Suzannah and the Chap storyline - love it or hate it? *spoilers*

[horseshoe]

warning: DT7 spoilers inside!
although I prefer happier endings, I could live with the ending of Roland being reset to the desert.

Unfortunately the problem in these books, which prevents them from being the ultimate epos á la "lord of the rings", is that the story became quite ludicrous with book 6.

The whole idea to get a main character pregnant, and then with a demon-child was a bad choice, and SK f*cked it up completely by basically making the whole story-arch obsolete, because if you examine it closely, the whole Suzannah pregnant bullsh*t only resulted in a disgusting, but ultimately powerless CK child which totally failed to deliver anything but some gross reading.

I got books 6+7 years ago, started to read, but always quit again, despite my longing to find out what happens next to the party. I even read the whole 13 books of "The Wheel Of Time" by Robert Jordan, until I finally decided to listen to the final 2 Tower books via the audiobook version.

Ok, finally I decided to face the ludicrous Suzannah story again, and when I reached the part where the baby "gets faxed over to Mia", I was first totally confused. WTF? There are now suddenly 2 bodies, and Suzannah isn't giving birth? I had to listen to this part like 3 times because I wanted to read an explanation how the hell Suzannah split into 2 bodies again, one being the demon, and the other herself. Of course there is no "explanation" besides some funny hair-dryer machine on Suzannah's head.

Ok, so now Mia gives birth and gets eaten. Pretty gross reading, and not quite after my liking, but anyway. Unfortunately this baby turned out to be just a weak clone of Gollum "good fish... Mordred is ah-hungry", who has a stupid daddy complex for quite a while and does nothing of any importance until Roland wastes him in a pretty unspectacular way.

The "happy endling" for Jake, Suze, Oy, and Eddie in another dimension was total BS either. Who wants to see his heroes returned to a boring ordinary life? Not me.
The part with the breakers and the assault was pretty good again.

To sum it up: Stephen King had his hand on an epic story, but he screwed it up. Maybe he can fix it, by writing 2 alternate books 6+7, or at least write a book about Roland's adventures when he gets reset to the desert...

So to reply to SK: I didn't fly through the story to reach the end, and I kinda like the ending, but the last 2 books were to the most part ridiculous crap any high school student could imagine a better story, and you ruined your Epos!

[horseshoe]

well, the whole idea to have a girl without legs in this epic was a bad choice.
Even SK got sick of his leg-less lady, so he gave her legs magically for book6.
Unfortunately the whole Suze being pregnant story turned out to be utter rubbish.

What I liked most about the Dark Tower was the setting in a post-apocalyptic world with broken down high-tech and cool Gunslingers, and the stories about Roland's earlier ka-tet (Wizard and Glas).

[Sickrose]

I am sorry to hear you didint like the last two novels!

Whereas the whole Chap story wasnt my fav - I can see why it was needed though. From the start Roland is this awesome gunslinger who seems invincible. However, there is no feeling of peril, in this, because Roland seems like he could have just sauntered all the way to the Dark Tower blasting enemies out of his way with his supernatural speed with the gun.

The way I see it, King needed to have an element of peril for Roland; be it the loss of his fingers, sanity (potentially), arthritus or the Chap in the latter novels.

I think the specre of Mordred hanging over the tet was truly threatening.

Although, you find the whole demon thing ludicrous but what about a talking train... ;)

[horseshoe]

DT7 spoilers inside!
If Mordred wouldn't have turned out to be a gross joke with a daddy complex, I might agree with you, but as SK has written it it turned out to be a catastrophy.
The "showdown" at the campfire was a joke, he should have built up Mordred to a more powerful foe, then the whole annoying pregnancy/Mordred story would at least have had a thrilling ending.
The sole achievement of Mordred was to eliminate a billybumbler? gimme a break.

Maybe Mordred should have wasted Eddie, instead of this "bad luck sh*t happens" moment that ended Eddies life.


A talking train with AI is perfectly reasonable.

[Jean]

please, everybody, mark the DT7 spoilers

[Delah]

The way I see it, King needed to have an element of peril for Roland; be it the loss of his fingers, sanity (potentially), arthritus or the Chap in the latter novels.

But didn't we already have that with Walter? His ancient enemy, almost immortal (like Roland) lwho'd engineered so many of the pivotal moments of Roland's life (Susan, Jericho Hill, his mother's death, Jake's death). Did we really need to introduce a new character to ursurp Flagg/Walter's place? Especially one that was so poorly written?

[Sickrose]

The way I see it, King needed to have an element of peril for Roland; be it the loss of his fingers, sanity (potentially), arthritus or the Chap in the latter novels.

But didn't we already have that with Walter? His ancient enemy, almost immortal (like Roland) lwho'd engineered so many of the pivotal moments of Roland's life (Susan, Jericho Hill, his mother's death, Jake's death). Did we really need to introduce a new character to ursurp Flagg/Walter's place? Especially one that was so poorly written?

I see your point. Hwv, Roland had managed to avoid Walter before. I thought his own son was more of a threat. Born of the line of Eld, more of a Gunslinger than Walter.

[CyberGhostface]

Mordred is quite possibly the worst thing King has ever done in his entire canon. I want to know what King was smoking when he thought Roland's final challenge before the Tower should be an emo spider with diarrhea over his eternal nemesis since the beginning of the series (and indeed, a nemesis that has been with King since the beginning of his career). That alone knocked down The Dark Tower over the pedestal I had once placed it on in my head.

[Jean]

as I said, please mark your DT7 spoilers

[Letti]

as I said, please mark your DT7 spoilers

I edited the title of the thread (just to be on the save side) I hope this way the spoilers may not make any harm.

Anyway,
horseshoe, when you build up your opinion it's better face the fact that many big fans like the last two books as they are.
For my part I cannot stand the part with Susannah in New York, oh so happy ending but it doesn't disturb me and the most important thing is it doesn't ruin the book for me. And the fact that many DT junkies love that part makes me accept the decision of the Wordslinger.

[Advocaat]

When i read the first 4 books (Especially 2 + 3), i thought the Dark Tower is going to be one of my all time favorites like the Lord of the Rings. It was an amazing story, a perfect mixture of western, science-fiction, romance and horror. As time went on, the novels started getting weird. Especially book 6 and 7 are really weird. (I do like book 6 more than book 5 though).

Mordred... sucks. At least for me. I think there was no need for Mordred to exist in the novels at all. Books 5 + 6 deal with Susannahs pregnancy - And when Mordred is finally born, he does nothing but spy the ka-tet, bring some gore in the story and kill a billy bumbler. I mean - seriously?

And i still dont understand why King decided to get Flagg killed by spider boy. The man in black was one of best enemies ive ever seen- And than, when we finally get to see him again, Mordred kills him in like 2 pages.

I have to say, i am kinda angry with King. Im re-reading DT7 right now, and if there wherent that many little things that annoy me (Like the Mordred stuff. But the 19/99 and King himself are really annoying, too.), the book would be awesome. Im even okay with the way

Eddie dies.

But, sadly, i think King ruined his story. :cry:

(I do love the first 4 books though.)

[horseshoe]

sure the books are still enjoyable.
I'm just disappointed that King failed to achieve something as epic as "the lord of the rings" or "the wheel of time" - mainly because the Susannah-Mia-Mordred arch was so damn weak.

The setting of the books is awesome. One of the best ever. I just love the Mix of Western with broken down high-tech. The ending was quite ok too. I'm only mad that he wasted so much space in his final 2 books with crappy stories.

[Letti]

sure the books are still enjoyable.
I'm just disappointed that King failed to achieve something as epic as "the lord of the rings" or "the wheel of time" - mainly because the Susannah-Mia-Mordred arch was so damn weak.

Hey, check out this thread here and the poll inside:
http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/showthread.php?t=376&page=34

But here is the result of the poll if you don't wanna click:
5 - completely satisfied 43.00%
4 - satisfied, but have some minor problems with the ending 34.78%
3 - satisfied, but have some major problems with the ending 10.14%
2 - not satisfied, although there are things I liked about the ending 9.66%
1 - completely dissatisfied 2.42%

So... 78% of the people are satisfied.
It's okay to see that King has ruined the books for you (I am really sorry about that) but to say he failed... it's simply not true.

[CyberGhostface]

It's okay to see that King has ruined the books for you (I am really sorry about that) but to say he failed... it's simply not true.

Whether or not King succeeded is very much a subjective thing. Just because so many people hold a certain opinion does not make it objectively true. For example, The Shining is considered one of the best horror films ever made. I think it's a disaster. Is that opinion "simply not true" because I hold the opinion of a minority?

[Letti]

It's okay to see that King has ruined the books for you (I am really sorry about that) but to say he failed... it's simply not true.

Whether or not King succeeded is very much a subjective thing.

I couldn't agree more.


Is that opinion "simply not true" because I hold the opinion of a minority?

It's just my opinion, no more no less.
I don't think King could have written an ending everyone would have been happy with. And the fact that it's the most complex and complicated series in the history (my opinion again) the fact that still 78% of the fans are satisfied gives me the courage to say he didn't fail.
It's just my opinion, no more no less.

[pathoftheturtle]

Besides, what that is, is 78% of the people who came here and voted. I see what you're saying, Letti, but I think that we can only say that it's not really proven that he failed or proven that he did not fail. Of course, I am not sure even that enduring popularity of LotR proves that that series is truly great. Yeah, pretty subjective.

I know a lot of readers didn't like Mordred, and I can understand that. It's not hard for me to imagine that being better developed. However, for why SK included him at all, I think it's fairly clear that it goes back to the ring in DT3... and thereby back to the whole storyline of the boy Jake. I honestly believe that if he hadn't followed up at all on that set of issues, more central to TDT than issues of what is beloved in other works, then that would have been even more anti-climactic, on a level which could not ultimately be covered up.

[CyberGhostface]

I think Susannah's pregnancy should have been an issue, but to retcon it into being Roland's son and then having him as the main antagonist of the final book of the series by replacing one of King's oldest major villains was a very bad move on King's part.

[Letti]

Besides, what that is, is 78% of the people who came here and voted. I see what you're saying, Letti, but I think that we can only say that it's not really proven that he failed or proven that he did not fail.

Well, I must agree with you. The best is if we can see and understand both sides.

My intention was to let horseshoe know that the way I see it only the future can tell of this series gets lost among the other books or it gets high and one day will be taught in high school.

[horseshoe]

My intention was to let horseshoe know that the way I see it only the future can tell of this series gets lost among the other books or it gets high and one day will be taught in high school.

If Harry Potter gets taught in High School, anything can happen.

The Dark Tower wont get lost for sure, all I said was that King did not deliver a highly thrilling finale - the last 2 books very so lala, mostly because of the Susanna/chap/Mordred stuff.

In LOTR you have a buildup to a massive battle at the end.
In "the Wheel of Time" you will also have this. (new book comes out this November!:excited:)
In The Dark Tower you have a disgusting spider crapping his pants with daddy issues, and a crimson king who gets erased by a weirdo.:cry:

The first 5 books are great, the 2 final ones pretty weak. That's why I say he screwed up to create a perfect epic Saga.
Maybe he'll deliver something in the future to fix it. I'd love to read more about Roland, past and future. (and about Midworld)

[Jean]

In LOTR you have a buildup to a massive battle at the end.
That's the main reason why a lot of people are disappointed with the last books. King "failed" to deliver what they had expected. Instead of accepting the book as it is, with its unexpected turns and unpredicted development, too many readers want King to be just like everybody else, and to come up to existing expectations, to explore the explored. How about maybe he ventured beyond expectations? I argued many a time that there never was supposed to be any epic battle, western-style showdown or any other tired crap of the kind; The Dark Tower is a different book that doesn't have to conform to any genre tradition, not even in order to please the majority.

[Letti]

Maybe that's why I was happy with the ending. I am not fond of big (200 pages or more) battles.

[horseshoe]

King "failed" to deliver what they had expected. Instead of accepting the book as it is, with its unexpected turns and unpredicted development, too many readers want King to be just like everybody else, and to come up to existing expectations, to explore the explored.
You constantly refuse to see my point.
I did not want him deliver something "expected", just something - anything to keep the story on a high level, to bring at least "unexpected" turns that don't make me roll my eyes or bore me.

You basically say that people who criticize anything in the story are literal intellectual babies.
Whatever, maybe I am just sad because the story ended. I think I did not want Roland to reach the tower just yet, I wanted more of the journey.

[Sickrose]

In LOTR you have a buildup to a massive battle at the end.
That's the main reason why a lot of people are disappointed with the last books. King "failed" to deliver what they had expected. Instead of accepting the book as it is, with its unexpected turns and unpredicted development, too many readers want King to be just like everybody else, and to come up to existing expectations, to explore the explored. How about maybe he ventured beyond expectations? I argued many a time that there never was supposed to be any epic battle, western-style showdown or any other tired crap of the kind; The Dark Tower is a different book that doesn't have to conform to any genre tradition, not even in order to please the majority.

I really agree with this . For me an epic battle could have ended up pretty lame. I ecpected it to happen and I was glad it didint because it seemed like a tired idea to me too. If there wqs a battle it might not hav pleased everyone as well. Some people might havbe thought the battle was not good enough or exciting enough etc to end the book.

[horseshoe]

I didnt say or mean that I wanted an epic battle. I just used LOTR as an example for a long story where the last third does not get boring (like the Mordred stuff).
Mordred as the son of Roland (and the CK however) was promising, but ultimately turned out to be more annoying. Nearly seems that Stephen wanted to end if for good too quickly.

Also I used Wheel of time , because it has the same motive the dark tower is based on, hence the title.

[razz]

Fucking hate how that call the damned kid "chap". It makes it as if they're referring to a horrid blister on her crippled ass.

[Brice]

It's okay to see that King has ruined the books for you (I am really sorry about that) but to say he failed... it's simply not true.

Whether or not King succeeded is very much a subjective thing. Just because so many people hold a certain opinion does not make it objectively true. For example, The Shining is considered one of the best horror films ever made. I think it's a disaster. Is that opinion "simply not true" because I hold the opinion of a minority?

Yes, basically...your opinion is negated by the overwhelming opinions of others thus your new opinion is now that it is "one of the best horror films ever made". Congratulations on your new found assimilation. :grouphug: :P

[Jean]

hey, hey, wait! bears are with Cyber on the Shining subject!... they can't assimilate us all

[Brice]

Ya' think? :borg: :evil:

[Jean]

positive

they don't call us "bears" for nothing

our name is le-... er... multitude

[Delacroix]

Maybe I'll be alone with my opinion here, but I think Mordred was bascially a very very good idea. Why? Because when it came out, I was annoyed by the fact that everything was way too easy for Roland and his Tet. Thinking of the first books, the 5 and 6 looked as if the danger was gone. I really liked the way they were constantly on the run, avoiding letal creatures (lobstrorities), bad health...
So when everyhting started to be very easy for our fellows, I got bored. Then appears what is supposed to be a really nasty and tough oncoming enemy.

I hated how he was introduced (the mysterious demon in the ringstone was in fact in every ringtsone, being either male or female, named Mia, knew the Prims personnaly, had a sad "I wanna be mom story..." RIDICULOUS) and all th story going along with the pregnancy. Well, I liked the early beginning when Mia appears to be a new side of Susannah's personnality, and the danger it induced. I also liked the idea of pregnancy, but not the way it actually went on.

After all this, I must say I really enjoyed Mordred's come and go. I really enjoyed the mix between his maturity and the fact that he was very childish in the same time. I liked his quick-learning, how he had to handle his two forms, and how he felt miserable.

In the whole Mordred story, there is something that I didn't like at all, like you guys. I just can't stand the way Flagg died. To me it never happened. I'm in a total denial of that scene, even if the horror was pretty enjoyable. As you guys said, it was a far-too-awesome character to end up like this.
I have an additionnal thing to say: I really dislike the fact that the Man in Black, Walter, Randal Flagg, Maerly (Maerlyn for Christ sake) were merged in a single character. So you can imagine my disbelief when this character that made me shiver on his first appear in the story, died like a low man in the hands of Mordred.

Apart from that, I loved Mordred all along. I loved him true. How heartbreaking he was, the worste (best) part was when he drank his own blood to find comfort...
I also loved the idea of this jealous monster walking on the trail of the family that rejected him. He was so powerfull, so relentless! What a fight coming ahead! I thought of a fight with all the Tet against him, as a child, with massive damages for our 5 friends. I thought he would use his mind control on Jake to make him do wrong things. I imagined all the difficulties such a nasty boy would create.

So as he was chasing Roland, I liked every bit of Mordred's story. Only when he started to get ill after eating the ludicrous Limpy, I smelt the old not-so-good smell of a lame ending. And I thought "oh no, let's what I think is going to happen...not happen, please". But it did!

As we say in french: La montagne a accouché d'une souris : The mountain gave brith to a mouse. And that, my friends, was soooo desapointing.

[Brice]

Conversely, I always felt Flagg's death would be anticlimatic and sort of bland. King has always given me the impression that he thinks evil is stupid and I believe he's outright said so a few times. However Flagg died it was never going to be in a blaze or explosive way or anything like that. His death was to be as pathetic as his life, imo.

[Letti]

I don't understand why so many people find his death so pathetic in the first place. I mean the son of the Crimson King and Roland killed him. He didn't die in a car accident and he didn't fall out of the window. Yeah, I know it would have been much more enjoyable for most of you if he had died in a nice fight but to see his death pathetic? For my part I don't get it.



As we say in french: La montagne a accouché d'une souris : The mountain gave birth to a mouse. And that, my friends, was soooo desapointing.

Although I don't agree with it I think it's an incredibly good phrase.

[Delacroix]

Well, I wasn't expecting a huge fight with a handful of explosions and glimmering spells flying all over the place. I just thought that the oh-so-great Mearlyn, servant of Farson and traveller of all the worlds, wouldn't die like a low-man... I don't mind Mordred winning the fight, but it felt very dull to me. That's just how I felt, I cannot give any logical nor rationnal explanation.

Maybe that's because I was then thinking that no real enemy was left around to seriously try to stop Roland. Maybe I overestimated Flagg who just happened to be another humbug... I was just hoping he would be tougher...

Now you say his life has been pathetic, I think you're right, but I just don't like it, again, because I thought of Mearlyn like a man of power... I'll just have to get used to it I guess.

[Merlin1958]

Conversely, I always felt Flagg's death would be anticlimatic and sort of bland. King has always given me the impression that he thinks evil is stupid and I believe he's outright said so a few times. However Flagg died it was never going to be in a blaze or explosive way or anything like that. His death was to be as pathetic as his life, imo.

I couldn't agree more!! I think the end of W&G illustrated it perfectly (in my mind) What kind of showdown could Flagg and the Gunslinger really have? Flagg was an all powerful Arch-villian Magician and Roland had guns!!! They were really no match for each other, except for in some contrived, conventional scenario. Just MHO

[Serpent Raptor]

Mordred was an awesome idea--the son of Roland, also the son of Rolands arch enemy? Cool idea, but he wasn't used enough imo, and his death was too quick and anticlimactic.
Delacroix "I thought he would use his mind control on Jake to make him do wrong things. I imagined all the difficulties such a nasty boy would create."

Yeah, I thought that as well. It was a bit annoying how mordred never met eddie nor Jake. I wondered how the it would go down. And with Jake and Mordred both being kids, it would have been interetsing to see how they talked to each other and maybe even tried to convince the other to join them.

[Brainslinger]

I hoped there'd be a second encounter between Susannah and Mordred. During the time period when Roland and Jake were in the Keystone world, following Eddie's death, she was left alone (apart from the breakers). At the time I was hoping we'd get to follow her thread more, rather than just getting a quick overview concerning her train trip and the monsters under the castle. It seemed to me that would be a cool moment for Mordred to attempt a bit of vengeance. She was comparatively alone, grieving and vulnerable. After all, she was the one who had hurt him the most at that point. (Not that I'd want him to succeed in killing her. I didn't mind her final outcome in the book, although part of me wishes she'd reach the Tower, but the same goes for the rest of the ka-tet.)

On the other hand, I guess it's good King went for something I didn't expect. I would have preferred to have had a more step by step POV from her during that thread though, Mordred or no Mordred. I understand why King may have glossed over it. The book is big enough as it is!

I agree that Mordred was way underused. The same for all the major villains in the book, with the possible exception of Sayre. He was a great villain but ultimately a top henchman and his ending was fitting. Besides his personality and mannerisms seemed a bit too close to that of Walter. (His ending was NOT fitting in my opinion. Or at least not when it happened.)

[Delah]

I would have liked more of an actual emotional connection between Mordred and the ka-tet, besides the obvious, biological one. We never got (like Serpent Raptorsaid) much interaction (or any, really) between Mordred and Eddie, or Jake. It just feels like there was a lot of unexplored territory there: The book tells us about Mordred's jealousy and lonliness over the ka-tet but we never see any examples of it besides Mordred watching them and feeling bitter. We did glimpses of Jake feeling a little jealous of Mordred for his connection to Roland, but we never saw Mordred resenting Jake for essentially "usurping" his place as Roland's son. (Whether it was coincidence or not, I love that meaning of Jake's/Jacob's name in that context). We never saw Eddie give Mordred much of a thought at all (or vice versa). Given Mordred's psychic abilities, it would have been interesting to see him invade the ka-tet's dreams, but we never saw anything like that. The whole issue with Mordred seemed like it had a lot of possibility that was never realized.


Delacroix "I thought he would use his mind control on Jake to make him do wrong things. I imagined all the difficulties such a nasty boy would create."

I never even considered that. I just got a horrible image of Mordred trying to force Jake to kill Oy. I'm *glad* that didnt happen.

[strungoutboy21]

I didn't mind the idea of Mordred at first. In the end though I thought he was a waste of a character.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I actually really liked the whole Mia/Susannah thing. It gave Sai King a break on the whole wheelchair thing... and allowed her character not to remain stagnant.

[Empath of the White]

I'm a bit late to the party, but I like Mordred. I'm glad King strayed from using him to create tension between Eddie/Roland, and reading about how involved Flagg was in creating Mordred was great. It sort of made sense--I recall he got a lucky lady pregnant in The Stand, plus there was Sylvia Pittston in Tull. Its been a while since I read the last novels, but I've started a re-read to incorporate TWTTK. Once I get to book 7 I'll be paying more attention to the fine details regarding Mordred's regression if you will. I'm certain King managed to give plausible explanations as to why Mordred didn't outright use the same powers on the ka-tet that he did on Flagg.

[BigSchu22]

...resistance is futile! Sorry, just had to throw that in there from the earlier discussion of assimilation! I'm late to this party as well, but I disliked the whole Susannah/Mia/Chap/Mordred story arc. Not because it was unexpected, just that it was sometimes confusing and it seemed as if it didn't amount to much in the end.

Also, the retcon to The Gunslinger seemed a bit contrived as did the whole Susannah/Mia posession and switching bodies. Somehow, the demon from The Gunslinger preserved Roland's semen (and allowed it to be mixed (somehow) with that of the CK's seed) and impregnated Susannah with it. I knew on my first read of The Wastelands that Susannah was impregnated by the demon and that it would not bode well for the ka-tet in the future, but I never expected this crazy explanation. I applaud King for doing the unexpected, but it just seems contrived.

Additionally, I'm confused as to the biology of Mordred. Wouldn't he be more human than demon? His DNA is a mixture of the CK, Roland, and Susannah (or Mia, which is also confusing since Susannah was the one who was actually impregnated by the oracle and Mia just took posession for the birth). The CK is himself 50% human, Roland is 100% human, and Susannah is 100% human. Not sure about the math here, but that doesn't leave much demon for Mordred. So, who is really pregnant here, Susannah or Mia?

I guess I'll have a better picture once I get back to book 6 and 7 on my current re-read (I'm on 3 right now). Maybe you guys can provide a better explanation. Mia was a spirit of the Prim made mortal by Flagg, correct? How does her biology come into play, did she just birth Mordred since Susannah was impregnated? Ugh.

[Brice]

I think the things that are unclear are intended to be unclear.

[BigSchu22]

I think the things that are unclear are intended to be unclear.

Boo, you're no fun. :unsure:

[Brice]

I think the things that are unclear are intended to be unclear.

Boo, you're no fun. :unsure:


Oh, you SO clearly do not know me. :lol:

Seriously though, I do. In the case of most of the big things that are vague I really do feel that was the intent. That is having read the series several times, the gunslinger itself somewhere around 30 times, and discussed the series here (and on the sites that were around before it) for several years.

[BigSchu22]

I think the things that are unclear are intended to be unclear.

Boo, you're no fun. :unsure:


Oh, you SO clearly do not know me. :lol:

Seriously though, I do. In the case of most of the big things that are vague I really do feel that was the intent. That is having read the series several times, the gunslinger itself somewhere around 30 times, and discussed the series here (and on the sites that were around before it) for several years.

Point taken, sir! :)

I still think that makes Mordred > 80% human? Not such a good plan there.

[BigSchu22]

I think the things that are unclear are intended to be unclear.

Boo, you're no fun. :unsure:


Oh, you SO clearly do not know me. :lol:

Seriously though, I do. In the case of most of the big things that are vague I really do feel that was the intent. That is having read the series several times, the gunslinger itself somewhere around 30 times, and discussed the series here (and on the sites that were around before it) for several years.

Point taken, sir! :)

I still think that makes Mordred > 80% human? Not such a good plan there.

[Brice]

I think the things that are unclear are intended to be unclear.

Boo, you're no fun. :unsure:


Oh, you SO clearly do not know me. :lol:

Seriously though, I do. In the case of most of the big things that are vague I really do feel that was the intent. That is having read the series several times, the gunslinger itself somewhere around 30 times, and discussed the series here (and on the sites that were around before it) for several years.

Point taken, sir! :)

I still think that makes Mordred > 80% human? Not such a good plan there.





I think the things that are unclear are intended to be unclear.

Boo, you're no fun. :unsure:


Oh, you SO clearly do not know me. :lol:

Seriously though, I do. In the case of most of the big things that are vague I really do feel that was the intent. That is having read the series several times, the gunslinger itself somewhere around 30 times, and discussed the series here (and on the sites that were around before it) for several years.

Point taken, sir! :)

I still think that makes Mordred > 80% human? Not such a good plan there.

Point doubly taken. :P


Maybe he needed to be more human than anything to make the choices he made. Perhaps if he was significantly less human he'd have made different ones.

[cupofcoffee]

I didn't care much for Mordred, either. My main gripe with it is that King fell, like so many other storytellers, into the apparently ubiquitous cliche of an unnatural demonic pregnancy. Seriously, is there any scary story where anybody just has a normal baby? For as much as King apparently liked Susannah, and as much as he seemed to want to differentiate her from other female leads, he still stuck her with this "lol magic spider demon baby" cliche. I just wasn't impressed.

DT7 spoilers
Then killing Walter. I was never the most gigantic fan of Walter as a character—he doesn't seem to have a motive other than mischief for mischief's sake. Seems to me that by the time someone reaches the age that Walter was, s/he would have outgrown directionless mischief. I'm okay with him dying, especially in the last book of King's magnum opus, but I still thought it was mishandled. He never even got a chance to menace the ka-tet before a magic demon spider baby bit him to death. Why was that enough to kill Walter? At the end of The Stand (the version I have, anyway) he's shown to reincarnate after being blown up by a damn atomic bomb. But a magic baby plucking out his eyes and drinking his blood was the true, final end of him?

I understand the time and pacing constraints, but I also thought it was dumb that Mordred was born already knowing pretty much everything about himself, Roland, his destiny, etc. And how to speak. And what guns are. And... yeah. And since Roland unceremoniously shot him into a fire at the end of the book, why was there a prophecy about Mordred killing Roland? That shit never happened, yo, and wouldn't have even come close to happening if Roland and Suze had just elected to take the car Stuttering Bill offered them before they left Odd Lane.

Mordred and the pregnancy in general probably could've been cut from King's outline entirely and nobody would have minded. As people above correctly stated, he was just a newer, slightly more genetically appropriate version of Walter anyway.

[BigSchu22]

Coffee, I was going to bring up that exact point about [I]The Stand[I], although I think he transports himself away at the last second. Eitherway, he came out alive from an atomic explosion, but was eaten to death easily.

I do think he underestimated Mordred to an extent and that surprise was a part of it, but I don't see how Mordred could over power him with his psychic trick, especially since Walter is part demon as well (I know this is revealed later in the comics, but as a powerful wizard, it still seems unplausible).

I guess we're nitpicking too much, but I agree. Take Mordred out and you're not missing much other than a questionable ending to Walter.

[Empath of the White]

If I recall correctly, Walter used some device of the Old Ones oversee the semen transfer. So I took the pregnancy backstory as means to impress us with the technological superiority of the Old Ones.

[Brainslinger]

Concerning the genetic make up of Mordred, even if he is 80% human (and that may not be the case since it appears genetic engineering is involved. Who knows how the Frankenstein wannabees changed the proportions?) I think that 20% demonic DNA goes a long way. And besides, I think the effect is as much spiritual as physical. I've often wondered if Susannah actually contributed any DNA. I wonder if Mordred is just a son of two fathers... I know that's naturally impossible but Mordred's conception was far from natural.