RT is pretty much dead to me. Always make your own mind, folks.
RT is pretty much dead to me. Always make your own mind, folks.
I liked it a lot. Did you see the extended edition?Originally Posted by fernandito
Idk. I get the DC universe, but after seeing BvS for a second time I have absolutely no desire to ever revisit again. Something that rarely happens with me and CBMs.
Yes. I liked that it expanded on some of the subplots, but no amount of extended scenes can fix "Martha" or Eisenberg's laughably bad Luthor portrayal.I liked it a lot. Did you see the extended edition?Idk. I get the DC universe, but after seeing BvS for a second time I have absolutely no desire to ever revisit again. Something that rarely happens with me and CBMs.
I will say that I enjoyed the Trinity's fight against Doomsday immensely.
The Martha scene is so overblown. It was a very emotionally poignant scene for me. I feel like those that critique that scene missed its point. It humanized Superman for Batman who was dead set on killing him because he was a weird and dangerous alien. For me it worked and I almost teared up when first watching it.
Oh, I can definitely see how the Martha scene was meant to come across - that it causes Batman to acknowledge that Superman is, despite all of his powers, essentially one of us, with a mother who loves him just like Bruce's parents did. If done right, I think it could've worked very well.
The problem lies with the fact that the film had been building for over two hours towards Batman fighting Superman, not just for one reason but for many. He saw Superman causing a lot of damage in Man of Steel; due to Luthor's plotting, he believes him to be responsible for a ton of more damage, and if all of that wasn't enough, he's shown a fucking vision of Superman becoming exactly the kind of monster he's afraid of! The problem by this point is that Snyder did too good a job of building towards this fight that it just seemed unlikely that Batman would back down from that single reason alone. Especially what happens after that scene:
OK, so maybe not quite like that (and I will admit, Batman beating the shit out of those criminals was pretty damn awesome to watch, especially in the final trailer rather than in the film itself without all that buildup), but honestly, I just think the whole thing was a mess. It's not that it's the worst comic book movie ever made. It's just not what it could have been.Batman: Don't worry, I'll save Martha. I now accept that, with all his powers and despite the fact that I've seen him become the monster I fear him to be in a vision/dream/whatever the hell that was, I now know he's one of us. I've learned my lesson.
Lois: So what are you going to do?
Batman: Beat the shit out of and kill some more bad guys. It's not like they have mothers too!
Lois: I'm pretty sure they do.
Batman: Yeah, but are any of them named 'Martha'?
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
James said everything I was going to say so I'll just endorse his post.
I guess I was not looking forward as much to the fight itself. It was cool, of course, but we all knew they would become friends and partners, because there's the Justice League coming. And with that in mind I did not have any problems with the Martha scene. I'm just not sure why others did. Whenever I watch a movie I like to suspend any disbelief. I never analyze the film in that way. When you start doing that too much, anything can fall apart. My favorite answer to any question like "Well, why did he do this" or "Why did he do it like that" is always, "Because that's how it's in the movie!" If he didn't do it like that, there would be a different movie or no movie at all. What happens is what happens and you have to take it at its face value. You can ruin even the most perfect of movies trying to inject the whys and the hows. That's how I feel with most movies, but if a movie is objectively bad, like Scary Movie 67 or something, there's no suspending disbelief. But BvS is not that type of movie. For me.
The think the best movie of the whole DC Universe will be the Affleck directed stand alone batman.
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The execution though is laughable. SO CHEESY. For a key moment it's just poor.
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You know what, I wasn't exactly looking forward to the fight, either. To be honest, I thought it was too soon for that kind of story. I wanted a Batman and Superman movie where they clashed and had to deal with their differences, sure. But an actual fight between the two? In my opinion, it just needed more build-up. That's why I enjoyed Civil War a lot more, as the fight scene itself felt like a massive blow after destroying a friendship that had been built up over the past few years.
Plus, it would've been nice if Superman and Batman had clashed more. I'm not asking for Christopher Reeves's level of cheese with Superman (although I still love those first two movies, especially the Donner Cut of II), but as much as the film tried to show Superman as the symbol of hope, at the same time, his actions were being questioned as they were unsanctioned...which, apparently, was Superman's massive problem with Batman. If the two had genuinely differed more, even if it was just down to Superman working with the government to stop Batman (just one more thing that could've been borrowed from Miller's TDKR that could've added so much more), I think it could have been a lot more interesting. I wasn't asking for a live-action adaptation of TDKR, just a good Batman/Superman movie that could've explored the two better.
Cheers for the endorsement, feev. Especially with that avatar.
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
Well gdIf you know someone you really can't stand - not someone you dislike, not someone who rubs you the wrong way, but someone you really loathe and detest - send that person a ticket for "Suicide Squad."
-Mick LaSalle, San Francisco Chronicle
I'm utterly fascinated how wildly off the mark many critics appear to be with DC's movies. I can't figure it out... I think they have this set idea of what superhero or comic book movies "have to be" and if they're not using the Marvel formula, they're bad. And this is not a DC vs. Marvel thing, I like both and have seen each movie, as well as each X-Men movie.
The only problem with that is that films like The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises have scored really, really well with critics, and those are seriously different from the Marvel formula. Hell, even outside of DC and Marvel, look at Dredd - a comic book movie that's not exactly filled with quips or family-friendly light-hearted cheese, and yet that got a score of 78% on rotten tomatoes.
I think one problem the new DC movies are having for the general audience is that they're cramming in too much too soon into each movie. This isn't just about the Extended Universe, this about movie storytelling specifically.
Let's look at the Dark Knight. Across two and a half hours, there are two key plot strands - Batman having to deal with the Joker, and the downfall of Harvey Dent. Both are not only heavily connected but are very character focused and develop organically across two and a half hours. Each part of the story develops naturally into the next. It's a great story with a beginning, middle and ending done well. That's all I ask for in a story.
Now let's look at BvS. Yes, there is the overall story of the lead up to the fight between the two title characters, but it's filled with just far too many sub-plots that feel barely connected to each other. You've got:
Spoiler:
It all feels like too much plot and not enough time developing the characters and their relationships to each other. Each of those storylines combined with another could've been great on their own (well, maybe not one with Lex's pee, that could've just been chucked all over Eisenberg's performance as far as I'm concerned), but instead, they're just cramming all of that into just one movie, with the whole feel of the film feeling like a collection of different plots rather than one cohesive whole. That's why I'm curious about the Ultimate Edition, to see if it had tied up things any better. Or I was, until Fernando posted his thoughts. We may not always agree on certain things, but I think when it comes to Batman and DC's approach on film, we tend to be in agreement on this a lot, and it sounds like in this case, extended or not, BvS is just a superhero film with limited appeal.
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
I'm starting to think the only reason The Dark Knight trilogy was so well received by these same critics is that they were directed by a beloved auteur.
And too much plot is never a problem when watching television series. Pick any modern drama or action series and there will be multiple overlapping storylines happening at the same time, often unconnected, but relating to one another in some way.
Yes, but television series - even limited-run/British TV series - have way more hours than a film, and therefore can balance the plot with other key elements, like character development and drama.
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
Again, James nailed down everything I wanted to say. You're on a roll my boy.
Um, no. They were received well because they are great films.
Yeah, but this isn't a TV series that can devote 10+ hours a season to a particular story arc. This is a film series, and film is a very limited form of art. Real estate is at a premium and if you cram too much in there, you get Spider Man 3 and BvS.And too much plot is never a problem when watching television series. Pick any modern drama or action series and there will be multiple overlapping storylines happening at the same time, often unconnected, but relating to one another in some way.
I was fine with BvS's plot and stoylines. Even the expanded edition did not feel to me like it added that much, it was a solid story as it was. Nothing to get lost in.
I could debate that. But I won't.Um, no. They were received well because they are great films.
Bring it.
I could debate that. But I won't.Um, no. They were received well because they are great films.
I think I already talked about the Nolan films a while back in this very thread. I did not like them very much with the exception of the middle entry, mainly due to Ledger. I'm not a critic so I cannot eloquently speak to what didn't work for me in specific terms, but the trilogy did not work for me. So I'm not just a blind DC fanboy. I also obviously didn't like the Schumacher entries, but at least they're on the so-bad-they're-fun side.
28 Minute review? Jesus. I may as well just watch the damn thing!
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The casts for all of them are stacked. Zimmer's score. Great villains who all offered something different. I love The Dark Knight Trilogy and frankly, I don't really like Nolan as a director and I haven't been thrilled with his films outside Batman since Memento. But he nailed Batman. The trilogy itself tells a great story, and one of the reasons I like TDKR the most is how well it wraps up the overall story and all the themes so beautifully, as pretty much every trilogy flubs it all in the last movie, or at least the franchise is at an all time low-point at the third movie.
What I love most about Nolan's movies is they are more focuses on telling the story of Bruce Wayne than the story of Batman. The Dark Knight is the only actual Batman movie where Batman is there from beginning to end, and the plot itself is about Batman far more than Bruce, but Batman is dead before Rises starts and he's barely in Begins.
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