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Thread: Tull *possible spoilers*

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Default Tull *possible spoilers*

    I think Tull deserves its own thread.
    So... what did you think about Roland when you saw him killing like a robot? (I was only 12 at that time so it's hard to remember but I guess I was quite shocked.)
    Did he have any other choice anyway? Did he really have to kill the children as well?
    Open your mind to me, please.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

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    Tull was quite a massacre. Not that Roland had a lot of choice once it kicked off. - but before it did he had the opportunity to get out of town, and indeed I think he had at least some premonition of what was coming but chose to wait and face it rather than clear out. Was he right? Was there some good reason to stay? Was anything achieved by it? I tend to think not - better to have gone while he had the chance and leave them alive - and maybe that's one of the things he'll be measured by again.

    On your 'did he have to kill the kid's' question - once it had kicked off and the fight was on I think he pretty much had to kill them all, yes. Very hard to spare anyone in the heat of that battle. The worst injury he suffered in the fight was a cut on the leg from a young boy with a knife.
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    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    i've said this in other threads but now that tull has it's own thread what the hell. i think roland could have avoided what happened in tull. he knew there was a trap set there for him. he even said so. and he hung around anyway. that is the epitome of stupid in my opinion. what was the point of staying when he knew something bad was going to go down. he knew walter had been there and set a trap specifically for him - he said he knew it. yet he stayed.

    and let's not forget, ladies and gentlemen, that he raped sylvia pittston with the gun of his father. for that is exactly what he did. whether she thought she was pregnant with a demon or not, whether we believe it or not, whether she really was or not - he raped that woman with a gun.

    he stayed in that town, eating, drinking, and having sex with allie, all the time knowing that it was a trap just waiting to be sprung. what happened there happened because of him. because he stayed. and we have no way of knowing what would have happened if he had left.

    maybe that's one of the things he has to change in his continuing quest. maybe that's one of the reasons he continues to loop. who knows? gan may know. i do not.

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    Palaver Castle Chef mia/susannah is on a distinguished road mia/susannah's Avatar

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    I tend to agree with some of what turtlesong and MOW says. Roland probably should have moved on instead of hanging around. There was really no reason for him to

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Maybe he was just lonely...

    Roland would have understood.

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    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    It's a difficult one really. Did he really need to kill them all? I think not. As others have said, he needn't have stayed that long. And even if he did, someone as good a shot as he needn't have killed them all. This is a guy who actually shot guns out of peoples hands in other books in the cycle, so he could have killed a few to make the point, and winged others. (Although leaving them wounded might have been a greater evil as he might have ended up leaving them to a lingering death of infection etc... but they would have a chance at least.) The trouble is, it seems the gunslinger machine had taken over at that point and Roland was blazing away to his own god-drums.

    That's no excuse though, he could have still done something when he was thinking clearly. Part of being a gunslinger is about keeping a cool head anyway, not just blasting away in a red hot heat.

    And then there is what he did to Sylvia Pittson, which has been mentioned already. The interesting is I was just thinking about that a couple of days ago, and pretty much on those exact lines, she may or may not have had a demon baby, but what he did indeed was rape, and thoroughly wrong. Then I look on here today, and Letti has started a thread on Tull, and someone (with the name Turtlesong too -ka?) voicing my thoughts. Makes you wonder if there's something in that whole ka-tet khef thing doesn't it? Internet khef... hee hee.

    On the other hand another thought occurs to me. Whilst what he did in Tull was wrong, it's often or not the bad things we do or experience in life that can ultimately shape us for the better(or worse depending on how we allow such experiences to affect us). We know from his conversation with Brown that he felt bad about Tull. Could it be, that the guilt was one of the factors which made him reassess what he had become, triggering the process of becoming a better man as a result? He still had/has a long way to go. He still dropped Jake later, but I wonder if Tull started those gears grinding.

    Spoiler:
    That's not to say that he need repeat these bad actions every cycle though. (Unfortunately Tull is done and dusted anyway happening before the loop... I'm mainly thinking of Jake here.) Sure he forgets, but I like to think he brings something of what he learnt across with him, subconsciously at least. Either how could he ever progress?

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    West Coast sarah is on a distinguished road sarah's Avatar

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    Here are some remarks people made about Tull in the Best Fight threads.

    Mark:
    Tull didn't seem too much of a fight to me, more of a slaughter.
    DettaDelgado:

    Tull. It was the first time I saw Roland draw his guns, and it left an impression, slaughtering a town like that.
    mia/susannah:

    I don't see Tull as much of a fight. It was a exciting scene don't get me wrong but not much of a fight.
    brainslinger:

    I don't count Tull really as to me it was more of an execution than an actual fight. Ok, there were enough people to be a hazard, even for a gunslinger, but even so.
    wizardsrainbow:

    I guess I am a purist at heart and have an affinity for the first book....Roland kicks serious butt in Tull. I would like to see him reload and reload with the spent shell casings burning the tips of his fingers.
    obscurejude:
    You know what, I just realized how indelible of an impression Tull makes on the reader. It sticks with you for the rest of the series and puts everything related to Roland in perspective, including later fight scenes. One of the appeals of the gas station is that he is with someone else, but that is appreciable (for me) because of Tull and its solitariness.
    feverishparade:

    Tull is the best because it was more intense, more action packed, and it was the most memorable.
    turtlesong:
    you know, the thing about tull is Roland knew it was a trap. he fucking knew it and he stayed anyway. he didn't gain anything there. he didn't come across any great and wonderous knowledge. he didn't find new weapons, make any new discoveries, draw anyone. . .

    he ate, he fucked, he massacred.

    he knew it was a trap and he stayed anyway. he even told himself he should leave and he stayed anyway. that's not a battle, that's not a heroic fight, that's a fucking massacre.

    and i swear to gan, the first person who says ka to me is going to get shot.
    feverishparade:

    So what if he knew it was a trap? That doesn't make the battle any less amazing.


    KA
    arthur heath:

    I would describe amazing as overcoming a great obstacle. Roland backpedaling, shooting what may as well be slow mutants is no great obstacle.
    feverishparade:
    You think avoiding 57 people with knifes and pitchforks is easy? Roland is a Gunslinger, he's not Neo in the Matrix where he can keep track of everybodys movements. And if it was such an easy battle, then why is that the only battle in which he sustained injuries?



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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Your rock, Sarah.
    Thank you.

    Roland would have understood.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    The trouble is, it seems the gunslinger machine had taken over at that point and Roland was blazing away to his own god-drums.
    That's what I think the truth is. Damn sad but it is.
    Roland enjoyed it. It's not easy to write it down because I love and respect him but I think that's the truth. He wanted to feel that he was still alive and he was still a gunslinger.
    He proved it.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    The trouble is, it seems the gunslinger machine had taken over at that point and Roland was blazing away to his own god-drums.

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    I also thought it was written to purposely make the point to us, what kind of a man that Roland was at that stage. It makes it all the more amazing that he goes on to form the connections he does with his new ka-tet.
    Its another redemption, from the bitterness caused by the loss of his first ka-tet, to the growth he makes with the new.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    I also thought it was written to purposely make the point to us, what kind of a man that Roland was at that stage. It makes it all the more amazing that he goes on to form the connections he does with his new ka-tet.
    Its another redemption, from the bitterness caused by the loss of his first ka-tet, to the growth he makes with the new.
    I totally agree.

  14. #14
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    I may not have the right words to justify 'using a gun to rape a woman' or killing 57 people, but I do believe that the events in Tull were part of Ka and Roland was destined to live every moment of it.
    If he hadn't stuck around as long as he did, he would have learned nothing about The Man In Black. That was his purpose for stumbling upon Tull, I believe. The MIB may have 'set a trap' for him there, but I think Roland did a good job of wriggling his way out of it.
    This is my opinion: Tull was doomed anyway. You could see that when Roland first enters the town. What do we see in Tull: Drunkenness, fathers sleeping with their daughters, a distorted preacher...
    The way I see it, Roland was just cleaning up the place..while showing how badass of a fighter he was.

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    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    oh fine. bring out ka.

    and just so we're clear. there is nothing that can justify rape. with a gun or anything else. not even ka. after dropping jake, that was the worst thing he ever did. and the most unforgivable.

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    You know, I never read it like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    You know, I never read it like that.

    never read what like what? that roland raped sylvia pittston?

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    Citizen of Gilead Empath of the White is on a distinguished road Empath of the White's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlesong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    You know, I never read it like that.

    never read what like what? that roland raped sylvia pittston?
    suprise sex. Actually in the unrevised version, was Sylvia preggers and did Roland still do that , er...trick with the revolver?

    As for Tull, I recall thinking, "wow, this is our hero. I wonder what the villains are like?"

    In retrospect, I think that Roland wanted to kill them. I'm of the opinion that he was still carrying some baggage from the fall of Gilead and Jericho Hill. It was unfortunate that Tull was the place he relieved himself of some of that baggage.

    My opinion. IIRC, Roland could've avoided it if he forgot the mule and just bolted. Of course then his load would be heavier and he did have that vast desert to cross.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    I'm leaning toward what Amanda said. I have no real qualms with Roland and Tull.

    Lisa, I never really read it that way either.

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    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlesong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    You know, I never read it like that.

    never read what like what? that roland raped sylvia pittston?
    Lisa, I agree.
    1. She wasn't pregnant, with a child or a demon or anything else.
    2. I don't think the gun got, um.... that far. I think the mere proximity of than ancient killing machine caused the reaction it did in her (and quickly too!)
    3. Was she crazy? Was she possessed by a demon? Was she a demon? (Roland had a moment later when he wondered if the Demonic spirit in the stone circle might have been Sylvia's?- but dismissed it as unlikely?). Not that those things are nessecarily relevant to the question in hand, but I wonder about them.

    Certainly I don't think 'rape' describes that scene.
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    Interplay Fan HanzouNorak is on a distinguished road HanzouNorak's Avatar

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    god, Tull was the reason i stayed with it, when i read, even if i like the book, if theres no action or nothing really interesting for awhile i get bored, then the battle at Tull comes along and i cant put the book down.

    i agree with Wes on his points too, especially the last sentence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by turtlesong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    You know, I never read it like that.

    never read what like what? that roland raped sylvia pittston?
    Yep, pretty much

    Up until Roland threatens to kill her unborn demon, she seems to be expecting to sleep with him - Walter has told her that Roland will want to. She warns Roland that if he sleeps with her it may kill him (she thinks the demon spawn has this power) but she doesn't seem to have an issue with it at that point:
    She smiled up at him lazily. "He said you would want to bed me. Do you?"
    "Yes."
    "The price is your life, gunslinger."
    It's only when Roland puts his hand to his gun and tells her that he can rid her of the demon, that she tells him not to touch her.
    After that yes, he does put the gun inside her against her will (even though she appears to climax from it). Its not rape, its sexual assault, but even so in her case I don't think I'd describe it as such - I'd call it retaliation.
    Sylvia was a very real threat to him - she attacked him first in her own way (by turning Tull against him in the sermon) and he retaliated.

    I doubt she was really impregnanted, Roland doubted it too - when he leaves he says "No child...No angel. No demon." I think Walter made it up to further bind her to his will.

  23. #23
    Banned The Lady of Shadows is on a distinguished road

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    has everyone gone completely insane?

    Rape: Forced sexual intercourse; sexual assault; sexual intercourse between an adult and a minor. Rape may be heterosexual (involving members of opposite sexes) or homosexual (involving members of the same sex). Rape involves insertion of an erect penis or an inanimate object into the female vagina or the male anus. Legal definitions of rape may also include forced oral sex and other sexual acts.

    that is the medical definition of rape. most legal definitions include that definition as well. roland inserted his gun into sylvia's vagina. and the text says that he was especially careful not to let her flesh touch his as he was doing it. that my friends is rape. woman do not ask to be raped, and how is a forcible insertion of a gun into a woman's vagina retaliation for words?

    has everyone gone completely insane?

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    well said turtle...point proven in my eyes

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    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by HanzouNorak View Post
    god, Tull was the reason i stayed with it
    Tull was the reason why I almost dropped the book - I would have, if in that hospital there were any other books available right away

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