Black 13 and it's "final" location

[Wuducynn]

Do you feel that King was implying that Black 13's placement in the lock box under the Twin Towers caused the 9-11 attacks? Also, do you feel that it was destroyed in the attacks?
Thoughts?

[Storyslinger]

I think he was just trying to tie in a dark event with a dark object. On the note of whether or not it was destroyed, the balls we're fragile, but 13 had powerful magic. It could have escaped, but if it didn't, it was most certainly destroyed.

[MonteGss]

Maybe he was trying to say that the jihadists were actually of The White and crashed those planes to try to destroy Black 13....?

No, I really don't believe that.

I think he was probably trying to make the connection that evil draws more evil and in that sense Black 13 was a contributor to the Towers falling.

[flaggwalkstheline]

I think he was probably trying to make the connection that evil draws more evil and in that sense Black 13 was a contributor to the Towers falling.

Yup
Just like the marsden house

though it does make me a little bit uneasy when an author connects one of their plot devices to real world tragedies, not that it wasnt clever but yeah...

[obscurejude]

What about the posters in the New York/ Fedic tunnel. Does that mean that people went to see the towers fall before Black 13 was placed underneath? In this sense, it was just coincidence, mayhap a fitting one, but leaves little causation to Black 13.

[MonteGss]

Damn, that is a good point jude. I forgot about those posters advertising their destruction. Then again, nobody knew Black 13 was there so they could advertise it anyway....not knowing they were destroying something evil like them.

[Wuducynn]

That was a good question. My point of view on that is, that the Great Old Ones were viewing various time flows back in their heyday so there is no "before or after" for them, they just chose which event to go see and did so.

[obscurejude]

So, what comes first, the poster or Black 13? I'm going to be thinking about this all day. I got the feeling that the posters were very old, and people witnessed 9/11 quite a few times. Another question, how could events in the Keystone world be witnessed before they transpired- with the whole "time only moves forward" thing.

[Wuducynn]

with the whole "time only moves forward" thing.

First, you want to remember that the "Time only moves forward in the Keystone Rose world" theory is just that, a theory. It may be true and it may not be.

[Brainslinger]

So, what comes first, the poster or Black 13? I'm going to be thinking about this all day. I got the feeling that the posters were very old, and people witnessed 9/11 quite a few times. Another question, how could events in the Keystone world be witnessed before they transpired- with the whole "time only moves forward" thing.

Some of this stuff deals with the last book, so I'll spoiler tag it...-

Spoiler:

Even if we assume that the characters are right in their belief that time only goes forward in the Keystone world, that doesn't mean that the great old ones could not witness the events of 9/11.

Why?

Well, why should we assume the events of 9/11 only happened in the Keystone world? Remember there are many worlds, very close together with very little differences between them. The Dixie pig entrance that Jake and Susannah traveled through was in the Keystone world, it's true, but if I remember correctly there was a whole complex of tunnels and doors in the dogan the other side, and I don't think they all connected to Keystone world. In fact, I imagine the majority of them probably didn't.

Back to the topic, I don't think Black 13 caused the 9/11 events. It was ka's way of ensuring it was destroyed though. Even if we go consider the idea that Black 13 influenced the minds of the terrorists (something that makes me uneasy, those scum were responsible for their own actions),

a) I'm not sure Black 13 would want to cause it's own destruction... unless it's a suggestion that it was setting itself free? Sure you could argue, it's chaotic and evil and that is by nature self-destructive, especially if it got to cause more deaths and chaos in it's destruction... but I'm not convinced. I think the nature of the Wizard's Rainbow is to survive and roll to new people to influence in turn.

b) When you consider that the terrorist attacks were likely planned miles away and well in advance, I think it would be beyond Black 13s influence anyway. Much of the story seemed to suggest that Black 13 needs to be in a relatively close proximity to influence a person.

The team were a few miles from The Callas when it rolled the ka-tet todash (I'm assuming it's ok to leave the spoilers tags out here, since you should have read Wolves before coming to this book anyway.) and in the instances it affected people directly (like Eddie in the cave and Jake and Callahan in this book) they were right in the same room when they were affected.

[Wuducynn]

Back to the topic, I don't think Black 13 caused the 9/11 events. It was ka's way of ensuring it was destroyed though. Even if we go consider the idea that Black 13 influenced the minds of the terrorists (something that makes me uneasy, those scum were responsible for their own actions),

a) I'm not sure Black 13 would want to cause it's own destruction... unless it's a suggestion that it was setting itself free? Sure you could argue, it's chaotic and evil and that is by nature self-destructive, especially if it got to cause more deaths and chaos in it's destruction... but I'm not convinced. I think the nature of the Wizard's Rainbow is to survive and roll to new people to influence in turn.

b) When you consider that the terrorist attacks were likely planned miles away and well in advance, I think it would be beyond Black 13s influence anyway. Much of the story seemed to suggest that Black 13 needs to be in a relatively close proximity to influence a person.

The team were a few miles from The Callas when it rolled the ka-tet todash (I'm assuming it's ok to leave the spoilers tags out here, since you should have read Wolves before coming to this book anyway.) and in the instances it affected people directly (like Eddie in the cave and Jake and Callahan in this book) they were right in the same room when they were affected.

I'm with ya Brainster. I don't think Black Thirteen tried to influence the terrorists into killing it. Doesn't make sense. I don't agree that the terrorists would be beyond its influence though.
In Wolves and SOS I didn't see anything saying that you HAD to be in some proximity to Black Thirteen for it to effect you. Anyway, thats really neither here nor there as the saying goes.
Maybe it knew it couldn't be destroyed by the Towers falling and it drawing the terrorists to the Towers was a way to wreak havoc and to have it go into hiding until it wants to be found again?
As far as the terrorists making their own choices, I don't think Black Thirteen influencing them cancels that fact out. Remember, Black Thirteen is known to use folks best intentions to get what it wants and the terrorists obviously thought they were doing good.

[MonteGss]

I agree with that, CK.

[obscurejude]

CK, very interesting. I posted before I read that. I still have a few issues, see above.

[obscurejude]

Okay, care to elaborate sir? Why is it only a theory, and if it is only a theory, DT7

Spoiler:

why is death permanent as in the case of Jake?

[Wuducynn]

Okay, care to elaborate sir? Why is it only a theory, and if it is only a theory, why is

Spoiler:

death permanent as in the case of Jake?

How was it proven as a fact?

Spoiler:

Where do we see that Jake's death was permanent?

[jayson]

How was it proven as a fact?

Spoiler:

Where do we see that Jake's death was permanent?

Spoiler:

especially if you believe the Jake at the end is still the same Jake, which has never been ruled out.

i agree with you and jean. like i've said many times before, i think the reader can often confuse what the characters [especially Roland] believe to be the metaphysical "rules" of the world with the way things actually work. we never received any info about time only going one way from anyone more authoritative than a character, or the narrator on a character's thoughts. they took it as a hard and fast rule, but that doesn't make it true.

however if it is true that time only goes fwd in that world, there are some issues which would be confusing, if not contradictory.

[obscurejude]

I just read the section last night, and that's what the narrator says,

Spoiler:

"I won't move." Every word still clear, still sure. But now Roland could see blood also darkening the bottom of Jake's shirt and the crotch of his jeans, blooming there like roses. Once before he died and had come back. But not from this world. In this one, death was always for keeps."

DTVII Hardcover 453-454

Is this proof enough?

[Wuducynn]

I just read the section last night, and that's what the narrator says,

Spoiler:

"I won't move." Every word still clear, still sure. But now Roland could see blood also darkening the bottom of Jake's shirt and the crotch of his jeans, blooming there like roses. Once before he died and had come back. But not from this world. In this one, death was always for keeps."

DTVII Hardcover 453-454

Is this proof enough?

That narration is coming from Roland's perspective, his belief.

[obscurejude]

CK, I usually have no problem following you, but I'm really lost. Is there a thread or something where the "theory" has been discussed?

[Jean]

fully agree with Matthew here. It's like ka. We accept that it exists within the context of the novel only because Roland or someone else believes so. It's a peculiar case of readers' naiveté. Much the same way we could believe that whippoorwill augured death because Tom Saywer thinks so. There is a context of described beliefs, and a context of described reality; sometimes they are hard to differ (sometimes hardly possible), especially when the reality described is a world that has moved on, and all cultural contexts are confused.

[obscurejude]

What about the Tet's whole preoccupation with getting to the Keystone world before

Spoiler:

King is killed?

Which aspect is "peculiar" Jean. I'd just like to follow you a little better, I understand what you are saying in terms of literary prose, but I'm not sure if I understand how it specifically applies here. Do you kennit?

[Jean]

Yes. I don't even know whether or not they were right in believing that time went only one way there, and

Spoiler:

Jake had died forever

, and all that - but along with Matthew I don't think we have enough conclusive proof. My main point was that TDT is complex enough for us to have to [at least try to] discriminate between the reality (as described there) from the lore, mythology, superstitions, and false beliefs (as described there).

[Letti]

Hey fellas, try to be a bit more careful with the spoilers, please. It's not a spoiler thread but I have seen them everywhere.

[obscurejude]

I'm really surprised that I never thought about this particularly issue in this light. Thank you Jean, for the suggestions.

So what makes the "keystone" world keystone?

[jayson]

So what makes the "keystone" world keystone?

Stephen King lives there? maybe he falsely believes his own world to be the real one. maybe it's an existentialist tale. well, to me they all are, but you know what i mean.