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Thread: Jericho Hill - who betrayed the gunslingers? *spoilers*

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    Traveler varyar is on a distinguished road

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    Default Jericho Hill - who betrayed the gunslingers? *spoilers*

    Hi, folks. Long time reader, first time poster, as they might say.

    Anyhoo. I was rereading Roland's flashback to the battle (one of my favorite passages in the book and the whole series, for that matter), and something popped out at me again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen king
    "Roland!" he cries. "We've been betrayed! We're outnumbered! Our backs are to the sea! We've got em right where we want em! Shall we charge?"

    And Roland understands he is right. If their quest for the Dark Tower is really to end here on Jericho Hill -- betrayed by one of their own and then overwhelmed by this barbaric remnant of John Farson's army -- then let it end splendidly.
    So... who was the traitor? It wasn't Alain or Jamie, unless Roland was doing some seriously selective remembering earlier in the flashback. Thomas Whitman is the only other gunslinger we know by name. Was it him? Why? Or was it Sheemie, inadvertantly causing disaster? Theories? Speculation?

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    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Hmm. I don't know. Sometimes circumstances can betray instead of people.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    firstly, welcome to the site varyar.

    brice, um, i mean Cthulhu (), makes an excellent point. betrayal can take many forms.

    but if we are speculating about a betrayal by a gunslinger, while there are only a handful of gunslingers whose names we know, it could have easily been one of the many others.

    it's been a while since i last re-read wolves, so correct me if i'm wrong, but does not roland mention something about there having been something like 100 of them initially at jericho hill? subtract alain, jamie and thomas and that still leaves 97 possible traitors.
    Last edited by lux interior; 10-25-2009 at 07:27 AM. Reason: a traitorous gunslinger said i had to?

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    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    I'd correct you if you were wrong, but I'm pretty damn sure you're right.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
    I'd correct you if you were wrong, but I'm pretty damn sure you're right.
    thanks. i suspect monte or matthew could quote the passage directly, but i definitely recall the word "hundred" being in there.

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    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Between the two of them they could probably quote the book from memory.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    At the shore end of the pier, for perhaps a minute, Dick held his own with a handful; one or two were wounded upon either side; steel crossed steel; nor had there been the least signal of advantage, when in the twinkling of an eye the tide turned against the party from the ship. Someone cried out that all was lost; the men were in the very humour to lend an ear to a discomfortable counsel; the cry was taken up. "On board, lads, for your lives!" cried another. A third, with the true instinct of the coward, raised that inevitable report on all retreats: "We are betrayed!"
    (R.L.Stevenson. The Black Arrow)

    I am not saying there were cowards between those on Jericho Hill - but the "inevitable report" part rings very true to me.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by varyar View Post
    Hi, folks. Long time reader, first time poster, as they might say.

    Anyhoo. I was rereading Roland's flashback to the battle (one of my favorite passages in the book and the whole series, for that matter), and something popped out at me again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen king
    "Roland!" he cries. "We've been betrayed! We're outnumbered! Our backs are to the sea! We've got em right where we want em! Shall we charge?"

    And Roland understands he is right. If their quest for the Dark Tower is really to end here on Jericho Hill -- betrayed by one of their own and then overwhelmed by this barbaric remnant of John Farson's army -- then let it end splendidly.
    So... who was the traitor? It wasn't Alain or Jamie, unless Roland was doing some seriously selective remembering earlier in the flashback. Thomas Whitman is the only other gunslinger we know by name. Was it him? Why? Or was it Sheemie, inadvertantly causing disaster? Theories? Speculation?
    I don't know (we don't know) who betrayed the gunslingers but I think if the traitor had been one of Roland's old friends or pals he would have named them.
    Anyway definitely not Sheemie.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Cowboy from Hell Myste is on a distinguished road Myste's Avatar

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    ^ I agree that one completely!


    ďThe devil's voice is sweet to hear.Ē
    -SK.

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    Traveler varyar is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oh Dae-Su View Post
    I don't know (we don't know) who betrayed the gunslingers but I think if the traitor had been one of Roland's old friends or pals he would have named them.
    Anyway definitely not Sheemie.
    Shoulda made it clearer (like, at all clear) that I meant Sheemie would have inadvertently betrayed the gunslingers. Poor kid never would've done it on purpose, but he could be tricked into it.

    As for the other gunslingers, IIRC, there were only a dozen or so students left at the end, plus whatever adult gunslingers survived the fall of Gilead itself.

    Before the last three books, I would have pegged Alain as the traitor, since we didn't know what circumstances lead to Roland and Cuthbert blowing him away, just that they did. I'm glad for that clarification, at least, since I liked Alain.

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    shrewd and knavish sprite flaggwalkstheline will become famous soon enough flaggwalkstheline's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by varyar View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Oh Dae-Su View Post
    I don't know (we don't know) who betrayed the gunslingers but I think if the traitor had been one of Roland's old friends or pals he would have named them.
    Anyway definitely not Sheemie.
    Shoulda made it clearer (like, at all clear) that I meant Sheemie would have inadvertently betrayed the gunslingers. Poor kid never would've done it on purpose, but he could be tricked into it.

    As for the other gunslingers, IIRC, there were only a dozen or so students left at the end, plus whatever adult gunslingers survived the fall of Gilead itself.

    Before the last three books, I would have pegged Alain as the traitor, since we didn't know what circumstances lead to Roland and Cuthbert blowing him away, just that they did. I'm glad for that clarification, at least, since I liked Alain.
    I was under the impression that roland and cuthbert betrayed alain by shooting him in a moment of friendly fire panic when they werent sure who was there...
    if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do

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    John F. Kennedy pol is on a distinguished road pol's Avatar

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    ****DT 7 Spoilers included****


    This is a thread that hits close to home....I just read this in a recent re-read of WOTC, just yesterday in fact.

    Not much has been said about these events in the series, and the bit about a betrayal makes its brief mention all the more interesting. As it has been pointed out this can be taken a number of ways...inadvertently Sheemie...another Gunslinger...Circumstance...but one that I have always thought about which hasn't been mentioned is Roland himself. Throughout the series (at least the loop we are privy too) Roland has played the role of traitor many times and on many levels....he even admits it in W&G when speaking to Eddie about the dream with the bulldozer in the vacant lot:

    .....Still Eddie hesitated. "You'd never betray us, would you, Roland?"
    "No man can say that for sure, Eddie, and I have already played the betrayer more
    than once. To my shame. But ... I think those days are over.....

    Hard to say what this means...does it relate to Jake, Susan, Alain...a combination thereof and/or possibly other events. It seems unlikely that Roland would ever consciously betray the Quest for the Tower...at least not in the loop we see...but what if...perhaps he could have been tricked (thinking of Rhea)? Roland is a very tragic character and one that seems to be learning more and more as he loops. This could potentially allude to why he did not pick up the Horn from Cuthbert at Jericho Hill...and why perhaps he now has the Horn at the end of DTVII.

    Obviously there is no hard evidence to support this (that I know of) but I think that on some level this possibility could be considered.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    pol, it's an interesting point you raise and surely roland has played the betrayer of his companions before when he thought he was doing the right thing (the most obvious example seems to be jake under the mountains)

    however, with respect to jericho hill, i re-read that section earlier today because of this thread.

    it is cuthbert who says they were betrayed and roland who thinks "betrayed by one of their own."

    that seems an extremely odd thing for roland to think if he was the one who did the betraying, unless he likes to talk about himself in the third person

    "george is getting upset!"

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    It couldn't have been Roland. Okay, Roland is not a saint that's sure but he isn't such a cheap gutless traitor, either. He wouldn't have been able to look into Cuthbert's eyes anymore.

    Roland would have understood.

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    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Roland being the traitor at Jericho Hill would give the whole saga such a new unexpected turn I personally am at present not ready to consider...

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokey View Post
    Roland being the traitor at Jericho Hill would give the whole saga such a new unexpected turn I personally am at present not ready to consider...
    For me it's simply a NO WAY..

    Roland would have understood.

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    John F. Kennedy pol is on a distinguished road pol's Avatar

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    I'm glad my comments have yielded some discussion....

    lux your point is well taken and it is one that I raised as well when reading that segment. In my post I indicated that Roland would likely never consciously betray his quest or his friends (although he certainly does to Jake at one point)....but on another level I think this is certainly within the realm of possibility...perhaps without even knowing what he has done, hence his statement "betrayed by one of their own." It also begs the question why didn't he grab the horn...in the todash sequence it is stated that he "will forget all about Eld's Horn"...to me that just seems odd...this horn apppears to have quite a monumental role and it's just forgotten (also Roland doesn't seem like the type to just forget something)...also, just how in the blazes does Roland get out of there...where Grissom and his men are advancing on him against the sea.

    I just raise the possibility because I think it can certainly exist...and if on some level he knows it, the more terrible and tragic his character becomes. To take it a step further...perhaps if on some level he did betray his friends, unconscious or not, this is what allowed him, and only him, to progress on after the Tower...as we know it was a sacrifice later in the storyline which allowed him, and only him, to progress to the man in black, the beach, the doors and all that followed.

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    I think when roland talks about playing the betrayer he means that he feels it's unfair that cuthbert and his other friends all died while he survived and also how he accidentally took out his mother and just his general willingness to sacrifice those close to him to get to the tower
    if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do

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    Along the Path of the Beam overhoser is on a distinguished road

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    I think this is a fascinating question here are some other things to think about:

    As someone else noted, Roland wouldn't think about himself in the third person. But in the passage, he's not thinking "betrayed by one of their own." It's the narrator speaking. The narration is italicized, but Roland's thoughts are in plain text, as on the next page: "One last time, then, he thinks. Let it be so." So, it's the narrator describing the group in the third person, not Roland. This leaves Roland open as a possibility.

    We should also think about who was betrayed: it was DeMullet's column that was ambushed, not Roland's group. The column was ambushed, so they were on the move. The betrayer would have to be someone that knew where they were going. Again, Roland is still a possibility.

    But, then again, why would he forget the horn if he were the betrayer? He was clearly overcome with grief...but at the loss of his friends or because he was responsible?

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    The fact that Roland told all his big crimes to his friends, his ka-tet makes me sure that Roland couldn't have been the betrayer. He would have told them if he had had his hands in it.

    Roland would have understood.

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    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    guys, Roland could have betrayed people to his heart's content, if it served the cause; but he would never betray the cause itself, and the fight between Gilead and Farson's rebels was The Cause at the moment.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Along the Path of the Beam LovesSweetExile is on a distinguished road

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    Wasn't it John Farsons nephew?

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    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    John Farson's nephew was on John Farson's side. So unless he went undercover posing as one of the gunslinger's own... I doubt it.

    The comic series The Fall of Gilead does give the answer though. If you take the comics as legit. While there is much in the comics I'm not keen on, that particular tale was quite interesting.
    Spoiler:
    And rather sad.

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    Traveler Saintmatthew is on a distinguished road

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    Once can even be betrayed by one's own self confidence, one's presumptions....even tides of fate.

    @pol ....I forget which book, pretty sure it's volume 7, it says Roland escaped by hiding underneath bodies and being taken out in a cart full of them.

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    Citizen of Gilead Roland of Gilead 33 is on a distinguished road Roland of Gilead 33's Avatar

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    i just read this scene tonite. & maybe Roland said he played the betrayer cuz him & Cuthbert killed Alain. even though it wasn't on purpose you understand. i also am curious who was the one who betrayed them. i don't think it was sheemie either. intentional or not. the guy isn't as dumb as people think he is.

    i think he played dumb to the people in mejis. & even though he did i'm sure have. i forget the term at the moment. i think he was smarter than people give him credit for. for example he was smart enough to follow Susan & to stay hidden. when she got kidnapped. a stupid person would have tried to stop him. by himself i mean.

    i don't think it was either Roland or Alain Or really any of Rolands original Ka-Tet. he would have killed them right away. & if was Alain he would have at some point admitted it to his 2nd Ka-Tet.

    i never thought of him as perfect either. i am curious how old the Roland & Alain & Cuthert actually were when they were killed on Jerico Hill. it really didn't say.

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