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Thread: White and Crimson

  1. #26
    Psychopath William50 is on a distinguished road William50's Avatar

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    So is the color of the rose signifigant at all, or is it just red for no reason?
    I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. - Edgar Allan Poe

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    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    Default Origins of White and Red (spoilers)

    Anyone know if there was a reason behind the colors being the crimson and the white? I mean I'm just curious because he could have picked any colors, purple and pink, black and white, etc.,. I didn't remember a reference.

    All I can think of is Alice and Wonderland with the red queen and the white queen...

    But any help would be appreciated, and if there's not a quote, maybe someone has an idea why!

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    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    I must confess that I just made a thread about this topic. Please ignore my origins of white and red...

  4. #29
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    and as for my saying about the red and white all I can think of is the white and the red queens from alice and wonderland

  5. #30
    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    *Moves post into this thread then*

    Red and black are widely considered to be the colors of "wickedness" in Western society. It seems that King formulated his idea for Los from the song In the Court of the Crimson King used in Insomnia first and worked from there.
    I really don't think King spent a lot of time going over things philosophically with the Dark Tower series (and with other of his books) things would come to him at spurts and he worked with it.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  6. #31
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    We think alike, dearest Liz.

    Roland would have understood.

  7. #32
    Gunslinger Apprentice LemurJones is on a distinguished road

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    I found the color symbolism to be really interesting. I know a little bit about color symbolism in some of the ancient pagan and occult religions and societies, and red and white are two very important (and opposite) colors in some of them. White generally represented masculine power, and scholarly knowledge and lore. (Like things you learn from reading books or math or somesuch.) Red represented feminine power, and knowledge that was gained from personal insight and the natural world. They were BOTH good and necessary, but different from each other.

    It was interesting to me, to say the least- it made any scenes with the Crimson King feel like I was watching a drag show or something, for one- and I find it intriguing to apply what I've learned from reading about the colors as symbols in other cultures to the books. I can see the Crimson King as being a representation of the red because (at least when we meet him) he is ruled by emotion instead of rational thought, pursues chaos instead of order, lashes out without planning or thinking ahead, and is this viscerally physical figure. Whereas Roland can be described as an agent of the white because (through a lot of the quest, anyway) he ignores his emotions to follow his plans, he pursues order, and he is the masculine stereotype. (the cowboy, the loner, etc.)

    This makes me see the story as not being a war between the "right" side of the white and the "wrong" side of the red, but a struggle to restore balance between the two. If it had been Roland instead of the Crimson King, the universe would have been in just as much mortal peril.
    "I just know that something good is going to happen."
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  8. #33
    Roont jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    This makes me see the story as not being a war between the "right" side of the white and the "wrong" side of the red, but a struggle to restore balance between the two.
    Interesting observations indeed Lemur

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    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    Yes, good post Lemur

  10. #35
    Gunslinger Apprentice LemurJones is on a distinguished road

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    :3 it happens about once every three months.
    "I just know that something good is going to happen."
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  11. #36
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    :3 it happens about once every three months.
    You should come here more often.

    Roland would have understood.

  12. #37
    Gunslinger Apprentice LemurJones is on a distinguished road

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    Nuh uh, you'd get tired of all the lemur fur I'd be leaving around the place, and of having small creatures hiding under your furniture.

    <3
    "I just know that something good is going to happen."
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    This makes me see the story as not being a war between the "right" side of the white and the "wrong" side of the red, but a struggle to restore balance between the two.
    Interesting observations indeed Lemur
    hear, hear!

    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    :3 it happens about once every three months.
    gr gr gr
    wish Lemur would make it once every three weeks, at the rarest. Once every three days would be optimum, but only because once three hours might exhaust little Lemur

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    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  14. #39
    Gunslinger Apprentice LemurJones is on a distinguished road

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    Lemurs can try to come around more to say relevant things >.>

    <.<
    "I just know that something good is going to happen."
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  15. #40
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker has a spectacular aura about LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    We enjoy relevant and irrelevant lemurs *huggles*

  16. #41
    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerak View Post
    insurance industries have done studies and red cars get in to more accidents because the drivers tend to be more aggressive.

    I also associate red with anger
    red cars get more tickets as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    Nuh uh, you'd get tired of all the lemur fur I'd be leaving around the place, and of having small creatures hiding under your furniture.

    <3
    how could anyone get tired of our precious lemur. i always look under the lemurcouch in the castle to see if you're hiding there. you never are though.

  17. #42
    Rabid Billybumbler Ruthful is on a distinguished road Ruthful's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Plus, traditionally, the devil is thought to be red.
    What about all of those Renaissance era paintings where he's blue? Isn't the deepest circle of Hell supposedly a pit of ice?

  18. #43
    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthful View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    Plus, traditionally, the devil is thought to be red.
    What about all of those Renaissance era paintings where he's blue? Isn't the deepest circle of Hell supposedly a pit of ice?
    yes, according to dante it is.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    and as for my saying about the red and white all I can think of is the white and the red queens from alice and wonderland
    Yes, Through the Looking Glass uses chess pieces for characters. If we researched the origins of color choices for that game, that might shed some more light on this topic.

    (Also, I think it'd be safe to say that Lewis Carroll's Red King influenced Stephen King's. May even have inspired him: The Red King from Alice famously symbolises the world as a dream; she was warned that she and all she knew would vanish if the Red King woke up... kind of like what the CK wants to do by destroying the Tower.)

    Anyroad, I do believe that fire and ice are the key symbols behind traditional contrasts of red and white. In some cultures, white is negative. Norse myth speaks of the damned freezing in Hel. Today, that's more often thought of as burning, a concept that may well have spread along with the Western religions from the people of the Middle East. However, for some, what red fire represents is life.

    I agree that there is some paradox in all of this, but I don't think that King really intended the fact of various interpretations of the colors to imply a serious theme in DT.
    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    ...This makes me see the story as not being a war between the "right" side of the white and the "wrong" side of the red, but a struggle to restore balance between the two. If it had been Roland instead of the Crimson King, the universe would have been in just as much mortal peril.
    I don't really see it that way, LJ, but you do make a very interesting argument. (Nice to see you, BTW! It's been a long time since we've talked.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    For me red is absolutely positive. (so is blood)
    Sure, but the negative originates in the SIGHT of blood. That definitely is a big reason why the color is associated with violence and death. King first described a contrast between natural death and Death as a supernatural horror in Pet Semetary. I think that black would better stand for the former; it seems to imply oblivion and/or the unknown more than it does outright malevolence. Distinguishing evil death was greatly expanded upon in Insomnia, and I think it's clear that that novel's concepts of Purpose and Random directly correspond to TDT's White and Red. "The Red" is an aggressive chaos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    would it have invoked the same image if he had been the "green" king? …
    Interestingly, there IS a Green King in the novels. RF. That phrase was used in the latter part of Wizard and Glass remember? In fact, that image was pretty creepy, too, somehow.
    Last edited by pathoftheturtle; 07-25-2008 at 11:03 AM. Reason: the Red King

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    For me red is absolutely positive. (so is blood)

    Blood is positive as long as it flows through your veins - it's when it flows out of your veins when it represents BAD!!!!

    Another bad symble of Red - The book "The Scarlet Letter" comes to mind.

    And in the US it has been statistically proven that if you drive a Red car you are more apt to get a speeding ticket, as Red cars stick out like a sore thumb.

    Gee that makes me think more - when you have an infection your skin gets puffy and red - not a good sign, if there is no Keflex to be found! :-)

    DOn't get me wrong I do like Red. My dream car is a 1968 Chevy Camaro convertible that is Candy Apple Red! Google Image it and you will see my dream car.

    Also good - Apples and Watermelon and Tomatoes - see red can be good and it can be bad -

    Another bad - Red Fire Ants! Damn they can bit the hell out of you.

    OK I better stop typing as I keep thinking of more Red references! :-)

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    White swans... white doves...

    red ... firetrucks?

  22. #47
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    red stop signs?

  23. #48
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    I know that in many cases blood can mean something really bad. When we get shot.. and with our blood life leaves our body, too but it's not the fault of blood.. okay before you think me absolutely crazy all I wanted to write is that maybe blood is so positive to me because it's one of the favourite words of my forever favourite poet and since I know it (since I read a report wher he had said it to the reporter) blood became something so beautiful in my mind even if I know it can mean death as well.
    I hope you don't mind me writing down these feelings in fact this thread is about these colours.

    Roland would have understood.

  24. #49
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    I understand that totally, Letti, and personally do not mind a bit to hear more on your feelings. I was just speculating on the origins of mainstream ideas on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by LemurJones View Post
    ...I know a little bit about color symbolism in some of the ancient pagan and occult religions and societies... Red represented feminine power, and knowledge that was gained from personal insight and the natural world. ...good and necessary, but different from (White)...
    Sure. Truthfully, blood flow is not always BAD, either. It is bloodshed that's problematic. (Well, that, plus the fact that it is blood rushing to our heads is really why we "see red" when mad or hopped up on aggression.) Both seen nature, I guess, but I bet the focus on these factors did stem from ancient male preoccupations.

  25. #50
    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    but historically, bloodshed wasn't considered a bad idea was it? i mean, doctors would bleed people for certain illnesses. and leeches (eeeeewww) are used even today for certain things because of their delicacy and their draining ability. i know it's gross but it is true.

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