Tull *possible spoilers*

[Brainslinger]

I agree, being weak minded was their main fault whatever their other issues.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Why did he kill Alice? I still don't get it. I rather liked her. She just wanted love... kind of reminded me of myself in that situation.

[The Lady of Shadows]

she was being held by one of the townspeople and was asking for roland to kill her because she had said the secret word to nort and he (nort) had told her what walter had told him and it was driving her mad.

at least that's the way i read it.

any other theories.

[Brice]

Well, in the revised that's true, but in the original it's more ambiguous and doesn't really allow for that answer as the whole 19 thing is outside of that. I think in the original it is a matter of him just being in that zone where everything he sees dies. That and the fact that his brief relationship with Allie seems somewhat less developed.

[sarah]

Yeah, I agree with Brice. When you're a gunslinger and you're in that zone (or zonie? ) Roland just does what his instincts tell him to do.

[Darkthoughts]

Agreed, although (in the original) I think SK also had him kill her so that the reader would realise what kind of man Roland was at that point. That he was utterly ruthless and merciless and not easily affected by human contact...thus to pave the way for what a revelation the closeness he felt to Jake was. And so that we would know how huge a sacrifice it was for him to drop Jake, which also let us know just how big a deal the Tower was to him.

[LadyHitchhiker]

I guess I must be rereading the unrevised, because it's one I bought at a garage sale since mine are in kansas in some stoner hippie's possession. But it still didn't make sense to me after reading the whole series other than proving that point.

[Letti]

He killed him because he was a killing machine at that time.

[LadyHitchhiker]

Do you think he would have still killed Alice if he had dropped Jake first? After having met Jake and opened his heart would he be able to just kill her that easily?

[Letti]

I don't think he could open his heart to Jake, either. If he could he closed it very quickly when he chose the Man in Black istead of the boy. So yes, I think he would have killed Alice the same way after having met Jake.

[Jean]

do you remember his dream, the one with which The Drawing of the Three opens? He was not the same after meeting Jake, it's an absolutely different man than what we saw in The Gunslinger.

[LadyHitchhiker]

That was my opinion as well, Jean. I think he scarred himself dropping Jake.

[Letti]

Yes, he was different. He took some really important steps but somehow I feel he wasn't ready yet to be able to stop himself when he grabbed his gun. I might be wrong.

[Doc_Gamecock]

I think throughout the entire series Roland has a choice early on, in many situations, to stop things before they get out of control. He tends to know/understand more than the ppl around him in regards to the "big picture" of the world. In Tull, this manifests itself when he visits the preacher woman and finds out about the question the bartender needs to ask of the weed-chewing guy that was resurrected.
It seems like he knew the fat preacher lady was a huge cancer in the town and he should have killed her right off. He probably should ahve killed the weed-eater right off as a mercy kill to spare him his continued existence and save the rest of Tull.
Roland tends to favor choice. He allows everyone to choose their own path even though he knows a better or quicker way to deal with things. He favors allowing ppl to discover new thigns on their own terms if they choose to do so. He chooses to react instead of be proactive or preventative. He then only reacts when his hand is forced and his back is against the wall.
Some of this may be in part to him understanding the dangers and knowing he can overcome them, or the fact that he's simply apathetic to anything that doesn't specifically deal in his search with the tower. Perhaps he views it all as a test for him and navigates it as best as he can.
Roland sees things for what they are and knew from the beginning that the preacher woman was a problem in that town and would likely cause him problems. It was within his power to kill her and he chose not to. He just lets things come as they will.

[Whitey Appleseed]

I'm reading the original, read the revised several times. I'd read this thread earlier and figured to come back and post. Didn't seem like Roland had a choice in the matter. Seems like he had to kill, or be killed. The trap had been set. I guess he wasn't in the holiday spirit.

One idea that's kinda interesting is the 'cosmic comic'. Walter. Don't know if you want me to take some returnables from other King stuff and drop them on the counter here, so I'll wrap the next in a spoiler, from Insomnia,

insomnia

when Ralph, or someone else...doesn't matter, really, but they are thinking about the Three Wise Men. Never considered it, really, like these three (usually the number given) wise men go to a king and ask to see another one, born king...but how wise could they be to do something like that...and I think the suggestion is that there's another force out there, the 'cosmic comic', if you will, influencing things...good/evil...and the cosmic comic.

And then comes the battle in Tull. And something else I noticed this time through. They've already been conditioned for it by Walter, and Sylvia, their mindset has been prepped. Notice how many of them are grinning? Just before Sylvia makes the scene, there is this: 'they halted for a moment, startled, the mob face shivering into individual, bewildered faces.'

I think the operative word there is bewildered. And to understand that I have to haul in another bag of returnables and drop them on the counter. I'll take one from The Shining.

shining

After Wendy finds Jack and wakes him from the fugue state she found him in--this after he busts up the radio--he is described as bewildered. A kind of possession, maybe.

Maybe Roland could have turned and walked away from Tull at that point. But Sylvia rallies them, a second kind of possession, group-think. What gets me about the scene is Nort, both before and after, and how that relates to the story, other than Nort being a weed-eater, dies, etc. I think there's some subtext there that I'm not sure what it means, like the fire he builds after leaving, something about 'its own shape superimposed over the other, more geometrical one'. What?

[Whitey Appleseed]

Good question, one I want to ignore, cause it's a tough call. There's another like it in this section of the site, why did he kill everyone. Alice is a bit different. She was held up as a kind of shield. There's that bit about the scar on her forehead, too. Doesn't the gunslinger have a like-scar? Jake as well? Maybe not. With the others, he had to kill or be killed. They were kinda possessed and King uses that 'bewildered' as a kind of clue. Just before Sylvia rallies the troops after they become individuals again, after they wake up from the spell that must have been cast on them by the man in black. But Allie seemed different somehow and I don't know. Seems like he could possibly have done something different. Shrug.

[droland]

did he have to kill the kids? i think yes. if any of you have read "dreamcatcher", i think it's a bit like all those little baby aliens. they're small but enough of them could be deadly. it's a double edged sword. either kill them or spare them and they either gang up on him or they tail him once he leaves tull and he really doesn't need to be watching his back all the time. he needs to be looking ahead to the man in black. i think that once that battle was underway he did the right thing. however, i also think that before the battle began, he should have left. and, one more thought. i don't think he could have moved on, he had begun a relationship with allie, and she somewhat reminded him of his beloved Susan. i believe he mentions this, actually. no. what happened had to happen. Ka.

[Letti]

1. i don't think he could have moved on, he had begun a relationship with allie, and
2. she somewhat reminded him of his beloved Susan. i believe he mentions this, actually. no. what happened had to happen. Ka.

1. I think he could but he didn't want to. He always faced the dangers later in the saga, too. For example I remember when Susannah wanted to go around Lud but Roland refused that because of the same reason.
2. Are you sure? I don't remember anything like that... they both were women and that was the only similarity between them.

[droland]

1. i don't think he could have moved on, he had begun a relationship with allie, and
2. she somewhat reminded him of his beloved Susan. i believe he mentions this, actually. no. what happened had to happen. Ka.

1. I think he could but he didn't want to. He always faced the dangers later in the saga, too. For example I remember when Susannah wanted to go around Lud but Roland refused that because of the same reason.
2. Are you sure? I don't remember anything like that... they both were women and that was the only similarity between them.

you're right. it's been a while since i read this one and i know he made a passing referance to her somewhere in the book. the first time i read it, i had had no idea what it would be about and had not looked anything up whatsoever. so when i heard names thrown out like Susan and Cuthburt (i think he says the name before he tells the story of Hax, the cook) i was completely confused and so the name stuck in my head. after a while of not reading it, the place in the book where the name is mentioned got lost.

but, about the first point i believe in this pretty firmly. he didn't want to leave because of allie. if not for her, i think he would have moved on long before the shooting took place.
finally, what do you think of my theory about the children?

[Letti]

1. i don't think he could have moved on, he had begun a relationship with allie, and
2. she somewhat reminded him of his beloved Susan. i believe he mentions this, actually. no. what happened had to happen. Ka.

1. I think he could but he didn't want to. He always faced the dangers later in the saga, too. For example I remember when Susannah wanted to go around Lud but Roland refused that because of the same reason.
2. Are you sure? I don't remember anything like that... they both were women and that was the only similarity between them.

you're right. it's been a while since i read this one and i know he made a passing referance to her somewhere in the book. the first time i read it, i had had no idea what it would be about and had not looked anything up whatsoever. so when i heard names thrown out like Susan and Cuthburt (i think he says the name before he tells the story of Hax, the cook) i was completely confused and so the name stuck in my head. after a while of not reading it, the place in the book where the name is mentioned got lost.

but, about the first point i believe in this pretty firmly. he didn't want to leave because of allie. if not for her, i think he would have moved on long before the shooting took place.
finally, what do you think of my theory about the children?

I don't think the children could have been dangerous. They might have been able to cause some trouble but not much if they had followed him after the shooting but I think they would have run away without their parents. He shot them because he saw only one colour in his head at that moment and it was red. He was in the mood.

[EdwardDean1999]

1. i don't think he could have moved on, he had begun a relationship with allie, and
2. she somewhat reminded him of his beloved Susan. i believe he mentions this, actually. no. what happened had to happen. Ka.

I have to disagree (but not completely)

1. I don't buy the notion that Allie was keeping Roland in Tull. At least not because they "had begun a relationship". But I do think he felt he had to stay there. Walter had worked a horrible miracle in bringing back a dying man. Not only that but he had left a word with him "nineteen" that would unlock the mystery of life in turn driving the only sane person (Allie) insane. Roland is a knight of eld. He has a responsibility to fight the forces of CK. I suppose he was staying because he knew there was a great danger to the town. He felt he had to save it. He didn't realize that he would muddle things so much that he ended up defending himself against the whole town.

2. I don't think Allie reminds him of Susan. For starters SK takes pains to describe both specimens of flesh. Allie's skin is scarred and she has sagging breasts. Secondly, Sheb brings back the memory of Susan when he barges into Allie's bedroom; not Allie And upon this memory Roland refuses to make love to Allie. Logic follows that memories of Susan = mood killers. If Allie reminded him of Susan I doubt Roland would be in the mood on that first night.

To answer the original question. I think he had to fight. When the trap sprung and he was surrounded the first thing Roland did was shoot himself a path out of the fray. He sustained injuries in the massacre as well, so Tull did get some good licks in.

My first impressions were very different. I thought, "This monster just killed an entire town. They didn't pose a threat to him." But upon my re-read I knew that Roland was just trying hopelessly to serve the line of eld.

**I think I should deserve honorable mention for longest, incoherent posting tdt.com members awards anyone?

[BillyxRansom]

So wait!

Brown invited Roland to tell the story, and he did, but then, I must not have been paying attention, or I'm just not getting it, but how does Roland figure out there was a trap set for him? How do WE find out? I'm pretty unclear about this, because I remember Sylvia saying "The Interloper, the Interloper!" but how are we, the readers, shown this?!?! I think it breezed right past me. It just happened so fast to me!

[Letti]

I think he knew it from the very first moment he entered Tull and when he heard the Man in Blcvk had stayed there for awhile he got sure. Alice told him, too.

[Kidd Ikarus]

I'm sorry if I say something out of place or context . . . I haven't read the whole thread yet . . . But I read the opening post.

I thought it was friggin awesome when Roland gunned everyone in the town . . . uh . . . down . . . yeah. I have a pretty twisted mind and by the time everything went down, it was kill or be killed. Roland was and is bad ass. Haha.

[Woofer]

**I think I should deserve honorable mention for longest, incoherent posting tdt.com members awards anyone?

For what post?

There have been far longer, far less coherent posts, but... E for effort!

ETA - What? Nobody on the Tull reference? I know Matt loves the song I parodied. The life a wolf is hard indeed.