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Thread: Many Different Rolands?

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bev Vincent View Post
    I don't see the horn of Eld as a gift -- I see it as evidence. Evidence that the Roland we see now is an improved version. Roland 2.0 (or 19.0, if you like). His previous self was so focused on the Tower that he couldn't take his eyes from the quest long enough to pick up this value item. Roland 19.0 is better. Less flawed. Not perfect. Not guaranteed to break free from the upward spiral of his existence (not a loop; he starts the journey slightly elevated from his previous position) on this particular journey but he will some day.
    When you say the horn is not a gift, what am I to infer? That God is superfluous?
    If existence is an impersonal mechanism which does nothing but cycle naturally to no purpose, yet Roland, as a human, is able by act of will to improve himself, thus turning it into a spiral, then the same questions remain: Does that spiral have a top? Can he ever reach it? What would he find at that point? Can he ascend all the way to Godhood?

    If Roland on his own gives meaning to his universe, then what is the significance of this fact? Is a spiral that goes nowhere really any different from a loop? If the order of the multiverse which Roland seeks in the Dark Tower is in fact created by the very act of someone like him looking for it, does this imply that objective answers are illusionary? Should he ever reach the point that he is able to decide that in fact he is just chasing the wind, then he could, I guess, break away to freedom, as you say. However, would such freedom be worth having? Isn't that analogous to returning to the chaos of the prim?

    If any of these are the fundamental condition of reality, then is trying to simply get whatever enjoyment the absurdity of nature might provide the best that man can hope for? In that case, I would personally prefer oblivion. (If oblivion were possible.)
    Last edited by pathoftheturtle; 12-17-2009 at 07:56 AM. Reason: top of the page

  2. #27
    shrewd and knavish sprite flaggwalkstheline will become famous soon enough flaggwalkstheline's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bev Vincent View Post
    I don't see the horn of Eld as a gift -- I see it as evidence. Evidence that the Roland we see now is an improved version. Roland 2.0 (or 19.0, if you like). His previous self was so focused on the Tower that he couldn't take his eyes from the quest long enough to pick up this value item. Roland 19.0 is better. Less flawed. Not perfect. Not guaranteed to break free from the upward spiral of his existence (not a loop; he starts the journey slightly elevated from his previous position) on this particular journey but he will some day.
    When you say the horn is not a gift, what am I to infer? That God is superfluous?
    If existence is an impersonal mechanism which does nothing but cycle naturally to no purpose, yet Roland, as a human, is able by act of will to improve himself, thus turning it into a spiral, then the same questions remain: Does that spiral have a top? Can he ever reach it? What would he find at that point? Can he ascend all the way to Godhood?

    If Roland on his own gives meaning to his universe, then what is the significance of this fact? Is a spiral that goes nowhere really any different from a loop? If the order of the multiverse which Roland seeks in the Dark Tower is in fact created by the very act of someone like him looking for it, does this imply that objective answers are illusionary? Should he ever reach the point that he is able to decide that in fact he is just chasing the wind, then he could, I guess, break away to freedom, as you say. However, would such freedom be worth having? Isn't that analogous to returning to the chaos of the prim?

    If any of these are the fundamental condition of reality, then is trying to simply get whatever enjoyment the absurdity of nature might provide the best that man can hope for? In that case, I would personally prefer oblivion. (If oblivion were possible.)
    question:
    does anybody else wonder if Sai King planned on invoking contemplation of such heavy philosophy when he wrote the ending?
    if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do

  3. #28
    Word Slinger Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent's Avatar

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    Oh, I know he did -- I've discussed it with him briefly.

  4. #29
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    Anyway, I think that it would be just as presumptuous to conclude that progress is impossible as it would be to conclude the opposite. I still like the idea that the cycle may unite many Rolands.

  5. #30
    Public enemy number 1 Sickrose is on a distinguished road Sickrose's Avatar

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    I have always thought it was the same Roland but that the world isn't ready for the Dark Tower not that Roland needs to change or become a better person. He is flawed but so is everyone and not everyone ends up on a cycle or a spiral.

    Because the world isn't ready the tower protects itself by sending Roland back to the dessert.

    Perhaps the horn is less of a symbol of Roland changing but some object needed at the Dark Tower because it is from the line of Eld. Perhaps on his next journey Jake will end up actually being Roland's son as opposed to Mordered and the line of eld continues.

    I think I have gone off topic a bit but I think it's the same Roland. I can't remember who says it but someone says, to a memeber of the Tet, that Roland means to reach the tower not necessarily to save it. However, in his journey he does for example at algul siento.

  6. #31
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    It was Mia who said that no one could save the Tower, and Roland just wanted to see it.
    I, too, agree with those who say that Roland needs to improve himself; I just don't think that giving up is an improvement. TDT is about Roland's quest, and his personal character is only one part of it. This thread is a philosophical debate about the nature of reality, which is mainly fitting just because The Dark Tower is itself philosophical fiction about the nature of reality.
    However, I don't see why you're saying that "it is the same Roland." The point is not to say that he doesn't go on, but to ask how it works. You know Zeno's Arrow?
    Still, your assertion that that "the world isn't ready for the Dark Tower" is intriguing. Are you referring mostly to Mid-World, or to the readers who followed Roland?

  7. #32
    Public enemy number 1 Sickrose is on a distinguished road Sickrose's Avatar

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    I see well, I figured, it was whether it is the Roland roland or different versions of him in different realities.

    Roland is flawed but who is judging him? Who will decide when he is improved enought and then allow him to move on or leave the sprial/cycle?

    Regading the world not being ready - i mean all worlds. I see that they are all headed, in some way, to the ways of the old People who had the disastourous wars and meddled with majic.

    Despite Roland saving the beam and setting up the Tet corporation they will still be threats to the DArk Tower. There needs to be a paradigm shift in progress to allow people to live side by side with majic or the unknowable. When this happens there will be no meddling with the beams or anything like this and the tower will stand unaided.

    When this can happen there is no need for Roland and he can go on. It just seems hash his improvement is at such a premium when he isnt the only flawed character.

    Help this explains what i meant.

    That said you asking me whether it might be the readers who follow roland is interesting. I hadnt meant that but it's an intriguing idea.

    Sorry for misinterpreting the thread

  8. #33
    Gunslinger Apprentice lowdown is on a distinguished road lowdown's Avatar

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    he is like Eddie was ......a fiend,, worse even ...casue there is no methadone for him its seems through our cycle he is improving or doing better....whatever.....however the way it happens he better see the upper room .....and be at peace...if not then fuck Stephen king ....he made me love roland.....he has killed a lot of good characters but not Roland ......why because ...he's got to be different

    I'm nonviolent with those who are nonviolent with me. But when you drop that violence on me, then you've made me go INSANE, and I'm not responsible for what I do

    Malcolm X

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowdown View Post
    he is like Eddie was ......a fiend,, worse even ...casue there is no methadone for him its seems through our cycle he is improving or doing better....whatever.....however the way it happens he better see the upper room .....and be at peace...if not then fuck Stephen king ....he made me love roland.....he has killed a lot of good characters but not Roland ......why because ...he's got to be different
    or perhaps because Roland hasn't earned his death yet.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickrose View Post
    ...Roland is flawed but who is judging him? Who will decide when he is improved enought and then allow him to move on or leave the sprial/cycle? ...It just seems hash his improvement is at such a premium when he isnt the only flawed character. ...
    This is why some people have a fear of success. It's like the harder you try, the more is expected from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sickrose View Post
    ...There needs to be a paradigm shift in progress to allow people to live side by side with majic or the unknowable. ...
    Wow, all I can say is: True!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sickrose View Post
    ...Sorry for misinterpreting the thread
    Ah, no need to apologize. I didn't mean to put you down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sickrose View Post
    I see well, I figured, it was whether it is the Roland roland or different versions of him in different realities....
    Why is it so important to differentiate like that? If the Roland we see is different versions of him in different realities, then does that necessarily mean that he is not Roland? Can any version of him be him in a greater way than other versions of him are him? If so, what way is that, exactly? If there are versions of him that are less him, what does that mean?

  11. #36
    Public enemy number 1 Sickrose is on a distinguished road Sickrose's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickrose View Post
    ...There needs to be a paradigm shift in progress to allow people to live side by side with majic or the unknowable. ...
    Wow, all I can say is: True!
    Thanks

    Ah, no need to apologize. I didn't mean to put you down.
    No probs

    Quote Originally Posted by Sickrose View Post
    I see well, I figured, it was whether it is the Roland roland or different versions of him in different realities....
    Why is it so important to differentiate like that? If the Roland we see is different versions of him in different realities, then does that necessarily mean that he is not Roland? Can any version of him be him in a greater way than other versions of him are him? If so, what way is that, exactly? If there are versions of him that are less him, what does that mean?
    This is an interesting point - I figured if there were different Rolands in different realities they are not the same but I see your point I guess there can't be a master Roland in a sene with the others being copies hmmm

  12. #37
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    What happens to the past once it is no longer present?

    If the horn is evidence that Roland 19.0 is better than Roland 18.0 was in the desert, does that guarantee that he'll end up being even better still by the time he reaches the Tower again, or could Roland, even a better Roland, backslide? If he somehow gets worse, then would Gan just send him back without the horn, hoping that Roland 20.0 will get back up to at least that previous level... or would it help if Gan skipped back and gave Roland 19.0 another chance, instead?

    If Gan did do that, would that mean that Roland 20.0 passes away? If only Roland 20.0 continues, however, doesn't that mean that Roland 19.0 has already passed away? Every one of us has left different versions of ourselves in the past. What happens to them once they are no longer present?

    Is time absolutely linear, or can it be travelled? If it can, how would that affect the concept of free will?

  13. #38
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    free will doesn't negate or interfere with a definite outcome.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sickrose View Post
    There needs to be a paradigm shift in progress to allow people to live side by side with majic or the unknowable.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  15. #40
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    free will doesn't negate or interfere with a definite outcome.
    That's a highly interesting assertion. Not clear exactly how it address my post... but then, I mostly was only starting to suggest how complex the issues are. I'll have to give all this more thought. One thing now, tho; time travel does seem like it would interfere with a definite outcome. Unless there were something like the Dark Tower, that is.

  16. #41
    Army of the 12 Monkeys pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle is a glorious beacon of light pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    There's an editing stage in creating works of fiction. Segments of film may be cut or joined together to give the illusion of progress in a character's "life." This is guided by the script, or in the writer's case, by his vision of truth. In reality, however, there is nothing behind the scenes of living people. Or is there? What separates reality and fiction? Can a fictional character have, at any level, self-determination comparable to that which we perceive about ourselves?

    TDT explores these questions alongside of issues raised by paradoxes of Quantum Physics. According to the Alternate Universe theory, when someone goes right at a crossroads, there is also a world in which he goes left. Yet, if this is the nature of existence, why is it that we are not conscious of our other selves? Is the world I know just subjective perception? Do I change things at all when I choose to go right, objectively, or do I only get to choose which part I will believe to have happened, which part of the multiverse I will know to exist? Under such cosmology, one would need to feel no qualm about seeking self-gratification, when one knows that someone else who suffers as a result has his own universe in which one has allowed that other to be on top.

    Would such a "plan of nature" be good, from a human perspective? Is there any Higher Power able to ordain it otherwise? What is life, really?

  17. #42
    Gunslinger Apprentice RolandLover will become famous soon enough

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    I know I'm late but I agree with Letti about the not believing The Tower needs to be saved. Throughout the quest Roland has been asked or told to give up his quest. Also, Roland wasn't determined to save the Tower until he traveled in the Pink Grapefruit. It wasn't until that he made the DT his sole mission. I honestly believe his soul got sucked into that glam and he has never let it go. Like it still has a hold on him. I believe Roland did change in DT, he loved again his new ka tet, and learning other things but mainly learning to cry off this quest that has cost him so much.

  18. #43
    Along the Path of the Beam SpyGuy will become famous soon enough SpyGuy's Avatar

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    Something else to consider in all this:

    We all know how things ended up for Roland
    Spoiler:
    being sent back along the loop

    BUT .... if he is technically the same man that we've seen throughout our travels, does he also come back with both of his guns, or just one? (Remember, Susannah took one with her through a doorway, while the other was used to actually enter the Tower.) For that matter, how many FINGERS does this illiteration of Roland have? Was he magically healed and given his guns back this time around, as well as receiving the Horn of Eld?

    >>>{game show announcer voice}<<< "Oh, we're so terribly sorry that you were sent back to the beginning, sir, but as a consolation prize, we're going to give you back your fingers and your guns! And, as a special bonus for showing that you do have a heart under that rough exterior, we're also going to reward you with ... this magnificent old bugle!"

    (>>{off-mic whispering}<< "What? What was that? It's NOT a bugle?? You morons, I just ... I'll deal with this later")

    "AHEM .... And as a special bonus, we're also going to reward you with this magnificent old HORN!!"

    >>{cue canned audience applause track}<<
    Last edited by SpyGuy; 07-11-2017 at 03:14 PM. Reason: Wanted to make it funnier but still kinda serious

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