The Official End Thread

[Rambo, John J]

Insult you – God forbid, it’s all the matter of my wrong (as often happens) word choice; the natural antonym to “honest” does seem to be “dishonest”, but, as God is my witness, I didn’t imagine you in this - antonymous - position; also, I am afraid, the core word itself was wrong, and I still fail to find any better. Not really an “honest” reader, no, but someone who identifies with his reading to the point of starting an additional life every time he opens a new book; thus, it would be as futile for him to try to escape these fatal words, “the end”, as it would be for us to expect to cheat death indefinitely.

Especially when a book is Opus Magnum, the crown achievement and the big total of an author’s life, and especially if the book is so essentially intricate as TDT is.

I already bored everyone by saying it over and over, but I will say it again because I feel it is true – the Dark Tower saga is a simulation of the multiverse on many levels, and being essentially complex entails being formally convoluted; that’s why using the words “games” and “tricks” in any derogative way was the farthest thing from my mind. He makes the world for us, and he makes us live in it; at tmes he plays with us as God sometimes does, and Devil does all the time.

It is human to pray for the cup to be taken away. It is understandable to want to escape death at least this one time, - only it is there anyway, and no life is complete without this final period mark.

In this case King himself made this prayer of the chalice for us – it was his way of warning that Golgotha lies ahead. I am sure King wasn’t disappointed by what he wrote; nor was he afraid of disappointing his reader. He was warning that the last pages would be incredibly hard for the reader, as they – I believe – were for the writer; he was giving us illusion of choice, of a possibility of slipping out through back door; but he knew that ultimately there was no such thing as escape, and if he drank the cup, we, his readers, wouldn't shirk drinking it with him.


(I do so hope that the above - however incoherent - has at least in some way shown that our understanding of stories and storytelling is not really so different... )

It has indeed Jean - blame my misunderstanding on me being foolish and not quite awake at the time of writing.

As for me, i've had a bit more of a think, and I suspect I stopped reading because if I carried on to the end, then the story really would be over, and being a rabid tower junkie for all of my adult life (and most of my adolescence) I wasn't quite ready to let that happen.

Perhaps a tad overly melodramatic, but thats my story and i'm sticking to it. Think of it as a literary equivalent of Paul Giamatti's wine taster in Sideways. You know the part where he explains about his incredibly expensive, classy wine, and that how he's saving it for a special occasion? I guess thats how I am about the book. I just need someone to kick me up the arse and tell me that the day I finish it will be occasion enough.

I think your last paragraph may be the booster I need.

Anyhoo, I just wondered if anyone else had stopped reading, because for me, it was the first time where i've done that sort of thing. I'm usually a detail whore, reading everything avidly from cover to cover.

I love this by the way: "the Dark Tower saga is a simulation of the multiverse on many levels."

Exactly how i feel.

[Rambo, John J]

it is the perfect ending and thats all i will say. ;-) and i would love to hear your take on it john, if one day you choose to read it.

Really? Thats great to hear. One other reason i've cried off has been because my brother (who's book collection I raided to start my journey) did read to the end, and when I told him that I hadn't he replied 'I wish i'd done that.'

I took that to be that he was ultimately disappointed by the ending, so its refreshing to hear you say that blaine! Say thankya.

[Jean]

Think of it as a literary equivalent of Paul Giamatti's wine taster in Sideways. You know the part where he explains about his incredibly expensive, classy wine, and that how he's saving it for a special occasion? I guess thats how I am about the book.

Bears haven't seen the movie, but they sure can relate to the idea!

[blaine]

i could'nt believe it when i heard people saying they were in some way disappointed with the ending, when you finally read it you will realise its the only way it could possibly end and it is possibly the bravest and most thoughtful ending to a series ever.

also i believe that in some way the part where king tries to encourage you not to read to the end is almost like a final trick by the crimson king to prevent the reaching of the top of the tower ;-)

[AnOutsider]

Now this goes against the whole idea that Roland is looping so that each time he can do something different to finally be saved, but bear with me.

I had one of my random dreams nights last night where all my dreams were completely random, yet completely sane. That is to say they were about topics that were out there, but so real it could have been written for TV.

One of the dreams I landed in had me as I suppose Roland, and there was some temptation that I'm not clear on. Either I had to make a sacrifice to save someone or just to ease my own mind regarding what was coming ahead, but some"thing" was telling me to renounce the tower to make it all better.

By renouncing the tower, the bad thing that was coming wouldn't happen, but I'd be doomed to loop forever (the voice even went so far as to mention I'd start my life again in the desert in book/chapter 1 haha).

So ignoring the fact that this was a nutty dream, what do we think of that? Could Roland's looping be a punishment for renouncing the tower in his "first life"? not likely, but if so, how the heck would he have begun the looping if he never made it to the tower?

[flaggwalkstheline]

I'm of the opinion that rolands fate is punishment for NOT renouncing the tower and for all the bad things he has done to get there

[sarah]

I believe, like others here, that Roland isn't really looping. He just getting higher and more evolved in his quest.

couple of threads that might interest you. I know they are long but very helpful in my opinion. Welcome to the site AnOutsider.

[pathoftheturtle]

That unfound timeline is not a reality which once ceased to exist. Rather, it represents the resolution of the loop, which can never come to be unless the gunslinger meets his Maker.

[flaggwalkstheline]

That unfound timeline is not a reality which once ceased to exist. Rather, it represents the resolution of the loop, which can never come to be unless the gunslinger meets his Maker.

but he did meet his maker

[pathoftheturtle]

...I am afraid, the core word itself was wrong, and I still fail to find any better. Not really an “honest” reader, no, but someone who identifies with his reading to the point of starting an additional life every time he opens a new book...

"faithful"?

There are in fact other folken who have taken that position for various lengths, JJ. Sometimes people are different... it's all good. I just hope that you'll take care around here; very glad in any case to have your input, but you won't want an ending spoiler. Poor trade. Whatever else one may say about it, King's version is well-written.

[Letti]

I am sorry I had to move this thread but it does belong here and in some days I am going to merge it with the one of the ending threads. Sorry for doing so but we can't have many threads about the very same topic.
Thank you for your understanding.

[pathoftheturtle]

I have one further thought about the ending of the series. When Rolland is 'tugged' back in time to be doomed to repeat his quest over, it is sugested that he has made it to the Dark Tower many times, and has been shoved back many times.

Why do you think he is being 'punished' like this? is it for sacrificing Jake in book 1?

Also, this has been killing me, each time he gets 'shoved' back to the beginning, does time rest itself? Because throughout the series people seem shocked to see a gunslinger from Gilead and say "Gilead has been gone for thousands of years, you can not be from there!" ...so it would makes sence that time has continued to move forward despite Rolland 'reseting'.

HOWEVER, he sees Sheb from his time in Mejis while in book 1, and Sheb is still alive and well?

It's also possible that he is crossing to a new dimension each time and saving that particular one, and he will never be done.

hmmm i have never thought of that....that it would seem he is starting the "last dimension" since he starts out with his horn the last time...meaning Jerico hill went differently, which means anything after it (the entire story) could be changed....

interesting...

i think at its heart its a great ending as it means many different things to many different people.
and can mean different things to people depending on thier outlook on life at that time.
also doesnt it kind of inspire you to write your own ending to rolands tale in your head. even if its subconcious.

I agree with Blaine about saving the other dimensions and also with the post above. Some people hate the way the series ended, but i believe the only reason they hate it is because people want things their own way because their selfish, they dont think about the bigger picture. With Roland being pulled back or being pulled to another universe is just Ka's way of keeping The Tower safe and making sure it will not fall.

What is the purpose of the Dark Tower?

On the one hand, it is held to be the very avatar of purpose itself; the lynchpin which holds together all worlds and brings order to reality. Yet it is also suggested that Gan is the Dark Tower, and there is that myth which depicts Gan as a careless creator, virtually indistinguishable from the wild magic called the Prim.

If Roland's loop is realized through the creation of new timelines, then his quest is expanding the multiverse by generating variations on the theme of reality. However, the existence of unlimited paradox is the very definition of chaos. This would mean that Gan is in fact perpetuating the Red. If the Tower was saved in one world, why reopen a time in which its enemies still have a chance?

On the other hand, if Roland continually enters timelines which pre-exist, then what his quest actually does is to bind each in turn into the order of the multiverse. If there are an unlimited number of realities to be tamed, if chaos is indeed infinite, then it could be true that the Tower's purpose can never be completed. Only if some possibilities are to be excluded from the ultimate design would there be any real sense in even calling it a design, and only if Gan does have some sense can any "punishment" of Roland be justified, anyway.

[pathoftheturtle]

That unfound timeline is not a reality which once ceased to exist. Rather, it represents the resolution of the loop, which can never come to be unless the gunslinger meets his Maker.

but he did meet his maker

No, he was prevented from an actual meeting.
This may imply flaws in Roland, if one has faith in Gan. However, the ambiguity naturally breeds paranoia.
Your position, f.w.t.l., could be reasonable enough if you are assuming that in fact there really is something that Roland “can do different to finally be saved,” but I was trying to address AnOutsider’s speculation on its own terms.

...By renouncing the tower, the bad thing that was coming wouldn't happen, but I'd be doomed to loop forever...

If the loop is Gan’s irrevocable final judgment, then it is unjust, no matter what Roland’s fault. What is the point of punishment if it doesn’t serve for correction? It would be never-ending only if 1.) There is something fundamentally wrong with Roland that Gan cannot fix, 2.) There is something fundamentally wrong with Gan that Roland cannot fix, 3.) There is something fundamentally wrong with nature that no one can fix, or 4.) All of the above. Any of 1, 2, or 3 really implies 4, of course, but the tension of oscillation creates a sense of the unknown while generating simultaneous guilt and angst, in conflict, all perpetuating attachment to status quo. “The bad thing” might be a full exposure of one’s own hidden darkness, (even worse things could be in store for Roland) or it might be learning that life is inescapably absurd (i.e. God really is unfair) which many people would rather not think about... especially once such denial starts to make it practically true.

For this condition to become a meaningless fate could indeed be the gunslinger’s own doing, from ignorance. However, to assert that without sure evidence of the nature of Gan is to at once repress the existential fears which are Roland’s professed motive.

TDT ends in suspense, no more than suggesting an unrealized reconciliation, which reflects the personal anxiety common in our age.

[Jean]

but he did meet his maker

No, he was prevented from an actual meeting.

path, I believe flaggwtl meant Sai King...

[Ret]

I wonder if maybe Roland will only be saved from the loop if he and his whole ka-tet make it to the Tower.

I understand he had the premonition of Oy being impaled on a branch long before "The man in black fled across the desert...", however couldn't his memories be altered just like the Tower certainly has dozens of times?

If his first mistake was dropping Jake, maybe Gan decided to kill the rest of them and force him to start over once more. Perhaps Jake was only resurrected so that Roland may finish his quest to the Tower to start once more...

[flaggwalkstheline]

but he did meet his maker

No, he was prevented from an actual meeting.

path, I believe flaggwtl meant Sai King...

yep thats what I meant

but then that brings up the question of whether or not sai king is really rolands maker or if he actually needs to meet gan him/her/it self rather than just someone possessed by gan...

[pathoftheturtle]

Um...yeah! Also, brings up the question of whether King made Roland to meet Gan, or maybe Gan made King to meet Roland.
That is, how conscious was the author of the issues that I outlined?

[Letti]

I think we all cause and form our own fate. There might be things we can't avoid there might be things that must happen but at the end we lead the ship of our life. I am not a ka-person.

Anyway I agree with sarah about the looping.

[Jean]

Um...yeah! Also, brings up the question of whether King made Roland to meet Gan, or maybe Gan made King to meet Roland.

[Letti]

Um...yeah! Also, brings up the question of whether King made Roland to meet Gan, or maybe Gan made King to meet Roland.

Or maybe Roland made Gan to make King.. hm..?

[Jean]

Roland would, Roland would... bears can't put anything past him...

[pathoftheturtle]

I think we all cause and form our own fate. There might be things we can't avoid there might be things that must happen but at the end we lead the ship of our life. I am not a ka-person.

But that is ka. They say that, "A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking." What does "at the end" mean, while our life is still going on? You say that you accept that there are things which you can't control, but you don't believe in ka, because there are things which you can. Differing only in viewpoint is that there are things which I can control, but ka is not for me to say, because I accept that there are things which I can't.

This thread's confusion lies in the double meaning of the quest for the Tower. The Dark Tower is existence. It stands for the order of nature. To seek its top can mean seeking God in man, or seeking man in God. The latter, that very belief in personal dominion, leads to a vicious circle. If we cause and form our fate, then what causes and forms us? In trying to control nature, one gets trapped in a loop because all of us are parts of nature. Can Roland conquer Roland? And yet, insofar as his loop is a metaphor for all human entanglements, there's no real escape to be found in crying off from the higher purpose. Who among us is really doing other than just going around the sun, year after year?

[Brainslinger]

Interesting thoughts!

I don't necesarily see Gan as being a careless creator although that does ring a bell somewhat.

[tattoodgrl]

I may be totally off the mark, but the way i saw it was that this is Roland's personal hell he is damned to keep repeating until he starts to choose his friends over the Tower.
I loved the ending and my immidiate feeling was that I wanted to start the whole series over again. ( I haven't yet though and that was 2 years ago) .

[Aki]

I think he is sent back into an alternate dimension each time, and that each time he reaches for the tower it's a bit different. I don't know for sure if he'll meet Jake, Eddie and the rest each time, or if it will be as if they never existed.

However he learns something new each time - perhaps he understood friendship and love this last time because of his friends, and he understood he doesn't have to do everything by the book - he took time to gather up the Horn of Eld. I don't think it is a personal hell, instead I think the Tower / Gan means him to learn something, something about friendship and love. And when he finally does, then he is granted the Tower, which rather is a personal heaven.