Is it possible that LIFE is like that...?!?!

[Letti]

There are people who believe in God and there are people who don't. Some believe in hell and heaven others believe in reincarnation. Some are sure death is the very end.
But... what if there is neither heaven nor hell nor reincarnation what if God (or you can think any of His names here) sends us back just like Roland got sent back. What if this is our only life and we have to stand and be true in this one.
I will be me again - Szűcs Nikolett. No other names... no other lives... just me and my little life again.

I know it's quite wild but... what do you think? Is it possible?

And if you think it might be possible... why would you be sent back this time? Where did you fail? Or do you feel you could stand as much as possible? And where would you be sent back?
So many questions.

[Jean]

The answer depends on whether the world into which we are sent back is "the" real world. If it is, my answer would be "possible, but not very probable". Within my system of belief, we all have only one life to live, during which we must all try to do our best; I wouldn't be surprised, though, if it was different for some - very rare - people, who for some reason were chosen to be the keys to the existence of the universe, as it seems to be the case with Roland.

On the other hand, I would be even less surprised if purgatory consisted in the ordeal of living that same life again. It would be a different world, though.

[Savvy]

Hi Letti

I always wondered why we get de ja vu, Is it because we are repeating ? I wouldn't like to think that we are just repeating this one life over with only subtle changes.
Hope this makes sense, probably not lol

[Brice]

I was sort of hoping that when we die the elder gods would eat our souls for all time.

All possibilities are equally probable I think.

With that said, if I'm to go back and try to fix all my mistakes I'm totally fucked. In my experience life, nature, nor gods are very forgiving.

[Letti]

I don't think we would need to fix all of our mistakes. Just the big ones or the big one. Like Roland letting Jake drop.

[Brice]

I've had quite a few big ones too, dear.

[lonely_cube]

It seems plausible. If there is some kind of god or gods, who care(s) about the general well-being of everyone, perhaps it/they would send people back to repair their mistakes. It makes more sense to me than sending people to hell. The only problem with this idea is that, unless most people haven't gone through many loops yet, you'd think more people would be "good", since people would probably improve quite a bit between each loop.
Of course, if this is true, and god watches all the loops, he must get really bored.

[Letti]

It seems plausible. If there is some kind of god or gods, who care(s) about the general well-being of everyone, perhaps it/they would send people back to repair their mistakes. It makes more sense to me than sending people to hell. The only problem with this idea is that, unless most people haven't gone through many loops yet, you'd think more people would be "good", since people would probably improve quite a bit between each loop.
Of course, if this is true, and god watches all the loops, he must get really bored.

I don't think people are that bad. I mean most of the people I know are quite good. Okay, they are not doing their final loop but they are on a good way.

[lonely_cube]

True, but there are lots of people who must be on pretty early loops. Just looking at society in general. And you'd think that everyone would have looped around the same number of times (unless they died really young, but I don't think even that would have an effect, if you think about it). The idea of everyone looping does create lots of paradoxes. But I'm sure Gan figured out a way to get past those

[pathoftheturtle]

All loops would be finished. Time and destiny. It would mean that we are living in the past and all of our perceptions are illusions.

The real question is, “What are the moral implications of being reincarnated as oneself?” If God changed the past for my benefit, how would that affect other souls? Let's say hypothetically that the changes I needed to experience were not beneficial to someone I know, and I learned that, and wished for them to be undone. Let's say that every choice of everyone were redone and redone until the whole complex best suited everyone involved. Would it be possible at that point for the past to be changed even further? Or would that be the limit? Is it possible that things could have been brought into a state which requires no re-writing of time without any re-writing of time ever having been required?

(BTW, I love it that one of the poll options is "I need some time to be able to answer" ! How ironic.)

[Letti]

True, but there are lots of people who must be on pretty early loops. Just looking at society in general. And you'd think that everyone would have looped around the same number of times (unless they died really young , but I don't think even that would have an effect, if you think about it). The idea of everyone looping does create lots of paradoxes. But I'm sure Gan figured out a way to get past those

Maybe they just need much more time to be able to change. Some may need only 9231 loops while others 9.213.883 loops.
Sounds cool, doesn't it?

All loops would be finished. Time and destiny. It would mean that we are living in the past and all of our perceptions are illusions.

The real question is, “What are the moral implications of being reincarnated as oneself?” 1. If God changed the past for my benefit, how would that affect other souls? Let's say hypothetically that the changes I needed to experience were not beneficial to someone I know, and I learned that, and wished for them to be undone. Let's say that every choice of everyone were redone and redone until the whole complex best suited everyone involved. Would it be possible at that point for the past to be changed even further? Or would that be the limit? Is it possible that things could have been brought into a state which requires no re-writing of time without any re-writing of time ever having been required?

(BTW, 2. I love it that one of the poll options is "I need some time to be able to answer" ! How ironic.)

1. Well I think it could work only if every living soul had its own universe.

2. And no one has chosen that option yet.

[pathoftheturtle]

...it could work only if every living soul had its own universe.
...

*shudder*
Speaking of horrid thoughts, another way of putting that is the idea that there's really only one living soul (God) and each of us is just another reincarnation of Him. It's easy to justify nearly any possibility if our distinct personhoods are thus shown to be entirely illusionary. *shudder*

[Brainslinger]

But... what if there is neither heaven nor hell nor reincarnation what if God (or you can think any of His names here) sends us back just like Roland got sent back. What if this is our only life and we have to stand and be true in this one.

I was brought up a Christian. I prayed the salvation prayer quite young and I've recently restarted going to church again after a few years absence, so I guess I could say I still am a Christian, although I'm not exactly a devoted one. Too undisciplined, and too questioning. Heh. So I doubt recycling is the case.

That being said, part of me thinks that wouldn't be a bad set up. I much prefer the idea of bettering oneself, correcting your mistakes,(well okay you wouldn't be correcting, you wouldn't be making them in the first place). I've always thought hell needlessly cruel. I can understand God keeping sinners out of heaven, but eternal torture is hard to accept.

I've often thought reincarnation a good idea for that very reason. Not the same thing, but it still follows the idea of bettering oneself. I suppose the Catholic idea of purgatory is similar in a way (you're not reborn, but if I understand it correctly you get a chance to better yourself in the afterlife) except it isn't actually Biblical, so I doubt that's the case.

"So why does he go to Church if I feel that way?" you might be thinking. Well, one thing I've learnt in life is that what we want has little to do with how things are. And if there is any chance of eternal damnation, I'd rather not take that chance. That and keeping away when you have questions isn't the answer.

It's difficult though, because my attitude towards hell breeds resentment and that's one thing (amongst many, to be fair) that makes it hard to be a good Christian. It's all rather paradoxical, but I am not completely without hope and the idea there is something to lean on is no small thing. I really hope the concepts surrounding hell are merely misinterpretations though.

And if you think it might be possible... why would you be sent back this time? Where did you fail?

Heh. Where do I start?

Or do you feel you could stand as much as possible?

Well, if my mind is reset, it probably wouldn't be that bad. Each time would seem like the first to me (apart from a bit of deja vu) so I could probably do it a lot of times. I will admit to feeling rather tired in this life though. Not that I'm miserable all the time. There are always films to watch and books to read and friends to hang with. (Rather infrequently but it's better than nothing,) and things to see.

And where would you be sent back?

I don't know, but I think I would be young.

[Brice]

1. Well I think it could work only if every living soul had its own universe.

Oh, it could work also if every choice created a universe.

[candy]

no i don't think it could happen, it would mean that everysingle person has their own universe, whereby your choices affected only you. And i know the universe doesn't revolve around me!!!

Also, if it didn't involved a billion trillion universes for each person reincarnation, and there was only one universe, then that would be unfair, as each choice i make affects someone else, and it could lead to something awful. And to keep making that decision over and over again is something that i would not like to contemplate

[pathoftheturtle]

I was brought up a Christian. I prayed the salvation prayer quite young and I've recently restarted going to church again ... I've always thought hell needlessly cruel. ...

What church?

I think that the traditional teaching of hell in some sects does indeed describe needless cruelty. Several denominations today hold that there is no hell. I'm not 100% on the facts, but I believe that if there's a hell, it's necessary. I don't believe that God invented sin.

This thread is asking whether the things we’ve done might be erased at our deaths, and us sent back to try again, resuming experience through this linear state of conscious with the major difference being only our course. Maybe I’m wrong, but, no, I don’t believe that occurs. That’s consistent with my vote on the thread which asks whether we believe that other universes, alternate realities where unrealized alternate events are played out, really exist. I seriously doubt all of that. I do believe that there’s more to life than one simple linear time span, but I think that multiple lines of living is also more simple then what there actually is.
I’m not so sure that the type of experience which I have so far had is all that existence is about. There’s so much that I can’t see. Sometimes I think about the pain I cause carelessly by making acid rain, burning gas because it’s fun for me to drive around. Would we be better off if I just stopped thinking about that?
If we each have our own universe, are the other people who (that?) we see in that universe of ours real people? What I mean by “real” is, can they see us?
I shudder because, if not, then it would mean that I’m really alone. Everyone I know must actually be just my puppets, and all of my relationships are meaningless. Wouldn’t it be horrible if the people you believe that you love turned out to be only extensions of yourself?
If such people are real, conversely, then might not I myself be one of the persons in someone else’s reality? Can I be sure whether the universe I see now is mine or the universe of someone I see? How?
If I behave as though the people around me are copies of people from other universes put here to serve me, and I’m wrong; if it turns out that *I* am a copy of the real me who should be living to serve John Smith of Boise, Idaho, will that upset the Tower? Would it be worse to risk losing my own universe by behaving as though this is not it, or to risk losing all of them through self-absorption?

To put it in a way related to TDT, with a reference plainly used by SK: I’d rather be a cowardly lion than to be the king of the jungle.

... In my experience life, nature, nor gods are very forgiving.

I think it depends on what you’re looking for. How you define “forgiveness.” I do believe that what is done is done. We can’t escape from karma.
Imagine that you died and your ghost began to see across time and the universe, beyond the narrow constraints of your physical senses. In that new form of experiencing existence, when you’d learned every of secret of every other soul, would you forgive all of them?
Seriously, what if the afterlife is filled with new awareness of a past that we can’t change? I guess that if I suffered in eternity for choices that I make without knowing all about what they mean, that’d be unjust… perhaps the Powers-That-Be will help me to deal with the results in the analog of future on that plane outside of time. (Put differently, if we look at the history we create as permanent, perhaps in some way unknown to me, I am being helped already.) On the other hand, I do know now that I don’t know all that goes on in reality, so perhaps that is reason enough for me to be held responsible for acting on my own. Can I claim the right to intelligence? When I don’t know enough to make my own rules, should I do so anyway with the excuse that those who do know didn’t tell me what I needed? Are we all entitled to demand all entitlement? Maybe partial guidance is all the help I really need.

Still, I can’t blame Roland just for tooting his own horn. lol

[Brainslinger]

I was brought up a Christian. I prayed the salvation prayer quite young and I've recently restarted going to church again ... I've always thought hell needlessly cruel. ...

What church?

It's called Bromley Christian Centre, an Assemblies of God Church. (Pentacostal.)
I actually missed the last 2 Sundays... although I did go to a meal and event last Tuesday. It's not bad, but I'm undecided if it's where I want to be.

I believe that if there's a hell, it's necessary.

I hope that would be the case. If such a place has to be necessary. I think, maybe in the end I just question things too much and maybe I should just let go and have faith there's a righteous answer even if I don't know what it is. Which I suppose is what faith is all about.

I don't believe that God invented sin.

Me neither. At least not directly. Sin is often described as that which is outside God's will. He has a will, so therefore sin exists in consequence. If that makes sense...

If we each have our own universe, are the other people who (that?) we see in that universe of ours real people? What I mean by “real” is, can they see us?

Interesting ideas. This brings to mind a certain popular TV series which has just finished over here, Ashes to Ashes. (It's a spin-off from the British Life On Mars.) I won't spoil if you haven't seen it, but lets just say it got all rather strange and existential,

Spoiler:

answering certain questions raised in Life on Mars, yet raising other questions as a result. I'm not saying other people turn out to be fake, but it does raise these kinds of questions concerning reality. And in case you've seen it, it's not the same twist you get from the American remake of LoM.

[Brice]

I believe that if there's a hell, it's necessary.

I hope that would be the case. If such a place has to be necessary. I think, maybe in the end I just question things too much and maybe I should just let go and have faith there's a righteous answer even if I don't know what it is. Which I suppose is what faith is all about.

I know my sin here is arrogance, but I don't think so. Why would a place created by a forgiving god need to be made for eternal suffering? Why would there be a need for such a thing...if not for his own pride, vanity, and/or ego?

I don't believe that God invented sin.

Me neither. At least not directly. Sin is often described as that which is outside God's will. He has a will, so therefore sin exists in consequence. If that makes sense...

So if what's not within his will is sin than we are guilty for not knowing his will?

Actually I'm not sure of the exact book, chapter, and verse, but presuming you follow the holy bible there is at least one verse which quite clearly states that god did create sin/evil. I'll try to find it.

If we each have our own universe, are the other people who (that?) we see in that universe of ours real people? What I mean by “real” is, can they see us?

Interesting ideas. This brings to mind a certain popular TV series which has just finished over here, Ashes to Ashes. (It's a spin-off from the British Life On Mars.) I won't spoil if you haven't seen it, but lets just say it got all rather strange and existential,

Spoiler:

answering certain questions raised in Life on Mars, yet raising other questions as a result. I'm not saying other people turn out to be fake, but it does raise these kinds of questions concerning reality. And in case you've seen it, it's not the same twist you get from the American remake of LoM.

In answer to the above question...I think if we have our own universe/s the people are all real as we are all real in theirs...it can get a bit confusing, but all are aspects of each other and all are simultaneously complete irrespective of the others.

Think of the whole trinity thing on a grander scale.

[Brainslinger]

I know my sin here is arrogance, but I don't think so. Why would a place created by a forgiving god need to be made for eternal suffering? Why would there be a need for such a thing...if not for his own pride, vanity, and/or ego?

Believe it or not, that's what really bothered me too and was one of the reasons I stayed out of Church for a while. Thing is... keeping away just didn't bring any answers.

I don't believe that God invented sin.

Me neither. At least not directly. Sin is often described as that which is outside God's will. He has a will, so therefore sin exists in consequence. If that makes sense...

So if what's not within his will is sin than we are guilty for not knowing his will?

I probably phrased that wrong. I don't mean we're sinful for not knowing his will, as in what he wants to happen or has planned for our lives, because it is impossible to know the full will of God.

I was just speculating that maybe it's best to have faith that any decision God has made is the right one, even if we don't know why and find it questionable. I'm somewhat in two minds about this too as part of me thinks that as sentient moral beings we should have the right to weigh what we see and judge accordingly, but on the other hand, we only see in part, and for faith to work there must be a large degree of trust. I find it hard though. Especially when I consider that gunman in Cumbria who gunned down a bunch of innocent people recently. (One a churchgoer too, one an ambulance worker. Not that they are more worthy than others, but it makes you think.) Sure it was the guys fault, and free will means such things can happen, but that doesn't make the innocents less requiring of protection.

Actually I'm not sure of the exact book, chapter, and verse, but presuming you follow the holy bible there is at least one verse which quite clearly states that god did create sin/evil. I'll try to find it.

Hmm. I'm curious.

[Brice]

I know my sin here is arrogance, but I don't think so. Why would a place created by a forgiving god need to be made for eternal suffering? Why would there be a need for such a thing...if not for his own pride, vanity, and/or ego?

Believe it or not, that's what really bothered me too and was one of the reasons I stayed out of Church for a while. Thing is... keeping away just didn't bring any answers.

Keeping away doesn't give answers...nor in my case, does going. I suspect the answers (presuming a god here) are the things that I implied although that's contrary to what seems to be the intended spirit of the faith.

I don't believe that God invented sin.

Me neither. At least not directly. Sin is often described as that which is outside God's will. He has a will, so therefore sin exists in consequence. If that makes sense...

So if what's not within his will is sin than we are guilty for not knowing his will?

I probably phrased that wrong. I don't mean we're sinful for not knowing his will, as in what he wants to happen or has planned for our lives, because it is impossible to know the full will of God.

I was just speculating that maybe it's best to have faith that any decision God has made is the right one, even if we don't know why and find it questionable. I'm somewhat in two minds about this too as part of me thinks that as sentient moral beings we should have the right to weigh what we see and judge accordingly, but on the other hand, we only see in part, and for faith to work there must be a large degree of trust. I find it hard though. Especially when I consider that gunman in Cumbria who gunned down a bunch of innocent people recently. (One a churchgoer too, one an ambulance worker. Not that they are more worthy than others, but it makes you think.) Sure it was the guys fault, and free will means such things can happen, but that doesn't make the innocents less requiring of protection.[/quote]

Again back to my arrogance here...in for a penny....

So called free will is the crux of my problems with the belief system...well, that and the fact that I don't believe.

I not only think we have a right to judge, I think we have a moral responsibility to do so.

I think you make at least one mistake here that a lot of folks religious and non make though...belief isn't really a choice....certainly not a conscious one...nor is non belief. It's not like I can wake tomorrow and decide I'm not gonna' disbelieve anymore than you could reasonably make the opposite choice. Life/circumstance/gods/whatever makes it so you have no real choice in the matter thus negating the illusion of free will. You can make singular choices or even overall choices regarding good and evil, but ultimately your beliefs are thrust upon you. If salvation is only available through a belief in Christ/god then I am denied that salvation by the same.

Actually I'm not sure of the exact book, chapter, and verse, but presuming you follow the holy bible there is at least one verse which quite clearly states that god did create sin/evil. I'll try to find it.

Hmm. I'm curious.

I'm still looking. It's not one of the more commonly quoted verses.

[Brice]

I know my sin here is arrogance, but I don't think so. Why would a place created by a forgiving god need to be made for eternal suffering? Why would there be a need for such a thing...if not for his own pride, vanity, and/or ego?

Believe it or not, that's what really bothered me too and was one of the reasons I stayed out of Church for a while. Thing is... keeping away just didn't bring any answers.

Keeping away doesn't give answers...nor in my case, does going. I suspect the answers (presuming a god here) are the things that I implied although that's contrary to what seems to be the intended spirit of the faith.

I don't believe that God invented sin.

Me neither. At least not directly. Sin is often described as that which is outside God's will. He has a will, so therefore sin exists in consequence. If that makes sense...

So if what's not within his will is sin than we are guilty for not knowing his will?

I probably phrased that wrong. I don't mean we're sinful for not knowing his will, as in what he wants to happen or has planned for our lives, because it is impossible to know the full will of God.

I was just speculating that maybe it's best to have faith that any decision God has made is the right one, even if we don't know why and find it questionable. I'm somewhat in two minds about this too as part of me thinks that as sentient moral beings we should have the right to weigh what we see and judge accordingly, but on the other hand, we only see in part, and for faith to work there must be a large degree of trust. I find it hard though. Especially when I consider that gunman in Cumbria who gunned down a bunch of innocent people recently. (One a churchgoer too, one an ambulance worker. Not that they are more worthy than others, but it makes you think.) Sure it was the guys fault, and free will means such things can happen, but that doesn't make the innocents less requiring of protection.

Again back to my arrogance here...in for a penny....

So called free will is the crux of my problems with the belief system...well, that and the fact that I don't believe.

I not only think we have a right to judge, I think we have a moral responsibility to do so.

I think you make at least one mistake here that a lot of folks religious and non make though...belief isn't really a choice....certainly not a conscious one...nor is non belief. It's not like I can wake tomorrow and decide I'm not gonna' disbelieve anymore than you could reasonably make the opposite choice. Life/circumstance/gods/whatever makes it so you have no real choice in the matter thus negating the illusion of free will. You can make singular choices or even overall choices regarding good and evil, but ultimately your beliefs are thrust upon you. If salvation is only available through a belief in Christ/god then I am denied that salvation by the same.

Actually I'm not sure of the exact book, chapter, and verse, but presuming you follow the holy bible there is at least one verse which quite clearly states that god did create sin/evil. I'll try to find it.

Hmm. I'm curious.[/QUOTE]

I'm still looking. It's not one of the more commonly quoted verses.

[lonely_cube]

People are saying that you would need a different universe for each person. In that case, the other people around me wouldn't be real. None of you would be real either. If that was the case, there would be no reason not to believe that I'm the only "real" person that exists anywhere, in any universe. Obviously this isn't true, it's just a thought.

[Brice]

Well, alternate universes don't necessarily mean that anyone or anything in any of those universes isn't real, so really it's not obvious. While there's no reason to not believe your the only real person conversely there'd be no reason to believe you were.

[lonely_cube]

I guess that's true. But since you're sitting there reading this, you must know you really exist. But you don't know I really exist either, so there isn't any way to prove it one way or the other.

[Brice]

The fact that I exist is a universal/multiversal truth.

Probability is fairly high that you're there somewhere too.