BTVSAT - Round 2: 2000s (Bracket 2)

[mae]

Lost
vs.
Carnivàle

Previously on BTVSAT:

Lost beat Sons of Anarchy (76.00%) (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?11550)
Carnivàle beat Breaking Bad (60.00%) (http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?11690)

[Mattrick]

Lost no doubt. Looks like some shows that beat out better shows might have justice served. I can't see Carnivale's fanbase upending Lost.

http://odoe.net/jackfaces/images/jack_lazer.gif

[turtlex]

A consideration should be mentioned however, that LOST was a network show and free to watch, where as Carnivale required a subscription to HBO. That being said - their base audiences are therefore vastly different.

Um, I voted for Carnivàle.

[mae]

Well most people do get HBO, don't they. And if not, there's always DVD and Blu-ray and digital downloads. Some of the most acclaimed and decorated series are from cable channels nowadays, because of the freedom.

[turtlex]

Actually, only one of my friends subscribes to HBO. I subscribe on and off, but not always.

I just meant, in reality, more people had access to LOST and it was FREE... so more people have probably seen LOST than Carnivàle.

[haunted.lunchbox]

Lost all the way, but I loved Carnivale!

[fernandito]

LOST, the greatest show ever.

[OchrisO]

I really really like Lost, but I had to vote for Carnivale.

Plus, I'd like to see the lamentation and gnashing of teeth if Lost loses.

Feev and Mattrick's heads might explode.

So, if you aren't sure on what to vote and just want to see hilarity ensue, vote for Carnivale. :)


*I am OchrisO and I approve of this message.

[fernandito]

You bastard. You evil, evil bastard ! :lol:

[OchrisO]

Haha. Maybe I will go do some "door to door" grassroots campaigning to people who never comment on these threads via private message. :rofl:

[DoctorDodge]

Not seen Carnivale, but it does look like my kind of show, and Chris's suggestion made me laugh, so I voted for that.

Kidding, guys! (And when I say "guys", i am of course referring to feev, Ricky and Mattrick.) Nah, I'm not gonna vote in this round, although who knows, maybe i'll finally get round to seeing Carnivale this week and make an informed decision!

[Heather19]

I love both of these shows, but I had to vote for Lost.

And DD, I know you're going to love Carnivale. Let me know when you watch it.

[fernandito]

:wub: You made the right choice.

[kluker]

Carnivale
I tried to watch Lost but could never get into it.

[fernandito]

Come on, Lost needs to be in the lead by a more significant margin.

[DoctorDodge]

Just be glad it's ahead, feev. Even it is only a few votes, at least it's close against such a heavily praised show like Carnivale, and not barely a couple of votes ahead of, say, a Hanna-Barbera cartoon. Definitely be thankful for that much!

[haunted.lunchbox]

I have a feeling some people will vote against Lost just because it is Lost...

[fernandito]

Just be glad it's ahead, feev. Even it is only a few votes, at least it's close against such a heavily praised show like Carnivale, and not barely a couple of votes ahead of, say, a Hanna-Barbera cartoon. Definitely be thankful for that much!

Now that you've put that in perspective ... :lol:


I have a feeling some people will vote against Lost just because it is Lost...

Don't doubt it for a second.

[mae]

Out of spite? But why?

[haunted.lunchbox]

Out of spite? But why?

Not out of spite so much, but more psychological. Lost has a huge adoring fan base, and many people either didn't have the time to invest in it, or didn't see enough of it to see why some people are so obsessed, and because of this they judge it harshly. It's kind of like how some people hate the Yankees I guess.

[haunted.lunchbox]

I may not have made a good Yankee comparison, because people hate the Yankees because unequal distribution of wealth. What I mean is, some people like to route for the underdog, or go against the grain.

[DoctorDodge]

I wouldn't say I aim to root for the underdog, but I do have a tendency to root more for the best UK shows than the best US. However, this is more to do with attachment than anything else: if Life on Mars had made it past the first round against Arrested Development and went up against Lost, as much I enjoyed Lost, I'd vote for Life on Mars in a heartbeat. However, this would have as much to do with me not following Lost every week when it was on as much as catching Life on Mars every single week and loving every single episode (even if there were only 16 of them).

Fortunatly, in a round like this, it's easy for me to be fairer to both shows, as both I can only watch on dvd or on the internet now in marathon chunks. I still don't know whether I'll vote for Lost or not, but I will aim to watch Carnivale during the weekend, hopefully.

[Mattrick]

Actually, only one of my friends subscribes to HBO. I subscribe on and off, but not always.

I just meant, in reality, more people had access to LOST and it was FREE... so more people have probably seen LOST than Carnivàle.

Not like others HBO/Shotime shows haven't had great popularity.

[mae]

Right. The Sopranos was a cultural phenomenon.

[Mattrick]

Everyone watches Dexter. Entourage has a huge following. And Boardwalk Empire is doing really well. Carnivale simply wasn't a show that appealled to everyone.

[Iwritecode]

I don't think I've ever seen a single HBO series. Even after they started airing them on basic cable.

[mae]

I don't think I've ever seen a single HBO series. Even after they started airing them on basic cable.

Boy are you missing out on a ton of awesome.

[turtlex]

<- Doesn't watch Dexter ( so not everyone does ).

[haunted.lunchbox]

<- Doesn't watch Dexter ( so not everyone does ).

Second this.

[fernandito]

He wasn't being literal, he meant 'everyone' as in 'a shitload of people' :lol:

[Erin]

LOST!

I seriously loved the show and it's one of the few shows that I've actually watched from start to finish, on the air, in real-time and not on DVD or on the computer. I really loved the routine my friends and I developed of getting together each week to eat dinner and watch LOST. Good stuff.

[haunted.lunchbox]

LOST!

I seriously loved the show and it's one of the few shows that I've actually watched from start to finish, on the air, in real-time and not on DVD or on the computer. I really loved the routine my friends and I developed of getting together each week to eat dinner and watch LOST. Good stuff.

You look like a more attractive version of Charlotte. Case-in-point http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b81423_losts_charlotte_shes_aliiive.html

[OchrisO]

Everyone watches Dexter. Entourage has a huge following. And Boardwalk Empire is doing really well. Carnivale simply wasn't a show that appealled to everyone.

And that's not even mentioning True Blood, which is crazy popular now in the wake of all the vampire fever that has struck the world.

[Darkthoughts]

LOST, the greatest show ever.

QFT. For me personally Lost is the greatest tv show of all time. I have never enjoyed, nor become more invested in anything else I've ever seen on tv, I think it's utterly deserving of the title :thumbsup:

[Mattrick]

Everyone watches Dexter. Entourage has a huge following. And Boardwalk Empire is doing really well. Carnivale simply wasn't a show that appealled to everyone.

And that's not even mentioning True Blood, which is crazy popular now in the wake of all the vampire fever that has struck the world.


I've never seen it. I'm not fortunate enough to get pay channels, I couldn't even pay for them because I don't have digital cable. 72 channels with at least 60 have unwatching stuff most of the time. It's been all dvd for Dexter, Sopranos, In Treatment and Six Feet Under. Though I've been downloading In Treatment and Dexter.








I think Lost is a great show, but I can't call it the greatest of all time. Too much love for Sopranos, SFU and In Treatment. Lost is ranked with BSG, Dexter and 24. Really entertaining, but is more plot driven and lower quality acting/directing. The acting in them isn't bad, pretty good actually. Just compared to say Tony Soprano or David Fisher, no comparison. If it comes down to Lost vs. Sopranos, I have to go with Sopranos. Same reason I'd pick Fraiser over Seinfeld for best sitcom. Just so much talent involved.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBVcI8kZwqw

One of my favourite scenes.


This is my favourite scene from Lost.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruKx4LsYBDc

[fernandito]

LOST, the greatest show ever.

QFT. For me personally Lost is the greatest tv show of all time. I have never enjoyed, nor become more invested in anything else I've ever seen on tv, I think it's utterly deserving of the title :thumbsup:

Co-sign. I think one of the reasons that the show resonated so strongly with me (and continues to do so) is because it tackled themes that hit very close to home. Jack's internal struggle with faith, his conflicts with his father, his violent obsessions, Locke's fear of moving forward into unknown territory both philosophically and figuratively, the leaps of faith, it's such an amazing show and I've never seen , nor do I think I'll ever see a show that handled it quite like LOST did.

[haunted.lunchbox]

I love Lost, but Jack threw too many Mantrums. I hated him until the last episode.

[Mattrick]

Locke's fear of moving forward into unknown territory both philosophically and figuratively.

Do you mean before the island? Because jumped into whatever the island threw at him with both feet and tested his faith on more than one occasion. I never thought of Locke of being afraid to venture somewhere new, but his inability to get past things. He didn't have the ability to forgive himself for being weak and he was always too willing to trust. It's what makes his character such a tragedy because he grows so much on the island, discovering strentghts he didn't know he had, but off the island he was still weak and pathetic. Technically, his whole character is him venturing somewhere new, with zeal.

[fernandito]

Even on the island he was still afraid, he asked for help more than once because he was afraid of moving forward alone ...

"It's a two man job , jack, i can't do this alone."

[Mattrick]

Even on the island he was still afraid, he asked for help more than once because he was afraid of moving forward alone ...

"It's a two man job , jack, i can't do this alone."

Yet he took plenty of initiative wanting to get into the hatch, taking over the button pushing, blowing up the submarine. His problem lied in that he wanted to believe he was special on the island, so he wouldn't be weak and pathetic. When he left the island so seemed to his aura of special and he realized he'd been not only been fooled but fooling himself, into thinking he had a purpose. He was just a broken old man. It was his own desire that led him to destroy the computer in the hatch. Locke clearly wasn't afraid of much, he took everything in zeal. Locke was alone most of the show, on his own mission. Between spending his time digging around the hatch with Boone, spending time hunting alone, running off to save Eko, being leader of The Others.

[fernandito]

I don't know how you can say that he 'clearly wasn't afraid' when he was clearly afraid of

Killing his father, the source and origin of so much of his misery, taking on the hatch alone, scared of moving forward with Helen, etc.

Taking the initiative on anything doesn't mean you're not afraid to tackle the obstacle at hand. And besides, it's not that he wasn't afraid,

it's that he was imbued with a false sense of 'specialness' after being manipulated by Smokie into believing that he was special.

[Mattrick]

I don't know how you can say that he 'clearly wasn't afraid' when he was clearly afraid of

Killing his father, the source and origin of so much of his misery, taking on the hatch alone, scared of moving forward with Helen, etc.

You'reassuming because he needed help he was afraid. He wasn't afraid of kill his father, that's preposterous. He didn't want to do it but he still wanted him dead, didn't want to sink as low as his father, so he got Sawyer to take revenge instead.


Taking the initiative on anything doesn't mean you're not afraid to tackle the obstacle at hand. And besides, it's not that he wasn't afraid,

it's that he was imbued with a false sense of 'specialness' after being manipulated by Smokie into believing that he was special.

Smokie didn't give him a false sense. The island did. It was his communion with the island that made him feel special. Locke didn't even talk with Smoke until like day 100 something and he sure didn't wait till the end of season 4 to think he was special. Locke problem was that he couldn't take action. He let Randy at the box company walk all over him, his father and that was why Helen left him, because he couldn't move on or do anything to change anything. When he started walking again on the island, all he did was take action, take control. Locke in the end was special as he seemed to be the only one who believed in the goodness in all people and was thus far too trusting. In the end his trust got him killed. And according to the last season and about the light in the island, it makes sense the island gave so much tools for him to use.

[mae]

Lost is moving to the Quarterfinals, having received 12 votes (63.16%). Its score is now 139.16.

[fernandito]

You'reassuming because he needed help he was afraid. [spoiler]He wasn't afraid of kill his father, that's preposterous. He didn't want to do it but he still wanted him dead, didn't want to sink as low as his father, so he got Sawyer to take revenge instead.



He didn't want to sink as low as his father ? By killing him you mean ? You're right, I mean it's not like he would sink so low so as to throw the knife into the back of a woman and killing her ... oh ... wait ...



Smokie didn't give him a false sense. The island did. It was his communion with the island that made him feel special. Locke didn't even talk with Smoke until like day 100 something and he sure didn't wait till the end of season 4 to think he was special. Locke problem was that he couldn't take action. He let Randy at the box company walk all over him, his father and that was why Helen left him, because he couldn't move on or do anything to change anything. When he started walking again on the island, all he did was take action, take control. Locke in the end was special as he seemed to be the only one who believed in the goodness in all people and was thus far too trusting. In the end his trust got him killed. And according to the last season and about the light in the island, it makes sense the island gave so much tools for him to use.

The island healed him, yes, just like it did to Rose. Yet Rose didn't believe she was special, or in tune with the island. It was Smokie appearing before him in S1 , showing him the "eye of the island" (most likely a vision in which John was special) that propelled him forward in his believe that he was somehow the Messiah reincarnated. Smokie needed the legend of John Locke to grow long to give him access to Jacob during the latter portion of the show.

[Mattrick]

He didn't want to sink as low as his father ? By killing him you mean ? You're right, I mean it's not like he would sink so low so as to throw the knife into the back of a woman and killing her ... oh ... wait ...

There is a big difference between protecting the island and killing for revenge. Lest not forget he was being told to kill his father or leave. Locke was not above killing. He just didn't believe in selfish killing. Killing Naomi was for the island or at least that's how he believed. Yes he wanted his father to die, but he's too good of a person to do it himself. Locke was like a soldier for the island, killing his father would have made him a murderer


The island healed him, yes, just like it did to Rose. Yet Rose didn't believe she was special, or in tune with the island. It was Smokie appearing before him in S1 , showing him the "eye of the island" (most likely a vision in which John was special) that propelled him forward in his believe that he was somehow the Messiah reincarnated. Smokie needed the legend of John Locke to grow long to give him access to Jacob during the latter portion of the show.

I think Smokie showed Locke why they were there, 'the light'. Locke realized it's importance. Not much about that. The legend of John Locke meant nothing to 815 survivors as it was The Others he had to convince. The people smoke REALLY manipulated to gain access to Jacob was Richard and Ben. Locke was merely someone working using his own desire to be important that was used because of this. It's was Locke's own drive that fueled smokies desires, he didn't have to be manipulated. Smokie saw a broken man and gave him a goal. However he directly manipulated Richard to telling him Locke would be leader and directly manipulated Ben into killing Jacob.

Smokie even knew Locke so well that Locke wouldn't move the island himself; allowing him to form his coup on Jacob, using Locke's time travelling situation to his advantage and when he finally left the island after, used that to his advantage as well. It's hard to say exactly if Smokie planned it all or if he just made it up as he went. It seems to me he masterminded it all or at least had it figured out by the third season.