For
Against
Unsure
The difference between piercing ears and cutting off lumps of someone's sex organ is vast. When you pierce someone's ear, you're just putting a whole through it. When you circ someone you're doing a whole lot more than that.
http://www.norm-uk.org/function.html
btw Johnny...maybe you should make a thread about piercing children too. I'll bet that would be a hell of a debate within itself.
What's that link for Coz...I'm too scared to click it!
So, is it actually stated in scripture that it should be done?Originally Posted by R_of_G
To jews, circumcision or "Bris Malah" is what is called a "mitzvah aseh" which translates more or less as a "positive commandment" to perform a certain act. It represents the covenant made between Abraham and God in Genesis 17:1-14. It's the ceremonial welcoming into the "tribe" of new jewish males.
And why circumcision? It seems bizarre even by ceremonial standards.
Because its cruel and unecessary?!
To go at it from another angle JB, why do you think it's not an issue?
Hey that site is run by your countrymen Dark. Don't be afraid.
JB, to understand why its an issue for me or anyone else you'll have to educate yourself about it, bro. Don't just accept what you think you know. Don't even accept what a doctor tells you. Look for yourself. Its really a much bigger deal than your supposing, dd.
when i click the link my computer wants to download a file. :paranoid: turtle said no thank you.
it actually is stated in the Bible... i wish i had mine with me so i could give a verse and stuff...
but me and my sister both had our ears pierced when we were a few months old.. and since we were so young and we wore earrings for years after it has become permanent.. idk when the last time i consistently wore earrings was but my holes stay open.
and i think the comparison Johnny was making was that there are plenty of things that we force on our children that aren't necessary and that we don't give them a chance to make a decision about. i understand that circumcision can hurt the baby, but ear piercings also carry risks of creating cysts and problems.... not necessarily agreeing here, just addin my two cents
Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.
It is indeed.
Genesis - 9 And God said to Abraham, "As for you, you shall keep my covenant, you and your offspring after you throughout their generations. 10This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11You shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a(M) sign of the covenant between me and you. 12He who is(N) eight days old among you shall be circumcised. Every male throughout your generations, whether born in your house or(O) bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring, 13both he who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money, shall surely be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant. 14Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
Now we're into the realm of speculation on my part, but if I had to guess, I'd think it's akin to the ritual scarifications and ritual mutilations that are part of many tribal religions.
I believe in the Bible so don't get me wrong by what I say next. In the Old Testament sins were only forgiven by blood sacrifice. We were given a strict set of rules "commandments" that we were supposed to live by. All of this stuff did not work out, that is why Jesus came. Jesus paid the blood sacrifice for us. That is why he said " it is finished". This is of course a christian point of view, I mean no offense to anyone who has other beliefs.
Yeah, but we don't chop off the ears. The holes can heal up, unlike the foreskin. Thats the difference here.
"It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.
"When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah
yeah true.... *shrug* it is a cultural thing tho... makes about as much sense to argue about it as it does to argue about tattooing and extreme piercings in other cultures... it's just something "savage" that Americans haven't let go of. not to say it's a dumb argument, but it's just something that can't be changed universally because of the dangers it may have associated with it.
Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.
Hey that site is run by your countrymen Dark. Don't be afraid.Aha! Don't worry Turtle - not sure why it asked you to download a file, but its a medical article stating the functional role of the foreskin
I don't think it's necessary for anyone unless it's religious (my prof is married to a Muslim so her sons had to have it done) but I personally have never seen one not circumcised (not that I've seen that many... but I also don't know anyone who's seen one either). I hear it's becoming less common now, but more on the West Coast than the East, so I don't see that trend surfacing anytime soon around here. The only thing I'd really be worried about is people's reactions when they see it (like people said: locker room, dating) because everyone I know who's seen pictures says how gross it is, so I think at least right now kids would probably get teased about it. Maybe in 10 or 20 years things will change. Or maybe if I move out of the area.
As for piercing babies' ears... I personally think it doesn't make any sense and they should probably let the kid decide if they want pierced. My friends got their kid pierced and they got infected, so that was brilliant. It just seems unnecessary and a little silly to me, no offense to anyone who's done this.
I still don't think it's necessary if its for religious reasons. The reasons that Jayson kindly provided, seem archaic and nonsensical to me.
Sorry, the ethnocentrism here just hurts my brain. Maybe you didn't mean it the way I'm reading it, but I see that as a massive insult to other cultures who still circumcise for religious or health issues.
Basically from what I've always read, circumcision is used in cultures that don't bathe as much as we do because they don't have that much water lying around for foreskin-cleaning. If you don't bathe often, your foreskin can trap germs and cause infections. In cultures where we can bathe frequently, the cleanliness issue becomes irrelevant and circumcision doesn't need to be performed. So if you live in the fucking Sahara, it might be a good idea. That's just how it was explained to me in my religion and culture classes.
well, i don't take any offense. but i also don't believe that anyone paid a blood sacrifice for me or mine. since i'm jewish, i don't believe in him the way christians do. don't get me wrong, i believe that a man name joshua lived during that time. and i believe that he was a very gifted leader, with wonderful ideas and an ability to speak that was unparalleled at that time. and i believe he was cruelly murder by a government that was terrified of him. but i don't believe he was the son of god in the sense that christians believe. so how could his death relieve me of my religious obligations?
jews have a covenant with god. that covenant must not be broken. it's not about the commandments, and it's not about god needing a blood sacrifice (although i do admit, i think he could be a bit of a bastard when it came right down to it). it's about a visible symbol of the belief in the covenant between god and man. it's about giving up a piece of yourself - literally - for your god and his love. it's about accepting your place in god's eyes and accepting your place in god's world. and since a child that age is too young to do it for himself, the parents make the decision for him - as all good parents should. at least that's how i view it.
Last edited by The Lady of Shadows; 07-15-2008 at 12:29 PM. Reason: forgot a point.
I agree with you there Lisa, though I see the cultural significance, at least as far as my own American Jewish culture goes. Again. I'm glad Ella was a girl so I don't have to make this decision.
I think our society here in the US think it's just normal to have it done and dont know any different. Because it's been bashed into our heads for so long. And Ive always heard that it's not clean, leads to infection, etc. Which by my reading today is not true. I have some guy friends that arent circ'd but one guy with his first wife, wanted him to get it done. I dont know if he ever did but I know it would be very painful. Like to get your tonsils out as an adult rather than when you were young (cause I dont remember that.) but worse. Where as if they have it done as babies they really dont remember. Im still torn with which way to go...
You're going to want it.
that's why i put it in quotations... because many people look at other people's cultural customs as "savage" because they don't go along with their ideas... it seems to me that the argument here is that circumcision is a cruel and therefore savage practice... not pointing any fingers and no one used that word, but i used the word as an example of how other people often look down on different customs and practices... hope i didn't offend anyone
Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.
Nope, I think the same way you do, I just wasn't sure how you meant it. I get it now. The internet makes inflections hard to figure out. *shakes fist at internet*
i am the antithesis of ethnocentrism..
Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.
Woot, big words!
Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.
I agree with you there Lisa, though I see the cultural significance, at least as far as my own American Jewish culture goes. Again. I'm glad Ella was a girl so I don't have to make this decision.
see, i don't agree with this. i don't find it archaic and nonsensical. i think it's an important part of jewish religious and cultural heritage.
ka-mai, I played sports, was in the marines, and still spend plenty of time in locker rooms. There has been plenty of opportunity for me to be made fun of and its never happened...not once. Like I said earlier, if anyone ever teased me about it I would have simply asked them why they were looking at my dick. I really do believe the teasing would stop at that point. I'm imagining a very quiet locker room as every other guy in it is looking at the dumbass that commented on another guy's penis.
symbolism is pretty important in religion and culture in general... the circumcision is a symbol of a covenant... almost like a tattoo or a brand saying "i belong to God"... as far as the Jewish reasons are... it's not a bad thing... can't say i'd mind being branded for God...
Human kind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. That is alchemy's first law of Equivalent Exchange. In those days, we really believed that to be the world's one and only truth.
That was a very interesting article. I would probably not do it to my son. But like I said before. thand god I never had to make that decision
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