. Who knows?

Kevin
10-27-2007, 05:19 PM
If America always has a scapegoat, what was it before smoking? Or have all of us 'nazis' just sprung up all of a sudden in the 21st century? You make it sound as if we're extremists. I dont believe smoking is wrong for no reason, I've had people close to me die directly because of it. So its personal, not petty.

I have also never gotten up in somenes face and tried to make them feel guilty or 'less of a person' as you put it.

Ruki
10-27-2007, 05:57 PM
if i'm already in a good mood smoking helps me stay happy, if i'm pissy it makes things suck less. i smoke as often as possible and i try not to think of what it's doing to me. i hate it when someone acts as though me smoking a few cigarettes in their house is going to give their kid cancer or make the paint melt off their walls, and the next person to bring their kid over then tell me i can't smoke in my own house is gonna have to stop by the emergency room on their way home. i usually light up without even knowing i'm doing it which makes it hard to ask if it's okay first, but i do try to be understanding of intolerance toward smokers since i constantly wonder how people have the nerve to eat dead flesh in public as if it were acceptable behavior. i'd kill a motherfucker for bringing a hamburger into my bedroom so when i'm asked to take my cancer stick outside i restrain my homicidal urges.

Harrald
10-27-2007, 07:01 PM
I think I have to call a Godwin's law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) on this one. I had quit smoking over over 7 years. A few years ago i started again. Partly because of personal reasons and partly because I was in Europe where it was acceptable.

Now I only smoke outside my house, outside my workplace and if someone asks me to put out a smoke I will. I know from 7 years of not smoking how it can be annoying to people that don't smoke. My bride will get sinus infections if I smoke to close to her.

I still like it though, with coffee, cocktails and while walking around after dinner.






I dont understand how people rationalize that smoking is okay to do, and thats what I'd like to find out from this thread.


Jimmy, can you explain why you smoke? Why you love it?

I totally agree that you shouldnt be ostracized for smoking, and that there are a lot of other health risks in this world. That doesnt stop smoking from being any less potent. It is the biggest health risk in North America right now.

I smoke because it feels good to do it. Makes me think better, and I can deal with stress with much more ease.

Actually, the biggest health risk in North America right now IS stress.

As soon as the non-smoking nazis take all of us smokers out, they're going after the overweight people. Then when they're done with them, they're going after someone else. Maybe it'll be the meat eaters. Perhaps alcohol drinkers. Who knows?

Jean
10-27-2007, 11:39 PM
As soon as the non-smoking nazis take all of us smokers out, they're going after the overweight people. Then when they're done with them, they're going after someone else. Maybe it'll be the meat eaters. Perhaps alcohol drinkers. Who knows?
Precisely. When I smoked, I always put out my cigarette when there were non-smoking people around, but every time I knew that I satisfied their artificial need, not a real one. They wouldn't object to my smoking in their presence if such a lot of propaganda didn't tell them it was objectionable. Read the literature of before-propaganda times - how many characters have their best childhood recollection of "sitting on their father's lap" and inhaing the "sweet smoke" of his pipe or cigar? And what if I feel that the color of someone's dress is bad for my nervous system? If that red someone's wearing puts me off my foot? If someone's voice is rattling my nerves? Do I have the right to make them take off their dress or shut up? No - but only because there hasn't yet been any campaign against colors or voices. And how about car exaust? How about someone eating that hamburger and thus setting such an example to people aroud that may be 100 times worse than inhaling smoke or a remote cigarette? Where is the limit?

Kevin
10-28-2007, 12:11 AM
Ignore this stupid double post. :angry:

Kevin
10-28-2007, 12:18 AM
As soon as the non-smoking nazis take all of us smokers out, they're going after the overweight people. Then when they're done with them, they're going after someone else. Maybe it'll be the meat eaters. Perhaps alcohol drinkers. Who knows?

1. And what if I feel that the color of someone's dress is bad for my nervous system? If that red someone's wearing puts me off my foot? If someone's voice is rattling my nerves? Do I have the right to make them take off their dress or shut up? No - but only because there hasn't yet been any campaign against colors or voices.

2. And how about car exaust? How about someone eating that hamburger and thus setting such an example to people aroud that may be 100 times worse than inhaling smoke or a remote cigarette? Where is the limit?

1. Then I'd say your way to sensitive. Smoking gives you, and others around you, cancer. I bright color might give you a headache for 15 minutes. A campaign against the color red is petty. Like I said before a campaign against smoking, at least for me, is personal.

2. I dont get it. Just becaue there are other major health concerns doesnt mean we shouldnt try and deal with this one.

Jean
10-28-2007, 12:30 AM
Then I'd say your way to sensitive. Smoking gives you, and others around you, cancer. I bright color might give you a headache for 15 minutes. A campaign against the color red is petty. Like I said before a campaign against smoking, at least for me, is personal.
Fifty years ago everyone would have said campaign against smoking was petty. There's no telling what results of what scientific research the establishment will see fit to exaggerate next time. It all depends only on how much you believe in the infallibility of science and how much you're influenced by propaganda. (by the way, smoking does not give more cancer than any other aspect of modern living. Neither do I know of any positive evidence of someone's smoking giving cancer to someone who is sitting at the next table; at worst, it's another 15-minutes headache).


Just becaue there are other major health concerns doesnt mean we shouldnt try and deal with this one.
Because singling out only one seems to me hypocritical. Moreover, I consider all social mythology potentially dangerous. Especially if it leads to discriminating people on made-up grounds.

Kevin
10-28-2007, 12:49 AM
Okay Jean I understand your point, and its very hard to argue with the fact that smoking has been overhyped as an issue, but I do believe science has it right when it comes to the health consequences of smoking and second-hand smoke. Unfortunately I have been influenced by a lot of anti-smoking media, and thats part of the reason I created this group, to hear the other side of the story.

Do you know of any modern scientific data that is for smoking? I'd very much like to read it.

Also, what do you see as a solution to the problem? How can their be a balance between non-smokers and smokers?

Jean
10-28-2007, 12:56 AM
Okay Jean I understand your point, and its very hard to argue with the fact that smoking has been overhyped as an issue, but I do believe science has it right when it comes to the health consequences of smoking and second-hand smoke. Unfortunately I have been influenced by a lot of anti-smoking media, and thats part of the reason I created this group, to hear the other side of the story.

Do you know of any modern scientific data that is for smoking? I'd very much like to read it.

Also, what do you see as a solution to the problem?
I know that some research have shown that smoking enhances metabolism and blood circulation (in brain, too), and that smokers very seldom (as seldom as to be statistically convincing) become victims of Alzheimer's. I'll try to find a source for you, but the problem of any source's reliability is, unfortunately, hardly solvable.
I am afraid all that is, ultimately, a question of belief and scepticism. I am very sceptical about science, especially medicine, because its history shows that it asserts today what it fervently denied yesterday, and, - worse, - the other way round. The only solution I personally see is mutual tolerance and trying not to exaggerate, or not to aggravate our already difficult life with additional myths, especially if they are myths of The Enemy; but it's very much the solution of most human problems, and there's been, alas, not too many examples of its implementation in practice. http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/0134-bear.gif

Kevin
10-28-2007, 01:13 AM
I try to keep an open mind to things but I have a long way to go. North American culture is so media intensive and one-sided its hard not to agree with some of the stuff you hear, just because no one is arguing for the other side.

In the end I see that our opinions on an actual solution are similiar, even if our practices are not. Both sides need to be understanding for the relationship to work, as is the same with all human interaction.

To be perfectly honest, I created this thread mostly to hear from you specifically because I respected your opinion on the subject based on what you said on .net. :thumbsup:

Brice
10-28-2007, 03:08 AM
All of us have seen or heard of the risks of smoking/nicotine. For a little balance:

http://www.data-yard.net/10v2/parkinson.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/34/circulation_2001_104_773.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/10o/gums.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/30/asthma.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/10c/nicotine.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/10b/cm.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/10b/kaposi.htm
http://www.forces.org/evidence/files/brea.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/22/ncbi.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/13/tlj.htm
http://www.forces.org/evidence/carol/carol36.htm
http://www.forces.org/evidence/carol/carol16.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/10/toben.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/10/nicoplus.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/2/13/ajog.htm
http://www.forces.org/evidence/files/liars.htm#alz
http://www.data-yard.net/2/14/ajog2.htm
http://www.forces.org/evidence/files/neural.htm

*lights up*
:cool:

All that is needed is a little consideration. I try to avoid smoking around people who are bothered by it. All I ask is the same. If you do go to a restaraunt/bar where smoking is allowed do not come up to me and ask me to put it out in the smoking section or I will proceed to choke you and then give you CPR with my smoke filled lungs. :lol:

Seriously though a liitle consideration and common courtesy for others is all that's needed.

Jean
10-28-2007, 04:08 AM
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gif food for thought http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k291/mishemplushem/Facilitation/bear_thumb.gif

sarah
10-28-2007, 08:06 AM
I forgot, they are also trying to pass a law now that makes it illegal in the state of California to smoke in your car if there is a child in the car with you. Crazy, no? Maybe I just find it so because when I was growing up EVERYONE smoked.



I think that law passed and you can't smoke in your car if there is a child under the age of 18 in the car with you. California has super strict smoking laws.


I don't really care if people smoke. I don't care if they do drugs. I think people can do whatever they want to their body and it really isn't my business. It is my business if it effects me, like drinking or drugging and driving. smoking on the other hand is that persons business.

The only thing that really bothers me, is when people smoke around their kids or smoke or do drugs while pregnant. I feel that a person gives up their own rights when they decide to have a child and they should do whatever possible while pregnant to protect the health of the unborn child. With everything we now know about smoking and pregnancy, i just can't understand why a woman would risk it and smoke while pregnant.


And when you have kids you should do everything possible not to smoke around them, imo. let them grow up and decide for themselves if they want to smoke. don't force that secondhand smoke on a kid. I don't think that is fair. I think it is selfish. I think if you have kids and you smoke you shouldn't smoke in front of them.

Darkthoughts
10-28-2007, 08:14 AM
With everything we now know about smoking and pregnancy, i just can't understand why a woman would risk it and smoke while pregnant.
I agree Sarah.

My kids don't even know I smoke, because I only smoke in the pub when I'm out drinking with my friends. I don't think I'd like them to know either, as they constantly guilt trip Rob about it :P

I'm not sure how having parents who smoke, really influences a child's future decision though. I know two sisters years ago who's parents both smoked. The one sister smoked because she considered it simply something you did when you were older. But the other sister didn't (and still doesn't) precisely because her parents did and she couldn't stand it.

alinda
10-28-2007, 08:27 AM
:cool:
*sits back and enjoyes the irony*

Really people do just what they want to do in any and all circumstances.
I find it amusing that "we" are in constant struggle with such issues.
Darkthoughts, I love that nature/nurture thing you got going on in that story ( the 2 sisters) but as a parent let me warn you in my experience, my kids knew ( know) EVERYTHING weither I told them or not....they're just so intuitive about what we attempt to hide from them ( I love kids) and believe that when we are born we know more (possibly all ) there is to know, and spend our lives forgetting and being "taught" all manner of lies. The habits and adictions we aquire in an attempt to find "happiness" in a material world when were such spiritual creatures is redundant.

:cool:

Darkthoughts
10-28-2007, 08:35 AM
but as a parent let me warn you in my experience, my kids knew ( know) EVERYTHING weither I told them or not....
:D Something very amusing happened yesterday actually. I was at the pub and my husband bought our eldest along (9 years old) to watch a football match. I sneaked outside (we have the smoking ban in the UK nowtoo) for a smoke - it was just me and one other guy out there.

Sam came out so I put the cig in the ashtray before he saw. In the middle of saying something he looked at this cigarette in the ashtray...then at the guy smoking...then at the cigarette...then at me..."Hmmmm...who's cigarette is that?" he asks me - "Oh Paul (a friend of ours) went in and left it there" I said, Sam chuckled and scrunched the ciggie out and into pieces "Well, he can't have it now!" he laughs.

I was gutted - I was really enjoying that smoke - the guy next to me couldn't stop laughing :lol:

alinda
10-28-2007, 08:47 AM
Thanks for that affirmation DT, I see what you mean, Got to love the way kids handle the situations we put ourselves in!! :clap: funny!!

Wuducynn
10-28-2007, 09:31 AM
I'm going to chime in where I come out in the smoking issue and leave it at that because I don't view this site as a place to come and debate over this kind of thing but to talk about the Dark Tower series.
For me I am appalled at the banning of smoking across the country in a nation that used to consider itself free. Free meaning if a business wants to allow smoking it was THEIR business or a person wants to smoke in their home it was THEIR business.
Its not the governments place to be telling folk what they should or should not be doing with their bodies, that goes with pregnancies, drugs (including nicotine and alcohol), and sex.
If I don't want to work in a place that has smoking, no one is forcing me to be employed there, nor am I forced to go into an establishment that allows smoking, nor are my children. I and I alone am responsible for my children, not the government nor would I want a bunch of bureacrats watching out for my kids.
The anti-smoking crusade is an hysteria and has grown worse and worse over the years. When I grew up in the 70's and 80's there were plenty of restaurants that allowed smoking and I could choose not to go in there even as a kid (imagine that I was smart enough to decide for myself where I wanted to go!). Most places were perfectly well ventilated so it wasn't a problem.
I don't buy into this crap of "oh even a little bit of a second hand smoke does permanent damage" that I've heard all over the place. Second hand smoke is NOT the killer that some make it out to be.
Someone above mentioned that its going the way where soon fatty foods and sugary foods will be banned etc etc and yep thats the truth, more nanny government. Its happening in NYC where the city government banned trans-fats from restaurants. Oh thank you NYC government I'm sure its YOUR business to protect everyone depending on the fad "bad boy" dietary thing of the moment.

Darkthoughts
10-28-2007, 09:36 AM
I'm going to chime in where I come out in the smoking issue and leave it at that because I don't view this site as a place to come and debate over this kind of thing but to talk about the Dark Tower series...

...and my sado-masochistic relationship with Monte :P

alinda
10-28-2007, 09:38 AM
oh boy!! :rock: I am so happy to have met you all!!
Y'all really make me smile!! hee!

Wuducynn
10-28-2007, 09:52 AM
I'm going to chime in where I come out in the smoking issue and leave it at that because I don't view this site as a place to come and debate over this kind of thing but to talk about the Dark Tower series...

...and my sado-masochistic relationship with Monte :P

That goes without saying.

sarajean
10-28-2007, 12:29 PM
okay, so...i'm a smoker. i smoke outside, i never smoke around my kids. that being said...

all of the testing that has been done on the effects of second hand smoke were done where the tip of a cigarette was less than 6 inches away from the device doing the reading, not with smoke dispersed through a room or outside.

what I really hate is when i'm outside in a designated smoking area and someone walks by and gives a fake little cough and a dirty look. it really makes me want to punch someone, and i'm not normally an angry person in real life.

ZoNeSeeK
10-28-2007, 05:40 PM
What I would like this to be is a polite argument about smoking, no one getting up in each others faces on either side of the fence.

As a non-smoker, I have always found it difficult to understand why people smoke. I've had two close relatives die from lung cancer, one that had it, recovered, and then continued t smoke after her recovery. I dont understand how people rationalize that smoking is okay to do, and thats what I'd like to find out from this thread.

My opinion on smoking, from .net: Although I am a non-smoker, I do respect a smokers right to smoke with few exceptions. That being said, the respect should be mutual. Like when someone just has to light up in a public place, especially with young children or pregnant people around. That grinds my gears, big time. Have some respect for the people around you and go to a more private location to smoke, and then I'll respect you for doing it. Smoking is bad for you, and although the heath risks and negative effects of smoking are arguable till the end of time, there needs to be a mutual respect between people who smoke and people who dont. Smoking is not going to go away, so we have to deal with it. Non-smokers are not going to suddenly cave and allow it to run rampant and have something they have no control over effect there health due to second hand-smoke. There is no way for either side to win. Unfortunately.

People who smoke due to peer pressure and for petty reasons deserve whatever end they meet at the hands of smoking. I understand that it is relaxing and a stress reliever for a lot of people, and often people who get into hard times start smoking for those reasons. Those are acceptable reasons in my books. Most others are not.

Please keep it friendly, and I look forward to the dicussion.

People smoke because they are addicted to Nicotine, and nicotine is highly physically addictive (i.e. you will experience physical symptoms if you stop and the urge to maintain the addiction is almost overwhelming), and not for any other reason. When you first smoke, Nicotine receptors in your brain develop. Their sole job is to respond to nicotine levels in your bloodstream and if the levels are low or absent, then they create effects and sensations to make it enjoyable to light up and create that 'craving' sensation.

Smoking is also psychological addictive in the form of habitual behaviour, which is closely linked with the physical addiction side of things - i.e. You train your body into when to expect to receive nicotine. Like what Lisa was saying about only smoking at the Pub. Her brain knows that when she is sitting in the pub with a beer she will soon feed her body nicotine, so the receptors light up and go crazy, creating the urge response to smoke. This probably doesn't happen to her at home because the triggers are not there. This is the basis behind everyone's smoking patterns and is incredibly difficult to break.

This is why people keep smoking when they know its bad for them - sating an addiction is always pleasurable. Someone who has never smoked will never be able to understand what this feels like - and thats a good thing, not a bad thing :)

I quit smoking over a year ago and had smoked for about 9 years and it wasn't easy but it definitely wasn't as hard as previous times or as hard as I thought it was going to be, and I think there's a few things that definitely helped:

- Find someone to quit with. The support can be extremely helpful as you don't want to let the other down. But always realise that if they crack its not an excuse for you to :)

- Plan ahead - make the decision to stop smoking a couple of months before your quit date. Say now at the end of October, you could aim to quit on Jan 1st. This gives you some time to mentally prepare for the trial ahead. Keep telling yourself that this is the day you're quitting and commit to the decision.

- If you smoke at work, try and kick this before your full quit date. If you are used to being a non-smoker during the work day, this will help alot when you quit altogether as at least your work-time isn't affected by the quitting symptoms as you're body is already used to not smoking at work.

- Don't try to be a hero, use a quitting aid. Some people can handle cold turkey but the success rates of people using aids as opposed to those not using them speak for themselves. If you use an aid you have a higher chance of staying off the smokes.

- Try and break your trigger-habits as soon as you can. Avoiding drinking coffee or alcohol or going to the pub or parties because this triggers a craving won't help as you'll have to deal with it eventually. Its much easier to nip it in the bud as soon as possible and you'll be surprised how quickly (albeit difficult) the habbit will change.

The reasons why people take up smoking are almost negligible - its the addictive properties that keep people smoking which is why Big Tobacco is extremely responsible for their product - Nicotine should be a banned substance and it baffles me as to why its not.

And as a smoker I completely agreed with banning smoking from public places unless they have designated outside areas, which is fine (it happened about 2 years ago over here). Any kind of smoke is harmful to breathe in and its a basic right to work and go about your day in public without breathing in smoke. And at the end of the day, its a habit that will be phased out eventually as it serves no purpose and the only reason people smoke is because they are addicted. Its the government's job to set what is publically acceptable - its about setting trends, not "big brothering" your life - the health and wellbeing of the general population and the standards that are deemed acceptable to maintain the health and wellbeing of the general population is more important than being able to smoke inside a shopping mall. I don't care if passive smoking is harmful or not - its fucking irritating getting facefulls of cigarette smoke in ANY situation.

Some people are better at making informed decisions regarding their health and wellbing of themselves and their children than others. Whether this makes it "their fault" is a meritocratic viewpoint and completely irrelevant - why should companies sell products that are harmful to people and are marketed in a way that take advantage of a situation where less educated people with poorer decision making abilities are targetted? Absolutely the government should intervene - it is their job to ensure a healthy, functioning society - and why would they want to eventually pay through a public health system for the heart bypass surgery caused by smoking or obesity? Its not as simple as saying "people can make their own decision" - of course they can, but when you have a nation of fatties dying from heart disease then maybe this aint such a good avenue to go down.

You think US laws are getting tight at the moment? Look at what our cigarette packets look like:

http://www.health.gov.au/internet/wcms/publishing.nsf/Content/health-pubhlth-strateg-drugs-tobacco-warning-packs-A.htm

Erin
10-28-2007, 06:23 PM
Holy cow...that gangrene picture....:gag:

I'm a non-smoker and always have been. I grew up with a smoking father and it just turned me off from it. But I really have no problems with smokers at all.

Anyways, I'm all for banning smoking in public buildings, as long as the smokers are compensated as well (have adequate outdoor facilities or smoking rooms like in airports). As for these newer laws banning smoking in private places like apartments and cars? That's crazy. A person should be allowed to do whatever they want in their homes or cars.

All that being said, just like I hate rude people of all types, I don't like rude smokers. Like this one time, I was giving my ex-boyfriend and his co-worker a ride home from work in my car. As we're driving along, I start to smell something, I look in the rear-view mirror and the guy is smoking in my car, with the windows rolled up, ashing in my cupholder! I freaked the hell out. It took a good 5 minutes for my boyfriend to convince me not to kick him out on the side of the road and make him walk the rest of the way home.

ZoNeSeeK
10-28-2007, 06:39 PM
I'll add that I don't agree with banning any behaviour from private spaces - people can do what they want in their own privacy. If you're sharing a public space though, it just comes down to courtesy ;P

While driving though is a bit of a different area - I still think smoking while driving poses some form of hazard to other drivers on the road. People generally don't calmly pull over if the burning end of their smoke lands next to their balls. :) But statistically there doesn't seem to be much evidence to suggest this is a real public danger so people can do what they want in their cars. Jury is out on the smoking with kids in the car thing - you can't dictate what people do around their kids while at home so I'm not sure how effective it would be trying to enforce something like that.

People shouldnt fucking do it anyway.

Yassig
10-28-2007, 07:14 PM
Anyways, I'm all for banning smoking in public buildings, as long as the smokers are compensated as well (have adequate outdoor facilities or smoking rooms like in airports).
I'm sorry to find the humor in this statement, and maybe it's different at airports that I have not been to, but I always find it mildly amusing when I pass by the smoking section in an airport. It's a glass-surrounded box, filled to the brim with the poor smokers, with a haze at the top of the room while everyone sucks down their nicotine fix. I always feel like they're put on display or something. Maybe that's just me, speaking as a non-smoker. I just always think of a zoo exhibit as I pass by...

Erin
10-28-2007, 08:09 PM
True, it makes no sense why the walls have to be clear. Paint 'em.

Brice
10-29-2007, 02:31 AM
1.People smoke because they are addicted to Nicotine, and nicotine is highly physically addictive (i.e. you will experience physical symptoms if you stop and the urge to maintain the addiction is almost overwhelming), and not for any other reason. I've gotta' disagree with the idea that addiction is the only reason people smoke. I could perhaps agree it is the primary reason usually.



2.When you first smoke, Nicotine receptors in your brain develop. Their sole job is to respond to nicotine levels in your bloodstream and if the levels are low or absent, then they create effects and sensations to make it enjoyable to light up and create that 'craving' sensation.

Actually, you have nicotinic receptors in your brain (and also throughout various parts of your body) from birth. You have what are called acetylcholine receptors which regulate levels of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. These receptors also have other affinities and are classified by those. You have both muscarinic and nicotinic acetylcholine receptors. We can ignore the muscarinic ones for now, as they are not really relevant to this. A secondary or perhaps tertiary affinity of the nicotinic receptors is of course to nicotine and it's ability to bind to them. This was really just to show that you do not develop nicotine receptors when you begin smoking. Everyone (all mammals actually) has/have them naturally from birth.

Now, you're advice against smoking I'd have to agree with up until the point of government intervention. While there is some medically legitimate and sound evidence that smoking does have some health benefits the risks generally appear to outweigh those I would say.

Darkthoughts
10-29-2007, 02:37 AM
Nicotine should be a banned substance and it baffles me as to why its not.
It puzzles me too.

Brice
10-29-2007, 02:38 AM
Nicotine should be a banned substance and it baffles me as to why its not.
It puzzles me too.

Because prohibition never works.

Storyslinger
10-29-2007, 04:48 AM
I personally am not a smoker, but know many who do. I agree that it should be banned, but like Brice said, it would never work. Also, I think that even with their sections to smoke in, they are still being displayed like Yassig said

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 06:16 AM
If America always has a scapegoat, what was it before smoking? Or have all of us 'nazis' just sprung up all of a sudden in the 21st century? You make it sound as if we're extremists. I dont believe smoking is wrong for no reason, I've had people close to me die directly because of it. So its personal, not petty.

I have also never gotten up in somenes face and tried to make them feel guilty or 'less of a person' as you put it.

Ok, in no particular order...

AMERICA'S SCAPEGOATS
African Americans
Women
The Irish
Asians
Mexicans
Religious groups
Hippies
Homosexuals
Teenagers
Musicians
Movies
Guns
Overweight people

That's just some of the scapegoats. Whenever I'm somewhere OUTSIDE, and I'm told that I can't smoke there, the first thing that pops up in my head is, "Go to the back of the bus, ni**er."

The last time I was told to smoke in the "Smoking Area" outside a mall, I looked over at it, and saw that the unenclosed bench was only 3 feet from where I stood. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Not being able to work for a company, because I smoke is extremism on the non-smokers part. Having to cross the street to smoke during my break is extremism.

I've had several people approach me on the street to explain to me that my smoking is bad for me, and them. I won't mention here what I say or do to them, as this thread is supposed to be friendly.

I've known several people that have died i automobile accidents. Do I try and push people to stop driving, even though it's a risk on their, and others' health?

NO.

And neither should you.

(Also, just want to give props to Jean, Brice and All Hail, well said gentlemen)

Matt
10-29-2007, 06:31 AM
I'm a smoker and keep it away folks just like when I'm gassy, I do my best to fart in private. :lol:

However, I do not think it should be regulated and the second hand smoke thing is a joke. No one has ever gotten sick that way.

You inhale more carcinogens walking behind someones car crossing the street than you would from second had smoke exposure.

With that being said, its horrible for my health and I really do need to quit.

Yassig
10-29-2007, 06:38 AM
However, I do not think it should be regulated and the second hand smoke thing is a joke. No one has ever gotten sick that way.

I beg to differ. I had chronic bronchitis and was always in and out of the hospital while I lived in a house with a smoker. When I moved to live with another parent, my symptoms "all of a sudden" completely disappeared and I became a normal functioning person again. I don't know much about the lung damage/cancer debate from 2nd hand smoke, but I can tell you that it severely affected my health for many years.

Odetta
10-29-2007, 06:41 AM
I believe our cigarette packs have very similar pictures to your is Australia, ZoNe!

I would never say anything about cancer to someone who smokes... like you haven't already heard it anyhow. Besides, it's your choice to smoke, so do what you want.

I would NEVER tell someone to stop smoking in their own home around my children! It's your house.... I would ask you to smoke outside of my home, but your castle is your castle.


I think that second hand smoke CAN be a problem. For example, I know 2 children who had parents who smoked the kids' whole lives and both kids had extremely aggressive asthma (sp) and allergies. The kids even told me that the doctors insisted that the parents smoke outside the house rather than in.
As for walking down the street next to a patio where people are smoking, I don't think the second hand smoke will do much at all, but prolonged exposure could have an effect on some people.

Matt
10-29-2007, 06:46 AM
Very true Yassig.

I should have said "second hand smoke causes cancer" is a joke. :lol:

I am sure that people with a proclivity towards respiratory stuff do not mix well with people who smoke in any cases.

Storyslinger
10-29-2007, 07:02 AM
Again, I'm not for excluding anyone, It is your own choice.

Just wanted to clear that up

Darkthoughts
10-29-2007, 07:27 AM
Nicotine should be a banned substance and it baffles me as to why its not.
It puzzles me too.

Because prohibition never works.

True, though I meant it from the perspective of - how is it decided something like cannabis is illegal, but niccotine isn't.

Jean
10-29-2007, 07:47 AM
because cannabis ruins your brain, and nicotine doesn't (if anything, it enhances your brain's work, as some research has shown). It is bad for health, but please let's not exaggerate - it doesn't kill you directly any more than any other substance, barring solely natural (non-chemical) vitamines. If you want to ban nicotine, you might as well ban sugar (sweet death), salt (white death), conservants, colorants, saturated fats etc etc.

Darkthoughts
10-29-2007, 07:50 AM
Ok, not nicotine in itself but cigarettes - they ruin your lungs etc, so why aren't they banned?

Matt
10-29-2007, 08:02 AM
I'm not sure "pot smoking" ruins your brain :lol:

But that might be another thread.

Jean
10-29-2007, 08:19 AM
Ok, not nicotine in itself but cigarettes - they ruin your lungs etc, so why aren't they banned?
the stuff I listed above ruins all your systems, why do we single out lungs? (Although the answer seems obvious, and I completely agree with Jimmy here: only because a scapegoat is needed.)

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 08:22 AM
because cannabis ruins your brain


Since when? Why wasn't I informed of this? I should've gotten the memo.

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 08:23 AM
Ok, not nicotine in itself but cigarettes - they ruin your lungs etc, so why aren't they banned?
the stuff I listed above ruins all your systems, why do we single out lungs? (Although the answer seems obvious, and I completely agree with Jimmy here: only because a scapegoat is needed.)

The sun damages our cells. We should get rid of it, pronto.

Jean
10-29-2007, 08:26 AM
because cannabis ruins your brain


Since when? Why wasn't I informed of this? I should've gotten the memo.
Since I needed that "fact" as an argument, of course. You see, it's all the same as what we've already been talking about (namely, Kevin and me at the first page of this thread). I've been raised within a culture where all kinds of drugs are considered evil, and I've been fed lots of "scientific", "medical" evidence, as well as "statistics", showing very convincingly that yes, cannabis does kill brain cells. I have no idea whether or not it really does, just like nobody who has been fed the "information" about the horrible danger of smoking has any idea of how reliable it is.




Ok, not nicotine in itself but cigarettes - they ruin your lungs etc, so why aren't they banned?
the stuff I listed above ruins all your systems, why do we single out lungs? (Although the answer seems obvious, and I completely agree with Jimmy here: only because a scapegoat is needed.)

The sun damages our cells. We should get rid of it, pronto.
Precisely. Likewise, not being born is the best (and the only) guarantee against premature, or any other, death.

Matt
10-29-2007, 08:31 AM
And on that last point, we totally agree.

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 08:32 AM
because cannabis ruins your brain


Since when? Why wasn't I informed of this? I should've gotten the memo.
Since I needed that "fact" as an argument, of course. You see, it's all the same as what we've already been talking about. I've been raised within a culture where all kinds of drugs are considered evil, and I've been fed lots of "scientific", "medical" evidence, as well as "statistics", showing very convincingly that yes, cannabis does kill brain cells. I have no idea whether or not it really does, just like nobody who has been fed the "information" about the horrible danger of smoking has any idea of how reliable it is.




Ok, not nicotine in itself but cigarettes - they ruin your lungs etc, so why aren't they banned?
the stuff I listed above ruins all your systems, why do we single out lungs? (Although the answer seems obvious, and I completely agree with Jimmy here: only because a scapegoat is needed.)

The sun damages our cells. We should get rid of it, pronto.
Precisely. Likewise, not being born is the best (and the only) guarantee against premature, or any other, death.

Brain cells grow back though.

I'm afraid of the future where haircuts are illegal because it infringes upon the rights of follicles to grow freely. :scared:

I'm even more afraid of ungroomed pubic regions in the future. :scared: :scared: :scared:

Jean
10-29-2007, 08:36 AM
And on that last point, we totally agree.
you see, I just thought that it isn't even as funny as it appears. All that exaggerated concern about one's health at the expense of some traditional joys of life, making people avoid the dangers human living abounds in, ultimately leads to the peace and hygiene of a good modern crematorium. Not being born, or being already dead, is really the best way to avoid lung cancer, it's much more radical than non-smoking or even living in a rural area.

Ruki
10-29-2007, 08:36 AM
I've been raised within a culture where all kinds of drugs are considered evil, and I've been fed lots of "scientific", "medical" evidence, as well as "statistics", showing very convincingly that yes, cannabis does kill brain cells.

somebody's been lying to you :( marijuana actually helps with the development of new brain cells.

and hey this one is actually sorta on-topic :) cigarette smokers who also smoke weed are less likely to end up with cancer than those who don't smoke pot :rock:

Matt
10-29-2007, 08:37 AM
So what do you guys think? This is the "great smoking debate" but do we need a separate conversation for smoking pot?

Kevin
10-29-2007, 08:39 AM
I have also never gotten up in somenes face and tried to make them feel guilty or 'less of a person' as you put it.

I've known several people that have died i automobile accidents. Do I try and push people to stop driving, even though it's a risk on their, and others' health?

NO.

And neither should you.

I think I've been pretty clear that I dont push people to not smoke, and I dont think anyone in this thread has either. I want to learn more about both sides of the argument, hence the thread.

Matt, I think we can include pot in this discussion. Would you like me to change the blurb at the start?

Sorry this has been edited so many times, I'm tired and I cant seem to get my thoughts across all in one go. :(

Jean
10-29-2007, 08:40 AM
So what do you guys think? This is the "great smoking debate" but do we need a separate conversation for smoking pot?

If this conversation has to take place, please let it be elsewhere. These are different subjects.



I've been raised within a culture where all kinds of drugs are considered evil, and I've been fed lots of "scientific", "medical" evidence, as well as "statistics", showing very convincingly that yes, cannabis does kill brain cells.

somebody's been lying to you :( marijuana actually helps with the development of new brain cells.
This is exactly the point I've been trying to make. Somebody has been lying to me about cannabis, and somebody else has been lying to my highly esteemed opponents about the dangers of smoking.

Matt
10-29-2007, 08:43 AM
Matt, I think we can include pot in this discussion. Would you like me to change the blurb at the start?



If this conversation has to take place, please let it be elsewhere. These are different subjects.

Hmmmm...:orely:

:lol:

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 08:44 AM
I would suggest a seperate thread for pot. They're 2 completely different animals.

Kevin
10-29-2007, 08:48 AM
A new thread is fine with me, I'm just trying to conserve some space. They are two different issues though, they should probably be seperated. :)

Matt
10-29-2007, 08:49 AM
Sounds good to me, we'll stay on topic in here then and if anyone would like to discuss out favorite green monster, feel free to get it going. :rock:

we could change the name it to mark it as a cig conversation.

Kevin
10-29-2007, 08:50 AM
Somebody has been lying to me about cannabis, and somebody else has been lying to my highly esteemed opponents about the dangers of smoking.

Compliments from Jean, O happy day! :onfire:

Sounds good matt, a more specific name would be helpful to differentiate between the two.

Jean
10-29-2007, 08:53 AM
...everybody is laughing at humble old bears.......

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 08:54 AM
...everybody is laughing at humble old bears.......

Not true. We're all friends here, are we not?

Kevin
10-29-2007, 08:58 AM
...everybody is laughing at humble old bears.......

Not true. We're all friends here, are we not?

Definitely. :rose:

Matt
10-29-2007, 08:59 AM
I actually totally agree with Jean. We have people that are worried about how much second hand smoke they are sucking up while at the same time living life in ways that are actually very dangerous.

I think its all about moderation. You can overdo anything and even too much food and water can kill you.

Jean
10-29-2007, 09:05 AM
...everybody is laughing at humble old bears.......

Not true. We're all friends here, are we not?

Definitely. :rose:

http://www.thedarktower.org/gallery/data/536/BEAR-HUG01.jpg


I actually totally agree with Jean. We have people that are worried about how much second hand smoke they are sucking up while at the same time living life in ways that are actually very dangerous.

I think its all about moderation. You can overdo anything and even too much food and water can kill you.
Exactly. It reminds me - here's something I posted at .net almost two years ago:

Non-smoking is the easiest way to fool yourself into believing that everything is all right with your lifestyle. It reminds me of a nice woman, friend of mine: when she moved to Paris with her daughter (11 years old at the time), I came to see them sometimes. They lived in the center of the city (with not a blade of grass around), in a tiny studio flat, which, with a microwave, a tape-recorder, a TV, a fridge, an electric stove and a computer was an electromagnetic field incarnate; they ate fast-food shit reheated in the microwave; the girl spent all of her time either in that appartment or at school or on her way there and back through the polluted town; due to their temperaments, they kept shouting all the time (with the TV on, too) so loud that my ears were ringing… But you couldn’t smoke in the appartment. It’s a fetish.

cozener
10-29-2007, 09:25 AM
I don't smoke cigarettes. When I was single I would not date women that smoked. I'd never allow anyone to smoke inside of my house and or my car. I'm all for any legistlation that limits smoking to the homes of smokers and outside. Smoking in a car when your kid is in there is pretty much child abuse if you ask me. I know its easy to do. I know how most of us were raised. But now that we know the dangers of second hand smoke there's just no excuse for it.

That said, I'm not completely pure. I do, on occasion have a cigar, pipe, or arguila but we're talking maybe 3 times in a year. I also have a thing for robust middle aged ladies in evening dresses smoking cigarettes out of foot long cigarette holders...preferably reclining on couches or assorted fluffy pillows.


:D

Kevin
10-29-2007, 09:31 AM
I dont think that many retrictions are necesarry, and as Jean has pointed out...do you trust the sources that say second-hand smoke is bad for you?

Wuducynn
10-29-2007, 09:49 AM
Not true. We're all friends here, are we not?

Nope, I hate all you fuckers. Especially Jean, Cozener and Jon.

Jimmy
10-29-2007, 10:14 AM
Not true. We're all friends here, are we not?

Nope, I hate all you fuckers. Especially Jean, Cozener and Jon.

Aww, that's sweet. :huglove:

Matt
10-29-2007, 10:15 AM
I dont think that many retrictions are necesarry, and as Jean has pointed out...do you trust the sources that say second-hand smoke is bad for you?

I sure don't, but I don't smoke around my kids anyway. :fairy:

Darkthoughts
10-29-2007, 03:33 PM
Ok, not nicotine in itself but cigarettes - they ruin your lungs etc, so why aren't they banned?
the stuff I listed above ruins all your systems, why do we single out lungs? (Although the answer seems obvious, and I completely agree with Jimmy here: only because a scapegoat is needed.)
I think your misunderstanding the context - I was pointing out the irony - when I originally asked "Why are cigarettes legal when pot is illegal?" because I don't see the logic in it. You then retorted Jean, that pot ruins your brain which is why I pointed out that cigarettes ruin vital organs too.


The sun damages our cells. We should get rid of it, pronto.
However, thats completely beyond our control, whereas a personal decision to smoke isn't. Why all the denial anyway? I smoke and I freely admit its bad for me. I don't feel I'm being made a scapegoat - I see it as my choice, whilst the ban (which in the UK basically just means pubs, restaurants and the workplace) gives people who don't smoke an option to come out and enjoy themselves without going home stinking like an ashtray.

cozener
10-29-2007, 06:45 PM
Not true. We're all friends here, are we not?

Nope, I hate all you fuckers. Especially Jean, Cozener and Jon. You're just pissed because I turned you on when I started talking about robust middle aged women.

And speaking of robust women, why is there no Sylvia thread here? Dammit man, I can't do everything!

Daghain
10-29-2007, 07:13 PM
:rofl:

OchrisO
10-29-2007, 09:09 PM
I think if people can smoke cigarettes around me I should be able to smoke the chronic around them.

Jean
10-29-2007, 11:23 PM
Darkthoughts: it's just my personal flaw that I see the brain as principally, qualitatively different from any other organ, and the only one I would take any pains trying to keep in good order.

Brice
10-29-2007, 11:24 PM
I think if people can smoke cigarettes around me I should be able to smoke the chronic around them.


I can accept that condition. :thumbsup:

I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to light a bong if a sign says smoking area. :lol: Hell, I'll even help you.

Jimmy
10-30-2007, 06:51 AM
Darkthoughts Said
However, thats completely beyond our control, whereas a personal decision to smoke isn't. Why all the denial anyway? I smoke and I freely admit its bad for me. I don't feel I'm being made a scapegoat - I see it as my choice, whilst the ban (which in the UK basically just means pubs, restaurants and the workplace) gives people who don't smoke an option to come out and enjoy themselves without going home stinking like an ashtray.

It's not denial, I just refuse to let others and the media shame me into conforming to what they find to be acceptable behavior. I live how I choose to, not because of addiction, but by choice. I choose to smoke, I choose to never quit, and I choose to not feel bad about myself because people tell me to.

Odetta
10-30-2007, 06:54 AM
I don't think it's "unacceptable behavior". Do you think most people see it as that extreme?

Jimmy
10-30-2007, 07:01 AM
I don't think it's "unacceptable behavior". Do you think most people see it as that extreme?

If non-smokers feel that they have a right to walk up to smokers in the street and berate them for smoking, I would say that they feel it's unacceptable behavior.

The only time I've ever seen a stranger walk up to another stranger and say something they did was wrong, was when someone was beating their kids at a supermarket. I'm not sure there's a correlation, but it's enough in my mind to see a comparison.

cozener
10-30-2007, 08:26 AM
I dont think that many retrictions are necesarry, and as Jean has pointed out...do you trust the sources that say second-hand smoke is bad for you?Yes...I do. Totally.



I don't think it's "unacceptable behavior". Do you think most people see it as that extreme?

If non-smokers feel that they have a right to walk up to smokers in the street and berate them for smoking, I would say that they feel it's unacceptable behavior.

The only time I've ever seen a stranger walk up to another stranger and say something they did was wrong, was when someone was beating their kids at a supermarket. I'm not sure there's a correlation, but it's enough in my mind to see a comparison.I've always been kinda harsh on smoking but even I would never walk up to a complete stranger and give him a piece of my mind about what he's doing to his own lungs. In fact, even though I feel that smoking in a car with children is child abuse I wouldn't say anything about that either. It isn't against the law. Only in circumstances where I feel that I have a legal right to say something will I actually do so...and maybe not even then if the behavior isn't obtrusive to me and mine.

Jean
10-30-2007, 11:23 AM
I don't think it's "unacceptable behavior". Do you think most people see it as that extreme?

If non-smokers feel that they have a right to walk up to smokers in the street and berate them for smoking, I would say that they feel it's unacceptable behavior.
I have to add that very often they behave so very - I don't know what the right word is - complacent? Self-righteuos? I remember two years ago in Paris I was in a crêperie, sitting in a smoking area, and as soon as I lit my cigarette, an elderly lady leaned to me from the table she shared with her friends, and demanded - not asked! - that I put it out. I did, because I never fight with elderly ladies, but it was preposterous; and the worst was that, judging by her indignant glare, it never even crossed her mind that she wasn't exercising any Sacred Right or Duty.

Wuducynn
10-30-2007, 11:29 AM
I have to add that very often they behave so very - I don't know what the right word is - complacent? Self-righteuos? I remember two years ago in Paris I was in a crêperie, sitting in a smoking area, and as soon as I lit my cigarette, an elderly lady leaned to me from the table she shared with her friends, and demanded - not asked! - that I put it out. I did, because I never fight with elderly ladies, but it was preposterous; and the worst was that, judging by her indignant glare, it never even crossed her mind that she wasn't exercising any Sacred Right or Duty.

You should have just taken a big drag and blown a big cloud in her face without saying a word and then smiled sweetly at her.

Matt
10-30-2007, 11:29 AM
For me, I am the only smoker where I work. It is very frowned upon <_<

I have to walk about a 1/2 mile to find a place that is "not around the bank" to smoke and the funny part is that I probably get more exercise (because of that) than anyone here. :lol:

at my work I mean

Ikilledthecrimsonking
10-30-2007, 11:32 AM
i dont care if people know i smoke, its a great stress reliver even if its bad for your health. I wish i didnt smoke most days but others i have to.

ZoNeSeeK
10-30-2007, 09:11 PM
Brain cells grow back though.


Neurogensis is extremely slow in adults (for a long time it was thought that the nervous system cannot regenerate itself at all) - the brain does continue to develop neurons in adults in order to aid memory function. Adult Neurogenesis isn't capable of repairing any significant level of damage, however.

Brice
10-30-2007, 09:18 PM
Brain cells grow back though.


Neurogensis is extremely slow in adults (for a long time it was thought that the nervous system cannot regenerate itself at all) - the brain does continue to develop neurons in adults in order to aid memory function. Adult Neurogenesis isn't capable of repairing any significant level of damage, however.

Luckily, there is some evidence to suggest that marijuana might actually stimulate neurogenesis as opposed to what was previously thought.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8155.html

http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/115/11/3104

http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/115/11/3104?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=zhang&fulltext=marijuana&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

ZoNeSeeK
10-30-2007, 09:43 PM
Bans on passive smoking are driven from a business and public liability point of view, not necessarily a medical point of view as there probably hasn't been enough research and qualified testing to categorically state anything about passive smoking as a medical risk - there is plenty of pollutants already in the air to begin with - but in a way that is the point. Industry and business are limited to what they can pump into a public place, so we should be too.

On a side note, I enjoy passive smoking when I'm drinking :) But not first thing in the morning walking to work.

The medical profession is like a wildcard to the way business deal with possible liability - if any medical link can be drawn between someone who has worked in a smoky bar for ten years and has developed a respiratory problem means the employer is liable in some sense as providing a safe place for employees to work is their responsibility. It behaves like the stock market - once a possible threat emerges, it snowballs. Whether one can say passive smoking categorically causes damage is irrelevant - whether passive smoking could possibly harm even one employee is all entities (employers and government) subject to liabillity claims care about. It could be beaurocratic bullshit, it could be purely for public health, but at the end of the day most of us live in a democratic society and there are more non smokers than smokers (in my country at least), so the comfort of the majority is more important.

Back to "first" hand smoke -

If you enjoy it, thats great, I'll sit with you in an outside beer garden and passive smoke along with you. But if you enjoy it, at least be realistic about the harmful effects and acknowledge that no, there are no realistic benefits from smoking Malrboro's and that, over time, you are damaging your respiratory and vascular systems. It is medically proven that 90% of Lung Cancer cases in men are directly caused by the harmful chemicals in cigarettes, and 80% of cases in women. This is not an idea, or someone's opinion, but is statistical fact from the medical profession that can be refuted just as much as an appendix diagnoses or on how antibiotics work.

I dont have a problem with smokers or people smoking (as long as there's ventilation :P) whatsoever - but trying to justify anything thats harmful to you on grounds other than "I enjoy it" is delusional. It might be a shitty thing to realise that you're going to have to kick the habit or most likely die from it (well I found it depressing anyway), but its the bottom line.

ZoNeSeeK
10-30-2007, 10:13 PM
Brain cells grow back though.


Neurogensis is extremely slow in adults (for a long time it was thought that the nervous system cannot regenerate itself at all) - the brain does continue to develop neurons in adults in order to aid memory function. Adult Neurogenesis isn't capable of repairing any significant level of damage, however.

Luckily, there is some evidence to suggest that marijuana might actually stimulate neurogenesis as opposed to what was previously thought.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn8155.html

http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/115/11/3104

http://www.jci.org/cgi/content/full/115/11/3104?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&author1=zhang&fulltext=marijuana&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

But its an overall picture that you need to take into account. Pure alcohol is the antivenine for certain snake venom in Far North Queensland, but this plus doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the negative effects of alcohol abuse. I don't think there is enough cohesive knowledge about the effects of cannabinoids as a whole for anyone to make an informed choice.

I do agree with much more funding going into drug research and there will probably be other interesting results, especially in regards to drugs like Marijuana and Cocaine which are not synthetic and are metabolised by people quickly.

Jean
10-30-2007, 10:54 PM
I have to add that very often they behave so very - I don't know what the right word is - complacent? Self-righteuos? I remember two years ago in Paris I was in a crêperie, sitting in a smoking area, and as soon as I lit my cigarette, an elderly lady leaned to me from the table she shared with her friends, and demanded - not asked! - that I put it out. I did, because I never fight with elderly ladies, but it was preposterous; and the worst was that, judging by her indignant glare, it never even crossed her mind that she wasn't exercising any Sacred Right or Duty.

You should have just taken a big drag and blown a big cloud in her face without saying a word and then smiled sweetly at her.
Yes, I should have. And I would have, had she been at least ten years younger.

Darkthoughts
10-31-2007, 02:21 AM
For Jean and Jimmy :D
YouTube - Billy Connolly - Tobacco Police &amp; Mobile Phones

towerguard
10-31-2007, 04:45 AM
By Jan 1st all bars in my state will be forced to go no-smoking. Umm..excuse me fuckers? It's a god damned bar. There is vomit on the floor, booze on everyone's breath, there should be some god damned smoke in the air. I swear to god the whole thing just makes me want to light one up.

Jean
10-31-2007, 04:53 AM
By Jan 1st all bars in my state will be forced to go no-smoking. Umm..excuse me fuckers? It's a god damned bar. There is vomit on the floor, booze on everyone's breath, there should be some god damned smoke in the air. I swear to god the whole thing just makes me want to light one up.
but... don't you know how their logic works? The very moment smoking is banned, everybody will puke roses and fart orchids, pubs will naturally turn into branches of National Libraries and Philharmonics, and the rivers will flow with milk instead of sewage.

towerguard
10-31-2007, 04:57 AM
By Jan 1st all bars in my state will be forced to go no-smoking. Umm..excuse me fuckers? It's a god damned bar. There is vomit on the floor, booze on everyone's breath, there should be some god damned smoke in the air. I swear to god the whole thing just makes me want to light one up.
but... don't you know how their logic works? The very moment smoking is banned, everybody will puke roses and fart orchids, pubs will naturally turn into branches of National Libraries and Philharmonics, and the rivers will flow with milk instead of sewage.

$10 bucks says I still end up with crabs if the night goes my way. :cool:

Odetta
10-31-2007, 10:58 AM
OK... we now have a "pot" thread if anyone wants to discuss! I'll be in there rolling a joint!

Jimmy
10-31-2007, 11:09 AM
Thanks for the vid Darkthoughts.

Jeez... Il Duce's got some weird pants. But some good points too.

fernandito
10-31-2007, 11:28 AM
By Jan 1st all bars in my state will be forced to go no-smoking. Umm..excuse me fuckers? It's a god damned bar. There is vomit on the floor, booze on everyone's breath, there should be some god damned smoke in the air. I swear to god the whole thing just makes me want to light one up.
but... don't you know how their logic works? The very moment smoking is banned, everybody will puke roses and fart orchids, pubs will naturally turn into branches of National Libraries and Philharmonics, and the rivers will flow with milk instead of sewage.

I'm loving the sarcasm. :D

Matt
10-31-2007, 11:29 AM
I love rivers full of milk, that's how you know you have arrived. :lol:

Darkthoughts
10-31-2007, 01:15 PM
Thanks for the vid Darkthoughts.

Jeez... Il Duce's got some weird pants. But some good points too.

:lol: You're not far wrong there!

Something I don't understand - which may have been mentioned on the previous page - is why there aren't smoking bars? Theres a pub in the village that is just a bar, no food and really just a long room with tables and chairs. All kids under 18 have to be out by 9pm...so why can't we smoke there? And after 9 if necessary?

I didn't mind the ban in the summer, but now its cold I'm not digging it so much :P

Ruthful
11-05-2007, 08:42 PM
My sentiments on this issue are encapsulated by Joe Jackson's great song, In 20-03.

For those of you who've heard it you'll know where I stand on the whole regulating smokers subject.

Cutter
11-06-2007, 07:03 AM
Well I’m not a smoker but I could care less about second hand smoke. Your lungs are used to cleaning out daily pollutants, exhaust fumes is a great example. If you happen to be in a bar and everyone is smoking and you get second-hand smoke, guess what? your lungs will clean it out! Ask your doctor, he’ll agree. In fact you could say go to a bar twice a month, for a total of 24 times a year, and inhale second hand smoke, and nothing will happen to your body, because your lungs will clean themselves.

The problem is when parents smoke daily, and a child is inhaling second hand smoke on a daily basis. Or if you go to a bar 4 times a week and inhale second hand smoke. Then, your lungs can’t clean that out, and it’s a risk.

I’m sorry if this has already been mentioned, because I haven’t read the whole thread. But I thought I would just point this out for the people who are scared to be around a smoker. It’s not going to hurt your body, people, only if you are prolonged to second hand smoke does it become a problem.

Now it’s pretty easy for me to say this, though, because I live in a smoke-free state, so I am hardly ever around second-hand smoke. But when I am I know it won’t hurt my body, because it’s rare and in-between, and my lungs clean themselves out every day with the daily pollutants of living in a city.

Mike Beck
11-06-2007, 07:34 AM
the whole non-smoking bar thing is the devil. i almost cry when i find places out of state that have beautiful little ashtrays sitting on the tables. i used to sit at a diner for 35 hours, just sitting and smoking and drinking coffee and judging people. it was all taken away. :(

anyway. lovely thread. i'm going out for a cigarette now. peace be wit you all.

Matt
11-06-2007, 07:37 AM
:lol:

I wish I had been at work long enough to have one.

I haven't ate, then immediately smoked in years. :(

Brice
11-06-2007, 07:39 AM
the whole non-smoking bar thing is the devil. i almost cry when i find places out of state that have beautiful little ashtrays sitting on the tables. i used to sit at a diner for 35 hours, just sitting and smoking and drinking coffee and judging people. it was all taken away. :(

anyway. lovely thread. i'm going out for a cigarette now. peace be wit you all.


See what y'all nonsmokers did to the poor guy. :(



You can come down here and smoke in our bars anytime.

Mike Beck
11-06-2007, 07:42 AM
thanks man. i appreciate that. that's also why vegas is the best place around. you can smoke wherever you go. pretty much.

Matt
11-06-2007, 07:43 AM
I agree, I go to vegas just to smoke :lol:

really, I do.

Mike Beck
11-06-2007, 07:53 AM
hell, i would too! i'm checking out flights right now. or i'm not.

Matt
11-06-2007, 07:58 AM
Only time will tell.

There are also times where I simply flee into the night forsaking family and responsibilities to sit in a willow tree and smoke.

Mike Beck
11-06-2007, 08:09 AM
you're my kind of people, matt. :D

Jimmy
11-06-2007, 08:17 AM
Yes, Las Vegas is the smokers heaven. I once excused myself from some friends at a casino and went outside to smoke, and a doorman laughed at me.

I went right back inside. :D

Brice
11-06-2007, 08:19 AM
That's right in Vegas the rules change: we send the nonsmokers outside. :P


It is smoker heaven. :dance:

Matt
11-06-2007, 08:27 AM
That's how the walkin' dude got everyone there in the Stand :lol:

Cause you can't smoke in Boulder!! <_<

Brice
11-06-2007, 08:29 AM
Fuck, if I gotta choose between unrelenting evil/smoking and good/nonsmoking I think you all know where I'll be.





:grouphug: <---Randall Flagg

Arthur Heath
11-06-2007, 09:04 AM
Not sure if this came up already, but you should all watch Thank You For Smoking if you have not seen it... It gets its point across by brilliant satire.

Mike Beck
11-06-2007, 09:22 AM
i heard that was a good film. gonna have to check it.

Matt
11-06-2007, 09:23 AM
It was pretty good, hard to get though but that guy was pretty funny.

"why would we want smoking to kill? we want this young man around for years so he can keep smoking" :lol:

Ruthful
11-06-2007, 10:51 AM
If you liked the movie-which I didn't see, admittedly-you should give the novel it's based upon a whirl.

I know ladysai is another Christopher Buckley fan-I don't know how many others here read his stuff-but that novel is one of his best, aside from Little Green Man, which is also worth reading.

The cinematic adaptation should be interesting since I think the two people responsible for creating it are/were Mormons.

towerguard
11-09-2007, 12:52 AM
YouTube - Bill Hicks - non smokers

Brice
11-09-2007, 12:59 AM
haha! Thanks for posting that. I love Bill Hicks. :D

She-Oy
11-09-2007, 09:11 AM
I smoke. I'd like to quit, but not so badly that I've actually done it. Well, that's wrong. I've quit once, when I was pregnant and that lasted several years until one really stressful day. But that was about 4-5 years ago and I've smoked ever since.

Now I'm going to throw myself into the group of "habitual" smokers. I do not think I am addicted to nicotine. I can go a week without a cigarette if I have to (for example, when I'm around my parents)...so obviously it isn't the nicotine I crave, just the simple act of holding, lighting, inhaling and exhaling I enjoy so much.

My husband on the other hand is seriously addicted to the nicotine. It's as real an addiction as heroin or cocaine or alcohol.

Here's my question...we live in a world where we can do heart transplants, saw cojoined twins apart and have them both survive, we can send people to the moon and satalites far past our own galaxy. Our current average lifespan is the highest it's EVER been in all humanity...so why, oh why isn't there a serious cure for nicotine addiction?

There's a drug for alcoholics....if you take the drug and drink, it will make you soooo sick, there's methodone for heroin. Of course those don't always work, but they could if the individual taking them really wanted them too. But what about smokers? Nope. Even the ways to stop smoking like Nicorette gum include nicotine.

Me thinks it has to do with the powerful tobacco lobbyists and our governement really not giving a shit. They pretend to, but they don't care.

Brice
11-09-2007, 09:15 AM
There is ibogaine for various addictions, but it's illegal in the states.

She-Oy
11-09-2007, 09:20 AM
There is ibogaine for various addictions, but it's illegal in the states.


WHY is it illegal here? Who doesn't want it legalized? Does it work for people in other countries?

Brice
11-09-2007, 09:27 AM
I've read that it's highly successful with addiction in general.
Our government doesn't want it legalized. It's actually a scheduled drug here. I believe schedule one. As for why it's illegal there are two answers. First when it was being studied for possible legitimate use there was like one death in something like a few hundred people. The other reason it is mildly hallucinogenic. It comes from an African plant named Tabernanthe Iboga. I believe it's legal in Canada. There are clinics there.

She-Oy
11-09-2007, 09:33 AM
Sooo! Methodone aint so great either but it's dolled out regularly. And lots of people die under studies for new treatment, that par for the course. I was reading about a new blood thinner yesterday. It has a better success rate than Plavix, but plenty of people bled to death during the study...just not enough people to deem it "dangerous".

My point is that there is something else preventing these things to be available to the public. The invisible hand. Yes, I know, it's all conspiracy theoryfied but in my heart of heart I think it's the truth.

Tobacco Companies given massive amounts of money to politicians and fund some government programs. They are so deep within the pockets they won't be stopped.

All this smoke outside, in designated places, blah blah blah....they are only laws passed to complacate the general public. That's it.

Brice
11-09-2007, 09:41 AM
Yes, I suspect that it's being considered hallucinogenic is the primary excuse for it being illegal. The one documented death is merely a cover for that. I do believe research has begun again with it as our government is allowing some limited research with hallucinogens again including LSD and MDA/MDMA. Ibogaine apparently or at least by many reports has close to a 100% success rate with withdrawal in general.

Darkthoughts
11-09-2007, 04:46 PM
we can send people to the moon
Talking of conspiracy theories...that ^ never happened :P

I always thought the government probably got too big a slice of the tobacco industry pie to want to ban it.

Kevin
11-09-2007, 08:18 PM
Thanks for the info Brice, I'd never heard of it. It's amazing that it works for so many different addictions; alcohol, nicotine, cocaine, memphanphetamines etc. I dont understand quite how that works neurologically, since I'm pretty sure each individual addiction triggers a different nerve and a different chemical pathway.

I dont buy into the conspiracy theory though. The drug has many other uses, and its still not being used. That tells me that there is no ulterior motive, that its not being used in the US yet because the health risks have not been fully evaluated.

Ruthful
11-09-2007, 08:40 PM
That's a real possibility.

A lot more often the FDA will overreact and prohibit a lifesaving drug-or take it off the market-because of political blowback, which is awful, IMO. That happened to Tysabri-when one or two questionable deaths occurred in patients taking it-and it hurt a lot of people suffering from autoimmune disorders.

Then you have the opposite, where a drug that's proven to be extremely dangerous is kept on the market-or the FDA greenlights it-because it's supported by a powerful political lobby or special interest group.

sarajean
11-09-2007, 09:57 PM
we can send people to the moon
Talking of conspiracy theories...that ^ never happened :P


i didn't think it was possible to :wub: lisa even more. but it is.

on topic:

i smoke a lot
and if you're a smoker too
you ought to know sometimes it's tough
to be in healthy company
people who always say
you smoke a lot
imagine the amount of money
you could save if you'd quit
you smoke a lot
by now you'd have a bike
aren't you concerned about the kids?
well, of course, sure am
concerned a bit
but about that bike
i could get killed with it
and is that what you really want?
it's not
so i smooooooooooooooke a lot
i smoke a lot.
my god, i smoke a lot
and i feel fine
and i feel fine.

(lyrics by k's choice)

Brice
11-09-2007, 10:29 PM
Thanks for the info Brice, I'd never heard of it. It's amazing that it works for so many different addictions; alcohol, nicotine, cocaine, memphanphetamines etc. I dont understand quite how that works neurologically, since I'm pretty sure each individual addiction triggers a different nerve and a different chemical pathway.

I dont buy into the conspiracy theory though. The drug has many other uses, and its still not being used. That tells me that there is no ulterior motive, that its not being used in the US yet because the health risks have not been fully evaluated.

Ibogaine's action appears to be along various cellular paths and specifically upon nicotinic acetylcholine receptors.

I didn't mean to suggest any sort of conspiracy. Of course if research isn't allowed with a substance it's kind of hard for it to ever become adequately evaluated. But I only meant that research with hallucinogens was held in low regard even when it has been allowed in the past. Research has begun again. And you are right it does have other applications apparently.

Darkthoughts
11-10-2007, 09:19 AM
we can send people to the moon
Talking of conspiracy theories...that ^ never happened :P


i didn't think it was possible to :wub: lisa even more. but it is.
:D Thats because I'm a junkie for some SaraJean lovin'! As soon as I think you've given me my quota - I have to find an excuse for you to gimme more :P

And anyway, its true :borg:

Wuducynn
11-10-2007, 11:16 AM
It's possible to love Lisa?

Darkthoughts
11-10-2007, 04:16 PM
Moi? I am tres loveable :innocent:

Mordred Deschain
11-11-2007, 06:02 PM
I like to smoke. As I am getting older I do find it a crutch that I would like to give up. But, the nicotine doesn't mess with me as much. I find for myself it's part oral fixation and boredom. I work outside so it is easy for me to smoke all day long. I don't have history of lung cancer (or mouth or throat cancer) in my family, and even know this isn't a proven fact, I didn't start smoking until I was 20, closer to 21. I've heard since I didn't start smoking until that late in life that my lungs were probably fully developed and may be alright in the long run. However, I don't think of that as the reason why I keep smoking. It actually calms me down.
On the whole smoking and non-smoking in public places; I smoke in my own vehicle, and I usually do not smoke in my vehicle if there is a non smoker riding in. I don't smoke in other people's vehicles unless they do. I don't smoke in other peoples houses, unless they do. After spending time partying in New York, Colorado, and California; I could care less if my local watering hole(s) become smoke free. I will either take it outside, or wait until I'm on my way home. Take a 9 hour flight to Ireland, and see really how much you need the nicotine. Anyway, that's my two cents without reading all the previous pages.:cool:

WildPegasus
01-04-2008, 12:18 AM
Theres an official pot thread, why not an official tobacco thread :D

So are you a smoker or non-smoker. Do you hate smokers or do you have a favourite brand etc

My favorites are Lucky Strike :cool:

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7981/getdatayw0.gif

Ruki
01-04-2008, 12:40 AM
there's a smoking thread somewhere in here just for tobacco :) so maybe expect a merge soon
and i love smoking
marlboros or no-name government brand or grands
always full flavor, always filtered, never 100's

Jean
01-04-2008, 12:46 AM
I am a confirmed smoker that currently doesn't smoke for some serious reasons. My favorites are Gauloises, sometimes Gitans (always full flavor, always filtered!)

Letti
01-04-2008, 01:54 AM
I am a non-smoker but I have no problems with smokers at all. Many of the important people of my life smoke and I grew up in thick smoke so... :) it's absolutely okay to me.

Darkthoughts
01-04-2008, 08:11 AM
Bloody hell Jean, you are hardcore!! Galuoises are sooo strong!

I smoke Marlboro lights, Mediums or Menthols or rolling baccy (I don't mind anything - Golden Virginia, Amber Leaf or even Drum). I used to smoke Basic Lights when my friend from the US Airbase used to live here.

When I was at college I smoked Marlboro reds, Camel or Lucky Strikes - but I find them all too harsh now.

jayson
01-04-2008, 08:16 AM
I quit a few months ago after smoking for about 10 years. With my wife pregnant, there were less and less places I could smoke and finally I was able to just quit altogether. That said, I'm not "anti-smoking" in any way. To each his/her own. It's just not for me anymore.

Darkthoughts
01-04-2008, 08:24 AM
Good on ya :thumbsup:

I've always been a social/weekend smoker, whereas my husband smokes everyday. But neither of us ever smoke in the house because of the kids - I only smoke at the pub and Rob will go in the garden at home.

I quit each time I was pregnant - and for as long as I was feeding for afterwards. I normally only smoke once a week (Friday night - my night out) but if I don't go out on that night, I don't get the urge to smoke. Its dumb enough for me to think "Why don't I just quit!?" but I do enjoy it.

Matt
01-04-2008, 08:26 AM
I'm a smoker for sure--I'll quit someday but I believe its one of those all or nothing thing.

I don't think I can socially smoke anything :lol:

Darkthoughts
01-04-2008, 08:27 AM
:lol:

Brice
01-04-2008, 08:28 AM
I smoke a pack and a half to two packs a day split between Marlboros and Newports. I remove the filters. I have for years.

Darkthoughts
01-04-2008, 08:30 AM
YUCK!! Brice, I love you...but that is wrong! :lol:

Brice
01-04-2008, 08:32 AM
YUCK!! Brice, I love you...but that is wrong! :lol:


But, all cigarettes are too weak.


I loves you too Lisa. :couple:

Wuducynn
01-04-2008, 08:42 AM
I smoke Rocky Patel Vintages, Punch Rare Corojos, Padron, Fuente.

Brice
01-04-2008, 08:43 AM
I smoke Rocky Patel Vintages, Punch Rare Corojos, Padron, Fuente.

As in Arturo Fuente???

Ruthful
01-04-2008, 09:38 AM
My grandfather was a big cigar-smoker.

The only way I can see lighting a stogie is if El Hefe and his fetid brother kick the bucket.

jayson
01-04-2008, 09:45 AM
My grandfather was a big cigar-smoker.


Mine was as well. The smell of cigars always reminds me of mine. My dad and I used to smoke cigars when we'd play golf but he can't smoke them anymore for health reasons. I still enjoy a good one on occasion.

Odetta
01-04-2008, 10:32 AM
my dad used to smoke a pipe when I was really small... I still love the smell...

Wuducynn
01-04-2008, 11:24 AM
As in Arturo Fuente???

Yep! :cool:

jayson
01-04-2008, 12:38 PM
my dad used to smoke a pipe when I was really small... I still love the smell...

my other gandfather sometimes smoked a pipe, though i didn't know him nearly as well as the cigar-smoking one.

Brice
01-04-2008, 04:22 PM
As in Arturo Fuente???

Yep! :cool:
I used to smoke those somewhat regularly.

Armand St Pierre
01-04-2008, 11:02 PM
http://www.buydiscountcigarettes.com/images/cigarettes/Pall%20Mall%20Full%20Flavor.jpg
http://www.euro-cig.com/getdata.php?id=148
http://www.rumandpopcorn.com/koolmenthol.jpg
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/f/f9/Lucky_strike_usa.jpg
http://www.cigarettesexpress.com/CamelW.jpg

depending on my mood.....

It's the dumbest thing I do......and that's saying alot.

"A fire on one end and a fool on the other."
Kurt Vonnegut

Jean
01-04-2008, 11:17 PM
Bloody hell Jean, you are hardcore!! Galuoises are sooo strong!

I smoke Marlboro lights, Mediums or Menthols or rolling baccy (I don't mind anything - Golden Virginia, Amber Leaf or even Drum). I used to smoke Basic Lights when my friend from the US Airbase used to live here.

When I was at college I smoked Marlboro reds, Camel or Lucky Strikes - but I find them all too harsh now.

well, at least they are these Gauloises: http://www.selected-cigarettes.com/german/html/one/gauloises_blondes.jpg

not these: http://houel.club.fr/pages/pict/3_gauloise_capol.jpg

Les caporals are indeed non-smokeable.

I never could get used to smoking any Marlboros or Luckies, the only American cigarettes I ever liked were Camels.

Kevin
01-04-2008, 11:48 PM
Surprisingly, I like the smell of cigarettes and cigars. I'm around fire and smoke a lot, so I'm used to it.

As to a potential merge...this was originally meant as an anti-smoking/smoking discussion as opposed to supporting smoking/tobacco as I think the other thread is. I'd like to keep them seperate if possible.

That being said, its devolved/evolved into kind of a support group anyways...so I can understand why a merge might be in order. :)

towerguard
01-05-2008, 03:01 AM
So, it was the first rock night without being able to smoke inside, me and a bunch of cool fuckers all finished our smokes at the same time, held the last puff in til' we got in front of the stage and blew it out all at once...

:D

Aesculapius
01-05-2008, 10:19 AM
http://www.selected-cigarettes.com/german/html/one/gauloises_blondes.jpg

not these: http://houel.club.fr/pages/pict/3_gauloise_capol.jpg

Interesting imagery on those...

http://imagenes.acambiode.com/img-bbdd/hermes.jpg

Brice
01-05-2008, 10:32 AM
Mercury

Aesculapius
01-05-2008, 10:50 AM
Quick to kill ya.


I smoke Mediums. :lol:
(vehicle for ideas: a means of conveying ideas or information)

William50
01-05-2008, 10:53 AM
My grandma used to smoke. Now she is very unhealthy! I hate the smell and the idea of smoking.

Odetta
01-05-2008, 11:13 AM
Quick to kill ya.


I smoke Mediums. :lol:
(vehicle for ideas: a means of conveying ideas or information)

:lol:

they usually don't like it when you do that, tho.

Aesculapius
01-05-2008, 12:00 PM
:rofl:

My mediums actually enjoy being smoked (destroyed).

William50
01-05-2008, 12:04 PM
I don't know it for a fact,(i have never smoked) but I have heard that smoking is an expensive habit.

Brice
01-05-2008, 12:07 PM
It is, but money is there to be gotten rid of anyway. :) I am good at it too. :lol:

William50
01-05-2008, 12:09 PM
You have smoked?

Brice
01-05-2008, 12:12 PM
Have smoked, smoke, am about to smoke, and will till I go in a box.

William50
01-05-2008, 12:14 PM
Enjoy it?

Brice
01-05-2008, 12:15 PM
I will. thank you! :)

William50
01-05-2008, 12:18 PM
:cool: When I think about it, I may have smoked...second hand anyway. I used to ride in a car with my friend and his mom would smoke while driving. Thus filling the car with smoke.

Brice
01-05-2008, 12:22 PM
In my opinion the hazards of secondhand smoke are overhyped. I mean if they were chainsmoking all the time with the windows up well, that might not be good for you, but being around it occasionally seems unlikely to do anyone harm unless they have some serious breathing problems.

William50
01-05-2008, 12:29 PM
I do have mild asthma!

Brice
01-05-2008, 12:58 PM
If it is mild I would guess the smoke (while it may be irritating a bit) would cause little if any real harm.

William50
01-05-2008, 01:25 PM
I agree.

ATG
01-05-2008, 10:55 PM
http://i18.tinypic.com/8bpwkuf.jpg

TerribleT
01-06-2008, 01:53 AM
I smoked a pack of Marlboro Reds a day for 30 years. Occasionally I got up to as many as two packs a day. I always had a really nasty cough. I woke up in the middle of the night one night with a 102 degree fever, went to the hospital, and wound up spending 4 days there with a really bad case of pnuemonia. While I was being examined and checked in, my nurse told me that I was already showing signs of problems related to long term smoking, and that if I didn't quit I would be carrying around an oxygen tank within 3-5 years. I laid in the hospital for 4 days pretty much gasping for air any time I wasn't on oxygen. My mother came into my hospital room in tears, and asked me "now will you quit?". I decided there was NO WAY that I was going to die gasping for air. There was NO WAY I was going to carry an oxygen bottle around, and that I was a LOT smarter than than that. That was 2 and 1/2 years ago, and I haven't had a cigarette since the night I went into the hospital. (I used the patch to quit, but since then I've taken no nicotine at all into my system) I've stopped coughing all the time. I got back on my bicycle last summer, and my breathing and lungs improve all the time. Smoking is a really bad idea, and it's devastating to your health. That said, I really despise the people out there that try to stop others from smoking. I think if you wanna smoke, and you're aware of the dangers, and you accept the risk, then it's your business, and no one elses. I don't buy the second hand smoke bullshit. I do think smokers need to be courteous to non-smokers, properly dispose of your cigarette butts, and try to be polite about it.

Matt, it is that way for me. There's no in between for me, it's an all or nothing deal. I'm either gonna smoke, or not smoke.

William50
01-06-2008, 08:04 AM
See, smoking is bad!!

Brice
01-07-2008, 05:39 AM
See, smoking is bad!!


Bad is a relative term. Very little in life is entirely good or bad. An informed and educated decision is always best. :)

ManOfWesternesse
01-07-2008, 06:03 AM
Well said terribleT - & thanks for saying it.

I too am an ex-smoker (about 25-a-day on average for about 22 years).
I quit nearly 4 years ago, and thank God have not had a single smoke since.
(:lol: I remember back then thinking how smoking kept me healthy & how much worse I'd be without them - this is back when I used to get Bronchitis about once-a-year on average - what an asshole! :lol:)

If you are a constant smoker you might:-
... end up like TerribleT's example above - hauling your own personal oxygen supply around with you to combat the emphysema (not a nice way to die!)
-or-
... you might be one of the lucky ones, like an old neighbour of mine who smoked 40 a day all his life. He died one day taking a quick nap after dinner, on a break from thatching his roof. He was 97 !

..but do you really want to take the risk you'll be one of the lucky ones?

I am (thankfully) very tolerant of smokers still. It's fine for consenting adults who know & accept the risk, and who are respectful of the space for non-smokers. It's a free world.

Kevin
01-07-2008, 07:40 AM
Well said terribleT - & thanks for saying it.

I too am an ex-smoker (about 25-a-day on average for about 22 years).
I quit nearly 4 years ago, and thank God have not had a single smoke since.
(:lol: I remember back then thinking how smoking kept me healthy & how much worse I'd be without them - this is back when I used to get Bronchitis about once-a-year on average - what an asshole! :lol:)

If you are a constant smoker you might:-
... end up like TerribleT's example above - hauling your own personal oxygen supply around with you to combat the emphysema (not a nice way to die!)
-or-
... you might be one of the lucky ones, like an old neighbour of mine who smoked 40 a day all his life. He died one day taking a quick nap after dinner, on a break from thatching his roof. He was 97 !

..but do you really want to take the risk you'll be one of the lucky ones?

I am (thankfully) very tolerant of smokers still. It's fine for consenting adults who know & accept the risk, and who are respectful of the space for non-smokers. It's a free world.

:clap: :clap: :thumbsup: :clap: :clap:

Odetta
01-07-2008, 07:49 AM
:rofl:

My mediums actually enjoy being smoked (destroyed).

Do you know that for sure? HAVE YOU ASKED THEM????


;)

Jimmy
01-07-2008, 07:50 AM
Have smoked, smoke, am about to smoke, and will till I go in a box.

I'm sigging this.

Brice
01-07-2008, 07:51 AM
Cool! :rock:

Mattrick
01-11-2008, 05:39 PM
I don't smoke a lot, maybe 6 or 7 a day if I even have a pack. I believe in the smoking bans in public places and starting in cars with children. Apartment buildings even, if they allow smoking on balaconies that is. I don't mind going out for a smoke, not a big deal to me. I won't smoke around children though. Any person that smokes around infants.... I saw this woman one time at a local plaza who had, let's say a two year old, in a stroller. She was behind it having a cigarette, talking to someone who was sitting at a table in front of the stroller, blowing smoke in the kids directiong. The kid kept trying to close the stroller to block the smoke and she kept opening it back up and when the kid threw stuff out because it was pissed she yelled at it whilst exhaling smoke in it's face. Just irresponsible imo.

Ruthful
01-11-2008, 06:32 PM
On the "news of the obvious" front,

http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/health/2008/01/11/2008-01-11_man_in_antismoking_ad_still_lights_up.html

TerribleT
01-12-2008, 05:59 AM
I agree with the smoking bans to a VERY limited degree, but I mostly oppose them as I feel that it's just one group of people trying to control the behavior of another group of people. I'm a former smoker, as I've stated in previous posts, and I think smoking is definitely a bad idea, but so are about 500 other things I can think of, and we're not trying to make them illegal. I don't see anything wrong with having smoking areas, and non-smoking areas in restaurants, especially if the owner of that restaurant wants to have one. I do support smoking bans in the office, but oppose them in most other places. If you want to smoke, it's your business, and no one elses. I sincerely wish I could smoke a few cigarettes every day, but I just know I'd be back to a pack a day within a few months, and that whole part about slowly suffocating to death, and having my limbs amputated, all that just REALLY disturbs me.

Darkthoughts
01-12-2008, 08:29 AM
Back when the ban was about to be introduced in the UK, people in a mental health unit were being interviewed about the fact that they hadn't been given exempt status like some prisons had.
The interviewer asked an inmate if she thought it was unfair and she replied "Yes, we find it [smoking] a great stress reliever and it can be very stressful being in here sometimes."
"What do you think will happen when the ban is inforced?" the interviewer asked,
"Well, we'll probably all go mad!!" she said, completely without a sense of irony :lol:

Brice
01-12-2008, 08:39 AM
:rofl:

TerribleT
01-12-2008, 09:46 AM
Back when the ban was about to be introduced in the UK, people in a mental health unit were being interviewed about the fact that they hadn't been given exempt status like some prisons had.
The interviewer asked an inmate if she thought it was unfair and she replied "Yes, we find it [smoking] a great stress reliever and it can be very stressful being in here sometimes."
"What do you think will happen when the ban is inforced?" the interviewer asked,
"Well, we'll probably all go mad!!" she said, completely without a sense of irony :lol:

TOO Funny, did they institute a ban there?

Darkthoughts
01-13-2008, 04:43 AM
Sadly for the poor mad people, they did :D

TerribleT
01-13-2008, 05:09 AM
I'm sorry, I didn't ask what I meant to ask. :rofl: I meant did they institute smoking bans in the UK, and how extensively? What are your thoughts on that?

Darkthoughts
01-13-2008, 05:18 AM
Oh! :rofl:

Yes they did, in July last year. I think its basically the same as the US now - no smoking in any public buildings.
They tried to stagger the ban, by having a ban in easter which meant you couldn't smoke in any building where food was served, and that led into the total ban.

In some respects its a good thing, like - its nice to go out to the pub and not come home stinking like 50 ashtrays. But, I don't feel so supportive of it now its winter and I get soaking wet and/or freezing cold every time I have to step outside to have a ciggy :D

TerribleT
01-13-2008, 05:27 AM
In the US right now it varies from city to city. Some places have instituted smoking bans in all public places. There are usually outdoor places to smoke though. I really despise the bans, and think it's another example of the nanny state at work. I think if a bar or restaurant owner wants to allow smoking in THEIR establishment, then so be it. If not, that's good too. I really don't buy a lot of the second hand smoke data. I think it's largely hyped up to scare people and get them to do exactly what's been done (ban smoking), So that one group of people may control the behavior of another. I think some of it is the fault of the smokers too, because a lot of smokers are really rude about it.

Darkthoughts
01-13-2008, 11:30 AM
I thought the "No smoking where food is served" ban made more sense. There are alot of pubs in the UK that don't serve food of any kind, people go to them for three things; to socialise, to drink and to smoke. Places like that, I think, should be exempt - or at least designate certain places as "Smoking Bars". Like you say, it seems undemocratic to blanket ban it everywhere.

TerribleT
01-13-2008, 06:00 PM
I thought the "No smoking where food is served" ban made more sense. There are alot of pubs in the UK that don't serve food of any kind, people go to them for three things; to socialise, to drink and to smoke. Places like that, I think, should be exempt - or at least designate certain places as "Smoking Bars". Like you say, it seems undemocratic to blanket ban it everywhere.

Not only is it undemocratic, but you have to wonder, what's next? NYC, at the behest of Michael Bloomberg, has already banned transfats, where do we go from here?

Mattrick
01-14-2008, 12:10 AM
Smoking in public place has been banned in Ontario for nearly three years. You all need to catch up. We haven't be able to smoke in malls, restaurants, bus shelters, train platforms and even at our theme park there are designated smoking areas and it's ALL OUTSIDE.

Don't bitch about it being undemocratic. People who don't smoke have freedoms to not breathe in second hand smoke.

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 03:41 AM
I'll bitch as much as I like Mattrick, people who do smoke should have the freedom to have smoking only bars where the non smokers are free not to enter.

Jon
01-14-2008, 04:44 AM
The solution is very simple. Pass the law banning smoking INSIDE or under a roof (Awnings and such) of any public place. Then word the law to exclude "private clubs." Leave the definition of "private club" very open except that it must be posted very visibly (maybe near the "hours of operation" on the door). Then, any restaurant, bar etc declares themselves a "private club." The only restriction is that they must inform ,verbally, any "new members" that smoking occurs at this venue. A bouncer or Mayre de could greet the "new members" and inform them. We realize that at such places there are many "repeat customers" and no need to repeat the smoking warning to them.

Jon
01-14-2008, 04:47 AM
I'll bitch as much as I like Mattrick, people who do smoke should have the freedom to have smoking only bars where the non smokers are free not to enter.

The "market" will dictate that. I'm sure if a law were passed non smoking bars will spring up. They have here. But such laws should NEVER be federal or state laws. Let the locals decide. Just a visible posting. Many places here in Jerkwater, Indiana advertise right on their door smoking or non smoking. Both are "selling points."

Brice
01-14-2008, 05:20 AM
Hmmm...sometimes all the restictions on smoking make me want to open a bar where smoking is not allowed, but required. :lol:

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 05:26 AM
:lol:

I'm not sure how it panned out, but the House of Lords (where all the politicians go to officially talk crap) was going to be exempt from the ban...thats blatantly taking the piss :rolleyes:

Brice
01-14-2008, 05:29 AM
:lol:

I'm not sure how it panned out, but the House of Lords (where all the politicians go to officially talk crap) was going to be exempt from the ban...thats blatantly taking the piss :rolleyes:

Ok, they are just begging to literally have their asses kicked by a bunch of pissed off smokers.

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 05:53 AM
I'll have to search and find out if that happened. Prisons and some other institutions have been given exempt status. But Jon, going back to what you said about smoking bars being bound to crop up - they can't - it became the law throughout the UK in July last year.

Brice
01-14-2008, 05:55 AM
We've got that in some places here in the states. Before long I'm sure it'll be everywhere. If I owned a bar I'd keep paying whatever fines and allow smoking.

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 05:59 AM
I think fine wise, the landlord gets fined aswell as the people smoking, plus further offenses could result in you losing your license.

I mean, whatever I tow the line, go outside to smoke...it was just better in the summer when you could sit outside all evening and not be affected by the ban.

Brice
01-14-2008, 06:06 AM
I think the funniest (to me) restrictions on smoking are the outside smoking areas around some public places or not being able to smoke within x feet of a building. To me this is just ridiculous....like my smoke isn't gonna' drift into the nonsmoking areas outside. :lol:

Odetta
01-14-2008, 07:11 AM
To me this is just ridiculous....like my smoke isn't gonna' drift into the nonsmoking areas outside. :lol:

maybe it's like... The Mist

Kevin
01-14-2008, 08:34 AM
Smoking in public place has been banned in Ontario for nearly three years. You all need to catch up. We haven't be able to smoke in malls, restaurants, bus shelters, train platforms and even at our theme park there are designated smoking areas and it's ALL OUTSIDE.

Don't bitch about it being undemocratic. People who don't smoke have freedoms to not breathe in second hand smoke.


I'll bitch as much as I like Mattrick, people who do smoke should have the freedom to have smoking only bars where the non smokers are free not to enter.

Well, its interesting that there has been such a hooplah over the smoking ban in England, but we've had it for 3 years with very little argument. Smokers over here dont see the issue as such a big deal. Now, I'm not speaking for all smokers in Ontario, but the smokers I've talked to do not find it a problem. It's just not seen as undemocratic.

Ruthful
01-14-2008, 08:48 AM
I'll have to search and find out if that happened. Prisons and some other institutions have been given exempt status. But Jon, going back to what you said about smoking bars being bound to crop up - they can't - it became the law throughout the UK in July last year.

They even tried to crack down on the hookah cafes over here.

If it weren't so outdated by this point I'd suggest they try to adapt The Ten O'Clock People to the screen.

Have any of you ever heard Loudon Wainwright III's song on this subject?


Trapped in skyscraper office space
Take your break; escape in haste
I'd walk a mile for that great taste; of thy brand I thee sing...
We're the new street people; we're the ones you see
Standing outside smoking; where the air is free

Wuducynn
01-14-2008, 08:53 AM
The solution is very simple.

You're right the solution is very simple. Not have the government involved in anyway. Federal, state, and local. No laws, no regulations. No democracy which = Two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner.
Freedom FROM government is the solution.

Kevin
01-14-2008, 09:00 AM
Or we could, y'know...try tolerance.

Jonn Wolfe
01-14-2008, 09:02 AM
Smoking is my only real vice. However, I'd drop it if the wife did. No way one of us can do it alone.

Brice
01-14-2008, 09:08 AM
The solution is very simple.

You're right the solution is very simple. Not have the government involved in anyway. Federal, state, and local. No laws, no regulations. No democracy which = Two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for dinner.
Freedom FROM government is the solution.


Or we could, y'know...try tolerance.

I agree with both of these really. It shouldn't be a legal matter at all. It should just be BOTH smokers and nonsmokers being respectful and considerate of each other, as all people should.

Wuducynn
01-14-2008, 09:20 AM
They go together like milk and cookies Brice. Definitely. The idea is not to go to the government to force others to behave a certain way. Live and let live and respect others.

TerribleT
01-14-2008, 09:26 AM
:lol:

I'm not sure how it panned out, but the House of Lords (where all the politicians go to officially talk crap) was going to be exempt from the ban...thats blatantly taking the piss :rolleyes:

That's how the US Congress was, I think up until very recently, *if* it's changed

TerribleT
01-14-2008, 09:31 AM
They go together like milk and cookies Brice. Definitely. The idea is not to go to the government to force others to behave a certain way. Live and let live and respect others.

Which is my major complaint with non-smoking laws, it's one group of people trying to force their their ways on another group of people, and it's bullshit.

I love the two wolves and a sheep Matt!!

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 01:30 PM
Well, its interesting that there has been such a hooplah over the smoking ban in England,
Its not caused a big scene over here, this is just my opinion ;)


It's just not seen as undemocratic.
Whats undemocratic (imo) is that there is no concession for smokers. I heartily agree that non smokers should be able to eat and drink in a smoke free atmosphere, I just don't understand why there can't be indoor smoking places for smokers, that would be democratic.


I think the funniest (to me) restrictions on smoking are the outside smoking areas around some public places or not being able to smoke within x feet of a building. To me this is just ridiculous....like my smoke isn't gonna' drift into the nonsmoking areas outside. :lol:
We don't have that...yet! :D You can smoke anywhere you like outside. But in the UK you pretty much don't want to be outside from November to May :lol:


Or we could, y'know...try tolerance.
I agree, but in this topic of conversation tolerance usually means "Why don't you smokers stop complaining, obviously non smokers have more rights than you so put up with it!"
I'm not saying thats your opinion, but to make an example from your comment, its often what non smokers are implying.

I think its unfair to portray smokers as rude and selfish just because they might have negative aswell as positive views on the ban.

HanzouNorak
01-14-2008, 02:02 PM
remember in Dark Tower 6, Roland gave Eddie a quick fact of smoking being benificial,

Not entirely far fetched................
you see, in the older days, smoking was not this addictive lung destroyer that we see today, yes it was still harmful to your lungs, yes it was still addictive, but the thing is all the shit that those pricks put in them makes them more addictive, but more damaging to your lungs. cigarettes these days are almost 70% artifical death-sentence chemicals. but theres really no other way to get them, unless you have your own private crop. personally, im not going to smoke, never? that word has a weak meaning in my eyes. but still, people can smoke around me if they want, that is, if they can endure my constant hacking.

Wuducynn
01-14-2008, 02:33 PM
I hate Lisa.

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 02:34 PM
Check out my mood, I'm pissy...OK?!! Back off...:P :lol:

Wuducynn
01-14-2008, 02:35 PM
Come on, do I ever back off?

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 02:35 PM
No *blows smoke in your face*

Wuducynn
01-14-2008, 02:36 PM
Mmmmm thats a fucking turn-on!

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 02:37 PM
:lol: I so knew you were going to say that!

Kevin
01-14-2008, 02:47 PM
Lisa: From what I've read on the net there has been a bit of a 'hooplah' as I called it in England about the ban, far less than there was in Canada. I think part of that is because the percentage of smokers in Canada is less than the ratio in England. Since I live (random guess) 6000 miles away, you probably know more about that than I do, but thats the impression I've gotten around the net (and from smokers on this site), and from living in Canada.

To me, I dont see a ban of smoking in indoor public places as undemocratic. For example: there are rules to running a kitchen, you have to meet certain regs to continue running, because if its unclean or unsafe, people are going to get sick or hurt. How does a ban on smoking in bars really differ from the government trying to implement something like the Food Safety and Quality Act in Ontario? THE FSQA is a tool of the government to keep restuarants clean, just like a smoking ban is.

Furthermore, your opinion is that there should be bars open for smokers. If my statement stands up (which I doubt it will, lol), does that then mean that we should have restaurants that should be able to go around the FSQA?

Matt
01-14-2008, 02:51 PM
I'm not sure those two compare. The link between say...diseased meat and sickness is totally proven.

The link between second hand smoke and any kind of sickness is a fairy tale. This comes down to one group of peoples opinion and comfort trumping another.

Like if a bunch of people thought the smell of mushrooms sauteeing could possibly make them sick (they really just didn't like it)--and then the city making a rule about it.

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 03:05 PM
Yep, I agree with Matt. Food hygiene is a responsibility for anyone serving food. A smoking bar may or may not be a risk through second hand smoke - but whether to stay there would be the individuals responsibility, not the establishments.

Anyhow, if the bar was advertised as being specifically for smokers with the majority of other bars being smoke free it would seem obvious that a non smoker would chose not to go in a smoking bar. With your food analogy, if you advertised that you didn't follow food hygiene guidelines I doubt you'd have any customers at all :lol:

You probably heard of some protest against the smoking ban here because it only came in last year. There was alot of discussion, in the media, on the net etc before the ban came in - but that sort of backlash is natural when a restriction that wasn't previously in place is introduced. Theres been no cases of people going against the ban, so I consider the hoohah to be nil :)

Kevin
01-14-2008, 03:16 PM
I'm not sure those two compare. The link between say...diseased meat and sickness is totally proven.

The link between second hand smoke and any kind of sickness is a fairy tale. This comes down to one group of peoples opinion and comfort trumping another.

Like if a bunch of people thought the smell of mushrooms sauteeing could possibly make them sick (they really just didn't like it)--and then the city making a rule about it.

I see the link between second-hand smoke and ill health very, very clearly. I've seen it through research and I've seen it in my family and in the families of friends. To me, its proven, just like the link between bad beef and sickness.

Could someone send me a link for research that disproves second-hand smoke??


Yep, I agree with Matt. Food hygiene is a responsibility for anyone serving food. A smoking bar may or may not be a risk through second hand smoke - but whether to stay there would be the individuals responsibility, not the establishments.


If a restaurant is responsible for its food, why not the air?

Darkthoughts
01-14-2008, 03:20 PM
I developed asthma when I lived in a city from cycling to work through the rush hour traffic everyday - so I'm sure there is a correlation with long term/constant exposure to second hand smoke. But what I'm more interested in, in this discussion, is are/why are the non smokers adverse to us smokers having our own bars?

Kevin
01-14-2008, 03:24 PM
I developed asthma when I lived in a city from cycling to work through the rush hour traffic everyday - so I'm sure there is a correlation with long term/constant exposure to second hand smoke. But what I'm more interested in, in this discussion, is are/why are the non smokers adverse to us smokers having our own bars?

I dont know, I'm 17. :lol: I just see it as a health concern, and the smoking ban eliminates that health concern.

Also, I thought both you and Matt were questioning the link between second hand smoke and ill health, because you said earlier you agreed with Matts post, and in Matts post he said the link between second hand smoke and ill health was a fairy tale. :ninja:

Matt
01-14-2008, 03:25 PM
I see the link between second-hand smoke and ill health very, very clearly. I've seen it through research and I've seen it in my family and in the families of friends. To me, its proven, just like the link between bad beef and sickness.

Could someone send me a link for research that disproves second-hand smoke??

You have proof that second hand smoke caused sickness in your family?

That would solve a bunch of problems Kevin, as far as I know there have been no documented illnesses from second hand smoke.

Now, if someone has asthma, it could possibly aggravate it. But it wasn't the cause.

Kevin
01-14-2008, 03:47 PM
I see the link between second-hand smoke and ill health very, very clearly. I've seen it through research and I've seen it in my family and in the families of friends. To me, its proven, just like the link between bad beef and sickness.

Could someone send me a link for research that disproves second-hand smoke??

You have proof that second hand smoke caused sickness in your family?

That would solve a bunch of problems Kevin, as far as I know there have been no documented illnesses from second hand smoke.

Now, if someone has asthma, it could possibly aggravate it. But it wasn't the cause.

No proof, because the science to actually tie the two in an actual patient is very hard. But, my grandmother died of breast cancer and my aunt died of lung cancer and the link between second hand smoke and lung/breast cancer have been proven in my eyes. My aunt lived in a non-smoking family entirely, but worked as a waitress in a bar for 12 years. My grandmother on the other hand had a husband that smoked, although she did not. Also, these are not the same side of the family tree, so while I cant rule out the possibility of genetics playing a factor, I know the genetics are not connected in the case of my aunt and grandma.

Again, the ability to link in a physical patient that smoking was the main cause of the cancer is very hard and not available. But, in independant research the links and trends have been proven (see links below).

The advantages of smoking are not there. The disadvantages are fairly clear. Ya shouldn't smoke. Its fairly black and white, IMO.


Links to scientific articles on the subject of second hand smoke and breast cancer and lung cancer:

http://www.ocat.org/healtheffects/breastcancer.html

http://www.ocat.org/healtheffects/lungcancer.html

Matt
01-14-2008, 03:53 PM
Okay, I can go with that Kevin. And I am very sorry for your losses.

I wasn't arguing that directly smoking wasn't bad for you, it clearly is. Just that second hand smoke has not caused any illnesses as far as I know.

Sounds like your people smoked themselves no?

IWasSentWest
01-14-2008, 03:57 PM
people get lung cancer from second hand smoke alot more than u'd think. my dad smokes...my sister smokes..i smoke. im an idiot..i know it. people who smoke are asking for a death wish. but u only get one life, so do what the hell u want

Mattrick
01-14-2008, 04:18 PM
I'll bitch as much as I like Mattrick, people who do smoke should have the freedom to have smoking only bars where the non smokers are free not to enter.

I've got no problem going outside for a smoke, at all. What is the big deal anyways. I prefer smoking outside, anyways. Smokers shouldn't have the freedom to do anything. Smokers have had all the freedoms and non-smokers have had to put up with it. Movie theatres just to be filled with smoke. I couldn't deal with that and I smoke. Perhaps people that drink should be allowed to just drink where ever and whenever they want, it's their freedom.

We bitched about it leading up to the ban and then we just said whatever. The only time it's bothersome is when it's raining or really cold. When it's tolerable (75% of the time for me) I love it. Another forum I frequent is full of Brits and they made a thread about for complaining about it. So, it's not just you. In my experience, plenty of brits don't like it.

As for 'smoking' bars, how you going to accomplish that. It's friday, you and your friends are hyped for the bar but half of you smoke and half don't. Are you saying you'd rather bring friends who don't smoke to a bar full of smokers or go to a bar where you have to go outside to light up?

IWasSentWest
01-14-2008, 04:21 PM
very good point mattrick. i totally agree

i hate when im in a place and when u walk in its like u just smoked a pack from just breathing the damned air. i smoke, but damn that much smoke is just annoying. i like a fresh breath every now and again...im only human

Kevin
01-14-2008, 04:31 PM
Okay, I can go with that Kevin. And I am very sorry for your losses.

I wasn't arguing that directly smoking wasn't bad for you, it clearly is. Just that second hand smoke has not caused any illnesses as far as I know.

Sounds like your people smoked themselves no?

Sorry, I wasnt very clear at all about whether they smoked or people around them smoked. I will edit in order to clarify.

Jon
01-15-2008, 01:13 AM
I'll have to search and find out if that happened. Prisons and some other institutions have been given exempt status. But Jon, going back to what you said about smoking bars being bound to crop up - they can't - it became the law throughout the UK in July last year.

Even if said bars were "private clubs" like I described in my post?

If not then your law is poorly worded. Its funny that with all the money tobacco lobbys have that there wouldn't be an exemption for a private club.

Darkthoughts
01-15-2008, 03:41 AM
I've got no problem going outside for a smoke, at all. What is the big deal anyways. I prefer smoking outside, anyways.
I don't mind smoking outside when its dry, but when its tipping down with rain (as it does from about November to May here) it makes me wish I could smoke inside.


Smokers shouldn't have the freedom to do anything.
Why not? That doesn't make any sense, if a smoker has a designated place to go where he/she doesn't affect non smokers, then whats the problem?


Smokers have had all the freedoms and non-smokers have had to put up with it. Movie theatres just to be filled with smoke. I couldn't deal with that and I smoke. Perhaps people that drink should be allowed to just drink where ever and whenever they want, it's their freedom.
We've never been allowed to smoke in cinemas over here, even before the ban, so thats not something I've ever experienced - but I'm sure it'd be pretty gross. The only time and place I ever smoke however, is at the pub.
But why are you saying that people who don't smoke have more rights than people who do? Its not a right, its a choice. I can't see any fairness in saying "Smoking bars should not be allowed because its unfair that non smokers wouldn't want to go in them." Non smokers have the monopoly on the pubs/bars/restaurants/work places - if theres a handful of places they wouldn't want to go in I don't see it as being any hardship!


We bitched about it leading up to the ban and then we just said whatever. The only time it's bothersome is when it's raining or really cold. When it's tolerable (75% of the time for me) I love it. Another forum I frequent is full of Brits and they made a thread about for complaining about it. So, it's not just you. In my experience, plenty of brits don't like it.
Because 75% of the year it is raining over here.


As for 'smoking' bars, how you going to accomplish that. It's friday, you and your friends are hyped for the bar but half of you smoke and half don't. Are you saying you'd rather bring friends who don't smoke to a bar full of smokers or go to a bar where you have to go outside to light up?
It wouldn't cause that sort of conundrum for me. Only two people in my regular pub social circle don't smoke and they both said (as we were discussing why there weren't designated smoking pubs a few weeks back) that they'd come in the smoking pub if there was one.

On the other hand, one of these friends and I quite often go out for a meal in the week, and if I'm with her alone I don't smoke at all - so you see, I'm happy to be flexible.

But I'm not saying that non smokers have more rights, which you seemed to imply, I'm saying that - sure the ban is good for the majority and I have no problem adhering to it, but a concession could be made by way of smoking pubs, which wouldn't adversely affect the non smokers. As the ban stands however, it caters to only one party.


Even if said bars were "private clubs" like I described in my post?

If not then your law is poorly worded. Its funny that with all the money tobacco lobbys have that there wouldn't be an exemption for a private club.

I know, its bizarre but its also typical British Government legislation. You've got to remember how small we are - we don't have separate state (county) laws here, its one rule for all as decided by Parliment.
The law isn't poorly worded, its strictly worded ;)