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Thread: Black 13 and it's "final" location

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Default Black 13 and the Twin Towers

    Do you feel that King was implying that Black 13's placement in the lock box under the Twin Towers caused the 9-11 attacks? Also, do you feel that it was destroyed in the attacks?
    Thoughts?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Guardian of the Beam Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger will become famous soon enough Storyslinger's Avatar

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    I think he was just trying to tie in a dark event with a dark object. On the note of whether or not it was destroyed, the balls we're fragile, but 13 had powerful magic. It could have escaped, but if it didn't, it was most certainly destroyed.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Maybe he was trying to say that the jihadists were actually of The White and crashed those planes to try to destroy Black 13....?

    No, I really don't believe that.

    I think he was probably trying to make the connection that evil draws more evil and in that sense Black 13 was a contributor to the Towers falling.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    What about the posters in the New York/ Fedic tunnel. Does that mean that people went to see the towers fall before Black 13 was placed underneath? In this sense, it was just coincidence, mayhap a fitting one, but leaves little causation to Black 13.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Damn, that is a good point jude. I forgot about those posters advertising their destruction. Then again, nobody knew Black 13 was there so they could advertise it anyway....not knowing they were destroying something evil like them.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    That was a good question. My point of view on that is, that the Great Old Ones were viewing various time flows back in their heyday so there is no "before or after" for them, they just chose which event to go see and did so.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    So, what comes first, the poster or Black 13? I'm going to be thinking about this all day. I got the feeling that the posters were very old, and people witnessed 9/11 quite a few times. Another question, how could events in the Keystone world be witnessed before they transpired- with the whole "time only moves forward" thing.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    I agree with that, CK.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    CK, very interesting. I posted before I read that. I still have a few issues, see above.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    with the whole "time only moves forward" thing.
    First, you want to remember that the "Time only moves forward in the Keystone Rose world" theory is just that, a theory. It may be true and it may not be.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Okay, care to elaborate sir? Why is it only a theory, and if it is only a theory, DT7
    Spoiler:
    why is death permanent as in the case of Jake?

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Okay, care to elaborate sir? Why is it only a theory, and if it is only a theory, why is
    Spoiler:
    death permanent as in the case of Jake?
    How was it proven as a fact?
    Spoiler:
    Where do we see that Jake's death was permanent?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    I just read the section last night, and that's what the narrator says,

    Spoiler:
    "I won't move." Every word still clear, still sure. But now Roland could see blood also darkening the bottom of Jake's shirt and the crotch of his jeans, blooming there like roses. Once before he died and had come back. But not from this world. In this one, death was always for keeps."
    DTVII Hardcover 453-454

    Is this proof enough?

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    I just read the section last night, and that's what the narrator says,

    Spoiler:
    "I won't move." Every word still clear, still sure. But now Roland could see blood also darkening the bottom of Jake's shirt and the crotch of his jeans, blooming there like roses. Once before he died and had come back. But not from this world. In this one, death was always for keeps."
    DTVII Hardcover 453-454

    Is this proof enough?
    That narration is coming from Roland's perspective, his belief.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    CK, I usually have no problem following you, but I'm really lost. Is there a thread or something where the "theory" has been discussed?

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    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    fully agree with Matthew here. It's like ka. We accept that it exists within the context of the novel only because Roland or someone else believes so. It's a peculiar case of readers' naiveté. Much the same way we could believe that whippoorwill augured death because Tom Saywer thinks so. There is a context of described beliefs, and a context of described reality; sometimes they are hard to differ (sometimes hardly possible), especially when the reality described is a world that has moved on, and all cultural contexts are confused.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    What about the Tet's whole preoccupation with getting to the Keystone world before
    Spoiler:
    King is killed?
    Which aspect is "peculiar" Jean. I'd just like to follow you a little better, I understand what you are saying in terms of literary prose, but I'm not sure if I understand how it specifically applies here. Do you kennit?

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    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Yes. I don't even know whether or not they were right in believing that time went only one way there, and
    Spoiler:
    Jake had died forever
    , and all that - but along with Matthew I don't think we have enough conclusive proof. My main point was that TDT is complex enough for us to have to [at least try to] discriminate between the reality (as described there) from the lore, mythology, superstitions, and false beliefs (as described there).

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Hey fellas, try to be a bit more careful with the spoilers, please. It's not a spoiler thread but I have seen them everywhere.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    How was it proven as a fact?
    Spoiler:
    Where do we see that Jake's death was permanent?
    Spoiler:
    especially if you believe the Jake at the end is still the same Jake, which has never been ruled out.


    i agree with you and jean. like i've said many times before, i think the reader can often confuse what the characters [especially Roland] believe to be the metaphysical "rules" of the world with the way things actually work. we never received any info about time only going one way from anyone more authoritative than a character, or the narrator on a character's thoughts. they took it as a hard and fast rule, but that doesn't make it true.

    however if it is true that time only goes fwd in that world, there are some issues which would be confusing, if not contradictory.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    I'm really surprised that I never thought about this particularly issue in this light. Thank you Jean, for the suggestions.

    So what makes the "keystone" world keystone?

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    So what makes the "keystone" world keystone?
    Stephen King lives there? maybe he falsely believes his own world to be the real one. maybe it's an existentialist tale. well, to me they all are, but you know what i mean.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    There's a passing comment that is bothersome to me in DT VII, "this is the only world which anything matters, at least in some significant way" I guess its just more reader naivete, but this is really bothering me. Its the difference between co-op city and Brooklyn. This is empirical evidence (at least within the tale). Clear disparity between realities.

    Sorry to derail the conversation Mathew. Do I need to start another thread?

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    Gunslinger Daghain is on a distinguished road Daghain's Avatar

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    I actually thought it was really clever of King to leave Black Thirteen in the Twin Towers. I took it to mean they would be destroyed when the towers came down.

    And jude, that would probably be a really good thread to start.



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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Be on the lookout for a new thread.

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