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Thread: The Dogan

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Default The Dogan

    When I first read about it it was really hard for me to understand what the hell was going on. Now that I am rereading it at the third time I think I can understand its system quite well.
    But let me think how you understand the Dogan.
    So it's a fantasy place inside Susannah's head. Here she can control her body easier.. it's like having a computer inside your head.
    But could everyone have such a thing? Such an inside room? Could Roland have stopped or at least slowed down the infection he was suffering from if he could have stepped his Dogan in his head when he was dying on the shore?
    Or is Susannah just this special?

    And...

    if it's just a fantasy place... how could Susannah see that the chap's eyes were blue? At that time she had no information about the chap's dad. Or did she feel it anyway?
    This Dogan thing is not absolutely clear for me.
    I have been thinking about the Dgan for long, please join my friends.
    Last edited by Darkthoughts; 08-28-2011 at 04:04 AM.

    Roland would have understood.

  2. #2
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Did you read Dreamcatcher? A very similar concept is developed there.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    No, I didn't. Do we get more information in it?

    Roland would have understood.

  4. #4
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    don't want to spoil it...

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Ehhh... just give me an answer.
    Does this book give an answer how Susannah can see the chap's eye colour?

    Roland would have understood.

  6. #6
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    No, not directly. But the dogan-like thing/place/concept is described in more details there. Anyway, I do not think it is a product of individual fantasy: it sure has a specific kind of objective existence.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    I don't think it would be a big spoiler if you gave me some more information about it. Really. *smiles foxily*
    So how do you see the Dogan? If you don't mind me asking.

    Roland would have understood.

  8. #8
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    I am not really ready to answer this question. I have a very clear mental picture of Dogan, as a kind of meta-reality which I do not think I am qualified to define. In a way, it is a kind of door; some passages to some locations (physical or mental) are made straight by the very [meta]physical nature of dogan, while others are blocked; thus, some ways you can move along in the "normal", plain reality are closed, while others, normally inaccessible, are open. The most direct way is that of communication with oneself (normally marred by outside distractions); thus Susannah's ability to control her labors; but there are others, too.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    I think that the Dogan is certainly specific just to Susannah. Remember how her MPD condition would create a whole other personality (i.e. Detta)? Now just because she wasn't born as Detta, does that mean Detta wasn't real? I think you'll agree she was very real.

    A plus to this condition was that Susannah was able to visualize things acutely. She demonstrated that ability at River Crossing (I think that's the name. The place near Ludd where the ka-tet palavered with the old folks.) She saw things in her mind concerning the history of the place that she would have no way of knowing for certain, yet it wasn't just imaginary. She saw what had been there. (At least that's the impression I got.)

    I think the Dogan is part of the same thing. It enabled her to create a special place in her own head to protect herself and control he bodily functions. It also allowed her to see far and wide via the screens, and I'm sure what she saw there was real, not just her imagination. Including her view of the chap.

    And don't forget the 'interworld telepathy' too (although I suspect Jake enhanced that power.)

    I remember Susannah speculating on how the different members of the ka-tet had developed special powers. Jake with his touch. Suze with her power of visualization, and Eddie with his ability to create talismanic objects.
    Spoiler:
    I hoped we'd see more of those powers utilised further, particularly in their battle with the Crimson King, but alas, it wasn't to be. One of my disappointments with DT7, although I don't hate the book. It would have felt more complete though for me.

  10. #10
    Citizen of Gilead Empath of the White is on a distinguished road Empath of the White's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Could Roland have stopped or at least slowed down the infection he was suffering from if he could have stepped his Dogan in his head when he was dying on the shore?
    Or is Susannah just this special?

    And...

    if it's just a fantasy place... how could Susannah see that the chap's eyes were blue? At that time she had no information about the chap's dad. Or did she feel it anyway?
    This Dogan thing is not absolutely clear for me.
    I have been thinking about the Dgan for long, please join my friends.
    I think the Dogan is something like a mental projection from one's imagination. Going by this statement, I think that Susannah's Dogan is something she constructed from fragments of Mia's memory. Had Roland ever seen a Dogan prior to his time on the beach, I think he could've slowed down his illness by imagining his body to be controlled in a structured, ordered manner and in effect created a Dogan.

    On the chap and his eye color being visible:

    Mia may have found Roland's blue eyes to be an appealing trait. So maybe she wanted that one trait to be present in her chap. Perhaps the blue eyes were the one thing she really wanted her chap to inherit from Roland. All this wishing may have resulted in her subconcious constructing an image of a babe with those blue eyes. And that image is what Susannah saw in the Dogan since the Dogan was, by my theory, constructed from Mia's memories of the Dogan where she met with Walter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empath of the White View Post

    I think the Dogan is something like a mental projection from one's imagination. Going by this statement, I think that Susannah's Dogan is something she constructed from fragments of Mia's memory.
    Possibly, but I think it was more likely constructed from a mixture of Jake's description, and the her own idea of technology. Remember how the controls had a 60s look to them?

    I think the Dogan was all her own though, completely separate from Mia.

    Had Roland ever seen a Dogan prior to his time on the beach, I think he could've slowed down his illness by imagining his body to be controlled in a structured, ordered manner and in effect created a Dogan.
    Roland has a very well ordered mind, it's true, but I think that particularly ability is beyond him. If Susannah had been able to step into Roland's mind, in much the way Roland stepped into Detta's, she might have been able to do such a thing however.

  12. #12
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empath of the White View Post
    On the chap and his eye color being visible:

    Mia may have found Roland's blue eyes to be an appealing trait. So maybe she wanted that one trait to be present in her chap. Perhaps the blue eyes were the one thing she really wanted her chap to inherit from Roland. All this wishing may have resulted in her subconcious constructing an image of a babe with those blue eyes. And that image is what Susannah saw in the Dogan since the Dogan was, by my theory, constructed from Mia's memories of the Dogan where she met with Walter.
    Whenever Susan is thinking about the Dogan she always realises that it's from Jake's Dogan... Jake had told them his visit at the Dogan all the panels and screens and Susannah's Dogan got its bricks from his tale. Of course her Dogan had much older technics because she was from an older age.
    So I think it's absolutely sure that Susannah's Dogan was from Jake's story and not from Mia's memory.

    Anyway you might be right... Susannah could see the blue eyes because she shared her mind and her body with Mia who knew very well who the father of his child was.

    Roland would have understood.

  13. #13
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Anyway...
    how dangerous is it to use the Dogan? Can it cause death? Can you kill yourself this way? Or does your mind automatically stop you at a certain point?

    Roland would have understood.

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    With the level of control over her body and nervous system, I think Susannah could definitelly have used the Dogan to commit suicide. Set the 'heart beat' panel to 0, whatever. (Sure there wasn't a heart beat panel, but she could create one.)

    Not that she would have, but it was certainly possible. I think Mia might have stepped in and prevented her though if she realised what was happening. I say 'might' as I'm not convinced she would be successful, the dogan being Susannah's sanctuary, a place Mia likely couldn't penetrate.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    The Dogan is scary place... just imagine what could happen if someone had the ability to step into others' Dogans..

    Roland would have understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    The Dogan is scary place... just imagine what could happen if someone had the ability to step into others' Dogans..
    It could be good for a laugh though. Wait until the politician you have possessed is making a public speech and hit the 'orgasm' button at random intervals.

    Spoiler:
    Then for the finale there is the brown button under the console...


    (Sorry. My mind goes to naughty places sometimes.)

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    The Dogan is scary place... just imagine what could happen if someone had the ability to step into others' Dogans..
    It could be good for a laugh though. Wait until the politician you have possessed is making a public speech and hit the 'orgasm' button at random intervals.

    Spoiler:
    Then for the finale there is the brown button under the console...


    (Sorry. My mind goes to naughty places sometimes.)

    This thing didn't come to my mind... what I was thinking about how easily people could kill each other... but now that you have mentioned it...

    Roland would have understood.

  18. #18
    Gunslinger Apprentice JameseyLefebure is on a distinguished road JameseyLefebure's Avatar

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    [QUOTE=Brainslinger;274050]I
    I remember Susannah speculating on how the different members of the ka-tet had developed special powers. Jake with his touch. Suze with her power of visualization, and Eddie with his ability to create talismanic objects. [QUOTE]

    That's what I was going to say - that they all had an ability that they were using so Susannah's dogan was very much a real place - as is much in her mind I think - the bit i keep thinking back to was when Mia and Susannah got into a physical fight with each other after the phone call (where she found out how much of a grade A bitca Mia was) and she was inflicing pain to her own body with the slaps etc

    Also I don't think Roland could ever use or create a Dogan. Yes his mind is a very well ordered place but as Cort and others in his life have pointed out - he lacks imagination. I don't think he could ever imagine a place like that to retreat into

    Just my thoughts though

    Gotta say though i am LOVING Song Of Susannah right now!! This is the 2nd time I've read it, but I can't remember a single thing from it!! so it's just like a first read for me

    Jamesey
    xxxx

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    I really liked this story too, although I wished Callahan and Jake had more to do at the time. I know many didn't, partly due to the way it ended, but that wasn't a big issue for me due to how quickly the last books were published. (Imagine if we'd had to wait as long as those who read The Waste Lands had to wait for Wizard and Glass. I was fortunate there in that I didn't start the saga until after Wizard and Glass was published. My big wait was for Wolves of the Calla, but there wasn't much of a cliffhanger to resolve there.

    Anyway, back to Song of Susannah, I really liked the pace particularly after the slower paced books that preceded it. (Not that I dislike those books. It's just the variety is good if that makes sense.) It was quite a ride that reminded me tonally (if not in story) of the doorway segments of Drawing of the Three. It's interesting that much of the faster stuff happens America side, which I guess makes sense with a world that's moved on. (That never really occurred to me before.)

    Sorry, I just realised my post has nothing to do with the dogan. A story device I enjoyed by the way. I wish it had been employed instead of the Stephen King 'mail rights'. I don't like writer's directly influencing stories*, although his presence in itself was interesting.

    *That looks funny considering that writing is the greatest influence. What I mean is, I think a resolution should come from within the story.

  20. #20

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    She demonstrated that ability at River Crossing (I think that's the name. The place near Ludd where the ka-tet palavered with the old folks.)

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