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Thread: Tull *possible spoilers*

  1. #26
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlesong View Post
    has everyone gone completely insane?

    Rape: Forced sexual intercourse; sexual assault; sexual intercourse between an adult and a minor. Rape may be heterosexual (involving members of opposite sexes) or homosexual (involving members of the same sex). Rape involves insertion of an erect penis or an inanimate object into the female vagina or the male anus. Legal definitions of rape may also include forced oral sex and other sexual acts.

    that is the medical definition of rape. most legal definitions include that definition as well. roland inserted his gun into sylvia's vagina. and the text says that he was especially careful not to let her flesh touch his as he was doing it. that my friends is rape. woman do not ask to be raped, and how is a forcible insertion of a gun into a woman's vagina retaliation for words?

    has everyone gone completely insane?
    Yes, but that has nothing to do with the point at hand.

    I'd say that while by our current legal and medical definitions that what he does in this scene would constitute rape in our society, but let's remember where our country was not so long ago. Our current legal and medical positions have come about through a long process of refinement. Twenty to thirty years ago in most states most cops would tell you that a husband couldn't rape his wife...because she was his. Pretty much the same attitude applied to beating your wife or kid (with possible exception of a beating that resulted in their death) Matter of fact in many social circles it was basically considered a man's duty as a husband to keep his wife and kid's in line. What I'm getting at here is that our view as a society has progressed toward where we are now. In various times and places it has been much different. In some parts of the world a woman is considered at fault for rape automatically. And they would argue sincerely that this is right. What I mean is that while if a man were to shove a gun into a woman here in our times in our world there could be little question of it being considered rape. but in Roland's world and times they were in an entirely different place.


    And to call Sylvia's sermon just words greatly underestimates the power of words. A skillful speaker can incite people to the point of murder or laying down their own life. I'd say at that point words are more than "just words"
    If that were the case there would be no such thing as slander or threats as crimes. I could say I'm gonna' kill the president tomorrow at noon and mean it and have no problems.... because they're just words.

  2. #27
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    What I mean is that while if a man were to shove a gun into a woman here in our times in our world there could be little question of it being considered rape. but in Roland's world and times they were in an entirely different place.
    So, from where you stand here and now, it was a rape, right?

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  3. #28
    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    What I mean is that while if a man were to shove a gun into a woman here in our times in our world there could be little question of it being considered rape. but in Roland's world and times they were in an entirely different place.
    So, from where you stand here and now, it was a rape, right?
    Yes, I think it was.

  4. #29
    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    What I mean is that while if a man were to shove a gun into a woman here in our times in our world there could be little question of it being considered rape. but in Roland's world and times they were in an entirely different place.
    So, from where you stand here and now, it was a rape, right?
    Yes, I think it was.
    Maybe on a strict medical or legal definition it would have to be ruled as rape.

    But when I read that scene, 'rape' is not the description that comes to mind for me. Why is that?
    It's not that it's fiction, or fantasy even, other books have proven that for me (Stephen Donaldson anyone?).
    It's Sylvia, I think. What is she? / what was she before Walter? / what did he make of her? - that's what's influencing my view I think....
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    I agree with Brian. And also the way in which Brice illustrated my point - Sylvia incited the whole of Tull to rise up against Roland, if you wanted to take that to court I'm sure a good lawyer could find a way to hold her responsible for the death of the citizens of Tull even.

    But, mostly the bottom line is - no, I'm not insane. If we were talking about real life I'd have to consider Roland's actions very carefully, because yes, he did assault her. But, its fiction! As Brian said, there are other considerations too, did Walter transfer some kind of power to Sylvia, was she entirely human? Etc - in the case of this story its not a simple fact of "he raped her, he is wrong!" It's way more complicated - morally and factually.

  6. #31
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    i'm not saying that sylvia's actions weren't wrong. and i'm not saying that raising the town against roland wasn't wrong. i'm saying that when you weigh the two things. . . .

    he's supposed to be on the side of the white. he's supposed to be searching for the tower. he's going to have to save the beams. and he's staying in the town, knowing there's a trap. and he rapes this woman with his gun.

    the bottom line is he should be better than that. he's a gunslinger. he's not a monster, or at least he shouldn't be. he's not some thug, or at least he shouldn't be. he's an instrument of the white.

    i really think tull is one of the reasons he's in a loop in the first place.

    :throws up hands and leaves:

  7. #32
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    I agree that his actions in Tull are utterly contrary to what he is supposed to stand for. But to me, that was the purpose of the book - to show the man that Roland had become at that point.

  8. #33
    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlesong View Post
    ....:throws up hands and leaves:
    Get back in the ring - it's only an argument! (and not even that - only a discussion).
    You make a good & fair point turtle, I've even admitted that, to me, it's 'strictly' valid. I can only repeat that, when I read the scene (& I've read it a good many times) 'rape' is not what comes to mind. & to be fair to you, you make me question that a bit - but on balance I don't think I see it that way.
    Good debate now & again is what makes this place (& .net before it) worth belonging to.
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  9. #34
    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    so a real gunslinger waits around in towns were they know a trap is set and waiting to be sprung? a real gunslinger eats, drinks, and fucks while waiting for the trap to just close around him? say sorry, i don't think so. and that's what roland did in tull.


    and yeah, MoW, you know i can't leave. i'm just to contrary to do that.

  10. #35
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    Hell, Roland even stumbling upon Jake was a trap. He even knew that "the Man In Black carried his soul in his pocket as long as he traveled with the boy". Does that mean that keeping Jake around as long as he did was a waste of time too?

  11. #36
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girlystevedave View Post
    Hell, Roland even stumbling upon Jake was a trap. He even knew that "the Man In Black carried his soul in his pocket as long as he traveled with the boy". Does that mean that keeping Jake around as long as he did was a waste of time too?
    It goes back to the poem folks. The Hoary Cripple (definitely Walter at this point for King) points to the direction of the Dark Tower ("which all agree") but the first line of the poem is, "My first thought was he lied in every word." My point: they are "traps" in a sense, but in another they all lead to the Dark Tower. Amanda makes a really good point. I could go on for about 150- pages but I'll stop.

    Turtlesong, rape is a sensitive subject I don't offer any of this in a belittling way.

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    So, he should have left the boy?

    If he had left Jake behind, then Roland never would have let him fall, allowing Jake back into his world, where he was pulled through to the ka-tet.

  13. #38
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by RelevantCloud9 View Post
    I know all that.
    I just found Jake to be very annoying!
    And you think that you're in hot water for calling Roland dumb.

  14. #39
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    Jake annoying?

  15. #40
    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Girlystevedave View Post
    Hell, Roland even stumbling upon Jake was a trap. He even knew that "the Man In Black carried his soul in his pocket as long as he traveled with the boy". Does that mean that keeping Jake around as long as he did was a waste of time too?
    absolutely not. we all know how i feel about jake. and i never said that he was wasting his time in tull. i said that staying in tull didn't make any sense when he knew that a trap had been laid for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by RelevantCloud9 View Post
    Actually I've always thought Roland was a little stupid.
    Just thought I would get lynched for saying so.

    In most westerns form the '70s the "good guy" is usually a pretty rotten person. He's just a little nicer then the "bad guys". What you would call a anti-hero.

    I figured Roland stayed in Tull as long as he did because he really didn't want to keep going. And in a way part of it was because he was lonely. He's sort of a wimpy guy. Doesn't really know when to leave to avoid trouble. Like in Mejis, he could have avoided that trouble if hadn't been so unsure of what to do. Seems like being unsure about to do is his way of handling everything. Just wait until you can't get out and then kill everybody. After all, he can always blame ka for it in the end.
    well, i don't know if you'll get lynched but maybe by certain quarters. see, i thought he didn't want to keep going on some level as well. and cowardice is no trait for a gunslinger to possess. but he knew when to leave to avoid trouble, he just didn't. that's stupidity. he wasn't unsure as much as - resigned?

    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    <snip>
    It goes back to the poem folks. The Hoary Cripple (definitely Walter at this point for King) points to the direction of the Dark Tower ("which all agree") but the first line of the poem is, "My first thought was he lied in every word." My point: they are "traps" in a sense, but in another they all lead to the Dark Tower. Amanda makes a really good point. I could go on for about 150- pages but I'll stop.

    Turtlesong, rape is a sensitive subject I don't offer any of this in a belittling way.
    i know you don't and yes it is a very sensitive subject. i just have a hard time seeing how anyone could NOT see what he did for what it was. it's described that way in the book. it's very confusing to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by RelevantCloud9 View Post
    I know all that.
    I just found Jake to be very annoying!
    aaaaaaaand let the lynching commence. but still ------->

    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RelevantCloud9 View Post
    I know all that.
    I just found Jake to be very annoying!
    And you think that you're in hot water for calling Roland dumb.
    yeah, what he said!!!!

  16. #41
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by RelevantCloud9 View Post
    I shall keep my mouth shut and stay out of tull from now on!
    Before I make anymore enemies!

    :skulks quietly out of the room with head down:
    Hey, no enemies and no worries.

  17. #42
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by RelevantCloud9 View Post
    You didn't see the crowd with the pitchforks and flaming torchs!
    We all love Jake and fell in love with him immediately- Some of us for twenty years. No one hates you.

  18. #43
    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    here's some cookies dear sai cloud. and some chocolate. now come out from under the couch. don't make me come in there after you.
    Last edited by The Lady of Shadows; 06-25-2008 at 08:10 PM. Reason: changed madame to sai so r.c. won't beat me

  19. #44
    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    Indeed it was a form of rape. I also agree it was ka that it happened, but that doesn't make those acts ok.
    Spoiler:
    It was ka Susan would be burnt by the people of Hambry too, but it was still an evil act right?


    If I understand ka correctly it can employ any act or event, good or evil to perform it's purpose. To quote Monty Pythons Life of Brian, Roland was a very naughty boy.

    As I said earlier though, I think all these base acts might have ironically contributed to his somewhat change of heart later though, or rather the guilt that resulted. The emphasis seemed more on the massacre of Tull mind, but I think the whole thing was a bad move. The murder, the rape, and yes, even the way he treated Allie, albeit with her consent.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    As I said earlier though, I think all these base acts might have ironically contributed to his somewhat change of heart later though, or rather the guilt that resulted.
    My point entirely, or rather I think, King's point entirely.

    I think all the events in Tull were to illustrate that he had reached his lowest point. That he stayed, despite knowing it was a trap, because he felt that this was who he had become - a remorseless killer - so, why not resign himself to it and act out the part.

    The dropping of Jake is a contrast to this, and also his turning point. He has learned to like and have some compassion for Jake - but when he lets him drop, he feels he has betrayed him more than anyone in Tull - its the pivotal point in the change.

    Shit, I just debunked my "he must not drop Jake" theory...I'll have to find some way to take that back

  21. #46
    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

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  22. #47
    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    ka's a bitch ain't it?

  23. #48
    Gunslinger Apprentice BillyxRansom is on a distinguished road

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    Very simple, here's the line from which I will draw (hee) my response:

    There was a tight feeling in his throat. He might still avoid the trap, but the chances were small. He was, after all, the interloper.

    I believe he knew that they thought him a bad, bad man. And so, he would face the consequences that he knew would come. This is what I think:

    I think they knew he would not die, not by any of their own hands. I think that the man in black set it up so that the gunslinger would kill them. I think that was his punishment, to see all these people strewn about on the "dusty, droppings-strewn floor".

    Somehow, he thought that if they thought him the interloper, then maybe he is; but to him, that was not his call to make. His killing them was the trap. He did not escape the trap, he fell directly into it. This was just another test and he failed, but it ended up being exactly what he deserved, somehow.

  24. #49
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    That's a cool perspective Billy--killing them all and having to deal with that would be one hell of a trap
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  25. #50
    Gunslinger Apprentice BillyxRansom is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    That's a cool perspective Billy--killing them all and having to deal with that would be one hell of a trap
    Thanks.

    I have to wonder, though, how did these people all come to see him as such, the interloper? I mean, I understand it was Walter's(?)/Randall's(?) doing, to mystify these people into thinking that about him, but did he just hypnotize the people, or did he use some 1337 ass pwnage-like skillz to influence the people to see that way of thinking?

    Hmm...

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