I think CK and Roland are the same person. I think CK might be the essence of Roland knowing deep in his subconscious mind that there is no end to his quest. No matter what he does, he is trapped by the tower. The Crimson King is Roland's hate for the tower.
I believe CK and Roland are one, but this is a short explanation of my theory.
very much like a psychoanalyst's suggestion that the mysterious cloaked stranger who follows you on the street is only an externalization of your childhood trauma. Then he wonders why the patient missed the appointment, calls her and learns that she's been stabbed on the street by a cloaked man
I mean, any theory is valid until it is disproved, but there are theories that enrich our view of the world, and there are others that only set up some abstract view that doesn't have to have anything to do with reality...
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RE: Discussion on chaos vs. order (an aside for your debate...)
chaos theory does not preclude order, and you have to be careful in the understanding of either one of those terms. patterns do not necessarily indicate that something is ordered, just like the nonexistence of a pattern does not necessarily indicate chaos. merely because a system is nonlinear and complex does not make it totally random (the Butterfly Effect is a full theory based on this idea). It should also be noted that random and chaos are not interchangeable words.
mathematically and theoretically speaking, chaotic systems have much order. what makes them chaotic is that they are indeterminate. the simplest example of an ordered chaotic system is a perfect circle. the coefficient pi specifically is ordered yet it is wholly indeterminate as it cannot be calculated precisely. the numbers run infinitely past the decimal point. yet, the system is precise. so here we see that chaos and order are not at all mutually exclusive. most systems studied on the planet and in the universe (from cellular mitosis to weather to solar eclipse) are neither totally chaotic nor totally ordered, but rather a complete symbiosis of the two.
just some food for thought for you guys in that discussion.
19eye-rosecrow-gun: I think the distinction between wanting to understand the Tower (Roland) and unreservedly desiring to destroy it (CK) is a very important one, not often enough considered.
Seneschal: Thank you! That's good information, and quite well described.
very much like a psychoanalyst's suggestion that the mysterious cloaked stranger who follows you on the street is only an externalization of your childhood trauma. Then he wonders why the patient missed the appointment, calls her and learns that she's been stabbed on the street by a cloaked man
I mean, any theory is valid until it is disproved, but there are theories that enrich our view of the world, and there are others that only set up some abstract view that doesn't have to have anything to do with reality...
You should read it again. Keep in mind Roland is made by the tower, like everything else. I believe Roland and CK are the same. In fact it is almost impossible they aren't.
very much like a psychoanalyst's suggestion that the mysterious cloaked stranger who follows you on the street is only an externalization of your childhood trauma. Then he wonders why the patient missed the appointment, calls her and learns that she's been stabbed on the street by a cloaked man
I mean, any theory is valid until it is disproved, but there are theories that enrich our view of the world, and there are others that only set up some abstract view that doesn't have to have anything to do with reality...
You should read it again. Keep in mind Roland is made by the tower, like everything else. I believe Roland and CK are the same. In fact it is almost impossible they aren't.
Is it, then, almost impossible that everything else not be the same, too?
I know Jean has read these books plenty of times, and I actually found that post of his very expressive and right to the point.
Surly not everything else is the same. Oy and Flagg are not the same. Roland and CK probably are. Think about it like this: Roland destroys lives trying to get to the tower, and CK will destroy lives so Roland won't get there. Its a very simple explanation to say it like this, but just let it cook for a while.
the ck wasa insane smart but insane it was his job to protect the tower not distory it and on matter what lineage he has he would be plunged into the same nothingness as every one else and the fact that he dosent see it is even more insane evey thing (apart from killing him self) that he dose in the book king wrote was insane
Perhaps he would be better off dead.
The flip side of the question, "Is the Crimson King truly insane?" is Roland's big question: Is Gan truly sane? To answer whether the CK is right to try to destroy the Tower in the sense of whether doing so is in his best interest, we'd need to know what would happen to him if he did not try to destroy it. Clearly, he's miserable now, but isn't that his own fault? It seems that he's making himself miserable, and possibly causing all of the other miseries the rest of us experience in the process. Did he start doing this because he lost his mind, or was Gan intentionally making him miserable before? What we really need to know is whether the existing multiverse is really better than what the CK would create, and in what way. In Eddie's vision of the Rose, the Dark Tower is behind every incident wherein anyone is spared suffering. If that's true then it certainly seems insane to seek to destroy that to gain power for oneself. But why does Gan permit the CK to try? At the end, does the Tower not appear to actually encourage Roland to keep trying to climb it? If all of the suffering and evil in existence arises from this competition over control of the Tower then is that an evil purpose being served by it? Is Gan a sadist with the power to do to the CK and the rest of us what the CK dreams of being able to do to us and to Gan? Or is there more to life than an average horror novel?
In short, what is the definition of goodness and the good life, do these really exist, and for whom?
I think we have to look at two facts in the novels. There is the element of Fate and Choice. Flagg says "We are what the Tower makes us". What Flagg means, is we have no choice. We are bound by fate. You must also consider however, every character makes choices. Roland didn't have to let Jake die. Eddie didn't have to spare Roland's life. We must look at the chosen fate and the choices.
Everyone makes choices, but the CK still can't simply choose to destroy the Tower. Between the element of fate and the element of choice is the element of power. I think that clarity on how these and other facts relate is essential to the meaning of sanity.
Its hard to say because if the Crimson King knows he is doomed to repeat his death forever, wouldn't it be sane for him to want to destroy the tower and re-create the Prim in which he was born from? This is sane enough, but there is also the fact of the Crimson King's evil nature. He enjoys people's suffering.
Kind of an Eastern-style interpretation, but what if his intention was never to rule anything, but to simply to obliterate this flawed, material reality to restore the infinite darkness beyond? If the Prim and Todash are a part of a higher reality, comprehensible only to the beasts within it, Crimson King may have genuinely believed that the material world was a horrible, broken mistake by comparison. His Nirvana is a dark, endless sea of perpetual void, free of the petty concerns of the flesh.
But instead of teaching others the way to transcendence, he's bringing Nirvana to them. To Crimson King, humans are purely material beings, no better than termites. They are to be used to help strip away the curtains, but that is all. Why give them the option to remain chained to this mortal reality? Better to simply shatter the illusion once and for all, and reveal the ultimate reality beneath. They have nothing within them that is worthy of the Todash darkness, and will be obliterated with the rest of the veil.
The Crimson King himself is only half mortal, cursed to walk this world and only dream of becoming one with the Todash. He thinks of himself as a kind of Buddha or Messiah, born of both worlds and aspiring to the greater. As such, destroying the fabric of reality would also destroy his own weak, mortal half, leaving only the pure, inhuman half to shine through and flourish in the primordial darkness.
"I serve only one masta: DAAKNESS" - Peter Boil, Swashbuckler
It's hard to say if the Crimson King is insane. We can just totally assume he's power hungry, and wants to rule everything. We know the Tower stands pretty much just for Roland, or heck, maybe I only view it as this. Crimson King wants to destroy the Tower, so that he's the most important figure in the world(s) If you've ever read "Black House" then you'd know his 'physical' being is stuck at the tower, and there other manifestations out there. He is, yes, one that Darkles and Tincts, as well as Randall Flagg, as well as Roland. They have no Twinners, they're just in every world like. Crimson King just serves the 'Random' and Roland serves the 'Purpose', and that answers the question above, "is Crimson King and Roland the same?"...the answer has to be...no!
Here's what I want to know. Was the CK around in the really old days when the really old people created all the technology that Roland and the katet keep running in to? When did he come along? Who were the people that lived in the land that he ruled? Who would live in a kingdom ruled by him? Were they all evil or bad people? When did he kill all those lands between the Castle Discorida and his castle? All that backstory is confusing to me.
Here's what I want to know. Was the CK around in the really old days when the really old people created all the technology that Roland and the katet keep running in to? When did he come along? Who were the people that lived in the land that he ruled? Who would live in a kingdom ruled by him? Were they all evil or bad people? When did he kill all those lands between the Castle Discorida and his castle? All that backstory is confusing to me.
comics spoilers
The Crimson King is the son of Arthur Eld and the Crimson Queen. Since Arthur Eld was born in the post-apocalyptic Mid-World, this means that Los' wasn't around until long after the Old Ones' civilisation had collapsed. However, the 'true' manifestation of the Crimson King, Dis, has been part of the Dark Tower since the very beginning – at least that's the impression I get.
Here's what I want to know. Was the CK around in the really old days when the really old people created all the technology that Roland and the katet keep running in to? When did he come along? Who were the people that lived in the land that he ruled? Who would live in a kingdom ruled by him? Were they all evil or bad people? When did he kill all those lands between the Castle Discorida and his castle? All that backstory is confusing to me.
comics spoilers
The Crimson King is the son of Arthur Eld and the Crimson Queen. Since Arthur Eld was born in the post-apocalyptic Mid-World, this means that Los' wasn't around until long after the Old Ones' civilisation had collapsed. However, the 'true' manifestation of the Crimson King, Dis, has been part of the Dark Tower since the very beginning – at least that's the impression I get.
I'm not sure I get the whole CK was always part of the Dark Tower thing. King made a point of writing about the CK traveling to the DT when Roland and his katet were in the Calla. And Dandelo, Thoughtful, and others made a point of talking about the CK traveling to the DT. And King wrote about CK getting caught on the balcony of the DT where he was when Roland came along. (Although, I don't understand how the CK got into the tower to get into Roland's 2nd room and then get stuck on the balcony. If he could get in, why wouldn't he just get in and be in charge of the tower? I thought Roland needed his gun to open the door and the CK couldn't get in without it either. That whole bit wasn't very consistent.).
Still doesn't explain who the people were that he ruled, where they came from, etc. There were obviously lots of people willing to work for him, from all worlds. I'd move out if he was my king.
I'd go with the comic origin of the Crimson King since we haven't been given another explanation, but I agree with this:
Originally Posted by mtdman
I'm not sure I get the whole CK was always part of the Dark Tower thing.
I don't think any of the books have stated that he has always been there right from the start. The Waste Lands, Insomnia and Black House do give the impression that he is already stuck in the Tower though, but different worlds, rate of time-flow could account for that. (And of course some statements may be prophetic in nature. And some may be inaccurate too coming as they do through a human filter.)
It's mainly from BH that we come up with the
Spoiler:
theories of the Red King being in two places at once,
but none of the DT books have specifically stated this. I think he could send out his mind and influence even was trapped in the Tower (thus in effect being two places at once) but I personally don't subscribe to the idea that there's a godlike side called 'Dis' trapped at the top. I think Dis is either a more powerful other out there, or it's a description of all the forces of discordance and chaos. I think the Crimson King and his kin from the prim are all part of it.
Still doesn't explain who the people were that he ruled, where they came from, etc. There were obviously lots of people willing to work for him, from all worlds. I'd move out if he was my king.
We haven't really been given much information on this. It think it's fair to say he ruled a large chunk of End-World and the Taheen and Low-men comprise a large chunk of his subjects, as do the various human villages within his territory. Some would have been willing to follow him in their hope to gain power. The rest... well... I'd imagine he had many unwilling subjects. I'm sure many did try to leave (some may have succeeded.)
Of course he wiped out the majority of the population just for the fun of it. I imagine many served him out of fear that they might be next, rather than being outright evil.
I'm not sure I get the whole CK was always part of the Dark Tower thing. King made a point of writing about the CK traveling to the DT when Roland and his katet were in the Calla. And Dandelo, Thoughtful, and others made a point of talking about the CK traveling to the DT. And King wrote about CK getting caught on the balcony of the DT where he was when Roland came along. (Although, I don't understand how the CK got into the tower to get into Roland's 2nd room and then get stuck on the balcony. If he could get in, why wouldn't he just get in and be in charge of the tower? I thought Roland needed his gun to open the door and the CK couldn't get in without it either. That whole bit wasn't very consistent.)
The way I see it, the 'old man' Crimson King who is the biological offspring of Eld is one being, whereas the more abstract, 'true' Crimson King is another, more fundamental entity. Los' and Dis are strongly linked – the extreme, supernatural, almost primordial evil of Los' makes him the closest thing Dis has to an avatar outside the Tower – but I think they're ultimately two separate beings, although the line between them is a very blurry one.
Originally Posted by Brainslinger
It's mainly from BH that we come up with the
Spoiler:
theories of the Red King being in two places at once,
but none of the DT books have specifically stated this. I think he could send out his mind and influence even was trapped in the Tower (thus in effect being two places at once) but I personally don't subscribe to the idea that there's a godlike side called 'Dis' trapped at the top. I think Dis is either a more powerful other out there, or it's a description of all the forces of discordance and chaos. I think the Crimson King and his kin from the prim are all part of it.
Since the forces of Purpose (or the White, or whatever you want to call it) are concentrated in a single location – the Tower – it's always made sense to me that the forces of the Random/Red are similarly concentrated. The two are diametrically opposed – two sides of the same coin – and they wage their war across every universe, but I think the ultimate nexus of both forces is in the same place; that the pinnacle of evil is located at the heart of good. One is the shadow of the other; the two cannot be separated. This is why I think the Crimson King has, in some way, been there from the beginning.
Well, I'm not so sure that good and evil can't be separated; so, if the CK has more than passing influence on the Tower, if it is in fact the pinnacle of evil itself, then I'd say that Roland is entirely justified to go on trying to surmount it. Maybe there is no true good in existence.