Roland: Saved or Damned?

[jayson]

Incidentally, I have never voted in the poll in this thread bc the choice of looping forever is described as "Damned" and while I do feel he will loop endlessly, I do not tie this to the concept of damnation.

it's because I am the author of the options

I can add another option (like, "Other")

Some sort of option like "Neither" would work for me.

[Jean]

ok - unfortunately, I don't have the Superpower to do that myself, but maybe someone will

[KaLikeAWheel]

Another thought, are Susan, Eddie, and Oy all doomed to the repeat process as well, or does he draw new people, or different versions of those again of them from another world?

I read this post a couple of days ago and it bothered me, but I couldn't figure out why. I had to think about it for a while before I could come up with an answer. Here goes....

First, I think he'd continue to pick the same Ka-Tet. They are all under Ka's influence, so I don't think he could draw any other people or versions of these people.

Also, I don't think of Susan, Eddie, Jake or Oy as "doomed" at all.

Jake was a boy ignored by his parents and had no real friends. When Roland pulled him through that door Jake got a family who loved him. Roland his father, Susannah a kind of mother and Eddie an older brother, not to mention a loyal friend in Oy.

Susannah was a fundamentaly fractured personality who was once again made whole by her trip through the door.

Eddie was a drug addict, basically a man with no real future. Learning the gunslinger's art and questing for the tower gave him a purpose that he would have never found in Co-Op City.

Oy was alone, forced from his pack as evidenced by the bumbler bite he had on his side when Jake found him. He found a new pack with the Ka-Tet. He found his best friend Jake.

Every one of them had been living lives as outcasts and without love before Roland brought them together. Even if they are going to continue for eternity to repeat the quest, could they be considered doomed, even considering that three fourths of them ended up dead? It always seemed to me that they all had the happiest days of their lives because of Roland's quest for the tower.

And as Roland redeemed all of them, they returned the favor. Roland changed so very much throughout all seven books, mostly because of the way he came to love them all. The man who let Jake fall was not the same man who knew someone had to die to save Sai King, and unquestioningly turned his back on his quest so that Jake wouldn't be the one to die. That Jake died anyway doesn't make the intention to die to save Jake rather than make it to the tower any less huge.

Of course, that's all just my opinion. Comments/criticisms welcome.

Donna

[Brainslinger]

I agree. Even though the lives of Eddie and Jake were short they did so much more with their lives when they joined Roland. Also, it's arguable that Eddie, being in the extreme stage of drug addiction, wouldn't have lived that long if he had remained behind.

As for Jake, it was definitely a salvation in his case when we consider, he wasn't actually drawn to begin with. And had he not been drawn that second time, he would have gone crazy.

I also agree that Roland will pull the same ka-tet each time, although whether it'll be the exact same versions, I'm not sure.

I can't help wondering why the keystone version of Susannah was also missing, even though the book makes clear that our version of Suze is not from the keystone world. Does that mean that version will be drawn at some point too?

(I've got another theory on this, but that will drift too far off thread, so I'll leave that here.)

As to Roland being saved or damned (I'm sure I've posted on this already but anyhow.) I think it's a bit of both. He's damned to continue until he has got certain things right, but he is gradually being saved during the process, a bit at a time.

I chose "saved after a number of loops."

[Merlin1958]

I think that Roland is an eternal champion that represents all of us in many worlds. As goes Roland so goes the Tower and Mid world. Its a variation of the old Arthurian legend as goes the King so goes the land.

So as Roland redeems himself each time we take one step back from the brink of chaos and destruction which the Crimson King wants more than anything to return

[Tony_A]

Another thought, are Susan, Eddie, and Oy all doomed to the repeat process as well, or does he draw new people, or different versions of those again of them from another world?

I read this post a couple of days ago and it bothered me, but I couldn't figure out why. I had to think about it for a while before I could come up with an answer. Here goes....

First, I think he'd continue to pick the same Ka-Tet. They are all under Ka's influence, so I don't think he could draw any other people or versions of these people.

Also, I don't think of Susan, Eddie, Jake or Oy as "doomed" at all.

Jake was a boy ignored by his parents and had no real friends. When Roland pulled him through that door Jake got a family who loved him. Roland his father, Susannah a kind of mother and Eddie an older brother, not to mention a loyal friend in Oy.

Susannah was a fundamentaly fractured personality who was once again made whole by her trip through the door.

Eddie was a drug addict, basically a man with no real future. Learning the gunslinger's art and questing for the tower gave him a purpose that he would have never found in Co-Op City.

Oy was alone, forced from his pack as evidenced by the bumbler bite he had on his side when Jake found him. He found a new pack with the Ka-Tet. He found his best friend Jake.

Every one of them had been living lives as outcasts and without love before Roland brought them together. Even if they are going to continue for eternity to repeat the quest, could they be considered doomed, even considering that three fourths of them ended up dead? It always seemed to me that they all had the happiest days of their lives because of Roland's quest for the tower.

And as Roland redeemed all of them, they returned the favor. Roland changed so very much throughout all seven books, mostly because of the way he came to love them all. The man who let Jake fall was not the same man who knew someone had to die to save Sai King, and unquestioningly turned his back on his quest so that Jake wouldn't be the one to die. That Jake died anyway doesn't make the intention to die to save Jake rather than make it to the tower any less huge.

Of course, that's all just my opinion. Comments/criticisms welcome.

Donna

I agree with everything here, which is why I voted that the next loop is the last, and he will find salvation, and possibly the ka-tet will all survive. I don't think King wrote the final book they way he did if there were still a lot of loops left for Roland and the ka-tet.

I was very touched the way Roland handled loss here (both Jake and Eddie) than when he handled it in the past. And to add to your point of how he handled Jake's death on Keystone Earth, he came very close to forsaking the tower and tending to Jake instead of the man they came to save. Jake had to keep Roland's mind on the prize and also instructed Oy to do the same.

[pathoftheturtle]

...I liked the idea I read earlier that he never really made it to the actual nexus, the Tower he found was himself and he failed miserably.

Interesting. Does anyone remember where this was written? Maybe you could give a link, Matt?

The Tower is not a human being... so why would it be afraid of anything?
Anyway I don't think that the Tower was ever in real danger.

The world is not moving on because of the Tower - the Tower is falling because of the moving world.
Ehhh... I will try to express it a little bit more later.

Please do. What a tantalizing comment. Are you speaking of the persistence of magic? (I think I'm going to have to look up all the quotes I can find about the magic leaving the world and the history of the Tower...)

[razz]

Is joo a technical word or are you accenting in a funny way?

sorry. when i rant i sometimes regress to l337sp34k

[sinstar]

I threw this out somewhere else, but I'll post it again here because it's relevant to the thread. I ran across a really good piece of fanfic that covers this very topic. It's kind of the ending I wish had happened. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2747620/1/

WOW! If only the book would have ended that way. That was amazing.

[Leithian]

I think SK is trying to lay down a bit of " and the moral of the story is" . Rolands world in some way shape or form has been destroyed by technology. Most likely radioactive. It seems to me his world at some point became reliant on machinery and at some point one of those machines decided man was a blot on the land scape and decided their destiny.

The Tower is magic and faith. The book obviously has a lot borrowed from King Arthur. If you have looked into that mythology at all, magic is a part of every version. Heard the saying where theres smoke theres fire ? I beleive that its possible people have forgotten how to access certain abilities mayhap we once had due to our reliance on technology.

Maybe Rolands quest has many objectives. Perhaps one of them is to restore humans to what they once were before things began to move on. We see the whole Ka-tet begin to open their minds to things such as joining of minds.

I still feel Roland is working through his own purgatory until the Tower is satisfied he is ready to pass on, this is his quest to find his own end. I'm not sure he realises thats what the result of his obsession will be but I'm pretty sure the prize, so to speak, is his right to die. So in some ways the Tower is judge, jury and executioner which I guess yeah is pretty much god.

[LadyHitchhiker]

l337sp34k? Like w00t???

[razz]

yup

[Dinh]

I voted for Damned...cuz come on..living your life over and over is being Saved?

Roland IS damned...unless he chooses not to be..unless he straightens up his principles...and think with his heart, as well, as shooting with it...

[Letti]

I voted for Damned...cuz come on..living your life over and over is being Saved?

Roland IS damned...unless he chooses not to be..unless he straightens up his principles...and think with his heart, as well, as shooting with it...

Yes, we can think this way but we can say that he gets a new chance with each loop, can't we?

[Dinh]

I think that he doesn't GET a chance with each new loop....I think HE IS MAKING that chance in the previous loop....with making the right/wrong decisions

[Jean]

Roland IS damned...unless he chooses not to be

So are we all, aren't we? Unless we choose not to be.

[The Lady of Shadows]

yes jean, i think so. but i think some of us are damned even if we choose not to be. it's just ka.

[Jean]

that is another reason why I do not believe in ka. Within my system of views, nobody is damned unless he chooses to, and ka can go fuck itself, like any other empty notion.

[Jon]

yes jean, i think so. but i think some of us are damned even if we choose not to be. it's just ka.

Sorry dear Turtle. I cannot agree. I do not believe in predestination. If so, why exercise free will?

I withheld my vote. That's right, I pulled a "China" on you.

[Letti]

I don't believe in ka either but even if it exists I don't think it takes its time to make anyone damned. People are so good at messing up and spoiling their luck and fate that ka is not necessary.

[jayson]

that is another reason why I do not believe in ka. Within my system of views, nobody is damned unless he chooses to, and ka can go fuck itself, like any other empty notion.

Well said Jean. Our situations are what we make of them.

[Gantoad]

The loop is like the movie Groundhog day, Roland will perpetuate in his purgatory till he gets it all right (or wrong.) Either damnation or salvation. If each loop can be changed, then he can eventually attain that perfect loop (perfectly good or perfectly not,) and find a final ending. I think it has more to do with him becoming the White King (or Red,) properly earning his birthrite as an heir to the Eld.

Roland has a greater destiny yet, and Gan a greater purpose for him. Like a blade on the forge, he is repeatedly worked. When he is done (even if it takes an eternity,) I can only guess at what destiny will be fulfilled. Maybe the Prim like a tide will come again, or maybe another age of Eld on midworld.

[Matt]

I like the analogy of blade at forge Gantoad. Welcome to the site

[Harrald]

Considering that Roland is returned to the point just before he met Jake (while searching for the Tower) I think he is doomed till he can fix his first and most horrid action in the story. That being the allowing to die of a complete innocent in his pursuit for the Tower.

Everyone else that died had some sort of shadow on their soul. Jake, on the other hand was clean at that point of his story. I feel that as soon as he sacrifices the boy the rest of his destiny is written.

But, I may be completely wrong

[Jean]

dear friends,

please remember that since this thread is in The Baronies > The Dark Tower, we do not mark any Dark Tower spoilers here