The Gray Area
I posted a topic like this at the SKMB because there is all kinds of talk about SK's short "Morality"
So what do you guys consider "morally correct".
If your family is starving, is it okay to steal bread for them?
I figure this can go from murder to sex for hire...what do you guys think?
Is there really a "right" and "wrong". Or is the idea simply based on doing what you think is right at the time?
The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket
Good topic.
Well, using your stealing bread example, I would say this: stealing is always wrong, but I'm willing to be wrong if it comes down to life and death. So yeah, if I had a starving kid and I had no other choice but to steal to feed it, I would. It would still be wrong though, IMHO.
"People, especially children, aren't measured by their IQ. What's important about them is whether they're good or bad, and these children are bad." ~ Alan Bernard
"You needn't die happy when your day comes, but you must die satisfied, for you have lived your life from beginning to end and ka is always served." ~ Roland Deschain
Situational ethics.I agree - excellent topic.
I've often said that the older I get, the more I see things in shades of grey rather than black and white with a grey area.
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
I agree with both of the posts above. I think it's a matter of priorities, really. It's wrong to steal, but it's even worse to let your family starve.
I agree.
This post feels kinda thin.....
(But great thread.)
Big town's got its losers, small town's got its vices...
Right and wrong are in the eye of the beholder. I've said before, I don't believe in objective anything. Everything is subjective. We may not want it to be in certain situations, but that does little to change it.
Good thread Matt. I'm interested to see where it goes.
I am of the I guess unusual opinion that right and wrong are absolute. With that said I've been poor and desperate enough to steal for food (and yes, I'd do it again). It is still wrong though. I don't believe right and wrong are dependent on circumstance at all. I believe there are no grey areas. I've done more than my share of fucked up wrong things in the past and each one was a conscious decision. I don't believe in regrets though. I just choose to look at the future as opportunity to hopefully make less bad choices. I don't try to justify my mistakes and I'm not ashamed of many if any of them. They are what they are...willful bad choices.
I have to agree with Brice. Also, it's about personal responsibility.
I guess it's kind of like having that laminated list of famous people you're "allowed" to sleep with if given the opportunity... hey, it's still cheating !!!
( sorry, vague references to Friends there )
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...And The Gunslinger Followed.
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I found that I was about to quote almost the entire thread, so I'll just say it: I think we are all in agreement, but our ways of expressing our views make them seem different. Am I crazy or does a reread of all posts with that thought in mind seem to point to agreement?
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
I'm not sure it does.Originally Posted by Woofer
I think this is one of those extremely rare cases where Brice and I are not in agreement, at least with regards to the existence of absolutes.
I'm not sure it does.
I think this is one of those extremely rare cases where Brice and I are not in agreement, at least with regards to the existence of absolutes.
Yes, in fact I think we're about as polar opposite as we've ever been on this one.
I suppose it was bound to happen at some point.
Well, right and wrong can both be absolute and in the mind of the beholder, such as with Daggers' example. The difference comes in when the person who is beholding has a sense of right and wrong that do not agree with what we have accepted (stealing, for example). It's still wrong even if it's, for example, Patrick Hockstetter saying that it should be mine because nothing else is real/I deserve it/nobody else matters/whatever. Of course in that person's mind it is not wrong, but we here all seem to agree on the basics of right and wrong.
Or maybe I'm just low on coffee?
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
*pours you another cup*Well, right and wrong can both be absolute and in the mind of the beholder, such as with Daggers' example. The difference comes in when the person who is beholding has a sense of right and wrong that do not agree with what we have accepted (stealing, for example). It's still wrong even if it's, for example, Patrick Hockstetter saying that it should be mine because nothing else is real/I deserve it/nobody else matters/whatever. Of course in that person's mind it is not wrong, but we here all seem to agree on the basics of right and wrong.
Or maybe I'm just low on coffee?
But if perspectives matter at all (even in a person such as Hockstetter) than there can be no absolutes.
Yes, though I'd be likely to say that we are then dealing with a subjective definition of absolute. It's not universally true at all times.
Well played.absolutely!
Yes, though I'd be likely to say that we are then dealing with a subjective definition of absolute. It's not universally true at all times.
Well played.absolutely!
*bows*
Well now Brice and I are in agreement on something. Perhaps not on the answer to whether perspective matters, but on the implications of the possibility that they do.
By the way, have I mentioned how glad I am Matt started this thread?
Yes, you have.
And I think we have the same understanding, but differing conclusions.
Because we come at it from different perspectives?
yes, but they absolutely don't matter.
If you did believe in an absolute right and wrong...you'd know I'm absolutely right.
well you disagree with me, so i might be willing to say i believe you're absolutely wrong.or maybe you're the
*sips coffee* See, it's not that there are not absolutes, but that the mind perceiving them doesn't perceive them as such. Or, to be more precise, the mind perceiving them believes a different set of absolutes.
All of us would likely agree that stealing to feed our families if we had to is still stealing (an absolute state), but we'd do it to save our families (situational). A very different mind may see the absolute of stealing as wrong for anyone who is not Self. That doesn't mean stealing isn't wrong, just that the mind perceiving it is wired differently.
Got to run to work, but keep discussing! WOOF!
And yes, great topic!
It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
A whole lot more than riches and muscle.
The hands of the many must join as one.
And together we'll cross the river.
Puscifer, "The Humbling River"
Yes, we are and while perspectivity (is that a word?well you disagree with me, so i might be willing to say i believe you're absolutely wrong.
I don't like to think about such things usually
But when I'm here already I'll try to explain what are my thoughts about it.
In my opinion there's not right or wrong things one can do. Just things that one does or doesn't. People always try to set rules so everyone would thought about certain things in same way. Like stealing is always bad and giving is always good.
But stealing doesn't feel like a bad idea to thief .... I'm sure that he finds that it's either the only way or just a good thing to do. So it seems dam right thing to do for him.
Same goes for murder etc.
Kinda sad that we all follow *we all MUST follow* the path that people before us have imagined right. And actually no one cares if you were stealing for food, stealing your food back or just getting some more for yourself
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