Roland: Saved or Damned?

[Matt]

Maybe the only way for Roland to change "what happened" with Susan is to stop blaming himself.

It has always been my position that weather it was his fault or not is moot because he clearly blames himself. Perception is reality in a lot of cases.

So changing that may just mean changing how he thinks about it which can be a very powerful thing.

[Darkthoughts]

Matt, you should have been a guidance councillor

Seriously, I think thats a very good point. Susan's death never seemed like Roland's fault to me.

[Rider_of_Discordia]

Roland mispelling. I am actually dyslexic, and everything I type is run through a spell checker. Unfortunately it reads Rowland/Roland as both correct spellings and since I read things by sound rather than spelling ... I can get pretty funky sometimes. I will try and stop it ... sorry! I do put words back to back or back to front sometimes as well, but WORD for windows usually underlines in green those things as "Not making an ounce of sense" ...

[Letti]

Oh nevermind, R_o_D - we are so much interested in you what we don't give a damn about your spelling. Really don't worry about it.

[Tiffany]

I've been thinking about the symbolizm of the horn alot too lately.

It does seem to presage the dawning of a new era - a blast of a horn is usually to herald a beginning or an end - therefore, we could interpret Roland sounding the horn at the Tower in the final loop as the end of his quest, and perhaps the dawning of a new age for...Mid World...all worlds...mankind?

Oh I like this.

I voted Saved, this next loop is the last.

It doesn't really seem to me that it's a black and white ending. I like how it's left open for everyone to interpret however they'd like. For me, it's going to be the last loops because I guess I just want it to be. There's no better explanation. I want to see him climb to the top and not have to go through the journey again.

[Rider_of_Discordia]

Thanks Letti, I can stop hitting myself in the forehead now!

Tiffany: I agree with your idea. Its the last loop because I want it to be ... perfect logic.

Heck, I think I paid good money for these books, I think I have an investment in how it works out. Roland is saved because I want it... that is going to my take on it.

[ManOfWesternesse]

Thanks Letti, I can stop hitting myself in the forehead now!...

- Was just wondering R_o_D, like I said - no big deal.
My own typing has gone to the dogs of late - about 99% of the time 'for' comes out 'fro', and words ending in 'e' have the 'e' lopped off and added to the start of the next word. (as in 'th elazy dog'). It's very damn frustrating having to scan every sentence after I type it. I think I'm just trying to go too fast for my 2.5 fingered ability!

[KaLikeAWheel]

I think the horn is insignificant, and here's why:

I think everything cycles back because ka is circular. King likened ka to many things, but by book VII he was mostly saying that ka was like a wheel, which to me was just forshadowing of how the story would end. Also, as King points out right before Roland enters the tower, the important part of the story is the journey, not the end. Therefore, I don't think salvation or damnation is the point. I think the point is the story, and if Roland were "saved," the story would end. ...I know I'm explaining this badly, but I've been at work for 13 hours and have three to go, so be kind.

Donna

[Darkthoughts]

I sort of follow you, and I know in another thread there is a discussion where quite a few posters share similar views...Ryan probably knows...

[MonteGss]

I think the horn is insignificant, and here's why:

I think everything cycles back because ka is circular. King likened ka to many things, but by book VII he was mostly saying that ka was like a wheel, which to me was just forshadowing of how the story would end. Also, as King points out right before Roland enters the tower, the important part of the story is the journey, not the end. Therefore, I don't think salvation or damnation is the point. I think the point is the story, and if Roland were "saved," the story would end. ...I know I'm explaining this badly, but I've been at work for 13 hours and have three to go, so be kind.

Donna

Yes, this has been talked about in many other threads before. If I remember correctly, it is essentially what R_of_G* believes.



*Sorry dude, if I'm summarizing your beliefs. I know they can be more complex than this.

[jayson]

Yes, this has been talked about in many other threads before. If I remember correctly, it is essentially what R_of_G* believes.



*Sorry dude, if I'm summarizing your beliefs. I know they can be more complex than this.

No apology necessary. You are, more or less, on target. While I don't find the horn to be insignificant, I do agree with the point that Roland's cycling will not end. For a lengthier answer to why I believe that, one will have to locate the previous threads on the topic.

Incidentally, I have never voted in the poll in this thread bc the choice of looping forever is described as "Damned" and while I do feel he will loop endlessly, I do not tie this to the concept of damnation.

[MonteGss]

...I do not tie this to the concept of damnation.

I pretty much agree with you here.



My personal opinions on the horn, the loop and the general ending change constantly. That is why I like this story so much, there is no right answer.

[jayson]

...That is why I like this story so much, there is no right answer.

Agreed 100%

[Tiffany]

I third that opinion.

It's a "Lady or the Tiger" ending and I love those where you're allowed to pick whichever ending you want and it can be right either way.

[Letti]

...That is why I like this story so much, there is no right answer.

Agreed 100%

Couldn't agree more.
And we must admint there is no wrong answer either.

[The Lady of Shadows]

it's interesting to me, however, how many people think this next loop is his final one. i wonder why that is. is it just because of the horn? is it something else? or is it just wishful thinking? i'd love to hear an answer. maybe i'll post a companion poll - just for those people who voted the next loop is the last before final salvation. cause that answer is truly fascinating to me.

[Letti]

it's interesting to me, however, how many people think this next loop is his final one. i wonder why that is. is it just because of the horn? is it something else? or is it just wishful thinking? i'd love to hear an answer. maybe i'll post a companion poll - just for those people who voted the next loop is the last before final salvation. cause that answer is truly fascinating to me.

If you ask me your questions hit the nail right on the head and they contain the answers.

[The Lady of Shadows]

letti - so it's all three? it's the horn, wishful thinking and something else? that's why he's going to be saved after this final loop? i don't understand that at all. is that what you think?

[Letti]

No, for my part I do not think the next loop is the last one at all but I feel some people think that
- because of the horn
or
- because that's what they want to believe
or maybe both or something else.

[Jean]

I personally am not inclined to attach too big importance to siguls - I've already explained, in another thread, what the only significance of the horn for me is - but I definitely voted for that option, because I don't see what more could be expected of Roland. In my eyes, he fully qualifies for salvation.

[The Lady of Shadows]

No, for my part I do not think the next loop is the last one at all but I feel some people think that
- because of the horn
or
- because that's what they want to believe
or maybe both or something else.

i see what you're saying now. thanks.

I personally am not inclined to attach too big importance to siguls - I've already explained, in another thread, what the only significance of the horn for me is - but I definitely voted for that option, because I don't see what more could be expected of Roland. In my eyes, he fully qualifies for salvation.

so, if i understand you correctly, you're saying this next loop will be his last because he has done what he needed to do. not because of the horn or anything else. so what post can i read of yours that says what he did that changed things for him this time? if you don't mind me asking?

[obscurejude]

In the poem, the horn seems to represent a realization of Roland's existence which is meaninglessness- the existential crisis of all created beings. In other words, the Tower is a cosmological symbol that Roland can only recognize once he accepts that he is part of the natural world in which the Tower is set, "Burningly, it came upon me at once" The last thing that Roland does is pick up the horn and blow, which is heroic in my opinion, but not necessarily salvific. To exist is to be damned.

[jayson]

In the poem, the horn seems to represent a realization of Roland's existence which is meaninglessness- the existential crisis of all created beings. In other words, the Tower is a cosmological symbol that Roland can only recognize once he accepts that he is part of the natural world in which the Tower is set, "Burningly, it came upon me at once" The last thing that Roland does is pick up the horn and blow, which is heroic in my opinion, but not necessarily salvific. To exist is to be damned.

Excellent post Ryan, but I would like to add that while to exist is to be damned, perhaps realization of that is salvation.

[KaLikeAWheel]

For a lengthier answer to why I believe that, one will have to locate the previous threads on the topic.

Incidentally, I have never voted in the poll in this thread bc the choice of looping forever is described as "Damned" and while I do feel he will loop endlessly, I do not tie this to the concept of damnation.

When I'm at work on a connection that isn't dial-up, I'll have to look that thread up! I'm interested in hearing the whole answer.

Also, I agree. It seems to me Roland had some of the happiest (or at least most content) days of his life with Jake, Eddie, Susannah and Oy, so how could it be damnation?

Donna

[Jean]

Incidentally, I have never voted in the poll in this thread bc the choice of looping forever is described as "Damned" and while I do feel he will loop endlessly, I do not tie this to the concept of damnation.

it's because I am the author of the options

I can add another option (like, "Other")