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  1. #1751
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanHocker View Post

    To be fair here. Justice League didn't do bad at the box office. $229 mil domestically is not a bad take. It still brought in more money than most of the movies that came out last year. The problem is that our idea of what these superhero movies should do is skewed so highly by how extrordinarily successful Avengers and the Marvel movies have been.

    I'm not gonna defend Justice League's quality though. I had fun with it, but the movie as a whole was a mess. I don't really think that was a fault of the lack of leadup though. Mostly I think it was a "too many cooks" situation. You have 2 different directors, a number of rewrites, and if rumor is to be believed a ton of studio executive interference. That just tends to lead to poor results.

    As far as the movies themselves go, I liked Man of Steel and Wonder Woman a lot. BvS I think was good, but kinda had too many sub plots going on. Suicide Squad was trash, and Justice League was decidedly mediocre. The movie really suffered from a bland "end of the world" villain more than anything else.

    Justice League was a box office mess. It barely made them any money. Budget plus Prints and Advertising - theatre take = almost no profit...they might have even lost money. Your big group superhero movie, your Avengers, shouldn't make less than your lesser movies. And it most definitely shouldn't be your lowest grossing film in a franchise.



    Batman v Superman: 330 domestic; 873M worldwide
    Wonder Woman: 412M domestic; 821M worldwide
    Suicide Squad: 325 domestic; 746M worldwide
    Man of Steel: 291M domestic; 668M worldwide

    Justice League: 229M domestic; 657M worldwide

    The varied directors, studio interference etc, is just another facet of Warner Brothers mucking it up. They rushed it, they had creative differences, they interfered, rewrote scripts...that's just poor. The MCU has released 21 films and never fired a director during actual production or brought in another director to do reshoots. Warner Brothers and Lucasfilm need to sort their stuff out, because they're literally destroying their own chances. And dwindling box office returns, poor critical reviews (Wonder Woman aside), and audiences that just don't care...that's not good.
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  2. #1752
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanHocker View Post

    To be fair here. Justice League didn't do bad at the box office. $229 mil domestically is not a bad take. It still brought in more money than most of the movies that came out last year. The problem is that our idea of what these superhero movies should do is skewed so highly by how extrordinarily successful Avengers and the Marvel movies have been.

    I'm not gonna defend Justice League's quality though. I had fun with it, but the movie as a whole was a mess. I don't really think that was a fault of the lack of leadup though. Mostly I think it was a "too many cooks" situation. You have 2 different directors, a number of rewrites, and if rumor is to be believed a ton of studio executive interference. That just tends to lead to poor results.

    As far as the movies themselves go, I liked Man of Steel and Wonder Woman a lot. BvS I think was good, but kinda had too many sub plots going on. Suicide Squad was trash, and Justice League was decidedly mediocre. The movie really suffered from a bland "end of the world" villain more than anything else.

    Justice League was a box office mess. It barely made them any money. Budget plus Prints and Advertising - theatre take = almost no profit...they might have even lost money. Your big group superhero movie, your Avengers, shouldn't make less than your lesser movies. And it most definitely shouldn't be your lowest grossing film in a franchise.



    Batman v Superman: 330 domestic; 873M worldwide
    Wonder Woman: 412M domestic; 821M worldwide
    Suicide Squad: 325 domestic; 746M worldwide
    Man of Steel: 291M domestic; 668M worldwide

    Justice League: 229M domestic; 657M worldwide

    The varied directors, studio interference etc, is just another facet of Warner Brothers mucking it up. They rushed it, they had creative differences, they interfered, rewrote scripts...that's just poor. The MCU has released 21 films and never fired a director during actual production or brought in another director to do reshoots. Warner Brothers and Lucasfilm need to sort their stuff out, because they're literally destroying their own chances. And dwindling box office returns, poor critical reviews (Wonder Woman aside), and audiences that just don't care...that's not good.
    I'm not really disagreeing here. That said if you look at other superhero movies released in November, you'll find the box office take fairly similar. It's not really good enough for what should be your big tent pole movie, but give the reception of BvS and the release date it's not surprising.

    I'm not really sure I can get behind your inclusion of Lucasfilm here though. They've only bombed one movie so far, and it really wasn't the fault of the movie itself. Solo was "fine" it was great, it was bad. It's poor performance comes down to bad marketing, and even worse positioning. There's no way that movie should've been soo close to Deadpool 2 and Infinity War. They should've shoved it in the winter time like they did with Rouge One. Say what you will about The Last Jedi, that movie still crushed it at the box office.

    Also while maybe not during actual filming Marvel did fire Edgar Wright about as close to actual filming as it could be. Also for what it's worth they didn't fire Zack Snyder. Zack Snyder stepped down because his son died and he and his wife need time to cope with that and be with family.

  3. #1753
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  4. #1754
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  5. #1755
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanHocker View Post

    I'm not really disagreeing here. That said if you look at other superhero movies released in November, you'll find the box office take fairly similar. It's not really good enough for what should be your big tent pole movie, but give the reception of BvS and the release date it's not surprising.

    I'm not really sure I can get behind your inclusion of Lucasfilm here though. They've only bombed one movie so far, and it really wasn't the fault of the movie itself. Solo was "fine" it was great, it was bad. It's poor performance comes down to bad marketing, and even worse positioning. There's no way that movie should've been soo close to Deadpool 2 and Infinity War. They should've shoved it in the winter time like they did with Rouge One. Say what you will about The Last Jedi, that movie still crushed it at the box office.

    Also while maybe not during actual filming Marvel did fire Edgar Wright about as close to actual filming as it could be. Also for what it's worth they didn't fire Zack Snyder. Zack Snyder stepped down because his son died and he and his wife need time to cope with that and be with family.

    Solo's performance wasn't necessarily it's positioning. That didn't help it, but that's been the defense for people in denial of franchise fatigue and that a lot of people didn't like the last three star wars movies. Many people made the point not to see Solo to prove to Disney they won't buy anything just because it has a brand logo stamped on it. I don't think Solo would've done much better positioned anywhere else on the slate, especially when you think all the other big movies released around that time, even smaller movies, all got their money...pretty much all movies did except for Solo. Lucasfilm was included because they are doing too much too fast and simultaneously not doing near enough at the same time, which these DC movies have been guilty of as well. Very similar situations...though the WB side with DCEU is far more reeking of desperation, and the Lucasfilm side reeking of overconfidence.
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  6. #1756
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanHocker View Post

    I'm not really disagreeing here. That said if you look at other superhero movies released in November, you'll find the box office take fairly similar. It's not really good enough for what should be your big tent pole movie, but give the reception of BvS and the release date it's not surprising.

    I'm not really sure I can get behind your inclusion of Lucasfilm here though. They've only bombed one movie so far, and it really wasn't the fault of the movie itself. Solo was "fine" it was great, it was bad. It's poor performance comes down to bad marketing, and even worse positioning. There's no way that movie should've been soo close to Deadpool 2 and Infinity War. They should've shoved it in the winter time like they did with Rouge One. Say what you will about The Last Jedi, that movie still crushed it at the box office.

    Also while maybe not during actual filming Marvel did fire Edgar Wright about as close to actual filming as it could be. Also for what it's worth they didn't fire Zack Snyder. Zack Snyder stepped down because his son died and he and his wife need time to cope with that and be with family.

    Solo's performance wasn't necessarily it's positioning. That didn't help it, but that's been the defense for people in denial of franchise fatigue and that a lot of people didn't like the last three star wars movies. Many people made the point not to see Solo to prove to Disney they won't buy anything just because it has a brand logo stamped on it. I don't think Solo would've done much better positioned anywhere else on the slate, especially when you think all the other big movies released around that time, even smaller movies, all got their money...pretty much all movies did except for Solo. Lucasfilm was included because they are doing too much too fast and simultaneously not doing near enough at the same time, which these DC movies have been guilty of as well. Very similar situations...though the WB side with DCEU is far more reeking of desperation, and the Lucasfilm side reeking of overconfidence.
    I wrote a whole long response to this but the web browser decided to delete it before I could post it.

    Just to sum though without retyping everything. It wasn't just positioning, it was marketing as much as positioning. Because of how close it ended up being to 8 what would be the normal marketing push cycles overlapped so they didn't push solo the way they did say Rouge One. Positioning didn't help though either.

    I also don't buy franchise fatigue. Everyone's been saying that about Marvel from the start everytime a movie under performs or under reviews, but they're going stronger than every with 2 to 3 movies a year. I just can't seen Star Wars franchise fatigue after 4 movies in 4 years. Now if episode 9 really under performs than maybe I'll agree with you and say maybe the general public isn't interested in Star Wars anymore, but I just don't think we've seen enough to call Solo's poor performance due to franchise fatigue.

  7. #1757
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  8. #1758
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanHocker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrick View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanHocker View Post

    I'm not really disagreeing here. That said if you look at other superhero movies released in November, you'll find the box office take fairly similar. It's not really good enough for what should be your big tent pole movie, but give the reception of BvS and the release date it's not surprising.

    I'm not really sure I can get behind your inclusion of Lucasfilm here though. They've only bombed one movie so far, and it really wasn't the fault of the movie itself. Solo was "fine" it was great, it was bad. It's poor performance comes down to bad marketing, and even worse positioning. There's no way that movie should've been soo close to Deadpool 2 and Infinity War. They should've shoved it in the winter time like they did with Rouge One. Say what you will about The Last Jedi, that movie still crushed it at the box office.

    Also while maybe not during actual filming Marvel did fire Edgar Wright about as close to actual filming as it could be. Also for what it's worth they didn't fire Zack Snyder. Zack Snyder stepped down because his son died and he and his wife need time to cope with that and be with family.

    Solo's performance wasn't necessarily it's positioning. That didn't help it, but that's been the defense for people in denial of franchise fatigue and that a lot of people didn't like the last three star wars movies. Many people made the point not to see Solo to prove to Disney they won't buy anything just because it has a brand logo stamped on it. I don't think Solo would've done much better positioned anywhere else on the slate, especially when you think all the other big movies released around that time, even smaller movies, all got their money...pretty much all movies did except for Solo. Lucasfilm was included because they are doing too much too fast and simultaneously not doing near enough at the same time, which these DC movies have been guilty of as well. Very similar situations...though the WB side with DCEU is far more reeking of desperation, and the Lucasfilm side reeking of overconfidence.
    I wrote a whole long response to this but the web browser decided to delete it before I could post it.

    Just to sum though without retyping everything. It wasn't just positioning, it was marketing as much as positioning. Because of how close it ended up being to 8 what would be the normal marketing push cycles overlapped so they didn't push solo the way they did say Rouge One. Positioning didn't help though either.

    I also don't buy franchise fatigue. Everyone's been saying that about Marvel from the start everytime a movie under performs or under reviews, but they're going stronger than every with 2 to 3 movies a year. I just can't seen Star Wars franchise fatigue after 4 movies in 4 years. Now if episode 9 really under performs than maybe I'll agree with you and say maybe the general public isn't interested in Star Wars anymore, but I just don't think we've seen enough to call Solo's poor performance due to franchise fatigue.
    You both make great points.

    I'd also like to add that a possible factor for Star Wars' - I don't want to say decline because it's still performing very well - but rather the reason that its not demolishing the box office lately is that it is no longer alone at the summit of premiere science fiction - franchise story telling. The MCU has satiated many people's appetites for large scale, blockbuster narratives so there is no longer this pressing need to go out and watch the latest Star Wars film right away.

    Also, say what you will about the frequency of MCU films but they have a clear, singular focus and a baseline quality to its approach. Kevin Feige does not get the recognition he deserves for Godfathering this MASSIVE universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Girlystevedave View Post
    I'm just nodding my head the whole time thinking "ok, stop now, please."

  9. #1759
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  10. #1760
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    So excited for this


  11. #1761
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  12. #1762
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    One of the best films of the 21st century, real talk.
    In time, you will know what it's like to lose. To feel so desperately that you're right. Yet to fail all the same.
    Dread it. Run from it. Destiny still arrives.


    Quote Originally Posted by Girlystevedave View Post
    I'm just nodding my head the whole time thinking "ok, stop now, please."

  13. #1763
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    Quote Originally Posted by Girlystevedave View Post
    I'm just nodding my head the whole time thinking "ok, stop now, please."

  14. #1764
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    NOT confirmed. This is just a rumor and I am not 100% that I buy it.. either way... The DCU is a pile of rubbish now Aquaman looks brutal, hate Flash... Affleck is in rehab and done. If Cavil is done? Then the DCU IS TOO
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  15. #1765
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    I welcome it, if true. And this is coming from someone who really liked Batman vs. Superman a lot. But it's no way to go about a cinematic universe. That's why the Justice League movie, while fairly enjoyable, didn't work. Aquaman looks fun and so does Shazam, and I'm sure Wonder Woman will be back to her bad-ass glory. They really have no other option than to use Flash and do a reboot of Batman and Superman. Not necessarily with the first Flash movie, even, no rush.

  16. #1766
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    Quote Originally Posted by mae View Post
    I welcome it, if true. And this is coming from someone who really liked Batman vs. Superman a lot. But it's no way to go about a cinematic universe. That's why the Justice League movie, while fairly enjoyable, didn't work. Aquaman looks fun and so does Shazam, and I'm sure Wonder Woman will be back to her bad-ass glory. They really have no other option than to use Flash and do a reboot of Batman and Superman. Not necessarily with the first Flash movie, even, no rush.
    I agree... start fresh. SIGN NOBODYS.... I knew Affleck would do this. I think I said that eons ago. Suprised about Henry C... but leave the ship. It is sinking... I loved Batman and Superman.... the actors were perfect and my favs.. other than Christoper Reeves will never be topped as Superman.
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  17. #1767
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  18. #1768
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    DCEU can only hurt HC at this point. He probably learned during his Shazam cameo negotiations that MOS2 is about as likely as that new GnR album we waited for through the entire 1990s. I thought he was a spot on casting with disappointing movies.

    Guess WB can now just CGI HC into the whole movie instead of CGI out his moustache.

    I hope marvel hires him....

  19. #1769
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    Some more good Superman discussion here:


  20. #1770
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    Well the DC Universe streaming service is up and running though the actual live launch is this Saturday (Batman Day), check this out: https://www.dcuniverse.com/

  21. #1771
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