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Thread: Roland's relationship with his mom... could he...??

  1. #51
    Gunslinger Apprentice Whitey Appleseed is on a distinguished road Whitey Appleseed's Avatar

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    That said, some additional ideas on Susan and Roland. There's an interesting phrase in W&G: She needed to see him at his right size, instead of the one her mind had created for him in her warm thoughts and warmer dreams. W&G/On the Drop/Chap VII/ Sec 6/p258

    First time or two through with Roland, I saw him as a giant--he could do no wrong--wadda ya mean he dropped Jake!--that kinda thing. Maybe that's a problem. Maybe if we didn't see him as a giant, a hero that can do no wrong.

    For instance, perhaps his fatal flaw is his inability to forgive Gabrielle, that leads, in part, to an obstacle to love. His old man talked to him, Steven spoke about many things over the whore’s bed to Roland. “About Roland’s mother, who was, perhaps, more sinned against than sinning.” W&G/Long After Moonset/Chap IV/Sec 1/p170

    An interesting phrase, from King Lear, fwiw, but why does Steven think such a thing? Wasn't he the one wronged?

    Later, on the Drop with Susan, during the blood kiss moment, Susan tells Roland: “If you really do love me, don’t let me dishonor myself. I’ve made a promise. Anything might come later, after that promise was fulfilled, I suppose…if you still wanted me…” wg/vii/9/270

    They kissed again and she stepped forward.

    “She was, at least for the moment, no longer her own mistress; she might consequently be his. He could do to her what Marten had done to his own mother, if that was his fancy.” Wg,vii/9/270
    “The thought broke his passion apart, turned it to coals that fell in a bright shower, winking out one by one in a dark bewilderment. His father’s acceptance.
    (I have known for two years)
    was in many ways the worst part of what had happened to him this year; how could he fall in love with this girl—any girl—in a world where such evils of the heart seemed necessary, and might even be repeated?”

    So he obviously saw Marten in himself, yet it didn't stop him. Ka, like a wind.

    I think it was interesting, in The Wolves of the Calla, that Roland tells Susan:
    spoiler


    Maybe the quote helps understand the custom. Maybe not. Shrug. Perhaps there's a message there, as well, for us, the readers. Like the first time through, I saw giants. They could do no wrong. Maybe, like Susan, we need to step back and as King wrote:

    "She needed to see him at his right size, instead of the one her mind had created for him in her warm thoughts and warmer dreams." W&G/On the Drop/Chap VII/ Sec 6/p258

    Anyway, I'll hazard it again, that there is some kind of doubling going on with Roland and Susan's actions, kinda like Marten and Gabrielle's. Are they exactly the same? No. Not saying that, but Roland did see himself as Marten. The question is, is his fear of love a contributing factor in his choice of the Dark Tower over a life with Susan:


    “Inside the ball, I was given a choice: Susan, and my life as her husband and father of the child she now carries…or the Tower. Roland wiped his face with a shaking hand. “I would choose Susan in an instant, if not for one thing: the Tower is crumbling, and if it falls, everything we know will be swept away…As for me, I choose the Tower.” W&g/x/beneath the demon moon/sec 10/p605

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ManOfWesternesse View Post
    And I got no sense of any Oedipal conflict there?
    Again, Oedipal conflicts aren't limited to sickos wanting to bang their mothers as Bruno put it.


    anyways, that was my second post. my first post wasn't like that.
    "So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the King, obey the King, obey your father, protect the innocent, defend the weak. But what if your father despises the King? What if the King massacres the innocent? It's too much. No matter what you do, you're forsaking one vow or another."

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    That's what she said.

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    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Appleseed View Post
    ...The question is, is his fear of love a contributing factor in his choice of the Dark Tower over a life with Susan:


    “Inside the ball, I was given a choice: Susan, and my life as her husband and father of the child she now carries…or the Tower. Roland wiped his face with a shaking hand. “I would choose Susan in an instant, if not for one thing: the Tower is crumbling, and if it falls, everything we know will be swept away…As for me, I choose the Tower.” W&g/x/beneath the demon moon/sec 10/p605
    For me, you've posed and answered the question right there.
    Roland chose the Tower because he had to, despite his love for Susan.
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    yep, I think so too. We so often answer our own questions don't we? yep, see ?

    The answer is within

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    Traveler nearlyprescient is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    I know that Roland is a gunslinger but why did he kill his mom? It never made sense to me.
    Gunslingers aren't perfect. They make mistakes too, especially since they have such heightened reflexes. Anytime you have fast reflexes, you run the risk of your brain not being able to keep up and properly identify threats, even with all of a Gunslinger's training.
    I think it also bears reminding that
    Spoiler:
    Roland and Cuthbert each shot Alain in the dark. Sure it was an accident but it just shows you that Gunslinger's aren't perfect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nearlyprescient View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    I know that Roland is a gunslinger but why did he kill his mom? It never made sense to me.
    Gunslingers aren't perfect. They make mistakes too, especially since they have such heightened reflexes. Anytime you have fast reflexes, you run the risk of your brain not being able to keep up and properly identify threats, even with all of a Gunslinger's training.
    I think it also bears reminding that
    Spoiler:
    Roland and Cuthbert each shot Alain in the dark. Sure it was an accident but it just shows you that Gunslinger's aren't perfect.
    Also, don't forget there was the glam of the wizard glass that contributed to Roland's misidentification and subsequent shooting of his mom.
    It'll take a lot more than words and guns,
    A whole lot more than riches and muscle.

    The hands of the many must join as one.
    And together we'll cross the river.

    Puscifer, "The Humbling River"


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    Somethings always bugged me when reading about Rolands mother and her affair with Marten....so I ask, what the hell was she thinking? Does anyone have any ideas as to why she would do that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doe View Post
    Somethings always bugged me when reading about Rolands mother and her affair with Marten....so I ask, what the hell was she thinking? Does anyone have any ideas as to why she would do that?
    They say the number one reason women cheat is because they are lacking an emotional connection. I can imagine that Roland's father was probably not they type to.... connect.... with women. She was probably lonely, and Marten took advantage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by haunted.lunchbox View Post
    They say the number one reason women cheat is because they are lacking an emotional connection. I can imagine that Roland's father was probably not they type to.... connect.... with women. She was probably lonely, and Marten took advantage.
    Although he loved her, I think you're right. I also think a large part of it was that he spent a lot of time on the trek and involved in a lot of other duties. She was lonely, as you say, and Marten could be very charming...

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    Along the Path of the Beam Susan Delgado is on a distinguished road Susan Delgado's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by fountain View Post
    Anyway Oedipus Complex doesn't have to mean that the kid wants to make love with their own mom or dad (of course it means that too).
    When little children are jealous of the parents... for example the little girl around the age of 4 sees that her dad hugs her mom with love. She can become jealous and she wishes if only she could be as important to his dad as his mom is and she would like to step into his mom's shoes. It's called Oedipus Complex (or Oedipus Conflict), too.

    I have no idea if Roland had it or not (psychologists say most of the children do more or less) but hsi parents weren't close to each other so I don't think he had the chance to be jealous.
    i sure as hell wanted to marry my dad when i was around kindergarten age. leaving him no choice i told him he must marry me when i grow up.

    back on topic; i dont remember the hard-on part when Roland entered the Tower but its been years that i have read DT7.
    From this you'll recognize me;

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    Quote Originally Posted by haunted.lunchbox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Doe View Post
    Somethings always bugged me when reading about Rolands mother and her affair with Marten....so I ask, what the hell was she thinking? Does anyone have any ideas as to why she would do that?
    They say the number one reason women cheat is because they are lacking an emotional connection. I can imagine that Roland's father was probably not they type to.... connect.... with women. She was probably lonely, and Marten took advantage.
    I suppose that sounds about right, Makes me hate her character though, what with her husband being such and important person within Gilead.

    In some respects, I enjoyed it when Roland killed her (In a not so sick and twisted sort of way)

  13. #63
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    Some folks said earlier in the thread that there was no proof of an Oedipus Complex in the story. I disagree. It is even directly referenced.

    This is from The Gunslinger, right at the end of Chapter 4 part X:

    "He wanted to tell his father not to forget his promise when the time came for Hax to step through the trap, but he was sensitive to his father’s moods. He put his fist to his forehead, crossed one foot in front of the other, and bowed. Then he went out, closing the door quickly. He suspected that what his father wanted now was to fuck. He was aware that his mother and father did that, and he was reasonably well informed as to how it was done, but the mental picture that always condensed with the thought made him feel both uneasy and oddly guilty. Some years later, Susan would tell him the story of Oedipus, and he would absorb it in quiet thoughtfulness , thinking of the odd and bloody triangle formed by his father, his mother, and by Marten—known in some quarters as Farson, the good man. Perhaps it was a quadrangle, if one wished to add himself."

    Of course, he is probably referencing the play, or some form of the actual story of Oedipus, but the complex is named after him for a very good reason. So, even if it might not be rooted in firm psychology(which, I got back and forth on Freud), I think that Roland was written to have at least somewhat of an Oedipus Complex.

    I also think that he still would have killed his mother, for all things serve the Tower. I have seen/heard of people doing horrible things to their parents over drugs and the pull of the Tower, even when he was young and didn't know what it was, was even more strong than that of the worst drugs for Roland.
    There's one hole in every revolution, large or small. And it's one word long.. people. No matter how big the idea they all stand under, people are small and weak and cheap and frightened. It's people that kill every revolution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OchrisO View Post
    I also think that he still would have killed his mother, for all things serve the Tower. I have seen/heard of people doing horrible things to their parents over drugs and the pull of the Tower, even when he was young and didn't know what it was, was even more strong than that of the worst drugs for Roland.
    But killing his mom didn't get him closer to the Tower, did it?

    Roland would have understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fountain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OchrisO View Post
    I also think that he still would have killed his mother, for all things serve the Tower. I have seen/heard of people doing horrible things to their parents over drugs and the pull of the Tower, even when he was young and didn't know what it was, was even more strong than that of the worst drugs for Roland.
    But killing his mom didn't get him closer to the Tower, did it?
    I feel like it did. One must kill off all the things they truly care about in order to properly follow and focus on such an intense obsession. She was one in a host of both direct and indirect destructions of things that he cared about on his path to the Tower.

    I think that there are times when Roland directly kills people or lets them die because they are standing between him and the Tower, but also times when fate/Ka/whatever endeavor to have him kill or see killed nearly everything he loves so that he will be on a very specific path to the Tower.
    There's one hole in every revolution, large or small. And it's one word long.. people. No matter how big the idea they all stand under, people are small and weak and cheap and frightened. It's people that kill every revolution.

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    Well put Chris, I hadn't really thought about it that way before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OchrisO View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by fountain View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by OchrisO View Post
    I also think that he still would have killed his mother, for all things serve the Tower. I have seen/heard of people doing horrible things to their parents over drugs and the pull of the Tower, even when he was young and didn't know what it was, was even more strong than that of the worst drugs for Roland.
    But killing his mom didn't get him closer to the Tower, did it?
    I feel like it did. One must kill off all the things they truly care about in order to properly follow and focus on such an intense obsession. She was one in a host of both direct and indirect destructions of things that he cared about on his path to the Tower.
    I must admit it's a damn good point.

    Roland would have understood.

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    interesting indeed; I've always thought it is just the other way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    interesting indeed; I've always thought it is just the other way
    "Just the other way"... ?

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    no he was tricked there was not a thing he could do and no mater how mad he was there was no hate
    "First comes the smiles, then lies. last is gunfire"
    - Roland Deschain, of Gilead

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitey Appleseed View Post
    That said, some additional ideas on Susan and Roland. There's an interesting phrase in W&G: She needed to see him at his right size, instead of the one her mind had created for him in her warm thoughts and warmer dreams. W&G/On the Drop/Chap VII/ Sec 6/p258

    First time or two through with Roland, I saw him as a giant--he could do no wrong--wadda ya mean he dropped Jake!--that kinda thing. Maybe that's a problem. Maybe if we didn't see him as a giant, a hero that can do no wrong.

    For instance, perhaps his fatal flaw is his inability to forgive Gabrielle, that leads, in part, to an obstacle to love. His old man talked to him, Steven spoke about many things over the whore’s bed to Roland. “About Roland’s mother, who was, perhaps, more sinned against than sinning.” W&G/Long After Moonset/Chap IV/Sec 1/p170

    An interesting phrase, from King Lear, fwiw, but why does Steven think such a thing? Wasn't he the one wronged?

    Later, on the Drop with Susan, during the blood kiss moment, Susan tells Roland: “If you really do love me, don’t let me dishonor myself. I’ve made a promise. Anything might come later, after that promise was fulfilled, I suppose…if you still wanted me…” wg/vii/9/270

    They kissed again and she stepped forward.

    “She was, at least for the moment, no longer her own mistress; she might consequently be his. He could do to her what Marten had done to his own mother, if that was his fancy.” Wg,vii/9/270
    “The thought broke his passion apart, turned it to coals that fell in a bright shower, winking out one by one in a dark bewilderment. His father’s acceptance.
    (I have known for two years)
    was in many ways the worst part of what had happened to him this year; how could he fall in love with this girl—any girl—in a world where such evils of the heart seemed necessary, and might even be repeated?”

    So he obviously saw Marten in himself, yet it didn't stop him. Ka, like a wind.

    I think it was interesting, in The Wolves of the Calla, that Roland tells Susan:
    spoiler


    Maybe the quote helps understand the custom. Maybe not. Shrug. Perhaps there's a message there, as well, for us, the readers. Like the first time through, I saw giants. They could do no wrong. Maybe, like Susan, we need to step back and as King wrote:

    "She needed to see him at his right size, instead of the one her mind had created for him in her warm thoughts and warmer dreams." W&G/On the Drop/Chap VII/ Sec 6/p258

    Anyway, I'll hazard it again, that there is some kind of doubling going on with Roland and Susan's actions, kinda like Marten and Gabrielle's. Are they exactly the same? No. Not saying that, but Roland did see himself as Marten. The question is, is his fear of love a contributing factor in his choice of the Dark Tower over a life with Susan:


    “Inside the ball, I was given a choice: Susan, and my life as her husband and father of the child she now carries…or the Tower. Roland wiped his face with a shaking hand. “I would choose Susan in an instant, if not for one thing: the Tower is crumbling, and if it falls, everything we know will be swept away…As for me, I choose the Tower.” W&g/x/beneath the demon moon/sec 10/p605
    you rase an itereting point but i think the tower couse him and there was no way to avoid it and that in the end was his down fall
    "First comes the smiles, then lies. last is gunfire"
    - Roland Deschain, of Gilead

  22. #72
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    path: you know what I mean - however awkwardly I stated it here and now, I've been stating it elaborately for years

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    Well, I know you, yes, but in all honesty, I've never totally integrated your various statements into an entirely consistent philosophy in my own mind. Literally, the other way around would be "One must kill off such an intense obsession in order to properly follow and focus on all the things they truly care about." To me, both appear overly simplistic as codes of living. However, I suspect that Chris, too, was trying to express more than meets the eye. Just curious about how you all see these points fitting together -- I apologize if I'm over-complicating the thread.

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