Roland: Saved or Damned?

[Jean]

what gives him the right, over every creature in existence, to enter that which is sacred? that which holds the bonds of the universe together? that which allows worlds to keep spinning and lives to keep unfolding and stars to stay in the sky?

The mere fact that he came there. That's what I've always thought. Rights are not granted: they are taken. You have the right - especially when the higher things are concerned - simply because you dare. The Tower is there for anyone who can get to it - and what is inside confirms me in that opinion. Moreover, I think the Tower is there because someone constantly walks towards it, and takes - by force - his right of entering. The whole existence is there because someone is risking his own soul (not only life); saving his soul is the antithesis, they are contradictory but ultimately one is impossible without the other.

Maiorem hac dilectionem nemo habet ut animam suam quis ponat pro amicis suis.

[Brainslinger]

That Latin had me intrigued...

"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lays down his life for his friends."

(I don't speak Latin. I looked it up.) An important lesson Roland learnt I think. Particularly in that last scene with Jake.

Here's something else that applies to Roland and constant looping for the tower. I read it in a book recently, it's Anglo Saxon:

Wyrd bid ful araed.

[Letti]

Day by day I feel it stronger that it was his Tower. At that moment when he was standing there it was only his. He didn't own it... but at that very moment they belonged to each other so Roland had to enter. There he had no choice.
I understand you turtle but we can't think of Roland at the same way because we think about the Tower very differently - moreover I feel that my opinion is changing all the time.
Anyway I do agree: he didn't grow enough. But I believe he will.

[Jean]

His tower. Absolutely. Would have been yours if it had been you who walked there and stood in that field of roses.

I didn't use Latin only because I wanted to show off - anima is not exactly the "life" of the English translation

[Kingfanatic260]

I know if it were me I wouldn't have been able to turn back having made the journey that far. But I agree as the series went along Roland became a better person and easier to like. I didn't like Roland very much when he let Jake fall in the Gunslinger.

[Wuducynn]

I know if it were me I wouldn't have been able to turn back having made the journey that far.

I think the reason he can't turn back is that he still hasn't progressed in his mind to the point where he realizes that to really finish his quest is to know that reaching the Tower above all else is what is keeping him stuck in his loop.

But I agree as the series went along Roland became a better person and easier to like. I didn't like Roland very much when he let Jake fall in the Gunslinger.

You and most other folk. He has definitely progressed to where he realizes that there are more things than the Tower that are important to him as evidenced in his willingness to sacrifice himself for Jake during King's accident. That's why he now has the Horn of Eld as a symbol of that very important progression.

[Pere Callahan]

but he still entered the tower didn't he? was he even supposed to go into the tower? how can a mere mortal enter the center of all existence? wasn't he just supposed to go and lay the items at it's foot? isn't it pure roland-ness to presume that he is fit to climb its stairs and see what lies at the top?

what gives him the right, over every creature in existence, to enter that which is sacred? that which holds the bonds of the universe together? that which allows worlds to keep spinning and lives to keep unfolding and stars to stay in the sky?

i know i'm not making much sense but while i do think he grew slightly during the journey, i don't think he grew enough. i think it's his arrogance that allowed him to think he could enter the tower in the first place, and that is and will continue to be his downfall - his arrogance. and so long as he thinks he can enter the tower, and actually does enter the tower, he will continue to fail.

Amen, turtlesong. I'm with you 100%. Roland's pride is his problem.

[Brainslinger]

I didn't use Latin only because I wanted to show off - anima is not exactly the "life" of the English translation

It's ok, I wasn't accusing you.

Oh, and "Wyrd bid ful araed." roughly translates "Destiny is inexorable." (I suppose I was showing off a bit.) The definition of 'wyrd' though I found fascinating. It's a word we still use, 'weird' but had a different meaning then: destiny. And not just destiny but it refers to the interconnectedness of things. Sounds like ka to me.

The modern meaning of the word isn't out of place either though considering Roland's loop and everything. It's Roland's wyrd to experience weirdness. And ever weirder, each time, he doesn't know just how much. At least he's progressing.

[Merlin1958]

Roland and the Tower are one and the same. At least he is a representation of the inconsistency's and faults of the Tower (hence the world (s)) and represents our/his ability to correct them and hopefully make things perfect or at least better in the world (s). When and if he/all finally get it right Roland will once again become one with the tower. Until then he keeps looping and bearing the burden of all.

I don't know if I got that as right as it seems in my head but what the hell. In support of my hypotheis, when roland enters the tower (in which each level represents an alternate universe or level) he sees every aspect and event in his life which, I think is an allegory for all of exisistence on every level or universe. Anyway, just my three beans lol

[Silvermoth]

My interpretation is that the Tower was saved. We know after Roland's ka-tet saves the Bear and Turtle beams, all the other beams started to rework themselves back into existence. So the the thing on the top floor of the Tower didn't care if Roland got there or not.

[RiseofDespair]

I think that he still has some loops to go, because he still has chances to mess up later in his quest... perhaps he can't let Jake fall the first time to be saved, or he can't let his ka-tet be broken, and they just have to wait for him outside the Tower.

[Doc_Gamecock]

Since he originates at the very beginning of the series again, I'd say he's stuck in the loop. It's his choices that bring him to the tower and hence bring him back to the beginning of the story. Will Roland change his ways and make different choices and find out that friendship is more important than personal gain, which seems to be the theme? Probably not, all we know about Roland is that he is consistent and strong-willed with a determined mind to achieve one goal, the Tower.
Maybe that is what Roland wants, his eternity always searching and achieving his life's goal, the Tower. He devoted his life to it and has always felt connected to it and by playing out the sequence for eternity could be bliss. Be careful what you wish for though.

Is this what makes Roland so special though? Everyone else finds someone else to love and believe in and all that Roland loves and believes in, is the tower?
Why is Roland chosen to be the focus of Ka?

[Sam]

I think Roland will be saved but still has some more loops to make. This comes mostly from the statement at the end about how the wheels in his minds turn slowly, but they grind extremely fine.

[Doc_Gamecock]

So apparently there's a lot of emphasis put on this horn business. Could it simply be that he steps through the tower and has learned all that he needs to from this cycle - since this is the story we are told, it could signify the most important and hence the turning point where he will only repeat it one last time - and we start reading where he is in the desert again. BUT his life history has already been lived or rewritten and he chose that time to pick up the horn instead of leaving it there?

[Sam]

Has anyone considered that this may be the nineteenth time Roland has been through this? My idea is that he may be making many, many more trips like this. Maybe nineteen groups of nineteen loops. That's a LOT of repeats, but plenty of time for Roland to learn whatever he has to learn to break the cycle.

Or maybe this wasn't the nineteenth loop. We all know 19 is THE magic number not 13. Who knows, but it is a good question. I think the horn is just King's way of telling us that Roland has hope and WILL finish his quest for good one day, but he also says in his own way that Roland still has a way to go before he's done. The Tower is almost like Roland's own Bardo.

[Doc_Gamecock]

Oh no, I'm in favor of the view that it was the 19th time and there may be 19 loops or whatever. Since 19 is the number, I figure it might have been the significant time that something happened and he'll end it. Everyone else seems to revolve around the horn and think it's a major deal.
I'm not too sure how something mentioned simply once in the entire series can have such a huge impact. I don't think the horn is that big of deal.

[pathoftheturtle]

1. Rolands quest wasn't to save the Tower, but climb to the top. Saving the tower was just a requirement to fulfill his quest. they say that in one of the books. i think six.
2. the tower is lonely and very very bored.

However, climbing to the top was also just a means to an end: his real quest was to see whether what is up there is a bumhug or not.

...the thing on the top floor of the Tower didn't care if Roland got there or not.

Sounds like a pretty heartless thing. If the Tower was NOT really in danger, then why wouldn’t Gan just say, “No, thanks.” instead of tossing the man aside?

My interpretation is that the Tower was saved. We know after Roland's ka-tet saves the Bear and Turtle beams, all the other beams started to rework themselves back into existence. ...

Even if we do accept that claim, there are still some problems with the conclusion that the Tower was saved. At some point in the future, the Beams might be attacked again. I figure that if he did reach the top, one of Roland’s first questions would be “How could You have allowed this to happen, and is there any way to prevent further mass destruction?”

I think that the question of “If it was really in danger why wouldn't it just let him help?” is a valid one. If time itself is cycling, then none of his past efforts would seem to matter, at all. It would mean that the Tower is always secure and the only real progress that the gunslinger is making is internal. We could conclude further that thinnies are basically natural, and that every invasion of supernatural beings ever seen in SK’s worlds was simply meant to be. Is all peril an illusion?

There are no real answers in the books, but neither does the series truly imply that Gan is just a fraud. To really understand would be literally a whole other story. To me, though, that’s fine, and it really proves nothing more than that whatever God is, Stephen King is not Him.

We can only speculate. I imagine that the timeline which Roland enters next existed already. He is destined to save another version of the Dark Tower on another level of the multiverse, as part of an ongoing struggle against oblivion.
This would mean that at the same time that Gan is forcing him to grow personally, Roland is helping the Tower to function, and improving conditions everywhere.

[Remington]

Roland is out to save the tower, the breakers are the ones trying to tear the tower down...

pathoftheturtle "Please do. What a tantalizing comment. Are you speaking of the persistence of magic? (I think I'm going to have to look up all the quotes I can find about the magic leaving the world and the history of the Tower...)"

Did you happen to read the talisman and black house? Theres plenty of magic there and these stories happen while roland is on his quest AFTER he makes 3 gunslingers

[pathoftheturtle]

Roland is out to save the tower, the breakers are the ones trying to tear the tower down...

Yes, but a deeper question is why. Some people think that Roland's goals are really not much better than Walter's.

Did you happen to read the talisman and black house?

Sure, I've read most of King's books. It is interesting to think how the Territories from The Talisman might relate to what we're told about the Prim, and the Tower, and "the world moving on."

I'm still hoping to hear more from Letti on this topic, but it would really be great if some answers appeared in a Talisman 3 book. I've been dreaming of the day that they write one, for quite a while.

[Matt]

I am in the camp that says the Tower was/is already saved. Sending Roland there was it's way of using him. Not for a bad thing, but for his own personal salvation.

I also believe the Tower exists physically for Roland only at the point he makes it there.

I have always believed the only real way to "save" The Dark Tower is to cry off the quest because each time he goes (if the theories are to be believed)--he only puts it in danger again.

[pathoftheturtle]

Well, I’m confused.
If it is true that…

...he never really made it to the actual nexus, the Tower he found was himself ...

… then it’s only himself that is endangered. True?

To me, crying off from the Tower = ignorance, but I don’t know, really. I can see the other side, too; I think that SK, deliberately or otherwise, set up in TDT a tale of an irresistible force encountering an immovable object. Roland’s quest represents mankind’s drive to improve his world, and the responsibility to be objective, while the Dark Tower represents nature’s transcendent balance, and God’s demand for faith.

It’s all about authority and authoritarianism. Are we as a society ready for the concept of democracy in heaven? It does seem reasonable to me that God may not need to be accountable, but that can’t be just from mere defense of His ego.

If King meant to imply that what Roland should do is to just try to take life one day at a time, because the main idea is that nothing really matters more than fellowship, then the question on this thread can turn to why Gan doesn’t openly set him an example of that, instead of forcefully removing him from the rest of his days. Indeed, the facts of deprivation and death belie the very notion: how can we accept the loss of our fellows without delving into issues of higher purpose?

I do think that being self-absorbed is a real pet peeve of this author, but, certainly, hypocrisy is another. Gan keeping mum for Roland's own good is an equally likely explanation, and one that would be every bit as just, IMO, as doing it for the sake of a wider mission. However, it is still somewhat unclear to me just what the most genuinely unselfish path for Roland would be.

[Billy-Bumbler]

It seems to me that it is implied that the tower sent him back for the horn at least that one time, right? Maybe the Tower needs the sigils of Eld for something and is using Roland as its messenger-boy

[alientude]

Just finished reading the series for the first time. My thoughts:

Much the way King portrayed himself as a tunnel from Gan, I think Roland is a conduit for the Tower. Without him seeking it, it won't exist, and hence the universe and all the worlds will vanish.

[Matt]

Roland’s quest represents mankind’s drive to improve his world, and the responsibility to be objective, while the Dark Tower represents nature’s transcendent balance, and God’s demand for faith.

I love that Path, very cool observation.

[cozener]

I never saw the Tower as the culprit. Roland is damned. I don't believe in damnation but I think Stephen King does. Since no one can really conceive of eternal damnation it makes sense that, if it did exist, it would be something repetitive. In Roland's case, the repetition of a long hard life filled with physical pain and discomfort, fear, frustration, and devastating loss at the end of which, just when he had his hands on the prize that might make it alright, that would have it all make sense; he experiences the cold, abrupt terror...like being ripped from a warm and soft slumber then plunged in over your head into a black and icy pool of horror; the realisation that he must do it all again and again.

Anyway...just wanted to spread a little Christmas cheer.