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Thread: The Talisman / Black House

  1. #276
    Traveler Sid is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by pol View Post
    I loved The Talisman...it has a great feel of adventure, more epic than Black House which was a much different book.

    I don't think that the connections to the Tower in The Talisman were intentional, in fact I have read that it was really King's first attempt at toying with concepts that would later riddle the Tower books. Whereas the connections in Black House were obviously intentional, as this book was written specifically to tie in with the Tower. Both books are great, just different feels and the writing style in Black House, particularly the beginning, is a bit hard to get used to.
    I agree completely.

    I have always been frustrated that Black House was simply a book to tie Talisman into the Dark Tower series.

    I lot of it doesn't make sense to me. For example:

    Spoiler:

    The introduction of the 'twinners' in the Dark Tower series. Okay, the Tower in our world has a twinner, a rose. That's well and good, except when Jack first visits the Dark Tower universe in Black House he notices it's a different world- it's not a 'territory' in the sense that you don't flip into it, and none of their belongings change. Which makes sense considering Roland and the katet never experienced twinners and their items changing when they went to different worlds.

    Not to mention the fact that the Talisman is supposed the be the 'axis' of all the worlds, like Jack. Unique amongst all the different worlds, and existing in each of them...which sounds a lot like the Dark Tower, except, as noted above- it already has a twinner (the rose).

    There's also Roland and King himself between twinners. I...I'm still not sure what to say to that exactly.


    There were other issues I had. I think you're spot on that the Dark Tower and the Talisman were drawn from the same roots... they share several themes and ideas, but I don't think that makes them compatible.

  2. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sid View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pol View Post
    I loved The Talisman...it has a great feel of adventure, more epic than Black House which was a much different book.

    I don't think that the connections to the Tower in The Talisman were intentional, in fact I have read that it was really King's first attempt at toying with concepts that would later riddle the Tower books. Whereas the connections in Black House were obviously intentional, as this book was written specifically to tie in with the Tower. Both books are great, just different feels and the writing style in Black House, particularly the beginning, is a bit hard to get used to.
    I agree completely.

    I have always been frustrated that Black House was simply a book to tie Talisman into the Dark Tower series.

    I lot of it doesn't make sense to me. For example:

    Spoiler:

    The introduction of the 'twinners' in the Dark Tower series. Okay, the Tower in our world has a twinner, a rose. That's well and good, except when Jack first visits the Dark Tower universe in Black House he notices it's a different world- it's not a 'territory' in the sense that you don't flip into it, and none of their belongings change. Which makes sense considering Roland and the katet never experienced twinners and their items changing when they went to different worlds.

    Not to mention the fact that the Talisman is supposed the be the 'axis' of all the worlds, like Jack. Unique amongst all the different worlds, and existing in each of them...which sounds a lot like the Dark Tower, except, as noted above- it already has a twinner (the rose).

    There's also Roland and King himself between twinners. I...I'm still not sure what to say to that exactly.


    There were other issues I had. I think you're spot on that the Dark Tower and the Talisman were drawn from the same roots... they share several themes and ideas, but I don't think that makes them compatible.
    You both make some very valid points and one's that have troubled me as well. In the end, I chalked it up as a "Failed experiment" though BH is one of my favorite King books. I think King even cops to it as well by stating that all the other DT related books were "Red Herring's" except for "Insomnia" in DTVII. In the end it was kind of a shame for the constant reader, but "Shit Happens"!!
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  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin1958 View Post
    You both make some very valid points and one's that have troubled me as well. In the end, I chalked it up as a "Failed experiment" though BH is one of my favorite King books. I think King even cops to it as well by stating that all the other DT related books were "Red Herring's" except for "Insomnia" in DTVII. In the end it was kind of a shame for the constant reader, but "Shit Happens"!!
    I thought Insomnia was included in that because
    Spoiler:
    Roland refused to read it or hear about what was in the book.


    As far as Sid's comments, the territories stories don't really fit into the DT universe, but they overlap. I look at it as the territory stories are on the other side of the tower from Roland's stories, and in Black House they sort of overlap.

    I'd really like to see another Jack Sawyer story, I hope King and Straub write another. Black House was a great book, I love that audio book, especially what the narrator does with Uncle Henry.

  4. #279
    Traveler Sid is on a distinguished road

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    [QUOTE=mtdman;666949]
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin1958 View Post

    As far as Sid's comments, the territories stories don't really fit into the DT universe, but they overlap. I look at it as the territory stories are on the other side of the tower from Roland's stories, and in Black House they sort of overlap.

    I'd really like to see another Jack Sawyer story, I hope King and Straub write another. Black House was a great book, I love that audio book, especially what the narrator does with Uncle Henry.

    I wish that was the case, but:

    Spoiler:

    Father Callaghan joins the Katet in the...fifth? Dark Tower novel, and when he recounts his story of what happened after Salem's Lot, he recounts how he would flip between territories, and unlike Jack in the Talisman, he could flip into *several* different territories.


    King did want to reconcile the two, it would seem.

    (There's also the fact that Wolf's twinner appears to be in the Stand)

    As for the third Talisman novel, there's been quotes from Straub (and King I believe) about how they've been planning on getting together within the past couple of years to write it.

    Most speculation, to my regret, thinks it'll be a 'Dark Tower VIII' book...

    I'm not a *huge* fan of the Dark Tower series. It's not bad, but...the later novels I didn't enjoy nearly as much, especially once King started to try and combine everything and wrote himself into the book.

    I remember in his letters to the 'Constant Reader' in the early novels, he thought the series would be 9+ novels long.

    In...VII? I think, he writes how he encountered a fan with cancer, and she swore she wouldn't tell a soul...but asked him to reveal how it would end, as she wouldn't be alive to read the last books herself. King says in his letter that he wanted to tell her, but didn't know...as he hadn't written it yet.

    I suspect that's why the last couple of novels feel so rushed...for better or worse.

  5. #280
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    In response to your spoiler:

    Spoiler:
    I always saw those alternate realities that Callahan talks about, his 'highways in hiding', were different levels of the tower. Not The Territories that Jack flipped in and out of. Like Jake says, there are other worlds than these. And, the territories that Jack flipped to might just have been other levels of the tower. Who knows? But they don't have to match up exactly and be explained completely. That's what magic and imagination are for.

  6. #281
    Fundraiser Emeritus Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mtdman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Merlin1958 View Post
    You both make some very valid points and one's that have troubled me as well. In the end, I chalked it up as a "Failed experiment" though BH is one of my favorite King books. I think King even cops to it as well by stating that all the other DT related books were "Red Herring's" except for "Insomnia" in DTVII. In the end it was kind of a shame for the constant reader, but "Shit Happens"!!
    I thought Insomnia was included in that because
    Spoiler:
    Roland refused to read it or hear about what was in the book.


    As far as Sid's comments, the territories stories don't really fit into the DT universe, but they overlap. I look at it as the territory stories are on the other side of the tower from Roland's stories, and in Black House they sort of overlap.

    I'd really like to see another Jack Sawyer story, I hope King and Straub write another. Black House was a great book, I love that audio book, especially what the narrator does with Uncle Henry.
    Just because he refused to read it didn't change the fact that Insomnia was the only related DT book that was deemed valid.

    It bothers me to no end that King chose to "write out" the story in BH from the DT series as it was so rich in DT story. But like I said before, I have chalked it up to a failed experiment. Sad though!!
    The Evil Empire!!


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  7. #282
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    It bothers me to no end that King chose to "write out" the story in BH from the DT series as it was so rich in DT story. But like I said before, I have chalked it up to a failed experiment. Sad though!!
    I dont think Black House was written out from the Dark Tower series. Indeed, Eddie see's Jack's confrontation with Munshun in a vision from the Rose in book 5:

    He saw four men rescue a little boy from a monster whose entire head seemed to consist of a single eye.

  8. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tik View Post
    It bothers me to no end that King chose to "write out" the story in BH from the DT series as it was so rich in DT story. But like I said before, I have chalked it up to a failed experiment. Sad though!!
    I dont think Black House was written out from the Dark Tower series. Indeed, Eddie see's Jack's confrontation with Munshun in a vision from the Rose in book 5:

    He saw four men rescue a little boy from a monster whose entire head seemed to consist of a single eye.
    Yeah, I don't have a quote available, but I didtinctly recall the part in DT VII when the calvin's message is delivered to Roland that all the "DT Related books" were deemed red-herring's except "Insomnia". I remember it clearly since I was so disappointed!!
    The Evil Empire!!


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  9. #284
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    Yeah, I don't have a quote available, but I didtinctly recall the part in DT VII when the calvin's message is delivered to Roland that all the "DT Related books" were deemed red-herring's except "Insomnia". I remember it clearly since I was so disappointed!!
    The quote is here:

    "But one thing that they are in agreement about is that King's references to the Dark Tower are almost always masked, and sometimes mean nothing at all."
    This is perfectly true but doesn't mean the book is thrown out of continuity. Rose Madder, for example, has a fair few DT references in it but ultimately they meant nothing to Roland's quest. The events in Rose Madder still happened though, it's just that they weren't important to the quest. The same can be said for other books - not all the details will be important to Roland specifically, but they still happened.

    Also remember that the Tet corperation say this in the year 1999. They dont talk about Black House at all because it hasn't even been published yet (it's published in 2001).

  10. #285
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    I don't think that Insomnia was tagged as the only relevant book. IIRC they brought that book up specifically because
    Spoiler:
    both Roland and the Crimson King are mentioned by name.
    Not because the Insomnia story was relevant and the others are not.

  11. #286
    Along the Path of the Beam costanza will become famous soon enough

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    I don't think it's mentioned anywhere but the part near the end where Malshun grabs Ty. He says there's a young fellow in upstate New York who shows great promise, referring to a replacement for Burny. I can't even think of another story that takes place in upstate NY. Plenty about NYC for sure.

    I guess it doesn't really matter but it's something my brain picked up on. Anybody?

  12. #287
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    The Losers Club podcast episode on The Talisman is out:

    https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the...st/e/54082754/
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