Irony vs Coincidence

[jayson]

Why is it that the term ironic is so often used to describe something that is not ironic, but coincidental?

Please note, I am not trying to pick on anyone's posts from the "death is such irony" thread. I've already done so in that thread

It has come up this weekend because I have been watching a lot of sports and at least four times I have heard four different announcers state that four different situations were ironic, when they were not. They were merely coincidental. For example, it was pointed out that one of the umpires in the final game at Shea Stadium is the son of a man who was one of the umpires in the first ever game at Shea Stadium. It's an interesting coincidence, but it is not at all ironic.

I don't even want to get started on the Alanis Morisette false definition of irony as that is another matter altogether, but as we all know, the only irony in that song is that none of her examples were ironic at all. Rain on your wedding day? Unless you are meteorologist and should have known better, that's not ironic. It's just a bummer.

[cozener]

I don't come across that as often as I come across people misunderstanding the use of "ironic" in regards to sarcasm.

But actually I looked it up and 'ironic' does mean coincidental. The word has a few definitions. But apparently Ms. Mourisette is using it correctly.

[Matt]

I heard someone say the Alanis song was supposed to be ironic because nothing she talked about was.

Personally, I stay away from the term because I have never really understood the definition.

I think my ex being pissed that the kids don't exactly want to hang out with her after she ignored them her whole life is ironic.

[Brice]

Yes, but I believe those definitions are more modern ones and mostly because of people's lack of understanding and misuse of the word. Because those people couldn't quite grasp the meaning we just said....oh, sure that's the definition too then.

[pathoftheturtle]

Irony is when the actual meaning is the opposite of the literal meaning. This can be streched to encompass any fact which is opposite to one's expectations. A very liberal usage, to be sure, but I think that that is the origin of the tendency in question.

[jayson]

I don't come across that as often as I come across people misunderstanding the use of "ironic" in regards to sarcasm.

But actually I looked it up and 'ironic' does mean coincidental. The word has a few definitions. But apparently Ms. Mourisette is using it correctly.

Where did you find that definition Coz, because coincidental does not appear in any definitions of the word that I have found.

According to the online Merriam/Webster dictionary...

Irony

http://www.bartleby.com/61/61/I0236100.html

1a. The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning. b. An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning. c. A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect.

2a. Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain). b. An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity.

3. Dramatic irony.

4. Socratic irony.

Coincidence

http://www.bartleby.com/61/58/C0465800.html

1. The state or fact of occupying the same relative position or area in space.

2. A sequence of events that although accidental seems to have been planned or arranged.

---------
Additionally, according to Webster's online dictionary...

http://www.websters-online-dictionar...finition/irony

Misuse of the term "irony"

"Ironic" is often misused in common speech instead of the term "coincidental": "Oh, isn't that ironic! I was just about to call you!" Thus, one of Alanis Morissette's most famous songs, "Ironic", portrays a series of unfortunate or unusual events, trivial oddities that the singer presents to the listener with the refrain "isn't it ironic, don't you think?". Various enthusiastic Internet writers have taken it upon themselves to prove at great length that Morissette's examples meet the definition of irony or that they do not, which itself could be interpreted as ironic, to an observer aware of Alanis Morissette's subtext (because one would expect the examples to be ironic, thus the fact that they are not could be considered itself ironic). [1], [1]

[Matt]

This can be streched to encompass any fact which is opposite to one's expectations

So my example was irony?

[Brice]

The OED definition:








irony
/irni/

• noun (pl. ironies) 1 the expression of meaning through the use of language which normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous effect. 2 a state of affairs that appears perversely contrary to what one expects.

— ORIGIN Greek eironeia ‘simulated ignorance’

[cozener]

I got it from dictionary.com

[jayson]

Interesting. When I go there, and use the "find" function (CTRL-F) it doesn't show the word "coincidence" as appearing on the page at all.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irony

[cozener]

I didn't look up irony. I looked up ironic. (I was thinking about the song)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ironic

btw...I'm not a champion of this particular definition. I don't use it this way. I'm just pointing out that it is, currently, an acceptable way to use the word.

[jayson]

Thanks Coz.

Incidentally, that page also points out the argument that irony and coincidence are not synonymous. Is that a coincidence or is it irony?

[Daghain]

Maybe it's an ironic coincidence.

[Matt]

There are no coincidences

[MrQuint]

I find it ironic that a group of old celibate men in Rome jealously restrict the amount of sex everyone else is allowed to have to the absolute minimum.

Or is that a coincidence?

Or is that neither?

[jayson]

I think it qualifies as irony.

At least the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't care how much/little sex any of us have.

[Brice]

I think it qualifies as irony.

At least the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't care how much/little sex any of us have.

Yes, he does. There is a reason for all those noodley appendages, ya' know.?

...and yes, that's irony.

[Odetta]

I'd go for irony as well.

[cozener]

Yeah but thats easy for the Flying Spaghetti Monster as he can rub up against anyone with his noodly appendage at will and without their knowledge.

[Matt]

Nobody tells me how much sex I can have.

[jayson]

Well, nobody except Dora.

[Matt]

She's almost always up for it.

[Darkthoughts]

It's not ironic that Matt has derailed the thread.

[jayson]

It's not ironic that Matt has derailed the thread.

Or that it's about sex.

[Darkthoughts]

Also meant to post:

Encarta World Dictionary :

Irony 1. Humour based on opposites a type of humour based on using words to suggest the opposite of their literal meaning.
2. Sth Humourous based on contradiction sth said or written that uses sardonic humour.
3. Incongruity incongruity between what actually happens and what might be expected to happen, especially when this disparity seems absurd or laughable.
4. Incongruous thing sth that happens that is incongruous with what might be expected to happen.
5. Dramatic Irony
6. Socratic Irony.