Well now that its finished (at least the end is while the beginning moves on) Lets take a look for similarities, inspirations and like themes between the Dark Tower and the age old classic Lord of the Rings (SK's admitted inspiration)
1. Barad-dum and Orthanc combined might be the DT
2. Moria and the mines/caves where Jake fell
3. Boromir and Eddie each with a monkey on his back. Eddie junk/Boromir the ring
4. Sauron and the Crimson King
5. Flagg and the Witch King of angmar
Well I got you started you guys feel free to add on8)
Well now that its finished (at least the end is while the beginning moves on) Lets take a look for similarities, inspirations and like themes between the Dark Tower and the age old classic Lord of the Rings (SK's admitted inspiration)
1. Barad-dum and Orthanc combined might be the DT
2. Moria and the mines/caves where Jake fell
3. Boromir and Eddie each with a monkey on his back. Eddie junk/Boromir the ring
4. Sauron and the Crimson King
5. Flagg and the Witch King of angmar
Well I got you started you guys feel free to add on8)
Interesting topic, though I have to disagree with some of the similarities you've pointed out.
-Barad Dur & Orthanc/The Dark Tower
Other than that they are all towers, I see little in common. Barad Dur is Sauron's fortress. It is entirely representative of evil and malice. Orthanc was built by the Gondorians for their own protection. It was used by Saruman for his own evil doings, but after the War of the Ring it went back to the posession of the Gondorians. The Dark Tower is neither good nor evil, nor the homebase of any force for White or Red. It is the World Axis. I don't see the connection.
- Sauron and The CK
They could not be more opposite in my mind. Ok, on the surface, they are both the Big Bad Guy. That's where it ends. Sauron was obsessed with order. This was the cause of his initial fall way back when. His obsession with order caused him to believe Melkor's lies and participate in his evil. The CK, on the other hand, desires chaos. Their goals are completely different.
- Walter & The Witch King
Again, on the surface there may be some similarities. They both started out as human beings. But let's look closer. The Witch King is wholly a slave to Sauron. He has no will of his own. He does what Sauron orders him to. He is Sauron's champion on the battlefield, leader of his armies in nearly every battle Sauron waged on Middle Earth's realms.
I think a more apt parallel for Walter lies with Saruman. Both are individuals who know much about how the world works, and have many powers to manipulate others. Saruman does not submit to Sauron, instead he has laid his own plans to capture the One Ring and rule in Sauron's place. This is similar to Walter's desire to kill Mordred and use his birthmark to enter the Tower and climb to the top for himself. Walter and Saruman are both duplicitous wizards who will use anyone, good or evil, for their own gains. Much more of a parallel there than between Walter and the Lord of the Nazgul.
I think a more apt parallel for Walter lies with Saruman. Both are individuals who know much about how the world works, and have many powers to manipulate others. Saruman does not submit to Sauron, instead he has laid his own plans to capture the One Ring and rule in Sauron's place. This is similar to Walter's desire to kill Mordred and use his birthmark to enter the Tower and climb to the top for himself. Walter and Saruman are both duplicitous wizards who will use anyone, good or evil, for their own gains. Much more of a parallel there than between Walter and the Lord of the Nazgul.
3. Boromir and Eddie each with a monkey on his back. Eddie junk/Boromir the ring
It's difficult to compare members of the ka-tet to those of the fellowship. At times, they all seem to embody parts of each other. I could probably sit here all day and still not come up with something comprehensive enough.
For instance, Roland at times is like Gandalf and then he's like Frodo and then he's like Aragorn.
I could also say that Jake, Susannah, and Eddie all embody parts of Aragorn, Sam, and Merry & Pip (especially when Eddie tries Roland's patience early on.)
Not even close. For starters, Shardik was not evil. Shardik was what he was, a Guardian of the Beam. No more, no less. He may have tried to kill Eddie, but this didn't make him evil. Additionally, he could be killed by something as simple as a bullet to the radar dish. Durin's Bane on the other hand was a completely different story. This was a supernatural being, a maiar like Gandalf or Saruman or Sauron. He could not be taken out by something so simple as an arrow to the head. Only the fully unveiled power of Gandalf himself was able to bring the Balrog down and that cost Gandalf his life. It was also pure evil having been seduced by Melkor to the darkness way way back in the First Age. There's really no comparison to Shardik other than they were both large creatures.
Witch King/Mordred? stretch?
A HUGE stretch. Mordred was a supernatural being bred specifically to rule all universes along with his father (or perhaps even in his stead). The Witch King was a man who was seduced to evil by Sauron. He became very powerful indeed but ultimately he was never anything more than a weapon for Sauron to use against his enemies. Additionally, we saw that Mordred has a mind of his own. Yes, the pull of his Red Daddy was very strong, but Mordred had free will. What he did, he did by choice. The Witch King had no free will. He was wholly a slave to Sauron and nothing save death was going to change that. He could not suddenly decide he wasn't going to do Sauron's bidding and seek his own power. It was not an option available to him.
Brautigan/Elrond?
On this one I can't even see where there's a comparison. Brautigan was a man with special powers who was being used by the bad guys to brook the destruction of the universe. Instead of giving in to that, he led a rebellion. Elrond was the last King of the exiled elves in Middle Earth. At no time were his powers ever used by Sauron as Brautigan's were by the CK. Additionally, Elrond never really had to be concerned that the universe would end if Sauron was victorious. He knew full well that Middle Earth was not all there was to the world and that even if he and all the elves of Middle Earth were destroyed by Sauron they would go to Valinor and live free among their kindred and the Valar. Brautigan, on the other hand, had a good idea that if the CK was victorious that the world was over. I just don't see at all how the two are comparable.
I think that the two series are comparable on a general thematic basis - they are both about small groups of people joined together to undertake a quest to fight evil. Other than that, there may some surface similarities, but there are very very few direct comparisons that can be made.
mordred/shelob (I believe shelob is from The Hobbit however)
blackthriteen / orbs (I can't remember the bad wizards name from LOTR but he had an orb too!)
rhea/gollum (they both were over taken by their "precious" and it damages their health too and actually changes them into beings that don't look quite human)
RIDDLING! riddles in the dark...with Gollum... and all S.K. did with Blaine was riddle, among other places in the book.
not to mention all of the TOWERS that were in LOTR right? ugg it's been a while since I read those, and I was REALLY into those a long time ago.
OK I know I had better ones, clearer similarities, let me remember them when I'm more awake, I JUST FINISHED THE SERIES like 2 hours ago. So, yeah! Let me know what you think!
I guess Rhea isn't human...she's a witch, but remember the book said she had sores and she looked like a skeleton blah blah...something totally freaky? It was Her Pink Orb that did it to her
theyspunaweb - there are definitely some good points in there.
Originally Posted by theyspunaweb
mordred/shelob (I believe shelob is from The Hobbit however)
Actually Shelob was from LotR, specifically The Two Towers. The only comparison is that they are both spiders. As we all know, Mordred was much more than this, being part human and of the Line of Eld. Had he beaten Roland he stood to gain quite a bit of power from his Red Father. Shelob was not poised to gain anything other than a meal. She was not in league with Sauron, she just lived in the same neighborhood.
blackthriteen / orbs (I can't remember the bad wizards name from LOTR but he had an orb too!)
I believe you are referring to the Palantiri. I am sure King took the initial idea for Maerlyn's Rainbow from the concept of the Palantiri (he actually says it somewhere I believe). The origins and uses of the devices are radically different in the two works, but yes, there are powerful seeing orbs at play in both universes.
rhea/gollum (they both were over taken by their "precious" and it damages their health too and actually changes them into beings that don't look quite human)
That's actually a pretty good one. There are obviously considerable differences between them, but in terms of Rhea and the grapefruit and Smeagol and the One Ring, you make an excellent comparison. Both were consumed by the power of the object of their desires and turned from troublesome humans into monstrous creatures.
RIDDLING! riddles in the dark...with Gollum... and all S.K. did with Blaine was riddle, among other places in the book.
That's another good solid comparison between the two, although this time it was The Hobbit and not LotR, but still part of the same essential storyline. Both Tolkien and King used riddling contests in a life or death situation, and if you will, both contests were won by "tricksy" riddles. Bilbo's "what have I got in my pocket?" wasn't intentional illogic like Eddie's joke riddle, but both Bilbo and Eddie won the contests with riddles outside of the scope of expectations of their opponents.
not to mention all of the TOWERS that were in LOTR right?
Well people do build towers. Obviously none of the towers in LotR were the representative of the World Axis like the DT.
well...along with the towers...I guess what I mean to say was, S.K. was trying to make his own "LoTR" right? and but in doing so he used many physical references to the same things. MANY that I noticed. I guess that if you look at it this way, the same could be said about his story and that of MANY others along the same lines...sort of like saying, hey, the dark tower series is like Harry Potter because a train took them to Hogwarts and Blaine the mono took them from Topeka!
I guess where I was going with Shelob etc (and you made really good points, how different they were) was just in fact that Shelob and Mordred were just spiders. I just wonder why King used so many similar elements to the Lord of the Rings series. It made it hard for me not to notice them, even if they had different characteristics in the different books because of S.K.'s long forward about how he loved Tolkien and my own love for the books years ago.
There are many differences however in S.K.'s book though and I'm glad he went there or else it wouldn't have worked for me personally. Like all of the pop cultural references. When he brought in the "Sneetches" it was different because this was looking at an element of a story, outside of a story. Also King brought in the element of Technology, Vampires, Taheen...the list could go on. My main gripe was I just the mere idea that I found myself trying to connect the two DT and LOTR similarities the whole time, no matter how small because I knew S.K. had read it. So as little as they are, I notice them from where S.K. may have gotten them from.
I agree, the influence of Tolkien on King is very clear, and I think King did a fine job of using LotR as an influence but using these elements in his own way (as opposed to say Terry Brooks who just changed some names).
I guess what I mean to say was, S.K. was trying to make his own "LoTR" right?
yes, but just as he was trying (and largely succeeding, I think) to write his own everything, a Book of Books. I would bet (safely, I believe) that if we take any other book, especially one that consists of more than three hundred pages, we will find lots of parallels there, too (I leave now open the question of how many parallels we'll find if we just take any two random books).
I absolutely loved your Rhea/Gollum observation anyway!
Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)
bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would bet (safely, I believe) that if we take any other book, especially one that consists of more than three hundred pages, we will find lots of parallels there, too (I leave now open the question of how many parallels we'll find if we just take any two random books).
It'd be a safe bet for sure. Remember that Tolkien's primary influence for his work was mythology (mostly Norse) and from such one will find parallels with most epic storytelling.
Originally Posted by Jean
I absolutely loved your Rhea/Gollum observation anyway!
It is an excellent point of comparison between the two. One of the few I've seen that goes beyond the surface similarities.
I was listening to The Two Towers this morning, and was struck by another similarity between Susannah/Detta and Smeagol/Gollum. The part where Gollum and Smeagol are arguing over whether or not to help the hobbits (just before he decides to lead them to Shelob's lair) when unbeknownst to Gollum, Sam is listening in.
It seemed very much like Susannah's turmoil with Detta.
I was listening to The Two Towers this morning, and was struck by another similarity between Susannah/Detta and Smeagol/Gollum. The part where Gollum and Smeagol are arguing over whether or not to help the hobbits (just before he decides to lead them to Shelob's lair) when unbeknownst to Gollum, Sam is listening in.
It seemed very much like Susannah's turmoil with Detta.
There are definitely aspects of the Smeagol/Gollum (or slinker and stinker as Sam thinks of them) which are reflected in Susannah/Detta/Odetta. I would suggest that there is some contrast...
Spoiler:
We are led to believe that Odetta's multiple personality disorder was caused by the head injury she suffered at Mort's hand.
In other words, not her own doing.
Gollum arose because Smeagol was seduced by the One Ring, which was his own doing.
This is not to say I don't empathize with Smeagol. Greater men than he couldn't resist the Ring either. It takes an Aragorn or a Faramir to say no to the thing.
Nonetheless, there is a similar approach from both writers in the way they described the interactions between character's multiple personalities.
I always likened Smeagol more to Roland than anyone else. Roland is obsessed with the Tower...a Tower junkie as Eddie calls him. Smeagol is a Ring junkie. Both of these addictions lead them to bad "ends". (personally, I believe that Roland will only break the cycle when he stops his pursuit of the Tower after freeing the breakers. After this point the only thing driving him on is his own obsession...the Tower is already saved but he's still willing to risk the lives of others to continue on to the Tower...this, I think, damns him as surely as any other thing he's done...like letting Jake drop)
Roland is like Smeagol, Gandalf, and Aragorn all wrapped up into one.
He is like Gandalf in that he is the main source of information for the rest of the ka tet. He is their guide. Everywhere the Fellowship went Gandalf was the guy that told them about where they were. In other words, as Gandalf provides much of the "lore" of Middle-earth, Roland provided the "lore" of Mid-world. Roland is the one that assembles the ka-tet just as Gandalf had a huge role in gathering the Fellowship. Roland is the man with the goal...he gives direction to the group, that direction being the Tower. This is also true of Gandalf. His mission is to bring down Sauron and to enlist whatever aid he needs to do so, be it gathering the armies of the Free Peoples of Middle earth, helping to usher a king to his throne, or leading a small group of people into Mordor with the intent to destroy the Ring.
His similarities to Aragorn are, I think, fairly obvious. Both are last in a line of great kings. They are similar in appearance. They have similar abilities...tracking, living off the land...both "rangers" after a fashion. They're both great warriors. They're both leaders that have that something that makes people follow them.
And I agree with Jean in that you could compare just about any two novels and find a lot of parallels. After all, there's only so many themes to go around. For instance, every buddy story in existence could be traced back to the first buddy story etched into a tablet...Gilgamesh and Enkidu. And you can bet the farm that that story comes from an oral tradition that was changed six ways to Sunday before anyone ever bothered to carve it onto a stone.
Interesting comparisons Coz. There is a lot of similarity between aspects of Roland and aspects of those characters. Roland and Smeagol are definitely influenced by their obsessions. The one key difference I would point out is with regard to intentions. Whether or not Roland is actually on a quest to save the world or just save himself is a matter of endless debate, but Roland thinks he is out to save the world. His actions in the name of his obsession may be shocking and horrible, but in his mind he is doing it because he thinks the fate of the universe hangs in the balance. Smeagol's actions have always been motivated by personal gain.
I like some of the comparisons with Gandalf, particularly with respect to being the master of lore of Mid-World. There's certainly some Elrond in that aspect of Roland. Elrond perhaps even a bit more than Gandalf as Elrond was present at the War of the Last Alliance, as well as numerous other battles against Sauron in the Second and Third Ages of Middle Earth. Like Roland at Jericho Hill and the other battles, they both participated in and remember these times.
The Dark Tower vs The Lord of the Rings
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Originally Posted by Merlin1958
My thoughts exactly.
