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Thread: Black 13 and it's "final" location

  1. #26
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daghain View Post
    I actually thought it was really clever of King to leave Black Thirteen in the Twin Towers. I took it to mean they would be destroyed when the towers came down.
    So did, as far as thinking it clever of King. But I've got to wonder if the idea was that Black 13 would be destroyed or that Black 13's presence under the Twin Towers would cause 9-11...or both?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    I wonder the same thing CK and for that reason I didn't really appreciate it. It is definitely presented like a very pronounced statement, yet no one can pick up what King is laying down- at least in this regard.

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    I wonder the same thing CK and for that reason I didn't really appreciate it. It is definitely presented like a very pronounced statement, yet no one can pick up what King is laying down- at least in this regard.
    Why can't you appreciate it? Its a mystery, one of many in the series. Just something to wonder about.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    I don't like things that are presented heavily with no defined action in mind. That's my philosophy of literature- but that's not to say that I don't appreciate it at all. Its like the Matrix sequels- they are presented in a way which makes you think everything is cryptic, but understandable if you expend the effort. However, that isn't the case, and I don't appreciate expending the effort when the end result is just greater confusion. I'm not saying this is the case with the DT generally, but in this case, I think it might be. Notice the first person pronouns- I am not speaking definitively.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    So you don't appreciate anything that doesn't have an immediate, presentable reason behind it happening or possibly happening? The Dark Tower series must be rough for you to read.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Damnit CK, you know that isn't necessarily the case. But you also know from my other posts that I get a little frustrated. I was also using "action" in the Aristotelian sense i.e. praxis - a defined moral impression.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Okey dokey
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Damnit CK, you know that isn't necessarily the case. But you also know from my other posts that I get a little frustrated. I was also using "action" in the Aristotelian sense i.e. praxis - a defined moral impression.
    You didn't knock your monitor off the desk while you were making this post, I hope?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  9. #34
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    So, what comes first, the poster or Black 13? I'm going to be thinking about this all day. I got the feeling that the posters were very old, and people witnessed 9/11 quite a few times. Another question, how could events in the Keystone world be witnessed before they transpired- with the whole "time only moves forward" thing.
    Some of this stuff deals with the last book, so I'll spoiler tag it...-

    Spoiler:
    Even if we assume that the characters are right in their belief that time only goes forward in the Keystone world, that doesn't mean that the great old ones could not witness the events of 9/11.

    Why?

    Well, why should we assume the events of 9/11 only happened in the Keystone world? Remember there are many worlds, very close together with very little differences between them. The Dixie pig entrance that Jake and Susannah traveled through was in the Keystone world, it's true, but if I remember correctly there was a whole complex of tunnels and doors in the dogan the other side, and I don't think they all connected to Keystone world. In fact, I imagine the majority of them probably didn't.


    Back to the topic, I don't think Black 13 caused the 9/11 events. It was ka's way of ensuring it was destroyed though. Even if we go consider the idea that Black 13 influenced the minds of the terrorists (something that makes me uneasy, those scum were responsible for their own actions),

    a) I'm not sure Black 13 would want to cause it's own destruction... unless it's a suggestion that it was setting itself free? Sure you could argue, it's chaotic and evil and that is by nature self-destructive, especially if it got to cause more deaths and chaos in it's destruction... but I'm not convinced. I think the nature of the Wizard's Rainbow is to survive and roll to new people to influence in turn.

    b) When you consider that the terrorist attacks were likely planned miles away and well in advance, I think it would be beyond Black 13s influence anyway. Much of the story seemed to suggest that Black 13 needs to be in a relatively close proximity to influence a person.

    The team were a few miles from The Callas when it rolled the ka-tet todash (I'm assuming it's ok to leave the spoilers tags out here, since you should have read Wolves before coming to this book anyway.) and in the instances it affected people directly (like Eddie in the cave and Jake and Callahan in this book) they were right in the same room when they were affected.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post

    Back to the topic, I don't think Black 13 caused the 9/11 events. It was ka's way of ensuring it was destroyed though. Even if we go consider the idea that Black 13 influenced the minds of the terrorists (something that makes me uneasy, those scum were responsible for their own actions),

    a) I'm not sure Black 13 would want to cause it's own destruction... unless it's a suggestion that it was setting itself free? Sure you could argue, it's chaotic and evil and that is by nature self-destructive, especially if it got to cause more deaths and chaos in it's destruction... but I'm not convinced. I think the nature of the Wizard's Rainbow is to survive and roll to new people to influence in turn.

    b) When you consider that the terrorist attacks were likely planned miles away and well in advance, I think it would be beyond Black 13s influence anyway. Much of the story seemed to suggest that Black 13 needs to be in a relatively close proximity to influence a person.

    The team were a few miles from The Callas when it rolled the ka-tet todash (I'm assuming it's ok to leave the spoilers tags out here, since you should have read Wolves before coming to this book anyway.) and in the instances it affected people directly (like Eddie in the cave and Jake and Callahan in this book) they were right in the same room when they were affected.
    I'm with ya Brainster. I don't think Black Thirteen tried to influence the terrorists into killing it. Doesn't make sense. I don't agree that the terrorists would be beyond its influence though.
    In Wolves and SOS I didn't see anything saying that you HAD to be in some proximity to Black Thirteen for it to effect you. Anyway, thats really neither here nor there as the saying goes.
    Maybe it knew it couldn't be destroyed by the Towers falling and it drawing the terrorists to the Towers was a way to wreak havoc and to have it go into hiding until it wants to be found again?
    As far as the terrorists making their own choices, I don't think Black Thirteen influencing them cancels that fact out. Remember, Black Thirteen is known to use folks best intentions to get what it wants and the terrorists obviously thought they were doing good.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Maybe it knew it couldn't be destroyed by the Towers falling and it drawing the terrorists to the Towers was a way to wreak havoc and to have it go into hiding until it wants to be found again?
    Possibly. I don't really buy it though, it just seems to me that it was set up by King/ka to be the destruction of the glass... although I agree the relevant passages (not in front of me right now) could be interpreted differently.

    Also the very fact that Black 13 was placed under 'towers' suggests that it is tied into ka, or if you like the will of the Dark Tower/Gan (which I think is the same thing) that Black 13 was destroyed. I.e. quite literally the crushing power of a tower... order coming down on chaos, metaphorically speaking.

    Something that just popped into my head as I was writing the previous passage. Apologies if someone already brought that up earlier in the thread.

    Not that Gan/the Tower/ka is necessarily responsible for the death of so many innocents, (except in the sense that all that happens is ka...) merely that it used those events to bring about it's will. If that makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Possibly. I don't really buy it though, it just seems to me that it was set up by King/ka to be the destruction of the glass... although I agree the relevant passages (not in front of me right now) could be interpreted differently.
    Yeah, I don't really buy my idea either, who knows, I was just thinking out loud with that one.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Also the very fact that Black 13 was placed under 'towers' suggests that it is tied into ka, or if you like the will of the Dark Tower/Gan (which I think is the same thing) that Black 13 was destroyed. I.e. quite literally the crushing power of a tower... order coming down on chaos, metaphorically speaking.
    I've never thought of that before. That is an interesting idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Something that just popped into my head as I was writing the previous passage. Apologies if someone already brought that up earlier in the thread.

    Not that Gan/the Tower/ka is necessarily responsible for the death of so many innocents, (except in the sense that all that happens is ka...) merely that it used those events to bring about it's will. If that makes sense.
    This is something I had thought of before...hmmmmmm
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  14. #39
    Along the Path of the Beam BoogerSnax is on a distinguished road

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    :radioactive: Black 13 and it's "final" location

    Obviously, the final location where it known to have been, was something only current events could have dictated.
    Do you think it was meant to be seen as a dark force that actually drew evil to those buildings, and what do you think it's <13's> final outcome was?

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    It might be possible, but I don't think it would draw evil to the towers. If it did, wouldn't that mean that it would potentially destroy itself? I'd rather like to think of it as ka (how lame that sometimes may be).

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    Not so much that it intentionally drew the evil, but that it's presnce made the evil manifest itself there.

    And, as I believe that book 7 felt forced all the way through, it almost seems like an avenue King meant to explore, but got sidetracked as the story moved along.

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    i think black 13 is still there somewhere. underneath all that is left, that it got bulldozed under when the final cleanup came. god help the world if anything ever gets built there.

    wonder if king will ever work black 13 into a story again. like have something being built there and have it be unearthed?

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    I would imagine evil people would be attracted there just like good people are attracted to the rose.

    and its final location? I must admit, sometimes I wonder if it survived somehow. If its just as cruel and wicked as it always was but in a new location. I guess the best place to find it would be to track where alot of evil is coming from and then start looking. Maybe it'll even turn up in a future SK novel?

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    That's an interesting idea, but I think the whole point really was that it's ka/the Tower/Gan's way of ensuring the Glass's destruction.

    Never say never though... (I think King will leave this one alone though.)

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    I've moved this thread from the DT7 book discussion section to here, as it's more relevant to SoS. I've also merged it with CK's thread that posed the same question

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    Do you feel that King was implying that Black 13's placement in the lock box under the Twin Towers caused the 9-11 attacks? Also, do you feel that it was destroyed in the attacks?
    Thoughts?


    Reading SOS last night and I had to dig out a map of NYC. Never bothered before. Figured like he said, he took some liberties with the geography, something along those lines. (I guess the Dixie Pig, 61st and 2nd? 3rd? is like Bloomingdale's?) but I was curious about the geography--maybe because there's something about a black needle pointing at the sky...sorry, can't find the exact location--but that seemed like a description of what they want to place at the site, some kind of...needle...? shrug, dunno.

    But to answer the question, no. The magic has gone out of the world and men have replaced their lack of faith with rational thought--funny how that scene with Mia and Susannah on the allure echoed the scene in Book I, Walter lecturing Roland on stuff, metaphysics I guess. Slap me if I'm wrong. Do it with feeling and win a Kewpie doll.
    The towers fell because the magic is gone.

    And yes, it was destroyed. We would have seen it on Geraldo if it was still around.

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    I have to admit, I was rather freaked out over the passage when I first read it.

    More because I had been in and out of the WTC on numerous occasions then anything else.

    You are right, Whitey. The geography is indeed off. Plus there never were any storage lockers in the WTC.

    If Black 13 wasn't destroyed, there's a good chance it made it to a landfill in Jersey.

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    I forgot to mention...several times while in Manhatten I've spotted the tag of 'Bango Skank' on different locations. Next time I'm in the city, I'll grab some pics if I spot them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post

    I think he was probably trying to make the connection that evil draws more evil and in that sense Black 13 was a contributor to the Towers falling.
    Yup
    Just like the marsden house

    though it does make me a little bit uneasy when an author connects one of their plot devices to real world tragedies, not that it wasnt clever but yeah...
    if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do

  25. #50
    Along the Path of the Beam lordmerchant is on a distinguished road

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    Default What happened to black thirteen?

    It just occured to me the other night, before Jake and father Callahan had their showdown in the dixie pig they stored black 13 away in a locker in the WTC (thats where I seem to remember the locker being anyway) Later in the series when roland travelled to new yorks future to meet with the leaders of the tet corporation I expected this to be brought up but it wasnt, I cant remember what the year was at this point (99?) Are we to assume that the tet corporation had not discovered black thirteen, or it ended up in the hands of NC posotronics...Or did the presence of black thirteen in the WTC have something to do with 9/11?

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