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Thread: That Thing, You Can Only Talk About If You've Finished the Series

  1. #751
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    I’ve thought of that before, though most of the time, I tend to believe that there’s a lot of resemblance between each cycle. There is no proof of that, but it is somehow so suggested that it is hard to convince ourselves that nearly everything is always different. It is true, though, that both laws of the Keystones could stand with no paradox if the quest continually involves different particulars. That would mean that, in the future, the rose will face new threats, which is possible even if the threats in fact are not simply staged by Gan; some part of the Crimson King probably does still have freedom of action. In this case, though, it is no wonder that the two Jakes ( LOL: “The Two Jakes” :LMAO ) *ahem* …that the two Jakes merge. Only one set of adventurers are needed for the particular crisis which we saw involving SK; Roland might not be pointlessly repeating himself in alternate dimensions, but that would be just what other people in them would be doing if there still were such semi-independent echoes.
    With this theory, tho, I have to wonder; could Roland’s father have lived longer on a previous occasion? Did Cuthbert visit King before Jericho Hill, or does the past of Mid-World sometimes change more drastically than to allow so simple an addition as Roland’s possession of the Horn? When Steven was dealing with the Torens of New York, it would make some sense if Roland had meanwhile been interacting with Sai Robert Browning.
    Quote Originally Posted by SynysterSaint View Post
    That was beautifully spoken, pathoftheturtle... I hadn't thought of it that way before; well done.
    Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by SynysterSaint View Post
    ...But you see, it doesn't matter how Gan intervenes with Roland; all that matters is that he does it. Roland cannot and could not possibly find his humanity and gain salvation without some intervention. Think of it as a heroin addict, if you will. You cannot simply resolve their addiction and forgo any of the withdrawal symptoms. The best you can do is be their for them and present them the opportunity; they are the one that must go through the course of cleansing. Roland's course is much like the heroin cleansing he had to help Eddie perform; only this time, the roles are somewhat reversed. Gan needs to hold Roland's hand and show him the way to gaining salvation, but in the end it must be Roland who performs. Gan cannot grant Roland his humanity and salvation any more than Roland could erase Eddie's withdrawal symptoms. ...
    I dunno, man. That may be a poor comparison, actually; Roland can’t erase such symptoms, but Roland isn’t God. Before thinking in terms of power limits, I tend to ask what moral concerns Gan may be bound by. Beneath the physical effects of drug addiction, there’s the so-called mental habit; I think that what you’re getting at is just a person’s right to their free will. Gan probably could take that away, but then the person would no longer really be a human individual. Thus, our plot analysis should focus on whether that is truly Gan’s defining motive, and whether the cycle really does avoid such violation of Roland’s autonomy and, lest any of this prove to be some kind of hypocritical elitism, simultaneously avoid all violation of the autonomy of any other soul affected by it. Yes, the first question should be whether Roland does need any kind of intervention at all, but then it IS also important to decide exactly what kind is best. Of course it matters how Gan acts; if Roland were just like Eddie then just literally holding his hand, or giving tough Cort-like supervision such as Roland did, would seem to be far more efficient than upending the time-space continuum. Are you trying to suggest that Roland would never listen to any tangible manifestation of the Supreme Being under any circumstances? The character appeared to have quite a bit of self-awareness, actually; it’s not as though he were completely without conscience. Examples like what he did with Eddie seem to show that he does respect free will in a proper degree for others, so, then, what more secrets of the universe might Gan be trying to protect?

    If Stephen King believes that inconsistency don't matter when you're laying down a moral, then I'd say that it is him who's guilty of the sort of short-sightedness he projects onto the readers. It's a good point that putting too much priority on reason can be destructive, but I don't think that I could buy it if he's implying that making sense is always inhumane.
    In short, I doubt that those who obsess over their own obsessiveness really make much progress. I regard it as religious fallacy that God supports such vicious circles. We have to be quite careful about where to draw the lines between the claim that Roland has to deal with his own problems and the claim that he has to receive some intervention, if we're to avoid some major contradiction.

  2. #752
    Traveler Wigz is on a distinguished road

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    Default King's Involvement

    since Roland is sent to do another loop. With a different outcome (presumably). There must be a new Author to re-tell the story.
    much like Browning and King. amirite? King only told but one the many loops Roland has done.
    Maybe someone in the next century someone will tell roland's "horn" loop because at the moment King owns this story.
    Last edited by sarah; 04-26-2010 at 06:19 AM. Reason: edited by sarah to remove spoiler tags. I added it to the title.

  3. #753
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    That's the same way I look it, actually. I'm glad someone else has brought this theory up; I don't think I've seen it mentioned anywhere else
    Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.

    The man in black fled across the desert,
    and the gunslinger followed.


  4. #754
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    Wow! HiWigz, welcome to the site. Can you please edit that first post with spoiler tags ( just in case) there are many here who have'nt finished the series yet.
    You can access spoiler tags by clicking on the icon that looks radioactive on the tool bar.

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    It could be worded a bit better, but I get the point.

    It would be nice to see a further continuation of this at some point down the road when more people are familiar with Browning and King's pieces of the story...

    Or when it's been so long the stories have fallen from the minds of the population with the exception of a few people to whom it was passed by their parents. XD
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  6. #756
    Traveler Wigz is on a distinguished road

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    Yeah i didnt know exactly how to word it. The idea came to me today after i finished dt7.

  7. #757
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    King is the wordslinger so IMHO I think he is the only one who can tell Roland's story. If there are many Eddies out there why wouldn't many Kings be out there? I can't imagine anyone else telling this incredible story but him.
    But it's just me.

    Roland would have understood.

  8. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    ... If there are many Eddies out there why wouldn't many Kings be out there? ...
    I prefer to think that there are, although it might contradict the logic of some of what we're told about Keystone Earth. Even if there are many Stephen Kings in many worlds writing about many other worlds, other authors of past and future still might have part in the songs of the beams, as well. I do tend to think that King himself would like to see future writers take interest.

  9. #759
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    I wasn't sure where to ask this so I'll leave it here. Does Roland simply get sent to the desert or does he get sent to the desert back in time? Both options could work but I'm thinking he doesn't go back through time. If he really is as old as we're led to believe he is, he isn't getting sent back through time because everything else in his world has moved on... except him. The people in River Crossing remember him but only the oldest person there and there he is, looking 40-50-ish/whatever and Gunslingers have thought to be gone for generations. If he ends up there again in the next loop they all might be dead of old age or noticably older and he will still looking seemingly same.

    Thoughts?

  10. #760
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeDealInLead View Post
    Both options could work but I'm thinking he doesn't go back through time.
    No, they don't. Randall Flagg is definitively dead by the end of the seventh book. If Roland doesn't go back in time, then the last line of the book makes no sense... King specifically recycles the opening line of the series. How could Roland chase a dead man?
    Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.

    The man in black fled across the desert,
    and the gunslinger followed.


  11. #761
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    Well, it is a new loop (I like the "spiral" theory more) so maybe it's a different Flagg (different Eddie, Jake etc) too.

    You also forget that Flagg is one tough mother to kill. I'm not sure if you read The Stand so I won't spoil it for you but that last chapter is proof death is only temporary for the Man In Black. He himself also seems to know the nature of Roland's existence, so either someone (Gan, Crimson King, whoever) told him or he's been there through it all with him. A yin to his yang so to speak...

  12. #762
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    Okay, so, the question appears to be, "If one goes into a different universe which is just like the past, and simultaneously loses all of one's memories back to that same past point, is that the same thing as travelling back to the past, or is it somehow something different in some undefinable sense?"

  13. #763
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    Everything is somehow different in some undefinable sense when it comes to TDT. Our journey with Roland was not his first journey. We don't know (I'm sure SK also doesn't have all the answers) if he always travels with Eddie, Susannah, Jake and Oy but I wish for argument's sake that we say that he does. He could still be sent to the desert in a continuos timeline (so basically just transported there) and have different Eddies, Susannahs and Jakes drawn to his world. If we're going with the theory he does have the same ka-tet, then even the loop we read about has different (but same, right?) members of ka-tet then the previous one. So it's not just quite possible but also likely that Flagg is a Flagg from a different world or he ressurected himself (like in The Stand).

    How else is Roland a thousand years old? Yeah time is strange is his world but wouldn't be strange for everyone else too? I still go back to River Crossing for proof of this. Those people are old and not just in End-World sense, they're physically old.

    So yeah, let's simplify. Time travel (not necessary, Eddie, Oy, Jake are dead, Susannah gone. He'll get a new ka-tet anyways) or just "travel" (again, he gets a new tet so he doesn't necessarily need time travel).

  14. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeDealInLead View Post
    Well, it is a new loop (I like the "spiral" theory more) so maybe it's a different Flagg (different Eddie, Jake etc) too.

    You also forget that Flagg is one tough mother to kill. I'm not sure if you read The Stand so I won't spoil it for you but that last chapter is proof death is only temporary for the Man In Black.
    1) It is my belief that there is only one Randall Flagg within the King universe. With a character as quintessential and dangerous as him, I couldn't imagine King wanting more than one.

    2)
    The Stand
    Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.

    The man in black fled across the desert,
    and the gunslinger followed.


  15. #765
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    Default "Redemption"

    This has been mentioned before, I don't remember where, but I wanted to elaborate. If there's an appropriate thread already, please move this there.

    As we know, the subtitle of The Waste Lands is "Redemption," and "Redemption" is also in the four-word subtitle of The Dark Tower VII.

    Obviously we know that the former redemption refers to Roland's relationship with Jake, and the latter to the fact that clearly Roland has redeemed himself somewhat by the end of the loop that we read about (call it "loop #99"), at least enough that he now has the Horn of Eld when he starts the next loop ("loop #100"), where he didn't before. This leads one to wonder if the two might be linked--if they're not identical they must at least have something to do with each other, surely.

    Anyway, I wanted to take this a step further and into speculative territory--I don't even know if Stephen King himself has definitive answers either way. I'm specifically speculating on loops #98 (the one BEFORE the one we read about) and #100 (the one AFTER the one we read about) with regard to Roland's relationship with Jake.

    Since Roland achieves "redemption" in The Waste Lands with regard to Jake, this suggests to me what might have happened in the loops before and after. Perhaps in loop #98 Roland abandoned Jake to his death in the mines and didn't allow himself to feel guilty enough about it (though that's not to say he felt NO guilt at all) to try to "undo" what he'd done. Hence in that loop, Jake never officially became part of the ka-tet at all, and later members never knew him personally. Hence why a new loop was needed.

    That being the case, perhaps in loop #100 Roland did not abandon Jake to his death in the mines at all, and Jake survived throughout the loop to whatever end, in which case no redemption was needed as far as Jake was concerned when the ka-tet found the Path of the Beam. And that being the case, plus having the Horn of Eld, it might be that loop #100 would be his last, Roland's final "redemption."

    Thoughts?

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    Gunslinger Apprentice arrawyn is on a distinguished road

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    i just finished the series (well, yesterday) and i loved the ending! and i love it more the more I think about it. it just really gets you thinking!

    And i'm sorry if this has been said before...but here's my thought as to how Roland could break the loop/cycle. everyone (and King himself) stated that the real joy in a quest/journey is the journey itself, and not just reaching the destination.

    at first Roland looked in all the rooms, and remembered bits of his past that were shown to him. and people learn and grow and change from the past and looking back on it. but then he got impatient and just wanted to get to his destination (the top and to see what's up there) and skipped a whole lot of rooms and therefore memories of his far past, or even his more recent past, maybe because they might've been painful or whatever (but we can learn a lot, even from painful / bad moments/memories in our lives).

    So i think because he skipped all these rooms/memories and didn't fully examine himself as a person and grow from what he saw in the rooms (and remembered) and could then apply what he'd learned to his current self/situation, the Tower flung him back to the beginning.

    IMO i think the loop could stop when Roland is patient and takes the time to look into all the rooms (into all his memories and experiences and what makes him who he is). and so that when he gets to the top, he'll be a whole person. and will have savoured his whole journey (i.e. also his whole life at the same time) and therefore won't need to be sent back again to do it over again. Maybe each time he does it, he goes and looks in a couple more rooms than the time before, and then gets impatient again and doesn't care about the journey, just the destination.

    mind you, i wonder what he would see at the top if he did look back on his whole life/all experiences? maybe just nothing, or maybe just himself looking back at himself in a mirror or something. or...maybe he will finally be so complete in himself that he can now go to the clearing at the end of the path and he can move on from there...

  17. #767
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    As I recall it, he was less impatient than horrified. Didn't he stop looking after he reached the level on which Susan burned?

    The really terrible part is the passage wherein he fears for a moment that the stairway might just go upward forever. He talks himself out of it with the realization that it was his life that he was seeing, and that his life had not been eternal. This seems so terrible now because that rationale is no longer so certain...

  18. #768
    Gunslinger Apprentice arrawyn is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    As I recall it, he was less impatient than horrified. Didn't he stop looking after he reached the level on which Susan burned?

    The really terrible part is the passage wherein he fears for a moment that the stairway might just go upward forever. He talks himself out of it with the realization that it was his life that he was seeing, and that his life had not been eternal. This seems so terrible now because that rationale is no longer so certain...

    yes, that is true he started running once he saw Susan's room because he didn't want to think about that. but I think he should want to try and face up to his memories (good and bad).

    that's true about his fear about that it might go on forever but then he talks himself out of it...but it turns out he was right.

  19. #769
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    Quote Originally Posted by arrawyn View Post
    yes, that is true he started running once he saw Susan's room because he didn't want to think about that. but I think he should want to try and face up to his memories (good and bad).

    that's true about his fear about that it might go on forever but then he talks himself out of it...but it turns out he was right.
    I think what's so special about Roland's Tower is what he would see when he reaches the rooms starting at the desert. I think that there would start to be multiple rooms on each floor to show each of his different loops at that point. Only then would he be able to reconcile the fact that he's been through this before and finally realize what he needs to reach the true top. I think that's why it's important that he started running after seeing Susan's room; it was soon after her burning that events in his past started changing (such as his getting the Horn at the end of the loop we read about). However, he wouldn't understand the true history he's been through until he reaches the real desert door instead of just skipping through to the top.
    Finished The Dark Tower at 6:03AM on December 21, 2009.

    The man in black fled across the desert,
    and the gunslinger followed.


  20. #770
    Traveler l0rdhelmet223 is on a distinguished road

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    Ka is a wheel, maybe it's as simple as the only way the beams continue to hold is because Roland is in an eternal loop... perhaps if Roland were to reach the tower without causing so much suffering on his quest he would reach the top and it would crumble and all universes with it.

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    I don't think so, because he has saved the Tower before he reaches the top.

    Of course he get's sent back to when it is in jeopardy again. If it ever truly is since it seems to be his ka to save the Tower. I don't think things are that definite however.

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    It makes me wonder how the Multiverse survived through loop # 1, when Roland must have been a real caveman.
    Perhaps the machinations of the CK faced by this ka-tet were not the same for others. Could it be that when Roland started, there were no alternate universes? Scene and actor may have evolved together.
    I've always found it interesting that that revising of time occurs during the quest. To change the world, Roland wants to get to the Tower, but he can't reach it without ka, and the world IS changed by the path he finds that he must take.
    Was this loop where Roland does bring Jake back "needed" in order to make Roland worthy to approach Gan, or is the real point that there was a need for there to exist a world in which Jake lives?
    It's the extraversion-introversion dualism. Do we learn to work or do we work to learn? Is Roland making himself ready for a better world, or making the world ready for his better self?

  23. #773
    Gunslinger Apprentice arrawyn is on a distinguished road

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    i just had a thought about why the loop might start where it does when posting in another thread. Roland's made a lot of agonizing choice on his journey to the Tower. It might be that every time roland deals the right way with one of the big /crucial choices in his life, the next time he does the loop he starts over past that 'resovled' choice in his life, and closer to when the next agonizing choice in his life occurs that he'll need to choice one way or other other (one is 'correct', the other not).

    so maybe originally the loop started early on in his life and if he dealt with something wrong the first time, the loop would go back and have him re-do that part (and everything else) til it was 'fixed' and then the loop would move up in time and he would have less to repeat. like susan. the loop starts after susan dies, so maybe he's resolved/fixed/chosen the right thing to do in that part of his life (i.e. susan was meant to die- ka). maybe the first however many loops roland did something different (i.e. somehow saved susan from death), but because that wasn't the 'correct' choice, he repeated the loop before that moment until he acted correctly.

    so that the reason the loop starts where it is (basically before meeting jake and letting him fall) is because he's let jake fall and that's the wrong choice and maybe the next loop if he doesn't let jake fall, the next time the loop repeats it will start later on? (i.e. maybe on the beach having something to do with O'Detta/Detta, or one of Eddie Dean's mobster guys, or maybe even having let Jack Mort die (before getting back thru - because wasn't he really supposed to be drawn? but wasn't because he died on the way back?). maybe if Jack Mort lived and was drawn, maybe the next loop will continue further along the path, maybe with Oy, or something in Rivers Crossing, or Lud or...i don't know.

    Just a thought that came to me right now. don't know if its already been suggested.

  24. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by arrawyn View Post
    i just had a thought about why the loop might start where it does when posting in another thread. ...
    Ah. Guess I should have read this before I added to that thread, then. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by arrawyn View Post
    ...let Jack Mort die ... wasn't he really supposed to be drawn? ...
    Who would suppose such a thing as that? Sounds like anti-ka to me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by arrawyn View Post
    i just had a thought about why the loop might start where it does when posting in another thread. Roland's made a lot of agonizing choice on his journey to the Tower. It might be that every time roland deals the right way with one of the big /crucial choices in his life, the next time he does the loop he starts over past that 'resovled' choice in his life, and closer to when the next agonizing choice in his life occurs that he'll need to choice one way or other other (one is 'correct', the other not).

    so maybe originally the loop started early on in his life and if he dealt with something wrong the first time, the loop would go back and have him re-do that part (and everything else) til it was 'fixed' and then the loop would move up in time and he would have less to repeat.
    I seem to remember it being stated at the end of The Dark Tower, that he is always returned to the same point. I do like your idea though.

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