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View Poll Results: Which is the best movie character of all time? ONLY TWO ADVANCE!

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36. You may not vote on this poll
  • Ed Bloom (Big Fish)

    2 5.56%
  • Neo (The Matrix trilogy)

    8 22.22%
  • Mr. Pink (Reservoir Dogs)

    4 11.11%
  • Vito Corleone (The Godfather)

    10 27.78%
  • Clark Griswold (National Lampoon films)

    3 8.33%
  • Raymond Babbitt (Rain Man)

    3 8.33%
  • Red (The Shawshank Redemption)

    6 16.67%
  • Police Chief Martin Brody (Jaws)

    0 0%
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Thread: BMCOAT - Round 2, Group C

  1. #51
    Otter of the Prim cozener will become famous soon enough cozener will become famous soon enough cozener's Avatar

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    It isn't Keanu Reeves I hate. Its the poor execution of a great idea for a movie that rankles me. Sorry Still, I just don't think Matrix was done that well. Sure, the first one is a fun movie...not a bad movie by any stretch. I just think it could have been better. Yes, they could have found a better actor to play Neo but considering the limitations of the script it may as well have been Reeves as well as anyone else. As far as acting was concerned, the shiniest parts of that movie (or any of the three) were the parts with Agent Smith in them. But Weaving has the kind of gravitas that elevates the lines he's speaking and makes them sound special.

    About Keanu Reeves, an actor like Reeves has his uses. He can play certain parts quite well. And you're right that Speed was a good movie. But thats the kind of thing he should stick to...the Speeds and the Point Breaks. If its going to be something that requires depth or range...no. He was also good in My Own Private Idaho but again, his character was pretty shallow. The depth of feeling in that movie came from River Phoenix.

  2. #52
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Woofer, I'm almost certain it was outer limits ...and a Harlan Ellison one at that. I haven't seen that other series you mentioned before.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

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  3. #53
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woofer View Post
    And I'm sorry, but the idea behind The Matrix was done in an old black and white science fiction show, either the Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, or Science Fiction Theater. Still, I enjoyed the movie but not enough to go out of my way to watch it again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cozener View Post
    Sorry Still, I just don't think Matrix was done that well. Sure, the first one is a fun movie...not a bad movie by any stretch. I just think it could have been better. Yes, they could have found a better actor to play Neo but considering the limitations of the script it may as well have been Reeves as well as anyone else.
    ah, this is why i like you two so much.

    thank you for refreshing my faith in humanity.

    knowing that i trail only woofer in despising mr. reeves, people assume i didn't like the matrix because of him. i can assure you, they could have cast (insert name of amazing actor here) and i'd still have not cared for it for the exact reasons woofer and coz have suggested.

    the idea has not only been done before in film, it is among the classic philosophical hypotheticals that i encountered in class after class. my problem with it is just as coz expressed, it was an excellent idea but poorly executed.

    and speed? i'm sorry, i hated that one. admittedly, i am not a fan of the vast majority of action movies, but speed serves as an excellent example of why.

    at least vito moved on. if vito had lost to neo and, well pretty much anyone else in this bracket, it would have been a travesty.

  4. #54
    Wolf Woofer will become famous soon enough Woofer will become famous soon enough Woofer's Avatar

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    You guys.

    Brice, the more I think about it, the more I think you nailed it. Just don't tell Harlan that I forgot one of his stories. He has a really big ego (and a TV set almost as big).
    It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
    A whole lot more than riches and muscle.

    The hands of the many must join as one.
    And together we'll cross the river.

    Puscifer, "The Humbling River"


  5. #55
    Those who cling to life; Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woofer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Still Servant View Post
    Wow, so much hate for Neo. Despite what some of you may think, the original Matrix is an amazing film. I also think that for Reeves' limits as an actor, he does a really good job as Neo.

    You guys really hate Reeves that much? Are you telling me you don't like Speed? Speed was such a cool movie. Mind boggling.

    I pity those that can't look past their hatred for an actor and enjoy a movie. I can assure you, you're missing out on a lot of great films.
    Hold on a minute. What objective scale of measure is there by which you hold up "The Matrix" to measure it as "an amazing film"? Or are you expressing your opinion? I'm going to guess that you're simply expressing an opinion (just as I have been).

    I freely admit that I am the most vociferous of the People here who hate Keanu Reeves. Yes yes yes yes yes 1,000 times yes. I can't stand {ETA} Tom Cruise*{/ETA} or Ben Affleck** either. That doesn't mean I won't see a movie with them, just that I really don't like the actors and, as a result, generally don't like the characters they play. Also, if it is a movie that only mildly piqued my interest in the first place, then yes, KR being in it would stop me from seeing the movie. It would be the proverbial straw - camel - broken back scenario.

    And I'm sorry, but the idea behind The Matrix was done in an old black and white science fiction show, either the Twilight Zone, Outer Limits, or Science Fiction Theater. Still, I enjoyed the movie but not enough to go out of my way to watch it again. (EDIT: Just saw Brice's note about it probably being OL. I tend to agree. TZ was always on the lighter side. Although it could've been Science Fiction Theater... Obviously it wasn't exactly the same, but it was a world taken over by aliens. The protagonist wakes up to find he's been dreaming his entire life. It ends with him looking out over all the other humans in their little bins hooked up to the giant alien computer. I think his pod had failed somehow and that's why he woke.)

    I got bored with Speed pretty rapidly, so I've never seen it all the way through.

    I'm certain there are movies I think are awesome and that you think suck; however, that doesn't turn either of our opinions into fact. It's sort of like this picture... Old woman? Young lady? Both!



    *But Cruise made a fantastic Lestat in IWtV.
    **At least Affleck can change his expression.
    Here's my philsophy on film:

    Everybody has their own opinions on what films are good and what films are not. Like you said, there are films that you think are great that I would say suck and vice verse.

    That being said, there are some facts when evaluating movies. If I were to say Citizen Kane was an awful film, I would be wrong. There are right and wrong answers with many films.

    If 100 people say the sky is blue and 20 say it's purple, who's right?

    I'm just going to use one example, but The Matrix has an 89% fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes. That means there are 105 people that liked it and 17 who didn't. True, just because they liked it doesn't make it an "amazing" film. That is the subjective part of my statement. My opinion as you put it.

    That does not take away the fact that The Matrix is a very good movie. A sci-fi classic. Anybody who thinks it's not a good movie (in their opinion) is wrong.

    Yes, their opinion is wrong. It happens.

    I have arguments like this with my cousin all the time. It's what I love about movies.
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  6. #56
    Banned sarajean is on a distinguished road

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    no.

    definition of opinion:

    a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty.
    you can NOT tell me that my personal belief or judgment is WRONG. it is MY opinion and is therefore valid. you telling me that my opinion is wrong is the equivalent of telling me to shut the fuck up, and i just won't do that.

    sorry.

    (but really, i'm not)


  7. #57
    Those who cling to life; Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant's Avatar

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    No, I'm telling you that the majority can't be wrong. Although I'm sure there are certain instances.

    Everybody always uses the opinion card (I do it too) but sometimes it really doesn't apply. If you don't like a movie and thousands of other people like it then I think more weight must be given to the majority. I'm sorry, I just do.

    It doesn't mean their opinion means more than yours, but it has to count for something.

    I definitely didn't mean it as shut the fuck up though. I must correct that.
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  8. #58
    Banned sarajean is on a distinguished road

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    okay, but...again.

    an opinion is a PERSONAL BELIEF. you can't tell someone that their PERSONAL BELIEF is wrong. whether YOU CHOOSE to give more weight to someone else's opinion that you happen to agree with is not the same as telling someone that their opinion is WRONG.

  9. #59
    Rebel Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19 has a reputation beyond repute Heather19's Avatar

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    OK, I'm just going to jump in here to say one thing. I kinda understand what you're trying to say. There are definitely some films that I hate, that I can at least step back and say that while I didn't enjoy it, it was still a well made film, or can appreciate it for what it did for cinema as a whole. That being said, I still personally didn't enjoy the film, and would never watch it again.
    Only the gentle are ever really strong.

  10. #60
    Those who cling to life; Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant's Avatar

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    My intent wasn't to ruffle any feathers.

    I will retract the statement about an opinion being wrong.

    I still think something has to be said for the majority rules. I like what Heather said though.

    There are a ton of films that I just don't "get" and don't like, but I can understand and respect them as good films. Even if my opinion differs.

    Again, I didn't mean to make people mad.
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  11. #61
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    No worries, you didn't upset me
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  12. #62
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Servant View Post
    No, I'm telling you that the majority can't be wrong. Although I'm sure there are certain instances.
    dateline 1492

    the majority thinks the world is flat

    despite this, columbus' fleet manages to somehow not sail off the edge of the world

    the majority is not right because they are the majority

    a larger number of positive reviews on rotten tomatoes does not demonstrate a great film. it's called anecdotal evidence and it's worth fuck all.

    even your is the sky blue or purple example is faulty on its face. it's a matter of perception. no two of us see shades of colors in precisely the same way. it is distinctly possible that the minority opinion holder does in fact see a purple sky. his disagreement with the majority does not invalidate his interpretation.

  13. #63
    Wolf Woofer will become famous soon enough Woofer will become famous soon enough Woofer's Avatar

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    jayson and sj are correct.

    While I appreciate your attempt to educate me on how to analyze a film, Still Servant, I am a professional technical writer and a former prof of college literature, composition, and literary analysis. I'm pretty sure that I know the difference between a subjective opinion and objective evidence.

    It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
    A whole lot more than riches and muscle.

    The hands of the many must join as one.
    And together we'll cross the river.

    Puscifer, "The Humbling River"


  14. #64
    Demon of the Prim IWasSentWest is on a distinguished road IWasSentWest's Avatar

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    easy fellas, easy. no need to be throwin around job titles and shut the fuck ups! opinions do that to people, make em all antsy in their proverbial pantsies. i personally loved the film, and still liked the other two even though they were hogwash compared to the first one. matrix reloaded kinda killed the reputation of the first film. but the fight between neo and mr. smith at the very end of matrix revolutions was badass. IMO ehehhe
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  15. #65
    Wolf Woofer will become famous soon enough Woofer will become famous soon enough Woofer's Avatar

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    IWSW there most certainly is a time to throw out titles and, just as the medical professionals are doing in the swine flu thread, this is one of those times for me. I'm sorry if you don't like - or understand - that. However, when someone attempts to educate me on a topic and errs in every aspect - after I have already explained the difference in the first place - then, yes, it's one of those times.

    By the way, you might have noticed that I even tossed out the perennial favorite old lady/young lady perspective picture to illustrate that opinion depends on how you look at something, making The Matrix both an awesome film and nothing special.

    Facts:
    The Matrix stars Keanu Reeves.
    Megatheater47 only sells Pepsi products.
    The Dark Tower is a series of 7 books.

    Opinions:
    No actor could've played Neo as well as Keanu Reeves.
    Coke products taste better than Pepsi products.
    The Dark Tower is a long-winded, self-indulgent personal epic.

    What you (general you) can do, however, when you assert that something is awesome is to supply concrete reasons why you think that way.

    ASSERTION: The Matrix is the best science fiction movie of the last decade of the 20th century. With its unique visualization of a future world and revolutionary special effects, The Matrix set the bar for movies to come.

    SUPPORT: Now there are two facts to expand upon: a unique visualization of the future (provided you don't run across the name of that story we keep thinking about) and the special effects. From this point, you illustrate why you think this way, e.g. other future visions always have the humans alive and awake blah blah blah. Likewise, you point out what effects other films were using at that time and how the techniques employed by the effects team at The Matrix blew all that out of the water.

    BTW, I'm also fairly certain that nobody here told anyone to stfu.

    It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
    A whole lot more than riches and muscle.

    The hands of the many must join as one.
    And together we'll cross the river.

    Puscifer, "The Humbling River"


  16. #66
    Demon of the Prim IWasSentWest is on a distinguished road IWasSentWest's Avatar

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    the throwing around job titles thing was a joke woofer....easy

    Quote Originally Posted by sarajean View Post
    no.



    you telling me that my opinion is wrong is the equivalent of telling me to shut the fuck up, and i just won't do that.



    and thats what i was talking about with the shut the fuck up thing. also a joke. lighten up people, lighten up
    I have many leather bound books.
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  17. #67
    Demon of the Prim IWasSentWest is on a distinguished road IWasSentWest's Avatar

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    and i really dont wanna go through the trouble of doing the whole "assertion" and "support" thing. just takes too damn long....i think i'll stick with the matrix was an awesome movie (also a joke, i think i'll label those from now on, if the thread starts to get a wee bit offensive...........also a joke)

    god im just full of em today
    I have many leather bound books.
    I'm kind of a big deal.


    Changing the plans that I’ve been setting on, I’m scared by the way that my life is getting gone

  18. #68
    Those who cling to life; Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant has a reputation beyond repute Still Servant's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woofer View Post
    jayson and sj are correct.

    While I appreciate your attempt to educate me on how to analyze a film, Still Servant, I am a professional technical writer and a former prof of college literature, composition, and literary analysis. I'm pretty sure that I know the difference between a subjective opinion and objective evidence.

    Woofer, I wasn't trying to educate you on anything. All I did was state MY PHILOSOPHY on film. I wasn't saying that's how everybody in the whole world should evaluate movies. I knew most people would disagree. I didn't think I would get this kind of reaction, and I now regret saying anything.

    With that being said, it seems you're not shy about stating that you're more than qualified to educate us on the subject.

    I guess since I'm a professional videographer who as written a feature length screenplay, I more qualified to debate certain aspects of film.

    Wrong. Of course I'm not.

    I don't care how much smarter you are than me or more educated in this field, there are some things I'm not willing to give you. When my friend comes up to me and says the best film of all time is A Night at the Roxbury, he is wrong.

    I know that's his opinion, but it's wrong. You can throw out ever title you want, you can post your whole resume for all I care, but you will never convince me otherwise. Subjective, objective or any other 'tive you can find. He's wrong.

    Jayson, the Columbus thing is a good point. I'm not a huge fan of Columbus. I'm not sure you can really "discover" a land that already had people on it, but whatever. Also, anybody who has ever been on the ocean can understand why people thought he was crazy. It's just so flat for as far as the eye can see.

    I really didn't mean for this to turn into an argument. Anybody who knows me, knows that's the last thing I like to do. I apologize if I offended anybody.
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  19. #69
    The Tenant Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean has a brilliant future Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woofer View Post
    ASSERTION: The Matrix is the best science fiction movie of the last decade of the 20th century. With its unique visualization of a future world and revolutionary special effects, The Matrix set the bar for movies to come.

    SUPPORT: Now there are two facts to expand upon: a unique visualization of the future (provided you don't run across the name of that story we keep thinking about) and the special effects. From this point, you illustrate why you think this way, e.g. other future visions always have the humans alive and awake blah blah blah. Likewise, you point out what effects other films were using at that time and how the techniques employed by the effects team at The Matrix blew all that out of the water.
    And even in this case there will be petitio principii... it is assumed that the number and quality of special effects has anything to do with a movie being good or bad, which is highly questionable (bears say "questionable" only to sound civil, although they have answered this question to themselves long ago).

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  20. #70
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    My opinion is that majorities are almost always wrong. Remember people popularity has led us to something in life such as Britney Spears. I think this fact alone disproves the myth of majority rules.

    Woofer, Harlan would SUE you for forgetting. And you mentioning his tv reminded me the other day I saw that Aquos now makes a 108" LCD tv. That's damn 9ft. of tv. Does someone have 117,000 I can borrow, please?
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Servant View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Woofer View Post
    jayson and sj are correct.

    While I appreciate your attempt to educate me on how to analyze a film, Still Servant, I am a professional technical writer and a former prof of college literature, composition, and literary analysis. I'm pretty sure that I know the difference between a subjective opinion and objective evidence.

    Woofer, I wasn't trying to educate you on anything. All I did was state MY PHILOSOPHY on film. I wasn't saying that's how everybody in the whole world should evaluate movies. I knew most people would disagree. I didn't think I would get this kind of reaction, and I now regret saying anything.

    With that being said, it seems you're not shy about stating that you're more than qualified to educate us on the subject.

    <snip>

    I really didn't mean for this to turn into an argument. Anybody who knows me, knows that's the last thing I like to do. I apologize if I offended anybody.
    Actually, I wasn't talking about being qualified to educate you or anyone else on film. I am, however, qualified to educate people on literary analysis as well as positing an argument/position/thesis and supporting it with facts.

    I challenge those of you who think I'm a bitch for pointing out my credentials in this thread to rush on over to the Swine Flu Vaccine and serve a ration of shit to all the medical professionals who are establishing their credentials before relating what they know about and/or their opinions on the vaccine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Woofer View Post
    ASSERTION: The Matrix is the best science fiction movie of the last decade of the 20th century. With its unique visualization of a future world and revolutionary special effects, The Matrix set the bar for movies to come.

    SUPPORT: Now there are two facts to expand upon: a unique visualization of the future (provided you don't run across the name of that story we keep thinking about) and the special effects. From this point, you illustrate why you think this way, e.g. other future visions always have the humans alive and awake blah blah blah. Likewise, you point out what effects other films were using at that time and how the techniques employed by the effects team at The Matrix blew all that out of the water.
    And even in this case there will be petitio principii... it is assumed that the number and quality of special effects has anything to do with a movie being good or bad, which is highly questionable (bears say "questionable" only to sound civil, although they have answered this question to themselves long ago).
    Exactly, Jean, exactly. Heck, I don't even believe it, but I could write a damn good paper proving it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    My opinion is that majorities are almost always wrong. Remember people popularity has led us to something in life such as Britney Spears. I think this fact alone disproves the myth of majority rules.

    Woofer, Harlan would SUE you for forgetting. And you mentioning his tv reminded me the other day I saw that Aquos now makes a 108" LCD tv. That's damn 9ft. of tv. Does someone have 117,000 I can borrow, please?
    Yes, Brice! That's very true. ROFL! Harlan probably has two already.



    And now we see why I initially tried to illustrate how two people could see the same thing in two dramatically different ways.

    It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
    A whole lot more than riches and muscle.

    The hands of the many must join as one.
    And together we'll cross the river.

    Puscifer, "The Humbling River"


  22. #72
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    Feev's opinion : The Matrix is a milestone is Sci-Fi movie making, it has had an undeniable effect on sci-fi movies since it's release in 1999.

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    Quote Originally Posted by feverishparade View Post
    Feev's opinion : The Matrix is a milestone is Sci-Fi movie making, it has had an undeniable effect on sci-fi movies since it's release in 1999.
    It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
    A whole lot more than riches and muscle.

    The hands of the many must join as one.
    And together we'll cross the river.

    Puscifer, "The Humbling River"


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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Servant View Post
    No, I'm telling you that the majority can't be wrong.
    See, I think with the Matrix it wasn't the quality of the movie that turned people on as much as the sleek techno-Gothic atmosphere of the Matrix world. It wasn't the script or the acting, nor was it the story. Dark city landscapes, an underground rebel society whose members run around wearing black leather trenches and sunglasses toting sic weaponry, cool action scenes scored with some great techno music...these things made The Matrix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Still Servant View Post
    ...Jayson, the Columbus thing is a good point. I'm not a huge fan of Columbus. I'm not sure you can really "discover" a land that already had people on it, but whatever. Also, anybody who has ever been on the ocean can understand why people thought he was crazy. It's just so flat for as far as the eye can see. ...
    I'm confused by your approach -- you say he has a good point, then you make some rather irrelevant counter-points. So, do you get it, or not? "The majority" may change over time, or may otherwise have varying definitions. Like I often say, there's no such thing as common sense. (The whole tangent, btw, is actually quite apropos; if the majority can't be wrong, then perhaps there really is only The Matrix.)

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