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Thread: Roland - General discussion

  1. #26
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    I do and I believe that may be the the point of the story after all is said and done.

    Each of us is challenged in our lives with something like this. The urge/need to do something that is no good for us but we still do it because we do not have the power to break free.

    The story illustrates, to me, that breaking free is sometimes one of the best things a person can do for themselves.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Matt you heartless bastard, you can't find it in you to love Roland??
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    This from the Crimson King
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Sometimes I really don't know if you are serious or not.
    How can you not know that I'm serious?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  5. #30
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daghain View Post
    I said it didn't make sense to me, only because I don't think there's anything to forgive him for.
    except his unbearable penchant for demagogy. I can forgive it, though, after everything he has done.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  6. #31
    Gunslinger Apprentice She-Oy is on a distinguished road She-Oy's Avatar

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    I don't really think it's my place to forgive Roland. He didn't really ever do anything to me personally...the other characters and himself maybe.

    I think the big thing is for Roland to forgive himself, that's his job, not ours.
    It's peanut butter jelly time!

  7. #32
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    this is very true, from a point of view, but I understand the question a little differently. You see, when a book is as important as the DT series, it becomes part of our lives, and the characters parts of our soul. So, whatever they do, they do to us. They hurt us when, after we come to love them, they hurt others; they make us happy or unhappy; so it ultimately may be up to us to forgive or not forgive them.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  8. #33
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    I think its hard to say. We don't live in a world like Roland's where the way of the gun is acceptable, so some of the consequences of Roland's actions are more severe than we are used to personally.

    I guess if you feel Roland acted for the greater good, then you can forgive him because the things he did were a means to an end.

    I agree with She-oy too though. If he could forgive himself he wouldn't require our forgiveness...or to put that another way - Roland is so hard on himself that no-ones forgiveness but his own would be enough to give him peace I think.

  9. #34
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    yes, but here you focus on him, too, and I believe Nikolett was going to find out more about us rather than whether or not Roland deserved/needed forgiveness.

    For example, I just thought that if the question was, "can you justify all Roland's actions to yourself", my answer would be definitely "no". But the question was whether or not I could forgive him, and this is an altogether different story.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    yes, but here you focus on him, too, and I believe Nikolett was going to find out more about us rather than whether or not Roland deserved/needed forgiveness.
    Yeah, I think she is still trying to emotionally and mentally digest my answer..
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Surely you contradict yourself there? If you don't feel Roland deserves forgiveness - according to your personal ethics or definition of the term forgiveness - then how can you say whether or not you forgive him?

    I know I'm probably being too literal about this compared to where you're coming from - but can you define your point in another way as to make it clearer to this pedantic nature of mine?

  12. #37
    Gunslinger Apprentice She-Oy is on a distinguished road She-Oy's Avatar

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    In that case, yes, I could forgive him. If Jake was me, meaning if Roland had dropped me, I would have forgiven him. But I'm that kind of person. I can forgive just about anyone...doesn't mean I don't learn, just means I can make peace without hatred...which is something Roland obviously can't do.

    Anger eats me alive and I can't stand to be that way. For him, it was just a way of life and a driving force at that.
    It's peanut butter jelly time!

  13. #38
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Darkthoughts: as I understand it, justifying someone's actions is a rational act based on justice (sorry for the tautology); the one who does the act has to be fair. Forgiving is an irrational act, rooting in heart, involving love; the one who does it has to be merciful. Forgiveness is always a small miracle, an interruption of the dreary chain of deeds and retributions. As Heather said:
    If Jake was me, meaning if Roland had dropped me, I would have forgiven him.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. #39
    Gunslinger Apprentice Chassit is on a distinguished road Chassit's Avatar

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    I think I could forgive him

    XIX
    "See the TURTLE of enormous girth,
    On his shell he holds the earth.
    If you want to run and play,
    Come along the BEAM today."

    NFA JJG 42-95

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chassit View Post
    I think I could forgive him

    XIX
    And here is our first absolutely straight answer.

    Roland would have understood.

  16. #41
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by She-Oy View Post
    1. I don't really think it's my place to forgive Roland.
    2. He didn't really ever do anything to me personally...the other characters and himself maybe.

    3. I think the big thing is for Roland to forgive himself, that's his job, not ours.
    1. "God will forgive me. It's his job." - by Heinrich Heine

    2. I see your point but I agree with Jean. Lots of things happen to this world and most of them don't do anything to us but they still touch our lives. And they can wake up so many feelings inside us.

    3. Wise. I think the hardest thing is to forgive us but I don't think it would be a part of our job. (It's possible you didn't want to say this.) There are things we really can't forgive ourselves but we need to be able to live with them.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Oh ok, I understand what you're saying Jean. I don't think I grasped it at first because I couldn't forgive someone if I was unable to justify (to myself) their actions.

    However, thats also a bit of a paradox because I think if you love someone or care very deeply for them, you find ways to justify the unjust because you want to forgive them.

  18. #43
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Oh ok, I understand what you're saying Jean. I don't think I grasped it at first because I couldn't forgive someone if I was unable to justify (to myself) their actions.

    However, thats also a bit of a paradox because I think if you love someone or care very deeply for them, you find ways to justify the unjust because you want to forgive them.
    Exactly! But we shouldn't be afraid of paradoxes, such is the dialectic of life.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  19. #44
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    I think one of the nicest feelings of the world is forgiveness.

    Roland would have understood.

  20. #45
    Along the Path of the Beam Valkyrie is on a distinguished road Valkyrie's Avatar

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    I don't think its my place to forgive him. I think that if he wanted anyone's forgiveness, it would be Jake's first and foremost, followed by the rest of the ka-tet. Our forgiveness would mean zero to him.

  21. #46
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Yes... there is a lot in what you say Valkyrie but we often forgive people who don't really need our forgiveness. There are so many feelings that are lost in the big universe but.. maybe they are still important.
    It's possible they are not important to the ones we feel them for.. but to ourselves.

    Roland would have understood.

  22. #47
    Gunslinger Apprentice She-Oy is on a distinguished road She-Oy's Avatar

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    I am seeing Letti's point full on now.
    And what she says is exactly WHY I tend to forgive. It's more for me than it is the other person. I hate to hold grudges, it makes me physically ill sometimes...to just let it go, forgive, move on...it's cathartic.
    It's peanut butter jelly time!

  23. #48
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chassit View Post
    I think I could forgive him

    XIX
    And here is our first absolutely straight answer.
    I thought mine was a pretty straight answer.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  24. #49
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by She-Oy View Post
    I am seeing Letti's point full on now.
    And what she says is exactly WHY I tend to forgive. It's more for me than it is the other person. I hate to hold grudges, it makes me physically ill sometimes...to just let it go, forgive, move on...it's cathartic.
    You must be a valuable soul.

    Roland would have understood.

  25. #50
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Chassit View Post
    I think I could forgive him

    XIX
    And here is our first absolutely straight answer.
    I thought mine was a pretty straight answer.
    Yeah, sorry - but yours was way longer.

    Roland would have understood.

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