Cemetery Dance discussion thread

[bdwyer19]

Which book is it? I wonder if you might be able to transfer the order to a member here if it’s one they may have missed out on... just a thought

The Blatty Lost Scripts. NOT any of my King orders! Lol.
If anyone is indeed interested in a transfer let me know.

I don't have enough posts to look at your profile or PM you but I would be interested in a transfer! I missed out on the earlier LRB titles and I'm trying to catch up. I didn't even realize this one hadn't yet been released...

Hi,
I can't send you a PM but if you're interested maybe Brian can point us in the right direction? It might be after the Turkey day holiday but we should be able to work this out somehow.

Brian has always pointed you in the right direction. It's not my fault if you're going in circles.

Since I got here before the other Brian, I'll try to help.

All you have to do is let Mindy know what you want to do.

Perhaps the simplest way is for lotuz to pay you through PayPal. Then you just have to ask Mindy to change the shipping and email address on the order.

Another way would be to initiate a refund once it's agreed that lotuz is the new purchaser. If he's already a CD customer, it will be even easier to do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you OTHER Brian(of many Brian's)
as always you know I like my circles!
(But seriously thank you)

All other Brian's, we've taken care of it.

Glad I don’t need to intervene!!

[Brian James Freeman]

I hereby call this meeting of the International King Collectors Named Brian to order...

[Brian861]

Present!

[Hunchback Jack]

I'm Brian. And so is my wife!

You beat me to it!

[Johnny007]

I write this post ONLY about business practices. I am not out to hurt anyone’s feelings but I’ve had these sentiments since about 2012/13.

I just bought a lettered edition of Sleeping Beauties on the secondary market. I paid $3K so the seller made 20%+ on his original investment of $2.5K. Not bad and I’m not complaining about that. But I went to the CD/Lonely Road Books website to see if I could find a publishing date. I was utterly shocked to find out that this book is not expected to be published until the spring of 2018.

Most of you probably missed the latest Forbes US “wealth” edition (limited distribution areas only) but I was one of the top 75,000,000 wage earners in 2016. So lending the money to CD for 6, 9, or whatever months isn’t a big deal for me. But I am concerned about those who aren’t in the top 75 million. I wonder where CD’s bank is when it comes to borrowing money for a Stephen King edition. I know that we as avid SK collectors are a captive audience and don’t have any ways to get around this but I’m wondering if anybody else is upset for being the CD banker?

For arithmetic’s sake, the 3 different Sleeping Beauties’ editions bring 3/4 million interest-free dollars into the CD coffers. I didn’t do the math on Gwendy’s Button Box. Why don’t they have a letter of credit with a bank to finance these editions? Why are we the bankers? I could maybe understand this for a brand new small publisher but CD is hardly a small press. A line of credit for a Stephen King endeavor is about as risk-free as you can get! I’m venting about this issue because the practice is antithetical to the way I was taught to conduct business in under-grad and grad school. A captive audience stuck with the financing bill is what we’ve become.

Why not instead of demanding for the full amount on announcement day, give the potential buyer the option to pay for a book in installments – maximum of 3. Since it seems like we wait for 6-12 months for some of these books, installment loans seem to be a decent option. But asking for the full amount and having a delivery date so far in the future is unfair.

While I am venting, I might as well again add my distaste for the lack of transparency when it comes to PCs and smaller-press proofs. All of them. CD is NOT the lone ranger on this issue. PCs began to lack any luster about 15 years ago precisely because they dilute the secondary market and there is no way of finding out how many PCs were published. I have some PC copies but they come from the day when publishing PCs were not the big “money grab” that seems pervasive today. I have no problem with a business making money. But maybe having some transparency would make these editions more palatable. FWIW, before I composed this post, I discussed my views with two well-known, “veteran” collectors. One of them referred to PCs as “pieces of crap.” Harsh? Yes, but it is indicative that collectors are maybe a little bit tired of this.

Or maybe this view is unique to me. Maybe ya’ll don’t care about any of this. I’m sure you’ll tell me one way or the other.

Best,
John

[stroppygoblin]

Much as I agree with the majority of the previous post, I would defend a couple of things with regard to CD.

1. CD ARE a small press. They may be one of the bigger small presses, but they are not in the same ballpark as the huge companies such as Scribner, Hodder, etc.
2. The original date for SB was 2017, it got postponed due to technical delays with, I believe, the Tray Case manufacturer.
3. Personally I dont have too much of a problem with pre-paying for a book. Cash Flow can be the biggest problem for a small press and CD have very creative ways of keeping the money rolling in whilst providing value for money to their subscribers (The CD collectors club which offers 50% off Gift Vouchers once a year is a great example).

Would I like the ability to make stage payments? hell yes, but I don't really see myself as being CD's Banker. I actually find it nice when a book arrives and I think, "Great! I've already paid for that!"

[Randall Flagg]

Instead of advancing CD money, a person is free to invest their money, perhaps in stocks. As long as they earn >20% return on the gross dollars invested, they can then buy the book(s) on the secondary market, much like you did. $750K seems like a lot, but I didn't loan CD 750K, I loaned them $3,100.

The PC issue is a concern, and deserves its own separate response. As soon as I figure out what I want to say, I'll post.

[webstar1000]

I write this post ONLY about business practices. I am not out to hurt anyone’s feelings but I’ve had these sentiments since about 2012/13.

I just bought a lettered edition of Sleeping Beauties on the secondary market. I paid $3K so the seller made 20%+ on his original investment of $2.5K. Not bad and I’m not complaining about that. But I went to the CD/Lonely Road Books website to see if I could find a publishing date. I was utterly shocked to find out that this book is not expected to be published until the spring of 2018.

Most of you probably missed the latest Forbes US “wealth” edition (limited distribution areas only) but I was one of the top 75,000,000 wage earners in 2016. So lending the money to CD for 6, 9, or whatever months isn’t a big deal for me. But I am concerned about those who aren’t in the top 75 million. I wonder where CD’s bank is when it comes to borrowing money for a Stephen King edition. I know that we as avid SK collectors are a captive audience and don’t have any ways to get around this but I’m wondering if anybody else is upset for being the CD banker?

For arithmetic’s sake, the 3 different Sleeping Beauties’ editions bring 3/4 million interest-free dollars into the CD coffers. I didn’t do the math on Gwendy’s Button Box. Why don’t they have a letter of credit with a bank to finance these editions? Why are we the bankers? I could maybe understand this for a brand new small publisher but CD is hardly a small press. A line of credit for a Stephen King endeavor is about as risk-free as you can get! I’m venting about this issue because the practice is antithetical to the way I was taught to conduct business in under-grad and grad school. A captive audience stuck with the financing bill is what we’ve become.

Why not instead of demanding for the full amount on announcement day, give the potential buyer the option to pay for a book in installments – maximum of 3. Since it seems like we wait for 6-12 months for some of these books, installment loans seem to be a decent option. But asking for the full amount and having a delivery date so far in the future is unfair.

While I am venting, I might as well again add my distaste for the lack of transparency when it comes to PCs and smaller-press proofs. All of them. CD is NOT the lone ranger on this issue. PCs began to lack any luster about 15 years ago precisely because they dilute the secondary market and there is no way of finding out how many PCs were published. I have some PC copies but they come from the day when publishing PCs were not the big “money grab” that seems pervasive today. I have no problem with a business making money. But maybe having some transparency would make these editions more palatable. FWIW, before I composed this post, I discussed my views with two well-known, “veteran” collectors. One of them referred to PCs as “pieces of crap.” Harsh? Yes, but it is indicative that collectors are maybe a little bit tired of this.

Or maybe this view is unique to me. Maybe ya’ll don’t care about any of this. I’m sure you’ll tell me one way or the other.

Best,
John

Insightful post John. I am not rich.. by any means. In fact I make a year roughly $35000US. My wife makes a lot more yes, but I do not.. and she doesn't buy my books for me. I have all the upcoming King titles pre-paid and on order. It comes to about $6700US give or take... It is a lot to shell out BUT, CD gave me and others here the chance to buy before it went out to the outside world. Brian didn't have to do that... but he did. Could I afford it... no but I made it work because to me it was an investment... and I WANT them. I buy 80% of my books by trading, selling, and facilitating deals so to speak so this was harder for me defiantly... but worth it. I guess for me, I am super thankful that I have the chance to get them before I miss that chance and someone else charges me that 20% more. I have no issue with this.... I really do not.

PC's ... I think there is too many yes. I think there should be no more than a couple. MAX 2/3 on letter and 9/10 on number but that is just me.

[Johnny007]

Much as I agree with the majority of the previous post, I would defend a couple of things with regard to CD.

1. CD ARE a small press. They may be one of the bigger small presses, but they are not in the same ballpark as the huge companies such as Scribner, Hodder, etc.
2. The original date for SB was 2017, it got postponed due to technical delays with, I believe, the Tray Case manufacturer.
3. Personally I dont have too much of a problem with pre-paying for a book. Cash Flow can be the biggest problem for a small press and CD have very creative ways of keeping the money rolling in whilst providing value for money to their subscribers (The CD collectors club which offers 50% off Gift Vouchers once a year is a great example).

Would I like the ability to make stage payments? hell yes, but I don't really see myself as being CD's Banker. I actually find it nice when a book arrives and I think, "Great! I've already paid for that!"

Simon,

1) They are large enough to have a letter of credit with a bank to cover any SK endeavor. As I said, SK collectors are a captive audience.
2) That risk/delay should be borne by the business and not the customers.
3) Why should the cash flow of a business become the customer's problem?

I'm glad you have no problem advancing cash to a business that cannot guarantee a firm delivery date.

Best,
John

[lotuz]

RE: Prepayment
I don't see a huge problem with prepayment for upcoming books, except for presses that aren't fully solvent (which are the presses that probably need it the most!). I don't know the details but I know in the past there has been an issue with a small press that took a bunch of pre-order money and then declared bankruptcy and lots of folks were out of both money and books. They possibly re-opened under a different name, which made people upset. I shouldn't make suppositions because I don't know all the details, but this seems to me to be a case of pre-payment gone awry.

I have absolutely no doubt that my CD and Sub Press books will arrive eventually. For example, I still have not received my very first order from CD that I placed in December of 2013 - The Damnation Game - which was due out in mid-2014 and at this point is 3.5 years delayed. I have never sent an email about it because I know that it will come eventually, and also it was only $100.

Also, from a business perspective, CD would be crazy not to take a $750k no-interest loan! They didn't force anybody to pre-pay, and the demand for SK works (especially lettered editions) is very inelastic. From what I have seen (and what has been said in this thread), they will also refund pre-orders back to the original payment method, making it pretty risk-free from the buyer's perspective also. If anything, this is a bit of a monopoly situation, where there is only one provider for a specific good (lettered editions of SB).

That being said, payment plans might ease the sour taste that this gives some people, especially for the books with $1k+ price tags.

I think your reply to Simon sums it up pretty well:

1. SK collectors are a captive audience (inelastic demand)
2. The customers have shown over and over again that they are willing to bear the risk/delay, so why shouldn't the business respond to this incentive for interest-free borrowing?
3. This one is the real issue: if CD were to have cash-flow problems and became unable to fulfill their orders, you would have a very good case. And the market could respond by lowering the "rating" of the borrower and making future interest-free loans harder to get.

RE: PC copies
On this topic, I agree. Yes, there seem to be too many PC copies out there, and yes it's a problem that the numbers of PC copies are tightly held. I do understand the necessity of having extra copies and have had an incident in the past where a Sub Press book showed up damaged and I freaked out a little bit because it was part of a set (The Expanse) and I was worried that I would never have a mint set with matching numbers. I sent an email and one of the extra copies was filled in with my number and sent to me . But the practice is going overboard, I think. It's hard to tell because no one knows exactly how many PC copies there are!

There is one publisher I'm aware of that doesn't do PC copies as such: Centipede Press. There are technically PC copies that are reserved for the "contributors and friends of the press" but the print run is almost always listed on the limitation page and they are numbered with Roman Numerals. Jerad also takes some risks with the way he numbers: the limitation number is printed on the page before the book is bound, so if a copy is damaged in shipment it's a pretty significant process to get a rebind with the same limitation number. My copy of The Anubis Gates had some damage and I had to settle for a different limitation number (in retrospect, I wish I would've kept the damaged copy and tried to get a discount on a second, undamaged copy).

[Johnny007]

Instead of advancing CD money, a person is free to invest their money, perhaps in stocks. As long as they earn >20% return on the gross dollars invested, they can then buy the book(s) on the secondary market, much like you did. $750K seems like a lot, but I didn't loan CD 750K, I loaned them $3,100.

The PC issue is a concern, and deserves its own separate response. As soon as I figure out what I want to say, I'll post.

The consumer should not pay the cost to finance the goods. The consumer should pay for the manufacturing cost plus some profit margin. The risk in this case is borne by the consumer and I'm arguing that the risk should be borne by the business and its bank. I'd rather have a bank have to write off a bad debt than me.

Arithmetic: Gift - 1750 x $125 = $219K, Numbered - 850 X $475 = $404K, Lettered - 52 X $2,500 = $130K. Total is approximately $753K.

Best,
John

[andyg75]

Ultimately, it’s up to the buyer to decide for his or herself if they want the books that CD offer, and by now everyone (even me as a new comer to the SK collecting world) is aware that when you order a book from CD, not only will it arrive at some point, but it will also be incredible. If the waiting time is an issue from payment to release, the option for a full refund back to your payment method creates the no risk/low risk, negating the issue in my eyes.

For me, there is no issue with paying up front, and if it helps the smaller press houses, then I feel I’m doing my little bit for the little man (or woman).

Just my opinion.

[Randall Flagg]

Johnny, your repeating your math, and your position that the buyer should not pay the cost to finance the goods. We get your position, so let others tell you theirs.

No person has to do business with CD.
Small Presses historically collect money in advance for books. That's how it was, is and shall be.


Btw, it's estimated that Tesla took 500,000 deposits of $1,000 (equals 500 million dollars) each for the Tesla 3. Granted that's a deposit, not full purchase price.

[redsoxfan565]

Not sure if this is allowed or if CD would allow someone to pick it up, but I cancelled my order for the regular signed/numbered edition this week. Not sure if someone can email him or CD to see if they can allow someone else to purchase it. Good luck.

[Brian861]

Ultimately, it’s up to the buyer to decide for his or herself if they want the books that CD offer, and by now everyone (even me as a new comer to the SK collecting world) is aware that when you order a book from CD, not only will it arrive at some point, but it will also be incredible. If the waiting time is an issue from payment to release, the option for a full refund back to your payment method creates the no risk/low risk, negating the issue in my eyes.

For me, there is no issue with paying up front, and if it helps the smaller press houses, then I feel I’m doing my little bit for the little man (or woman).

Just my opinion.

I'm fairly new to the collecting game as well (a few years now) and I don't know of any other practice where you don't pay upfront to a small press. I also know that when I place an order with any said small press, it's probably going to be a year or better before that book arrives. This too I happily accept as it's all I've ever known.

I will continue to sing the praises for CD as they pretty much saved my ass and that of my family when I was laid off for a year. I had in the neighbor of 30 or so preorders worth $1000s on paper. I emailed Mindy, explained my situation, and all she asked for was a few days to put the refunds together. They didn't charge me a "restocking fee" or "refund fee", or any other fee that other companies may have. I received back every penny that I asked for. It didn't cost me a dime to "loan" CD anything. The front money, if you will, and the time it takes to produce the product is more than worth the wait. The refunds arrived, I eventually was called back to work, and I continue to place orders with CD to this date.

Brian has stated here, on more than one occasion, that if a customer isn't happy, for whatever reason, simply email Mindy and she'll get it taken care of. No harm, no foul, no butthurt.

As with any company/business; if you don't like their practices, simply choose not to do business with them. If a person chooses not to do business with CD, their loss IMO.

Edit: Quoted your post, Andy as a fellow supporter of CD. Thought I should clarify that LOL.

[Brian861]

Not sure if this is allowed or if CD would allow someone to pick it up, but I cancelled my order for the regular signed/numbered edition this week. Not sure if someone can email him or CD to see if they can allow someone else to purchase it. Good luck.

I know sometimes, once all the orders are shipped, they'll open back up offers to the public for any extras. Usually the CDCC gets first dibs on these (another awesome perk of membership ). Of course firing an email off to Brian never hurts either

[andyg75]

Ultimately, it’s up to the buyer to decide for his or herself if they want the books that CD offer, and by now everyone (even me as a new comer to the SK collecting world) is aware that when you order a book from CD, not only will it arrive at some point, but it will also be incredible. If the waiting time is an issue from payment to release, the option for a full refund back to your payment method creates the no risk/low risk, negating the issue in my eyes.

For me, there is no issue with paying up front, and if it helps the smaller press houses, then I feel I’m doing my little bit for the little man (or woman).

Just my opinion.

I'm fairly new to the collecting game as well (a few years now) and I don't know of any other practice where you don't pay upfront to a small press. I also know that when I place an order with any said small press, it's probably going to be a year or better before that book arrives. This too I happily accept as it's all I've ever known.

I will continue to sing the praises for CD as they pretty much saved my ass and that of my family when I was laid off for a year. I had in the neighbor of 30 or so preorders worth $1000s on paper. I emailed Mindy, explained my situation, and all she asked for was a few days to put the refunds together. They didn't charge me a "restocking fee" or "refund fee", or any other fee that other companies may have. I received back every penny that I asked for. It didn't cost me a dime to "loan" CD anything. The front money, if you will, and the time it takes to produce the product is more than worth the wait. The refunds arrived, I eventually was called back to work, and I continue to place orders with CD to this date.

Brian has stated here, on more than one occasion, that if a customer isn't happy, for whatever reason, simply email Mindy and she'll get it taken care of. No harm, no foul, no butthurt.

As with any company/business; if you don't like their practices, simply choose not to do business with them. If a person chooses not to do business with CD, their loss IMO.

Edit: Quoted your post, Andy as a fellow supporter of CD. Thought I should clarify that LOL.

Brian, feel free to quote my ramblings. I deal with CD based on their service and the outstanding quality of what they produce.

As a side note, I pay up front for all my internet purchases, technically speaking. The waiting time matters not 😀

[The Library Policeman]

Ultimately, it’s up to the buyer to decide for his or herself if they want the books that CD offer, and by now everyone (even me as a new comer to the SK collecting world) is aware that when you order a book from CD, not only will it arrive at some point, but it will also be incredible. If the waiting time is an issue from payment to release, the option for a full refund back to your payment method creates the no risk/low risk, negating the issue in my eyes.

For me, there is no issue with paying up front, and if it helps the smaller press houses, then I feel I’m doing my little bit for the little man (or woman).

Just my opinion.

I'm fairly new to the collecting game as well (a few years now) and I don't know of any other practice where you don't pay upfront to a small press. I also know that when I place an order with any said small press, it's probably going to be a year or better before that book arrives. This too I happily accept as it's all I've ever known.

I will continue to sing the praises for CD as they pretty much saved my ass and that of my family when I was laid off for a year. I had in the neighbor of 30 or so preorders worth $1000s on paper. I emailed Mindy, explained my situation, and all she asked for was a few days to put the refunds together. They didn't charge me a "restocking fee" or "refund fee", or any other fee that other companies may have. I received back every penny that I asked for. It didn't cost me a dime to "loan" CD anything. The front money, if you will, and the time it takes to produce the product is more than worth the wait. The refunds arrived, I eventually was called back to work, and I continue to place orders with CD to this date.

Brian has stated here, on more than one occasion, that if a customer isn't happy, for whatever reason, simply email Mindy and she'll get it taken care of. No harm, no foul, no butthurt.

As with any company/business; if you don't like their practices, simply choose not to do business with them. If a person chooses not to do business with CD, their loss IMO.

Edit: Quoted your post, Andy as a fellow supporter of CD. Thought I should clarify that LOL.

Well said, Brian.

Having been in on the last half dozen or so King SLs from CD - I also have no issue paying up front.

[andyg75]

Ultimately, it’s up to the buyer to decide for his or herself if they want the books that CD offer, and by now everyone (even me as a new comer to the SK collecting world) is aware that when you order a book from CD, not only will it arrive at some point, but it will also be incredible. If the waiting time is an issue from payment to release, the option for a full refund back to your payment method creates the no risk/low risk, negating the issue in my eyes.

For me, there is no issue with paying up front, and if it helps the smaller press houses, then I feel I’m doing my little bit for the little man (or woman).

Just my opinion.

I'm fairly new to the collecting game as well (a few years now) and I don't know of any other practice where you don't pay upfront to a small press. I also know that when I place an order with any said small press, it's probably going to be a year or better before that book arrives. This too I happily accept as it's all I've ever known.

I will continue to sing the praises for CD as they pretty much saved my ass and that of my family when I was laid off for a year. I had in the neighbor of 30 or so preorders worth $1000s on paper. I emailed Mindy, explained my situation, and all she asked for was a few days to put the refunds together. They didn't charge me a "restocking fee" or "refund fee", or any other fee that other companies may have. I received back every penny that I asked for. It didn't cost me a dime to "loan" CD anything. The front money, if you will, and the time it takes to produce the product is more than worth the wait. The refunds arrived, I eventually was called back to work, and I continue to place orders with CD to this date.

Brian has stated here, on more than one occasion, that if a customer isn't happy, for whatever reason, simply email Mindy and she'll get it taken care of. No harm, no foul, no butthurt.

As with any company/business; if you don't like their practices, simply choose not to do business with them. If a person chooses not to do business with CD, their loss IMO.

Edit: Quoted your post, Andy as a fellow supporter of CD. Thought I should clarify that LOL.

Well said, Brian.

Having been in on the last half dozen or so King SLs from CD - I also have no issue paying up front.

P.S. well said Brian! Forgot that bit... 😀

[jsmcmullen92]

Just to be devil's advocate, I believe Grant publishing (and grimm oak but never ordered from them just heard) will take pre orders but not require you to pay until it is ready. I will say it has its perks and downfalls. Great for when you want to order but don't have the money allowing you to save. Downfall when payment time comes and you don't have the money on hand and have to give it up because you forgot and the delays pushed it out of your brain.

[andyg75]

Just to be devil's advocate, I believe Grant publishing (and grimm oak but never ordered from them just heard) will take pre orders but not require you to pay until it is ready. I will say it has its perks and downfalls. Great for when you want to order but don't have the money allowing you to save. Downfall when payment time comes and you don't have the money on hand and have to give it up because you forgot and the delays pushed it out of your brain.

I think I prefer to pay up front, as I know if I can afford it there and then. There’s is always a chance of things being pushed out of my brain. I think it’s an age thing 😂

[ur2ndbiggestfan]

Personally, I prefer to have all the books sent to me for free and then I'll decide whether I want to keep them or not. Just saying.

[Brian861]

Just to be devil's advocate, I believe Grant publishing (and grimm oak but never ordered from them just heard) will take pre orders but not require you to pay until it is ready. I will say it has its perks and downfalls. Great for when you want to order but don't have the money allowing you to save. Downfall when payment time comes and you don't have the money on hand and have to give it up because you forgot and the delays pushed it out of your brain.

I think I prefer to pay up front, as I know if I can afford it there and then. There’s is always a chance of things being pushed out of my brain. I think it’s an age thing 😂

No doubt about the age thing

Personally, I prefer to have all the books sent to me for free and then I'll decide whether I want to keep them or not. Just saying.

Sounds like a win-win for everyone. Especially for Steve. I tried that once with a vehicle. They came and got it some months later

[Johnny007]

Jerome,

This will be my last post regarding CD. You questioned my math ("$750K seems like a lot") so I spelled it out for you and anyone who had questions about my math. Didn't think it was a big deal and it prevented no one from posting their opinions.

FYI -- I found this quote that I found interesting. Sound familiar? "I ordered the 1/350 AE. I just couldn't justify "loaning" CD 1K for an indeterminate amount of time."

"Edit: I ordered the 1/150 that is $350."

Have a good night and good luck with your picks tomorrow.

Best,
John

[St. Troy]

CD decides how to best handle their business; you should decide how to best handle yours.

Buy from them if it makes sense for you; refrain from doing so if that makes sense for you.

If it doesn’t make sense for you, that’s fine - but understand that your preferences and priorities have no global significance reflecting poorly on CD, and complaining about their choices (given that we’re not talking about things like fraud) is as senseless as it is pointless.