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Thread: What would Roland's salvation be?

  1. #176
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    It's pretty deep.
    When a false religious leader turns the people against you, letting them go ahead and martyr you certainly is the Christian thing to do.
    Plus, look at The Stand.
    On the other hand, Roland doesn't even go back in time far enough to actually revisit Tull. It would be much easier to tell if his salvation is what the DT cycle is really about if it had turned out that he was never in fact needed to protect reality, instead of it turning out that he was.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    It's pretty deep.
    When a false religious leader turns the people against you, letting them go ahead and martyr you certainly is the Christian thing to do.
    Plus, look at The Stand.
    On the other hand, Roland doesn't even go back in time far enough to actually revisit Tull. It would be much easier to tell if his salvation is what the DT cycle is really about if it had turned out that he was never in fact needed to protect reality, instead of it turning out that he was.
    Bear with me here, but maybe I am not remembering correctly. Tull occurs after "The Man in Black fled and......." right? Maybe I need to be "schooled" again?

  3. #178
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    No. After that, Roland meets Brown, and then he tells Brown the story of what he did before that -- the story of Tull.

  4. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    No. After that, Roland meets Brown, and then he tells Brown the story of what he did before that -- the story of Tull.
    Well then, in my mind, anything that occur's AFTER "The Man in Black......" are the only events in "play" as far as the cycle goes!!!!! JMHO


    Spoiler:
    Obviously, because he is not afforded and opportunity to choose another path, yes? And then, by definition (or whatever) cannot be considered in his "salvation" as it apply's to the TDT cycle, yes?

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    That's not as easy to answer. The relationship of free will to salvation is a subject of debate, as is the relationship of time travel to free will. "The Dark Tower cycle" can also simply refer to the series of books. I'm not sure about the rules exactly. Normally, salvation does not require time travel, at least not in a literal sense.

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    It's pretty deep.
    When a false religious leader turns the people against you, letting them go ahead and martyr you certainly is the Christian thing to do.
    Plus, look at The Stand.
    precisely

    On the other hand, Roland doesn't even go back in time far enough to actually revisit Tull.
    maybe next time?

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
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  7. #182
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    Well, that implies there's something else which he needs to do differently this time in order to qualify for the opportunity to do that differently. But what's the point in that if what he does differently this time is something that he'll never get to again because he has to die first?

    Isn't it just as likely that he should change something even further back in his past so that he can avoid Tull altogether?

    And if Roland does die and go to heaven somewhere on the road, what happens to the rest of the multiverse? Would someone else have to take his place? Or does the fate of Mid-World not really matter?

  8. #183
    Fundraiser Emeritus Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958 has a reputation beyond repute Merlin1958's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    That's not as easy to answer. The relationship of free will to salvation is a subject of debate, as is the relationship of time travel to free will. "The Dark Tower cycle" can also simply refer to the series of books. I'm not sure about the rules exactly. Normally, salvation does not require time travel, at least not in a literal sense.
    Not really in a position this moment to reply in detail. Will revisit, but I think I know where you're going with the TT/FW analysis. I prefer to apply "logic" (my German sensibilities) to the problem and simply say that the "cycle will always begin in the "Desert in The Gunslinger". Therefore, only the events that occur thereafter come into play. Especially if you apply any creedence to my "Pet Theory" as stated earlier in this thread. For some reason, the more we explore this topic, the better I feel about my little theory. of course, that is just mho and open to others interpetations and postulates.

    Oh, fuck it. Here I go!!! Physics teaches us that there is "order" and design to the universe. Therefore, there has to be not only a purpose to Roland's "loops" (Yes, as postulated in my "Pet Theory) as well as the "Exisitential" (man, my spelling sucks today!!) So, No Jean. "not maybe next time" b/c he will always revert to the "Desert" and have to relive the events from then on possibly with the influence of Mankind's evolution.

    To me, somehow Roland's "number came up" and he was chosen by Gan to perform a higher service to the multi-verse (as stated in "Insomnia"). Now, I suppose "Path" will say that the inclusion of a diety belies order, design and rules, but I would say that some, if not all would still have to apply in even a diety's case. Maybe that's just my "Hun Heritage" talking, but its my story and I'm sticking to it!!!!

    This is gonna be a GOOD ONE!!!! LOL LOL LOL I can almost already hear your replies!!!! LOL LOL LOL

  9. #184
    Gunslinger Apprentice RandyinAK will become famous soon enough RandyinAK's Avatar

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    I'm going to re-read the last half of DT7 again, like a said in an earlier post, but until then, I think that door at the top of the tower will be rolands final door. And whatever incident he finally finds that he can't shoot his way out of or ka doesn't go his way, when it's time for the lights to go out he will see that door and turn the knob that opens into the path that goes to the clearing...... It will be clear to him at that point his time has come and he may see those like Eddie, Jake, Oy and many others waiting for him in the clearing.

    On another note, Susannah should not have taken Rolands other gun with her. Yes that should have either followed jake or remained in his gunna while the other was on his hip.
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  10. #185
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    Merlin, I'm not really sure what physics principle you think it is that draws Roland always to "The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed." I think it's just Stephen King's writing.

    But is this a different thread?

    Jean?

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Merlin, I'm not really sure what physics principle you think it is that draws Roland always to "The man in black fled across the desert and the gunslinger followed." I think it's just Stephen King's writing.

    But is this a different thread?

    Jean?
    It's the same thread and still on topic. I guess what I was trying to say is that even "Fictional" physics would prevail. I realize that may sound like an oxymoron, but if you're willing to accept "King's World, then IMO the "physics" would be adjusted accordingly. Make any sense?

    Bottom line I suppose is there are always applicable "rules"

  12. #187
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    I'm just trying to remember if there was a thread already about why he returns to that specific moment.

    But I would also like to know "Who wrote the rule that says that there must always be rules, and was there already a rule that said that that rule had to be written?" if that, too, is still on-topic.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    I'm just trying to remember if there was a thread already about why he returns to that specific moment.

    But I would also like to know "Who wrote the rule that says that there must always be rules, and was there already a rule that said that that rule had to be written?" if that, too, is still on-topic.
    Path, I was not trying to be a smart ass or anything. I just realized that I did not properly explain my opinion (I still may not have!! LOL). Like I said, that's just "my take" on the subject.

    Arguing with you is a fun & interesting challenge, but offensively arguing with you is a whole other matter. I very much respect your opinion. Beside's, I'm now the "kinder, gentler, Merlin"!!! LOL LOL LOL


    Spoiler:
    Of course, you may have just been kidding with me, in which case, kindly disregard the above!! LOL

  14. #189
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    I don't know what you're talking about. Was not offended. Was not trying to kid. Pretty straightforward post, really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    I don't know what you're talking about. Was not offended. Was not trying to kid. Pretty straightforward post, really.
    OK, I mis-read. My bad.

    In that case, I guess every individual reader decides? Whatever works for them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post

    Jean?
    will be back next Tuesday

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    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  17. #192
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    Some text possibly relevant to the present turn of this discussion --

    "...'"The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed." The rest might have been puff and blow, but man, that was clean.' ...
    'What I liked,' King said, 'was how the story seemed to be going backward. From a purely technical standpoint, it was very interesting. I start with you in the desert, then slip back a notch to you meeting Brown and Zoltan. Zoltan was named after a folk-singer and guitarist I knew at the University of Maine, by the way. Anyway, from the dweller's hut, the story slips back another notch to you coming into the town of Tull ... named after a rock group --'
    'Jethro Tull,' Eddie said, 'Goddam of course! ...'
    ...
    'Anyway, from Roland coming into Tull, the story slips back another notch to tell how Nort, the weed-eater, died and was resurrected by Walter. You see what buzzed me about it, don't you? The early part of it was all told in reverse gear. It was bass-ackwards.'
    Roland had no interest in the technical aspects that seemed to so fascinate King: this was his life they were talking about, after all, his life, and to him it had all been moving forward. At least until he'd reached the Western Sea, and the doors through which he'd drawn his traveling companions."

    -- Song of Susannah

  18. #193
    Traveler NickP will become famous soon enough

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    I'd like to think that when (if?) Roland reaches the Clearing, he'll find all his past ka-mates and family waiting for him.

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    Well, for what it's worth, I'd like to think that we all will.

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    We will.

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    For me he would never see what is at the top of the Tower because his quest was NEVER to enter it but to save it. As he chases the Man in Black he comes to understand somehow, with the horn playing some part in that understanding, that he has already saved the Tower. He doesn't drop Jake, joins up with Eddie and Suzz, they make their way to the Calle where they all settle and live happily ever after. Yea I know corny but that is the beauty of the ending, I can make it what ever I want

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Well, that implies there's something else which he needs to do differently this time in order to qualify for the opportunity to do that differently. But what's the point in that if what he does differently this time is something that he'll never get to again because he has to die first?

    Isn't it just as likely that he should change something even further back in his past so that he can avoid Tull altogether?

    And if Roland does die and go to heaven somewhere on the road, what happens to the rest of the multiverse? Would someone else have to take his place? Or does the fate of Mid-World not really matter?
    As to the fate of Mid-World, I don't think it matters. All the events in the universe, the Dark Tower's saving, etc are all reversed by Gan simply to teach Roland something. It seems that, to Gan, whatever Roland must learn is more important than any world. I have a tendency to agree with the above post, in that I don't think Roland was meant to breach the tower, but to save it. There are many times when Roland's life as a gunslinger is referred to one of death, and I don't think he can ever be expected to reach salvation until he embraces life over death. That's why I believe the rose is such a prominent figure, as a flower in bloom represents new life and can be seen as an anti-symbol of death. In my opinion, this change requires him to make multiple small and large decisions (such as picking of the horn and not letting Jake fall) that may go against all of his teaching as a gunslinger, but allow him to embrace his humanity.
    "No two persons ever read the same book." - Edmund Wilson

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sovereign View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Well, that implies there's something else which he needs to do differently this time in order to qualify for the opportunity to do that differently. But what's the point in that if what he does differently this time is something that he'll never get to again because he has to die first?

    Isn't it just as likely that he should change something even further back in his past so that he can avoid Tull altogether?

    And if Roland does die and go to heaven somewhere on the road, what happens to the rest of the multiverse? Would someone else have to take his place? Or does the fate of Mid-World not really matter?
    As to the fate of Mid-World, I don't think it matters. All the events in the universe, the Dark Tower's saving, etc are all reversed by Gan simply to teach Roland something. It seems that, to Gan, whatever Roland must learn is more important than any world. I have a tendency to agree with the above post, in that I don't think Roland was meant to breach the tower, but to save it. There are many times when Roland's life as a gunslinger is referred to one of death, and I don't think he can ever be expected to reach salvation until he embraces life over death. That's why I believe the rose is such a prominent figure, as a flower in bloom represents new life and can be seen as an anti-symbol of death. In my opinion, this change requires him to make multiple small and large decisions (such as picking of the horn and not letting Jake fall) that may go against all of his teaching as a gunslinger, but allow him to embrace his humanity.
    IMO Roland is humanities representative in the quest for the tower. His growth and evolution are representative of humanities, growth and evolution. So, as the "world" goes, so goes, Roland and his quest, so to speak. He is a symbol/characterization for humanity, IMHO

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sovereign View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Well, that implies there's something else which he needs to do differently this time in order to qualify for the opportunity to do that differently. But what's the point in that if what he does differently this time is something that he'll never get to again because he has to die first?

    Isn't it just as likely that he should change something even further back in his past so that he can avoid Tull altogether?

    And if Roland does die and go to heaven somewhere on the road, what happens to the rest of the multiverse? Would someone else have to take his place? Or does the fate of Mid-World not really matter?
    As to the fate of Mid-World, I don't think it matters. All the events in the universe, the Dark Tower's saving, etc are all reversed by Gan simply to teach Roland something. It seems that, to Gan, whatever Roland must learn is more important than any world. I have a tendency to agree with the above post, in that I don't think Roland was meant to breach the tower, but to save it. There are many times when Roland's life as a gunslinger is referred to one of death, and I don't think he can ever be expected to reach salvation until he embraces life over death. That's why I believe the rose is such a prominent figure, as a flower in bloom represents new life and can be seen as an anti-symbol of death. In my opinion, this change requires him to make multiple small and large decisions (such as picking of the horn and not letting Jake fall) that may go against all of his teaching as a gunslinger, but allow him to embrace his humanity.
    IMO Roland is humanities representative in the quest for the tower. His growth and evolution are representative of humanities, growth and evolution. So, as the "world" goes, so goes, Roland and his quest, so to speak. He is a symbol/characterization for humanity, IMHO

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