The DC Film Universe

[Ricky]

first - ricky, it's a date.

what i don't understand is the body count attributed to him. he killed whatshisface and his driver (that's two), he let rodriquez (was that her name) live, he killed that other cop in the bar (that's three). so where did the other two bodies come from?

Okay, which theater are we going to? I may have a drive ahead of me if you're far. I really want need to see this again... I have only seen it twice.

I saw a post over at IMDB that explained the 5 people that he killed. I'll have to look for it and let you know.

[The Lady of Shadows]

first - ricky, it's a date.

what i don't understand is the body count attributed to him. he killed whatshisface and his driver (that's two), he let rodriquez (was that her name) live, he killed that other cop in the bar (that's three). so where did the other two bodies come from?

Okay, which theater are we going to? I may have a drive ahead of me if you're far. I really want need to see this again... I have only seen it twice.

I saw a post over at IMDB that explained the 5 people that he killed. I'll have to look for it and let you know.

yeah, if you could find that post i would appreciate it cause i don't get it.

and dude, you so threw over matt's quote for hannah's. see, i knew you were a stalker at heart!!!!!!!

about the movie, i'm not sure where you are either (i'll have to give you a turtle geography lesson some day ) but i'd say one of us is in for a drive probably. but that's cool my mini turtle loves road trips!

[fernandito]

Alright guys, this a list that /someone/ posted over at the IMDB message boards, basically it's 34 reasons why he thought TDK failed as a coherent story. Check some of these out and let us know what you think :

_________


This isn't my list, I found it on the web...Though I must say I aggree with most of the list, and I am very angry that critics decided to Ignore what would have condemed any other comic book movie.

Here goes:

1. The bank raid

The school bus just happens to break through the wall at the exact moment that the last remaining bank robber is holding a gun on the Joker. How is everything so perfectly choreographed that the robber ends up in the exact spot he needs to be to get hit by the bus? Not realistic at all. Then, the school bus drives out of the bank at the exact right moment to join up with a huge procession of other school buses! And there just happens to be a space for the bus to enter. For this to happen, everything from the beginning to the end of the raid would have to happen with split-second precision and timing with no room for error.

Impossible, as there are too many variables at play. For example, the gunshot-toting bank manager. That was unforeseen and put a crimp in their plan. Yet despite this, everything *still* runs like clockwork. I also disliked the way the Bank robbers explained the plot as they set up the raid, talking about who gets a cut and about the Joker. Was this necessary? This kind of ‘hey folks, this is what’s happening!’ dialogue plagues the whole film. Another prime example is when Ramirez tells Gordon about the Joker card with three sets of DNA. Gordon responds: ‘The Joker is trying to tell us who he’s targeting’. Well, no *beep* That is OBVIOUS.

2. Other bank raid nonsense

i) Why was the alarm that can disable the entire security system of the bank on the roof - the easiest place for would-be criminals to get at it? ii) Why abseil onto the roof from across the street? This is the least inconspicuous way to get into the bank?! Furthermore, breaking that window would lead to glass showering down onto the street, which would attract attention, would it not? iii) Where are the Bank’s security guards? iv) At the beginning of the raid, there are screaming customers everywhere. Near the end of the raid, the customers have mysteriously disappeared. Where did they go? Running off into the street to alert the cops? v) Are we to believe that The Joker’s mob commandeered an entire fleet of school buses and that’s why everything was done with such precision?

3. Scarecrow scene

Batman jumps from the top level of the parking structure and lands on an escaping SUV. What happens? The SUV is crushed AND the impact of Batman makes it stop. GIVE ME A BREAK! Batman is only a mere mortal. He would have bounced off the car and would have made a minor dent at best. He was only about 50 feet up, yet when he lands *on his legs*, he is somehow strong enough to crush the entire roof of the vehicle!

4. The Hong Kong section

Overblown and overwritten. There are simpler ways to grab Lau and bring him back to the US. Why grab him in his office building?! Does he live there? I think not. Batman could’ve nabbed Lau *far easier* at his residence/on the street/in his car etc with less personal risk and expensive planning.

5. The Rachel/Dent/Wayne triangle.

I hated the fact that Rachel was in a serious relationship with Dent yet she still kissed Wayne on the balcony at that party. This made me lose respect for her character because she is basically cheating on Dent. Rachel is supposed to be this strong, moral woman with inalienable principles, yet she cheats on someone she clearly loves. The triangle didn’t need to be written this way; it would have been better if Bruce went in for the kiss and Rachel pulled back.

6. Commissioner Loeb’s death.

Right at the moment Gordon arrives with news of the threat, Loeb decides to have drink, and dies right at the moment Gordon is figuring out where the DNA could have come from. Okay, it’s possible but it’s just so contrived! Let’s assume that Loeb only found out about the threat when Gordon arrived. How ridiculous is this?! Surely if the Police Commissioner’s life is at risk, you want to let him know *straight away* just in case something happens? Gordon should have phoned Loeb and filled him in. This is just logical behavior, especially in the cell-phone age.

7. Bruce’s party

How does Bruce know of the triple threat to Dent/Loeb and the judge? There is no way he can know. If Gordon was going to call anyone, he would call Dent on his cell-phone to let him know, would he not? Dent has to have one, surely?! Batman is set in the cell phone age so the idea that Dent doesn’t have one is ridiculous. Also, Bruce was at the party with everyone else, so the chances of his listening to a police radio are slim at best. Besides, what would prompt him to be listening to police radio broadcasts in the middle of a party? On top of this, he manages to get to Dent and hide him seconds before the Joker appears. How convenient!

9. The Joker crashing Bruce’s party.

Why wait till Dent is at a party in Bruce Wayne’s penthouse *after* announcing to the world that Dent is a target? Of course, the whole thing is set-up so that the Joker can throw Rachel off the roof. This could have been written in a far more realistic way. People will argue that the Joker is an attention whore - okay, I can accept that to an extent, but it seems like a hell of a lot of trouble to go to find Dent when if he really wanted to kill Dent he could have done it in a far easier manner.

10. Rachel and Batman falling off the roof.

I can just about buy the fact that the fall was broken by Batman’s wings, but come on! No sign of any injury to Rachel? She wasn’t even winded. Ever so slightly beyond the realms of possibility I feel.

11. Fingerprints on the bullet sequence.

This doesn’t make sense because the fingerprint would be on the *shell casing* not the bullet itself! The bullet is encased in the shell-casing, which is discarded (along with fingerprints) when the bullet is fired. Furthermore, Bruce arrives in the room and finds those men tied up at the exact moment the shooting is going to take place. How convenient.

12. Commissioner Loeb’s funeral.

We’re expected to believe that with hundreds of Cops around and ridiculously tight security that the Joker managed to worm his way into the Police honour guard?! Didn’t anyone notice the guy with the huge scars on his face? Granted, it’s not beyond the realm of possibility, but with everyone *expecting* some kind of assassination attack and the Cops on alert, it’s just laughable that this could take place.

13. Gordon’s faked death.

Why would you put your family through the worst trauma imaginable when they were not even at risk?! Gordon says he faked his death because his family was at risk but this is utter nonsense. Why? Because the Joker thinks Gordon is dead. If he’s dead, he’s not a threat ergo his family is not at risk. Even if Gordon thought his family *could* be at risk, why not just get them out of the city and the state and into protective custody? Surely this is better than making them think he was dead?

14. The Gotham chase

Someone please explain exactly how a multi-tonne truck flips over so easily after snagging on some metal wire?! It’s a great action set-piece but once again it’s let down by bad writing in my view. Also, Batman has such prodigious control over the Bat-bike that he can execute a perfect 180 turn at speed using a wall as leverage, but when he’s charging the Joker he loses all control and flips the bike?! The Joker fires a bazooka missile at the SWAT van carrying Dent. If not for the tumbler getting in the way and taking the hit, Dent would have died. Again, this is all apparently part of the Joker’s fiendish plan to…get caught.

15. The Joker’s escape.

The Joker is Gotham’s most notorious and wanted criminal, yet they leave him *uncuffed* and guarded by a single Cop?! And of course, the Cop just happens to have a suspect temperament, which the Joker manipulates. If the Joker is in a locked room, why would there need to be a Cop inside the room with him?! Also, why was there no one stationed outside guarding the room? We can surmise that there wasn’t anyone guarding because if there was a fight going on, surely the guard would have heard it from outside? Again, everything happens at exactly the right time. All this is dependant upon having a single cop guarding the joker inside the room who loses his cool, allowing the Joker a chance to escape. And of course, the guy with a bomb in his stomach just happens to be captured and in jail at the exact time the Joker needs him.

16. The idea that the Joker ‘planned to be caught’.

After Rachel dies, Gordon is angry at himself and says ‘he wanted us to lock him up in the MCU’. So, let me get this straight: the massive chase scene through Gotham which culminated in Gordon capturing the Joker was really part of the Joker’s grand scheme as he ‘planned’ to get caught?! The Joker even explained *at length* that he was not someone who planned things, yet he is apparently the greatest criminal tactician that ever lived!

17. Reese revealing the true identity of Batman.

So, Reese goes on TV and says he’ll reveal the truth about Batman. Meanwhile, the scene is intercut with the Joker in a warehouse burning his half of the mob’s cash. Then, *in the very next scene*, the Joker is calling into the TV show and threatening to blow up a hospital if someone doesn’t kill Reese! How does the Joker go from burning money in a warehouse, to finding a TV, watching the show then calling up with his hospital threat in a matter of hours?

So, if the Joker decides to blow up a hospital in response to Reese’s TV ploy, how does he and his mob manage to rig the place with gas canisters and explosives *in broad daylight* without being seen? Come on! This is beyond ridiculous. And it’s not about suspension of disbelief, it’s about not treating your audience like morons. There is *no way* on earth that in this day and age of heightened security that an entire hospital could be rigged to blow in broad daylight and no one saw a thing! The entire building was pulverized – imagine the amount of explosives and petrol canisters needed to do that kind of damage. And again, what’s going on with the timeline? The Joker is burning money; somehow finds a TV to watch; calls in and threatens Reese; wires a hospital and visits Dent all in the space of the same day and seemingly within a few hours?

18. Sal Maroni’s confession.

After Gordon visits Dent, Maroni just happens to be in the hospital *right outside Dent’s room* and just happens to have an attack of conscience and tells Gordon where to find the Joker?!

19. Harvey Dent’s turn to the dark side.

For a start, the whole Dent story should have been saved for Part 3 instead of just being crammed into TDK. There wasn’t enough time to develop his fall into evil; it all happens in about 5 minutes. For 90 minutes, Dent is portrayed as this morally upstanding man of principle, but Dent goes from crime fighting golden boy with a an unshakeable dedication to doing good to a psychopathic murderer, and worse - potential child-murderer - in the space of 24 hours. Why? Because his girlfriend dies and he becomes disfigured? No, wait - it’s because the Joker - as well as being the greatest criminal tactician that ever lived - is also the greatest psychologist that ever lived, and a few lines of his cod philosophy at Dent’s bedside is enough to tip him over the edge and into child-murderer mindset.

20. Batman’s sonar scheme.

Lucius Fox says something along the lines of ‘You took my sonar concept and applied it to every phone in the city’. Someone explain to me how this is possible! Given the sonar technology has to be embedded in the phone itself (as we saw when Fox was in Hong Kong and left his sonar phone at security), are we expected to believe that Batman has the technology manually implanted into *every cell-phone in the city” – a city which, incidentally, has 30 million inhabitants, according to Fox. If it wasn’t manual, then how is this mass cell-phone scheme to be explained?

21. The ferry face-off.

When exactly did the Joker have time to rig two ferries with 100 barrels of fuel without anyone noticing? The whole idea is completely laughable and unrealistic, with no concern for the logistics of how something like that would be set up. Once again, for the sake of a ‘cool’ scene, the writers threw logic out of the window. But of course, the Joker is such a genius criminal, he planned this down to the last details (despite apparently now being a ‘planner’).

22. Batman’s sonar vision.

When batman faces the Joker, his sonar vision momentarily fails and this causes him to lose his bearings, allowing the Joker to attack. Why?! Earlier on in the sequence, *Batman switches between sonar vision and normal vision*. When the sonar fails, why doesn’t he just use his own vision?!

23. The Joker overpowering Batman.

After Batman’s sonar vision fails, the Joker somehow beats the crap out of Batman and manages to hold him down with a steel bar. Given the fact that Batman has been portrayed as almost superhuman for the preceding two hours (including easily subduing the Joker during interrogation), how is it possible that all of a sudden the Joker is stronger. In Batman begins, BW takes on about 20+ ninjas and none of them get the better of him. In TDK, all it takes to down Batman is steel bar and couple of rottweilers!

24. Dent at the hospital

After being marked for death, almost killed and then disfigured, why is Dent left alone at the hospital with no one guarding him?

25. Poor editing

i) How did the Joker leave the party after Batman and Rachel went off the roof? Dent is still locked in a cupboard somewhere and lots of party guests at risk. Should this not have been tied up with perhaps a five second shot? ii) The Joker taunts the cop guarding him and goads him into a fight. Cut to the next scene, the Joker has him as a hostage. Why cut out the scene with *how* he overpowered this guy? Surely this would be a scene than fans want to see?! iii) Dent and Rachel are kidnapped by the Joker’s henchmen. Why didn’t we see it? Again, we are just told it happened instead being shown what happened.

26. The kidnapping of Dent

It is standard police procedure to allow a senior public figure whose life has been threatened to go to visit his girlfriend seconds after being pursued by a madman hellbent on killing him? Is it also good police practice to let him go without any kind of police escort. The fact that the Joker’s vast network of henchmen were *not* captured and may still pose a threat did not seem to matter.

27. Gordon’s negligence

i) The new Police Commissioner has the apparent foresight to fake his own death, but he cannot foresee the possibility that the joker may try and escape. Of course, there’s no way anyone could have predicted the Joker might have some nefarious plan up his sleeve. After all, it’s not like he’d planned anything up to that point in the story. ii) Gordon botches the security job of protecting the Mayor *big time*. iii) Gordon allows the city’s most dangerous criminal to be guarded by a single cop. This is after he’s gone to great lengths to capture the Joker! And let’s not forget, at this point, Gordon is not Police Commissioner. The buck stops with him, and the way the Joker was guarded would have been down to him.

iv) So full of self-congratulatory bravado, Gordon just let’s Dent leave the scene of the Joker’s capture without assigning any police escorts, thus leading to Dent being kidnapped. v) Gordon just swallows the ‘let’s blame it all on Batman’ idea without question, ignoring the fact that the so-called 5 deaths could easily be blamed on any of the Joker’s henchmen. Gordon is too busy with composing his poetic monologue to actually think like a Cop.

28. Pointless ending

The film tries to make Batman into a mythical anti-hero with his sacrifice at the end, but the whole thing is moot really - Batman will be ‘hunted’ for about 10 minutes and then he’ll be Bruce Wayne again, so he won’t be in any danger! Anyway - what has changed since the beginning of the film? Gordon tells Dent that the official policy is to ‘arrest the vigilante known as Batman on sight’. Is this not the same situation at the end of the film?!

29. Lau’s immunity to the effects of fire

Lau doesn’t even scream whilst he’s being burnt alive!

30. Evacuation of the hospital

If you examine how things take place within the timeframe of the movie, it appears that entire hospital (Gotham’s biggest) was seemingly evacuated within the space of a few hours. i) The Joker calls into the TV show saying he’ll blow up a hospital. This happens during the day. ii) Seconds later, Gordon hears this and barks orders about evacuating the hospital. iii) A scene or two later, we find the hospital pretty much evacuated and *surprise surprise*, Dent is the only person left! The point here is, it’s still daytime, so the evacuation of such a huge hospital took no time at all apparently. Not realistic AT ALL. Not even slightly comic-book realistic.

31. Maroni’s miraculous recovery.

Batman throws Maroni to the street from 3 stories up. We hear the crunch as he lands feet first. Literally a day or so later, Maroni is walking easily with just the use a cane. No plaster cast or anything like that.

32. Dent and Maroni crash

Dent has Maroni trapped in his car, and instead of shooting Maroni, he kills the driver of the car, causing huge crash?! Half of Dent’s face is melted off and he must be in serious pain, yet he decides the best way to further his goal is to cause a car crash in which he could conceivably be killed?!

33. The Joker’s philosophy

As the Joker explains to Dent at the hospital, he doesn’t have a plan. He goes into detail about how he detests people with plans and how he’s all about chaos and anarchy. But wait, everything in the film completely negates his character because the story paints him as the greatest criminal tactician and planning mastermind that ever lived! For him to control *everything* to such a degree and have everything work *perfectly * with no mistakes, despite lots unforeseen events taking place, means that he must have planned everything to last detail. This is the reasoning of those defend the Joker’s apparent omnipotence, but it conflicts with his own philosophy! I’m sorry, but this is terrible writing.

34. The Scarecrow

Ridiculous treatment of the character after BB. made him into some weak caricature. When he stepped out of the van wearing the scarecrow mask, it just seemed out of place. And his dialogue was lame. Cut out the whole section and get on with story already. It was imperative we see that scene but not important to see how the Joker escaped the party/Dent and Rachel being kidnapped?

[The Lady of Shadows]

so let me guess feev. . .you agree completely. right?

all i have to say is that this guy doesn't get that the joker is a psychopathic liar and a sociopath.

[fernandito]

Some of them are half-valid, but most of them are just angry statements from some pissed off over-analyzer whos probably angry because his favorite movie (Battlefield Earth) didn't make any money at the box office.

[The Lady of Shadows]

hehehehehehehe

you said "battlefield earth"

like it was a real movie

that's funny

[Ricky]

yeah, if you could find that post i would appreciate it cause i don't get it.

and dude, you so threw over matt's quote for hannah's. see, i knew you were a stalker at heart!!!!!!!

about the movie, i'm not sure where you are either (i'll have to give you a turtle geography lesson some day ) but i'd say one of us is in for a drive probably. but that's cool my mini turtle loves road trips!

I couldn't find the post (I saw it after it first came out) but I found one that might answer the question of the 5 people that Harvey killed:

In the theatrical release, many posters here are correct that we only saw him actually shoot and kill 2 people - the corrupt cop at the bar along with the mob driver for the "Italian".

However, the theatrical version was unfortunately (believe it or not) cut back for time. At this moment, Christopher Nolan is working on a new extended 3-hour cut which apparently will show Two-Face killing more people, evidently 2 more regular people (likely criminals) and 1 more cop.

That's probably the best answer out there right now--they cut out the footage for time's sake. I'll bet that we'll see the other 3 murders on the Director's Cut.

As for that list that feev posted, it's obvious that people have too much time on their hands and use it to continue to bash excellent movies. I'm guessing all that hot air from living in their parents' basement is getting to their heads. 90% of those points are obviously made out of personal dislike for the movie. The other 10% are valid points that were not weaving well with the storyline.

Ok, I'm going to stop here...I could go on all day.

[theBeamisHome]

feev, i couldn't even go thru the whole list... why is it that people want entertaining movies to be like documentaries or something? it's not supposed to be realistic!!! how realistic is it that a guy will don a cape and some ultra cool gadgets and weaponry to fight crime by night because of a trauma from when he was like 9??? i mean seriously!

like someone else said... too much time on their hands. and not enough appreciation for a really good movie.. and like feev said, some of the complaints were valid, but the fact that the movie is based on a comic book sort of negates those also.

[The Lady of Shadows]

thanks ricky! and wow - a director's cut. that would be so awesome. but of course we wouldn't see feev on the board for like a month after it came out. . . .

[Ricky]

No problem, turtle. I'm eager for the Director's Cut as well. If Nolan chooses to do one, it's going to be spectacular.

As of right now, I am trying to get a ride to see it again over the weekend.

[Girlystevedave]

"NO MORE DEAD COPS!!"

[The Lady of Shadows]

ooooooooookay. feeling a little hormonal amanda?













how many of your friends have i killed?

[Girlystevedave]

No, I'm good. Just felt like yelling that out.

[Ricky]

how many of your friends have i killed?

"Do you wanna know...why I use a knife?"

[fernandito]

"You can't savor all the...little emotions."

[Ricky]

"Do you want to know which of your friends were cowards?"

[fernandito]

"See this, is how CRAZY Batman has made Gotham! You want order restored? Then Batman must take off his mask, and turn himself in....Oh, and everyday he doesn't, people will die....I'm a man of my wordddd...HEHAHAHAHA!"

[Girlystevedave]

"Do I look like a guy with a plan? I'm like a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do if I caught it!"

[Ricky]

Wait, are we doing misc. quotes or quotes in order of appearance in the film?

[fernandito]

Random quotes


"Where's Dent?
....what's the time?
What does that have to do with anything?
Well, depending on the time, he may be in one spot or several."

[Ricky]

That's one of my favorites!

"See, I'm a man of simple tastes. I like dynamite...and gunpowder...and gasoline! Do you know what all of these things have in common? They're cheap!"

[fernandito]

(burns his half)
"I'm only burning my half....all you care about is money. This town deserves a better class of criminal, and I"m gonna give it to them. Tell your men, they work for me now.
They won't work....for a freak.
Well, why don't we feed you to one of your pooches? Then we'll see how loyal a hungry dog, really is!!"

[The Lady of Shadows]

The criminals in this town used to believe in things. Honor. Respect. Look at you! What do you believe in? What do you believe in!

italics and emphasis mine own say thankya!

[Ricky]

What do you believe in!

I believe in Harvey Dent!!!

[fernandito]

Nice!