View Poll Results: What was their love like?

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  • A deep faithful one.

    61 57.01%
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Thread: Their love

  1. #51
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    Here's a good question:

    If he hadn't met Susan, would he still have been as obsessed with getting to the tower or do you think this is a vengeance quest, to make meaning out of Susan's death?

  2. #52
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    Here's a good question:

    If he hadn't met Susan, would he still have been as obsessed with getting to the tower or do you think this is a vengeance quest, to make meaning out of Susan's death?
    I am sure he would have been exactly as obsessed. I am also sure he would have found someone else to sacrifice on that way.

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  3. #53
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    Now, seeing as we are talking about their love not happening, what would of happen had he not gone to Mejis at all?

  4. #54
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    He wouldn't have seen the "crystal ball" and he wouldn't have ended up looping again?

  5. #55
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    I don't have the slightest idea, I was wondering what everyone else thought. But, that sounds very possible

  6. #56
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    Maybe that's the thing... in the next loop he's not supposed to go to Mejis?

    Just an idea.

  7. #57
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    [QUOTE=Jean;68593I] [time is the only test of true love (QUOTE]


    Then by your definition we can never really know whether Roland and Susan's love for each other is true or not, because it never had the opportunity to to take the test of time. So the only barometer that we have, as you defined it is that Roland still carries a torch for Susan LONG after their time together, in spite of his quest for the tower, and the other trials he's endured. It was obvious to me that Roland loved Alain, Cuthbert, and Jamie long after they had been killed, but that love for his "brothers" is not questioned. Call me a romantic, but I don't believe that time is a test of anything. I think people often stay together for a long time more out of habit, than a true desire to be together. I think often they are too lazy, or scared to move on and they stay together and put the stamp of "true love" on it to excuse their own laziness or fear.

    (bear in mind that this is coming from someone who's longest relationship lasted 5 years, who has the social skills of a pissed off gorilla, so I'm probably full of shit)

  8. #58
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    Going off of Jeans quote, that would mean that their love did stand the test of time, at least for Roland, who thought about and missed her his whole life.

  9. #59
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    TerribleT: see my example about gold and chocolate: if I maintain that only time can prove that a relationship is love, it doesn't follow that any time-tested relationship is love. I think in Roland/Susan case we have no barometer at all, and his remembering her only shows us how capable of remorse he was. Love for brothers, or friendship, is for me an entirely different matter, that should be discussed separately.

    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT
    (bear in mind that this is coming from someone who's longest relationship lasted 5 years, who has the social skills of a pissed off gorilla, so I'm probably full of shit)
    (bear in mind that this is coming from someone who is always obsessively nitpicking on logic and trying to define and redefine all notions within or without reach, and disagreeing with everyone around... From bear to gorilla! )

    EDITED: Storyslinger, I just saw your post; as you could see I disagree... again...

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  10. #60
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    I see your point, and I do agree, I'm just playing the opposite card.

    I personally didn't like Susan, and thought she just played Roland, so there was never any love

  11. #61
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    Well... I'm a romantic, and I'd like to believe as Letti that their love was pure and wonderful and all of that, and it would stand the test of time, and perhaps I should reread it, and I'm going to start to ramble but I didn't feel the deep connection between Roland and Susan that a lot of other people did. I wanted to, I guess I just never got attached to Susan because I knew she was going to die and I guess I was mad that SK took a big step back for half a book to explain their love, when I wanted to know what was going on with the ka-tet. But that's just me. Reading them again and again and again - as is my way - I will find new meaning every time.

    But as for love lasting forever, if it is with the right one, it can. There are some people that I will love forever, in different ways and not just because it is a habit. Maybe I'm just helplessly in love, but my heart still pounds in my chest when my husband calls me on the phone, and when he walks in the door...

  12. #62
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Jean, I'm ok with that, but your assertion was that time was the ONLY true measure of a relationship. If that's your assertion, then logic dictates that the abusive relationships, and the friendships all fit within your assertion. They've stood the ONLY true test. So, using your measure, we can't judge their relationship at all. We can only say that it was untested, given the criteria set forth.

  13. #63
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Storyslinger
    I see your point, and I do agree, I'm just playing the opposite card.

    I personally didn't like Susan, and thought she just played Roland, so there was never any love
    wow! no, I never went as far as to doubt her sincerity. Anything to confirm that?

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
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  14. #64
    Citizen of Gilead TerribleT is on a distinguished road TerribleT's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    Maybe I'm just helplessly in love, but my heart still pounds in my chest when my husband calls me on the phone, and when he walks in the door...

    This is EXACTLY the assertion that I'm trying to make, which others earlier in this thread had discounted as not true love. I think the heart pounding excimtement when you see or talk to your love IS true love, whether it's for a week, a month, or a lifetime.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Storyslinger
    I see your point, and I do agree, I'm just playing the opposite card.

    I personally didn't like Susan, and thought she just played Roland, so there was never any love
    wow! no, I never went as far as to doubt her sincerity. Anything to confirm that?
    Not really, I just never trusted her. I only felt sorry for his feeling of the loss, not for her. I think that maybe my beliefs are a little more personal related, but there was the part where she wondered if she would have fallen for Cuthbert had she met him first

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    the real test of love is whether or not you're annoyed by where your second half puts his/her socks. Extremal situations breed crushes, infatuations, raging passions, whatever; true love is a phenomenon of every-day life.
    I think that kinda depends on what your definition of true love is. If it's putting up with someone's bad habits, I'm not really sure I would call that true love.
    I meant - and I believe I made it more or less clear in other posts, too (at least I tried) that true love is love that lasts no matter what, and this "what" isn't evil dragons or malicious witches or other romantic stuff. If you want it in other words, time is the only test of true love (as opposed to other similar phenomena, such as infatuation or passion). If the feeling was never subjected to the test of time, there's no telling whather it wasn't just a passing phantom created by the longing to love and be loved, so characteristic for certain age. Socks, armpits, tuneless whistling, will all be revealed as you live with the person you, allegedly, love... it's then that your love either grows stronger, or disappears, leaving only this frustration of your romantic anticipations (I thought she was an angel, and she belches after a glass of beer)
    Isn't love just love? To my thinking it is at least. There is no "true love", there is only love, and it is everything. People have, and will continue to find lots of rationaliztions for ending a romance or whatever (i.e. Your angel belching after a glass of beer , a violent or abusive relationship, betrayal, etcetera) , but from what I've seen and experienced the love is always still there. Otherwise there would be no pain or hurt in these situations. No the love is as real and true as it ever was. I don't think there is a "test of time" or a test at all. Love isn't something which is proven ever. It can't be. It just is or it isn't. In short ...I think any/every love is true, so I must say that I think Roland's and Susan's was at least from the perspective of the characters and so it is equal to your love or mine or any other. As for whether it would have lasted if Susan hadn't become fuel for a fire... *shrug* It's a story. I don't see how you can say. There are too many possible directions a relationship can take. It ended short.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

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  17. #67
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerribleT View Post
    Jean, I'm ok with that, but your assertion was that time was the ONLY true measure of a relationship. If that's your assertion, then logic dictates that the abusive relationships, and the friendships all fit within your assertion. They've stood the ONLY true test.
    (sorry to quote myself, but it was a good example and I am not as bright as to think of a new one) If I said that gold can be recognized because your teeth can make imprint on it (that's how gold coins used to be roughly tested), it wouldn't mean I said that chocolate or chewing gum was gold.

    The only test doesn't mean the complete definition.

    So, using your measure, we can't judge their relationship at all. We can only say that it was untested, given the criteria set forth.
    Yes, - if it being untested was all we could judge by, we could say we couldn't say anything about it. (I have my personal reasons to doubt their love, mostly because both the female protagonist and the whole story were so annoyingly cliched.)

    Brice: I think you and Nikolett see eye-to-eye on this subject. I see your point very well; I think the intrinsic difference between our points of view is more epistemological than essential; it mostly depends on whether you've chosen to find differences or essential similarities in phenomena. Both approaches, I believe, are indispensable if we want to discover the truth, or at least to come as close to it as it is humanly possible.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  18. #68
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    I agree Jean. She wasn't a very deep character. That's probably why I had a hard time with liking her.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storyslinger View Post
    I personally didn't like Susan, and thought she just played Roland, so there was never any love
    When I first ever read WaG it was instantly my favourite book (it no longer is, it lost some of it's sparkle over too many rereads) and I found nothing insincere in Roland, Susan or their relationship.

    I don't think she played Roland, I think she genuinely adored him, perhaps even more so because she was a prisoner in her own life and he represented the unknown and adventure - things she equated to freedom.

  20. #70
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    I went back and explained my original post, so, here it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Storyslinger View Post
    Not really, I just never trusted her. I only felt sorry for his feeling of the loss, not for her. I think that maybe my beliefs are a little more personal related, but there was the part where she wondered if she would have fallen for Cuthbert had she met him first

  21. #71
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    I didn't take that as anything to read too much into, more the sort of inner monologue we all have where it's ok to think things that would probably be taken the wrong way if we said them out loud.

  22. #72
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    Yes, you say true, my main reason is just personal stuff at the time of reading it. I'm sure she wasn't written as a deciteful character, and she did stand true at the time of her death.

  23. #73
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  24. #74
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  25. #75
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Storyslinger View Post
    I personally didn't like Susan, and thought she just played Roland, so there was never any love
    Oh my...

    Guys, sometimes you can shock me.
    I do respect your opinion Brian but PLEASE reread this book.

    Roland would have understood.

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