He is a child.
He is an adult.
He is somewhere between.
I agree Lisa. In fact, I'd go further and say that there isn't typically a distinct moment in time when someone becomes wholly an adult. It's much more of a gradual process. Jake may show many signs that his ordeals are causing him to make mature decisions before his time, but he is still very much an 11 year old boy.Originally Posted by Darkthoughts
Exactly. Infact, it's one of the reasons I enjoyed WOTC so much, for that glimpse we get of Jake finally having the time, the setting and the companions (Oy and Benny) to act his age.
It was an indication to me that Jake is still very much a child, but that he was able (and probably all the more so because he was younger and lacking more adult inhibitions and anxieties) to adapt to the situations that he faced on the quest. That the trials he went through that we could perceive as making him adult, actually did nothing of the sort.
Exactly. Much like Jack Sawyer in The Talisman, both faced many trials which forced them to think and act like adults, but this didn't make them adults.
For me, I see Jake as trying to be a kid in WotC. He knows he's young and is missing out on childhood memories and so he tries, and somewhat succeeds, with Benny. He is a bit sad that he missed those memories and so he tries to be his age with him. But really, I think Jake passed on as a child the moment he met Roland in the desert. I think the time that he crossed over was in hearing of Roland becoming an adult. Everything that happens to Jake afterward is just part of his growing as a gunslinger, imo.
EDIT:
I just want to say that Jack Sawyer rocks. I love that kid, but he was almost always a kid forced to grow up fast to survive and to do what he must for his mother. Although many people have compared Jake and Jack as twinners, I don't think they are. I don't think that Jake was forced to grow up to survive. I think Jake just became what he was destined to become, a gunslinger.
Lalalalaaaa, lalalalaaa
Lalalalaaaa, lalalalaaa
sugarpop <3
Jake's age *SPOILERS*
At the end of the series when Susannah meets Eddie and Jake Toren, how old is Jake supposed to be? It doesn't say, and I don't recall anyone else either asking or telling his age.
Is he 21 (his age if he'd lived to 1987) or is he 11 (the age Jake Chambers was)? I'm tempted to say the former (that'd still make him Eddie's "kid" brother), but since the "real" Eddie and Jake weren't even related....
My impression was we were looking at a (roughly) 23-24 yr-old Eddie & 11-12 yr-old Jake (roughly the age we 'knew' them at in the series). Don't recall thinking about it in any other way.
That's why I asked--because Jake Chambers was born in 1966 but Eddie Dean was born in 1964, only two years earlier.
Does the year of birth of the 2 'old' Eddie & Jake's matter though?
What year does Susannah meet the 'new' Toren brothers in? Were we told? (I honestly can't remember)
- is it '99? - that would 'make' Eddie 36 & Jake 34. That doesn't seem right to me. (too old for both)
- is it '87 (as you mention above). That makes them 23 & 21. Again it doesn't seem right to me (too close in age).
I think regardless of the year of birth of the 'originals', the Toren brothers are c. 24 & 12 years old, or something like that.
Remember in Roland's world Eddie & Jake walk side-by-side, one 23 & the other 11, even though they were 'born' just 2 years apart?
I agree Brian. I got the impression that whoever we may believe these two are (ie. twinners, the "real" Eddie and Jake, or derivations or whatever) they are the ages Susannah is familiar with. Now hold old does that make Eddie since King says he's both 21 and 23 in TDotT?
It was 1987--Susannah asked if Ronald Reagan was really the President, as Eddie Dean had told her he was.
I didn't think Reagan was president in the end. Wasn't someone else? Gary something . . . ?
Are sins ever forgiven?
For those who loved this world... and knew friendly company therein. This Reunion is for you.
http://www.zazzle.com/Kidd_Ikarus*
Gary Hart, yeah. Wishful thinking on King's part.
Oh my bad. You were sayin how Eddie had told her during the series, not at the end in New York. I'm a dumb-ass. I cry your pardon.
For those who loved this world... and knew friendly company therein. This Reunion is for you.
http://www.zazzle.com/Kidd_Ikarus*
He is more child than adult in any of those books. Of course he got more mature till the end but I have always seen him as a child.
“The devil's voice is sweet to hear.”
-SK.
This is a really layered topic, with everyone making lots of good points.
I would argue that Jake is more of an adult than a child throughout the series as a whole. And by that, I mean he acts/responds to a lot of things more like an adult would than a child. And this isn't something new from his birth into Mid-World and his meeting the gunslinger: King makes it very clear that Jake's home life in NY is very structured, very organized, very professional, very adult. Jake has a problem making friends his own age because he acts too much like an adult rather than a child. He interacts with his parents (when they pay attention to him at all) more like an adult than a child. He interacts with Greta Shaw the same way. His entire life, Jake is expected to be mature and near perfect and in control. Which is the opposite of how many children are.
And that doesn't change, really, when he gets to Mid-World. He gets a few moments of freedom with Benny and Eddie (And Oy, who I think is one of the ways King reminded us of Jake's being a child) but for the most part, Jake still has to act mature, and controlled, only now people are shooting at him. I think Jake would (and did) relish his few opportunities to act like a kid, but by Wolves, its too ingrained in him to act like an adult. He still can act (and in many cases) think like a child, but his default response is to think of what an adult would do ... and in some cases, what Roland would do.
Having said that, I think Jake displays a lot of traits and characteristics of a child; He enjoys spending time with Benny; his willingness to forgive people (like Roland and Ben Slightman), his dependence on Roland. And now, having typed this post, I wish King would have given Jake a few more opportunities to just "be a kid," in addition to the deaths/kidnappings/insanity/beatings/betrayals Jake already had to endure.
Another Jake discussion... DT7 spoilers
Forgive me, it's been a while since I've read DT and so my facts may be a little rusty, but I have a theory I would like to discuss.
We all know Roland has done the loop many times, but maybe it hasn't been the same each time. What I mean is this, he came to the first door, got eddie, second door got crazy susannah, and the third door he created a paradox in which he would eventually get Jake back. Is it possible in every other loop he never got Jake back, he instead ended up with Jack Mort, and the fact that he saved Jake, who he thinks of as a son eventually, is what was the key to his redemption and acquiring the horn?
My facts may be sketchy, I'm starting to reread Gunslinger starting... last night.
What do you mean by 'ended up with Jack Mort'? You mean making a ka-tet with him?!
I am sorry if I misunderstood you.
Anyway I am sure the loops aren't the same.
Roland would have understood.
Well, Jack Mort was the third door. The first two doors he took people out of, the third door he went into the mind of Jack, the psycho. What if in other loops he decided not to save Jake from being shoved into traffic by mort, but instead, brought him through the door. I ask this because Jake didn't exactly become part of the group the same way that Eddie and Susannah did, and something must have happened for the horn to finally have made it into his possession.What do you mean by 'ended up with Jack Mort'? You mean making a ka-tet with him?!
I am sorry if I misunderstood you.
Anyway I am sure the loops aren't the same.
Thinking a little further, at the end of Gunslinger, the MIB kind of offers himself in exchange for Jake being dropped, or its implied. Why would MIB do this if not because Jake was important for some reason? Would MIB really decide to stop running and hang out with Roland if it wasn't for an important reason?
I don't think Jack Mort could be part of any kind of true ka-tet. He is weak and gutless. I think of Mort as a door to Jake.Well, Jack Mort was the third door. The first two doors he took people out of, the third door he went into the mind of Jack, the psycho. What if in other loops he decided not to save Jake from being shoved into traffic by mort, but instead, brought him through the door. I ask this because Jake didn't exactly become part of the group the same way that Eddie and Susannah did, and something must have happened for the horn to finally have made it into his possession.What do you mean by 'ended up with Jack Mort'? You mean making a ka-tet with him?!
I am sorry if I misunderstood you.
Anyway I am sure the loops aren't the same.
I think the horn appears at the end of the series to show us, the constant readers, that the loops change. And so does Roland, it's even more important. So does his decisions.
Of course there are many theories about the horn but IMHO the horn has nothing to do with Mort.
Roland would have understood.
It is true Jack Mort would not have the mentality of a Gunslinger, so I see where maybe he shouldn't have been brought through the door, but being a fan of 'out of the box' thinking, I am not willing to abandon the theory entirely.I don't think Jack Mort could be part of any kind of true ka-tet. He is weak and gutless. I think of Mort as a door to Jake.Well, Jack Mort was the third door. The first two doors he took people out of, the third door he went into the mind of Jack, the psycho. What if in other loops he decided not to save Jake from being shoved into traffic by mort, but instead, brought him through the door. I ask this because Jake didn't exactly become part of the group the same way that Eddie and Susannah did, and something must have happened for the horn to finally have made it into his possession.What do you mean by 'ended up with Jack Mort'? You mean making a ka-tet with him?!
I am sorry if I misunderstood you.
Anyway I am sure the loops aren't the same.
I wish I could read his first loop so that I could compare it to his last loop to see how different they were, if they were different at all. I am consumed with the idea that he did something on his last loop that redeemed himself, and brought him the horn. Consumed I tell you.
My other big mystery here is why the MIB allowed himself to be caught at the end of the first book. My only guess is that he needed to get Jake out of the picture and didn't foresee him coming back; however, it may mean nothing.
1. Let us know how you think about it in the future.1. It is true Jack Mort would not have the mentality of a Gunslinger, so I see where maybe he shouldn't have been brought through the door, but being a fan of 'out of the box' thinking, I am not willing to abandon the theory entirely.I don't think Jack Mort could be part of any kind of true ka-tet. He is weak and gutless. I think of Mort as a door to Jake.Well, Jack Mort was the third door. The first two doors he took people out of, the third door he went into the mind of Jack, the psycho. What if in other loops he decided not to save Jake from being shoved into traffic by mort, but instead, brought him through the door. I ask this because Jake didn't exactly become part of the group the same way that Eddie and Susannah did, and something must have happened for the horn to finally have made it into his possession.What do you mean by 'ended up with Jack Mort'? You mean making a ka-tet with him?!
I am sorry if I misunderstood you.
Anyway I am sure the loops aren't the same.
2. I wish I could read his first loop so that I could compare it to his last loop to see how different they were, if they were different at all. I am consumed with the idea that he did something on his last loop that redeemed himself, and brought him the horn. Consumed I tell you.
3. My other big mystery here is why the MIB allowed himself to be caught at the end of the first book. My only guess is that he needed to get Jake out of the picture and didn't foresee him coming back; however, it may mean nothing.
2. I think a simple reread can get you closer to those loops.
3. Well I think you are right. On the one hand MIB wanted to break Roland and let's face it he built a really good trap.
On the other hand I think he loved playing. Having a long discussion with Roland and making him believe that he is dead was a piece of cherry cake for him.
Roland would have understood.
From the use of 'Redemption' in the Waste Land, I've gotta say that whatever Roland did to redeem himself happened in the Waste Land, or at least started there.
I'm unfamiliar with the use of Redemption in this book? It's been a while.
I've always felt like Roland is becoming more and more human with each loop, hence every loop he becomes closer to finishing his quest once and for all, be it my getting something he can use or another member of the ka-tet that can help him.
Now that I worded it, it sounds like unlocking achievements in a video game.
"So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King, obey the King, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. But what if your father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another."
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
