Oh, yes. I read that Moffat and Co. wanted to go in a completely different direction, costume-wise, but Smith really wanted to try on the bow tie. I'm just amused that it was his idea. Goes to prove how he is the perfect person for this Doctor. I honestly couldn't imagine him any different.
Another note on the finale - I am astounded how much I can care about the main character, and yet still be just as invested towards "secondary" characters. My other favorite part of that story line with Rory and Amy.
Spoiler:
For him to wait 2000 years...the video in the museum of the Lone Centurion when he watched over her that entire time and risked death to make sure she was safe, despite assurance from the Doctor. I melted when it talked about him dragging the box from the fire, risking almost certain death from his "plastic" state just them....
-it just melted my heart. If I can't get a Doctor, I think I'd settle for a Rory.
With Supernatural...that was a bold thing to say...you have no idea! I told my best friend, who has probably taken my throne as the biggest Supernatural fan now that I have stepped down, and she freaked. But I have to stay true to what I think. Just know, even though I'm sure you'll never find another favorite, that's it's quite weird. Especially when it happens all of the sudden like it did for me.
The curious thing is that the thought never came to me beforehand....why not during the first time I saw the finale set? *shrugs*
I agree with you about Rory and Amy! Oh, I love those two! The first ever
Spoiler:
married companion team!
Brilliant! Like Ian and Barbara, the first man/woman companion team (who were in love with each other. I mean it was never stated, but they clearly did, just watch the Romans to see what I mean!).
It's easy to think when we first saw Rory that he was a bit of a dork and you had to wonder why Amy went out with him in the first place, but as time went on he came to prove himself. It's only recently that I realised that Amy must've seen something in Rory that was similar to the Doctor, even if she didn't realise it herself. He's not clever, not like the Doctor anyway, but he is brave, nice, and most important of all, like the Doctor, he's a bit of a dork. In a very different way, but at the end of the day, they're both dorks. ("We are so not her boys!" "Yeah, we are." "Yeah, we are!" is my 2nd favourite example.) Makes sense that Amy would be attracted to a man like that, after waiting for years for the Doctor to come back.
And maybe it didn't occur to you the first time you watched the finale that it was your new favourite show because, like the best Dr Who stories, the finale is something that just gets better with every viewing. Hell, I think I can say the same with the whole of series 5: watch it once the whole way through, and you'll want to watch it again just to see what you missed. Best example of course was Flesh and Stone:
Spoiler:
message boards and facebook groups were ranting about the obvious continuity error of the Doctor suddenly wearing his jacket when he'd actually lost it, but to me it wasn't just the jacket that felt like a continuity error, it was the Doctor himself: one moment he says he'll be back later and being casual, the next he's being completely serious with Amy and telling her to "remember".
What Moffat did with that wonderful piece of setup and paying it off in the finale is something I can't imagine happening on any other show, really.
Bloody hell, now i'm looking forward to the series 5 set even more, now!
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
ok so everybody knows that the big mysteries left over are river songs story and who said silence will fall but i have another. Who exactly built the tardis/ship thingy in the lodger and then dissappeared at the end? it baffles me!
if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do
Knowing Moffat, it really wouldn't surprise me for him to actually reveal that next series and reveal it as some sort of grand master plan he's had for the show since before he became showrunner!
Spoiler:
Seriously, after the moment in Flesh and Stone of the Doctor's jacket being revisited in the finale, nothing would surprise me when it comes to clever over-arcing stories!
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
Hmmm.
Is it that likely though? He's laid down the foundations to possibly revealing a darker side to the Doctor, but let's face it: it's unlikely that it would lead to the Valeyard, a character who appeared in one story that wasn't very popular, ridiculously difficult to explain and is unknown to the general UK audience (ie. the one that counts when it comes to viewing figures). There'll probably be a story where the Doctor turns evil, but I really doubt there'd be any direct connection made to the Valeyard if that did happen.
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
I agree with you about Rory and Amy! Oh, I love those two! The first ever
Spoiler:
married companion team!
Brilliant! Like Ian and Barbara, the first man/woman companion team (who were in love with each other. I mean it was never stated, but they clearly did, just watch the Romans to see what I mean!).
It's easy to think when we first saw Rory that he was a bit of a dork and you had to wonder why Amy went out with him in the first place, but as time went on he came to prove himself. It's only recently that I realised that Amy must've seen something in Rory that was similar to the Doctor, even if she didn't realise it herself. He's not clever, not like the Doctor anyway, but he is brave, nice, and most important of all, like the Doctor, he's a bit of a dork. In a very different way, but at the end of the day, they're both dorks. ("We are so not her boys!" "Yeah, we are." "Yeah, we are!" is my 2nd favourite example.) Makes sense that Amy would be attracted to a man like that, after waiting for years for the Doctor to come back.
And maybe it didn't occur to you the first time you watched the finale that it was your new favourite show because, like the best Dr Who stories, the finale is something that just gets better with every viewing. Hell, I think I can say the same with the whole of series 5: watch it once the whole way through, and you'll want to watch it again just to see what you missed. Best example of course was Flesh and Stone:
Spoiler:
message boards and facebook groups were ranting about the obvious continuity error of the Doctor suddenly wearing his jacket when he'd actually lost it, but to me it wasn't just the jacket that felt like a continuity error, it was the Doctor himself: one moment he says he'll be back later and being casual, the next he's being completely serious with Amy and telling her to "remember".
What Moffat did with that wonderful piece of setup and paying it off in the finale is something I can't imagine happening on any other show, really.
Bloody hell, now i'm looking forward to the series 5 set even more, now!
So..would your 1st choice example for Rory/Amy relationship be:
Spoiler:
"Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Pond!" "That's not how it works." "Yeah it is."...."Yeah it is."
?
The jacket thing was curious...I'll admit I was just worried about continuity, also. But I'm not quite the avid fan you are....so I suppose I get a pass just this once?
The story with an Evil Doctor intrigues me, to say the least. I sincerely hope that happens. But...we have a bit of a wait, unfortunately.
So have you heard anything about the Christmas special? Or started a countdown yet? I think I'm close to counting the days at this point...or I will be, after I get done with my DVD release countdown
Hmmm.
Is it that likely though? He's laid down the foundations to possibly revealing a darker side to the Doctor, but let's face it: it's unlikely that it would lead to the Valeyard, a character who appeared in one story that wasn't very popular, ridiculously difficult to explain and is unknown to the general UK audience (ie. the one that counts when it comes to viewing figures). There'll probably be a story where the Doctor turns evil, but I really doubt there'd be any direct connection made to the Valeyard if that did happen.
I hope it does happen though, the 6th doctor is my favorite
and i think all signs point to it being a go, the valeyard claimed to have come from somewhere between the doctor's 12 and final incarnations and 11 said in reference to "the dreamlord" "there's only one person who hates me this much" technically i think there are a few but since it couldn't be the master I think he meant the valeyard, doctor who has always, no matter whether it's new who or classic, had a very tight connection to it's own continuity and i don't think that a statement like that would be said without a reason
if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do
So..would your 1st choice example for Rory/Amy relationship be:
Spoiler:
"Congratulations Mr. and Mrs. Pond!" "That's not how it works." "Yeah it is."...."Yeah it is."
?
The jacket thing was curious...I'll admit I was just worried about continuity, also. But I'm not quite the avid fan you are....so I suppose I get a pass just this once?
The story with an Evil Doctor intrigues me, to say the least. I sincerely hope that happens. But...we have a bit of a wait, unfortunately.
So have you heard anything about the Christmas special? Or started a countdown yet? I think I'm close to counting the days at this point...or I will be, after I get done with my DVD release countdown
Yeah, I'm just looking forward to the dvd release of series 5 before anything else, really. I've kinda put the xmas special out of my mind, if i'm honest: with re-watching Dr Who, Torchwood, special edition of classic dvds (not to mention college), the idea of one brand new special is something i oddly enough haven't been obsessing over. Or maybe it's just the fact that it's only one new episode for the next few months: i'm looking forward a lot more to seeing what Moffat does in series 6, if i'm honest. Can't wait to find out what he does with a split season! And a Neil Gaiman episode!!! Brilliant!
Oh, and you're right of course about what my 1st choice for Rory/Amy relationship, of course! Rory's brilliant! He knows he's Amy's bitch forever, he just doesn't like to admit it!
Btw, regarding the jacket thing, I'll admit that even i thought it was just a continuity error the first time, but the more times i watched it on demand before the finale (especially that particular 2-parter, that is a masterpiece of Who, that is), the more I thought, "Hmmm..." Like Steven Moffat says, you really do have to watch everything twice!
Originally Posted by flaggwalkstheline
I hope it does happen though, the 6th doctor is my favorite
and i think all signs point to it being a go, the valeyard claimed to have come from somewhere between the doctor's 12 and final incarnations and 11 said in reference to "the dreamlord" "there's only one person who hates me this much" technically i think there are a few but since it couldn't be the master I think he meant the valeyard, doctor who has always, no matter whether it's new who or classic, had a very tight connection to it's own continuity and i don't think that a statement like that would be said without a reason
It's had a tight connection with it's own continuity when it's been relevant to the story and done in such a way that people won't go, "huh?", at least with the new series. Usually, anything continuity related is something that the audience (the UK audience, at least) have some awareness of already because it's so iconic, such as the Daleks, Cybermen and Davros, but the background stuff is always explained anyway in little bits amongst the plot of the episode, or if it's something they're not likely to know about it's treated as brand new anyway, such as the autons in Rose.
The problem with a lot of 80s Who is that it made a ton of continuity references that were (a) irrelevant to the story, and (b) usually were only plot points that the hardcore fans would get (which, considering this was an age in which the home video hadn't been around long and hardly any Who was available to re-watch at all, was pretty unreasonable to do, to say the least)! For example: the "shocking" return of Omega as a twist cliffhanger! When that was revealed, most of the audience just asked, "who?" Considering this was a villain who hadn't appeared in the show for nearly ten years and had only appeared once, it wasn't a good use of continuity, really.
The Valeyard has the exact same problem, only worse. He's someone who wasn't iconic and also appeared in just the one story, but what's worse is that it's been over 20 years since his one off appearance in one story that ultimately failed. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great idea for a character, I even bought Time's Champion, an unofficial novel which dealt with a shitload of continuity references, plus the combo of the Valeyard's return and the 6th Doctor's death, and I read that in 2 days flat, I enjoyed it so much. More importantly, I thought that an unofficial novel was the only likely way for any explanation to be given to who the Valeyard really was (or rather, how an amalgamation of the Doctor's darker side was even created in the first place) and also a resolution to his character.
Because here's the most likely reason why I don't think tv will tackle the tricky issue of the Valeyard: in over 200 books in both the Virgin and the BBC range of expanded universe fiction, only 1 had a direct appearance from the Valeyard, and from what i've read he's nothing like he was in Trial of a Time Lord, anyway. The fact is, even the official publishers of novels intended for fans didn't want to bother explaining who he was. Do you think it likely that Moffat will make any reference to him or his one tv story to an audience where 99% of which would be completely unaware of him, even if a Dark Doctor does show up? Look at the Dream Lord: yes, it's the closest thing we've had to a "Valeyard story", which had the Doctor up against
Spoiler:
a manifestation of his own darker nature, but not once did the Doctor make any reference to having been up against anything similar before, and the Dream Lord didn't even act much like the Valeyard either.
Oh, and regarding the "only one person who hates me this much" line: I think he just meant himself when he said it. I know the Valeyard is in some way the Doctor, but I really do think the Doctor literally hates himself for the people he's failed to save, for the people he's let down, and for the people who's lives he ruins from time to time.
Who knows though, I might be proved wrong, and like you said Dr Who has always maintained a tight connection with its own continuity, but these days its secondary compared to getting the casual audience and the kids to enjoy a good piece of entertainment for 45 minutes without really needing to know much. Even with last year's season arc, which Moffat made more complex than ever, any episode could still be enjoyed at any point. I like it when continuity's referenced, but I think it's been too long for the Valeyard to make any kind of direct appearance now. However, I do agree with you that there are signs pointing to a possible Dark Doctor story, at least. Now that, i'd love to see!
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
a dark doctor story would either be the valeyard, the dreamlord again (who i think could mutate into the valeyard somehow) or the tenth clone doctor, although if it's that last one i think it wouldn't be done till at least the season after the coming one
if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do
I remember the cliffhanger to one of my favourite McGann stories on audio, Neverland, which concerned a nursery rhyme about the monster Zagreus and how it was connected to a universe of anti-time. The nursery rhyme had been heard in a few stories, in fact: "Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed, and eats you when you're sleeping." The Doctor had to save the whole of history from being undone by an explosion of anti-time, a force that could erase past, present and future and leave nothing but chaos.
The cliffhanger at the end of the story was
Spoiler:
the Doctor apparently sacrificing his life by materialising his TARDIS around the exploding anti-time. Or so, that was the plan. What happened was worse. Much worse. Because the Doctor had been infected by the anti-time, driven mad, and had become "he who sits inside your head, he who lives among the dead...I....have become....ZAGREUS!
Best.
Cliffhanger.
Ever.
(Just a shame that the following story, Zagreus, actually failed horribly by comparison.)
Now I'm not expecting a reference to that, but what I am saying is that a Dark Doctor could perfectly happen without the Dream Lord or the Valeyard or even the clone Doctor, and I think that if it does happen it will likely be because of something original, or at least something introduced in a season arc, so any explanation for the Doctor turning evil is still fresh in people's minds when it does happen.
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
I do get what you are saying in regards to continuity. It's difficult with any show, much less one that has 31 seasons and multiple writers/head staff to deal with. I'm sure issues pop up, especially after it's been going a while.
But, I think I said before..A Dark Doctor...I would love to see what Matt Smith could do with that.
Yeah, I'm just looking forward to the dvd release of series 5 before anything else, really. I've kinda put the xmas special out of my mind, if i'm honest: with re-watching Dr Who, Torchwood, special edition of classic dvds (not to mention college), the idea of one brand new special is something i oddly enough haven't been obsessing over. Or maybe it's just the fact that it's only one new episode for the next few months: i'm looking forward a lot more to seeing what Moffat does in series 6, if i'm honest. Can't wait to find out what he does with a split season! And a Neil Gaiman episode!!! Brilliant!
Oh, and you're right of course about what my 1st choice for Rory/Amy relationship, of course! Rory's brilliant! He knows he's Amy's bitch forever, he just doesn't like to admit it!
Btw, regarding the jacket thing, I'll admit that even i thought it was just a continuity error the first time, but the more times i watched it on demand before the finale (especially that particular 2-parter, that is a masterpiece of Who, that is), the more I thought, "Hmmm..." Like Steven Moffat says, you really do have to watch everything twice!
Of course Rory knows he's the bitch But I really do like him. I feel like he has a lot more purpose than, say, Mickey. I never really liked Mickey that much...I dunno why.
But who else would be willing to go through what Rory does? And, without him, we wouldn't have gotten one of my favorite quotes: "Oh, Rory. That's a relief! I though I burst out of the wrong cake...again."
But I could quote him all day...have you seen this video? It sums up my love for him in nine minutes. Nine awesome minutes!
Spoiler:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8wLSlgPjg8"]YouTube - Doctor Who Funniest Lines [Series Five Edition][/ame]
(some possibly spoiling clips, hence the tags..)
Also...you've read most of the novels, I feel like assuming. Which ones do you recommend? I really want to get ahold of a few, but I don't want to pick up some that aren't as wonderful as others....
Oh no, i haven't even read a tenth of the novels. I just have a cursory knowledge of them. I certainly haven't read any of the ones based on the new series, apart from the Story of Martha. That's a good one. Definitely needs to be read after watching Series 3, though. Especially the finale.
As for any others, well, i'll be honest: most i've read are not only firmly set in the era of the classic series, but were aimed at fans who knew a great deal about it. They're also hard to get hold of. Sorry, but i really don't know which novels to recommend, i'm afraid!
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
That's okay. That's what I get for assuming. You know what they say about assuming....
I will just test my luck, like I do with every novel. No biggie! Though, I am temped to get the audio book read by Smith...even though I hate audiobooks. If I run across any good ones, I will certainly let you know.
I forgot to mention this earlier...do you know what Gaiman's episode will involve? I haven't been able to find anything (they are quite tight-lipped around the new season, it seems...unlike most US shows where I can find the synopsis or script of episodes months before they air...)
Not sure yet, but I think it's centred around a kid. I'll let you know any details I stumble across that aren't too spoilery, anyway!
Oh, and favourite Smith line: "It's a Jammy Dodger, but I was promised tea!" Doctor Who and Jammy Dodgers combined! I thought my username would be the only example of that!
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
So could i! But then, i'm the same with tom baker's doctor:
"I say! What a wonderful butler, he's so violent!"
"You're a beautiful woman, probably."
"Eureka is greek for "this bath is too hot!""
"Your name is too long. By the time i've called out, "Look out"...what was your name?" "Romanadvrotnalunda." "Well by the time i've called that out, you could be dead!"
Not surprising he was so popular for so long!
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
"TARDIS tick-tick Daleks BOOM!" That's another personal favorite! And "Oh, that's bad. Extremely very not good!"
I decided recently that when I get through Tennant's stuff, the first classic Doctor is going to be Baker. He seems to be the all-around favorite, from who I've talked to.
Another favourite Baker quote I've just remembered, and undoubtedly one of the best:
"Now drop your weapons, or I'll kill him with this deadly jelly baby!" "Kill him then." "What?" "Kill him then!" "....I don't take orders from anyone!"
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
my favorite 4th doctor quote: "well you must be the second most clever person in the room"
That's awesome
It reminds me of what my friend's mom used to say. "Always make sure you talk to the smartest person in the room. That's why I get in trouble for talking to myself all the time."
Okay...random thought from New Earth: I loved Tennant when he was
Spoiler:
taken over by Lady Cassandra
That was easily the funniest part of series 2 so far, so me. Mostly because it was so absurd. I enjoyed, but I don't think I even want to see Tennant move like that again!
Another random thought: Have any of you read The Legend of Drizzt by R.A. Salvatore?
I was watching The Runaway Bride the other day, and Archanos remind me of Lolth. Anyone else notice this?
Never read it, but I've heard a lot about it. As a fan of Forgotten Realms videogames, i need to read those books sometime. Just recently watched The Runaway Bride by the way, and I still loved the moment when
Spoiler:
the Doctor says the word "Gallifrey" for the first time in the new series (seriously, after two years of that word being carefully avoided the whole time, that was a big moment for us classic Who fans to hear it) and then becoming one mean, ruthless bastard with the Rachnoss's children.
Also, the second mention of
Spoiler:
the mysterious "Mr. Saxon", after Love and Monsters
. It would be a few months before we discovered just who Saxon was...
And I've got another awesome thing to post on here: the proper trailer for the Day of the Daleks Special Edition dvd! True, i wasn't blown away by the news when i heard it, as that teaser suggested something huge, something like a plan to finally animate the lost episodes, but I must admit: the new trailer does make it look amazing:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Rlss3Krt7g&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - DWO - Day of the Daleks DVD Special Edition - 2|Entertain - Trailer[/ame]
Speaking as someone who's seen the original (way back on video when I was just starting out as a Who fan, and getting any video I could that had both Pertwee and Daleks in it), this makes it look so much better. True, sometimes new special effects aren't really needed, but I think this is a case of a really good, really dark interesting story of a future distopia that was let down slightly by the budget. (An invasion with just 3 daleks? Three?!?) But this? Oh, this looks like a vast improvement! Can't wait to see it!
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
I was excited when he finally mentioned his home planet! It was a cool moment, especially followed by that ruthless act, indeed. I had a feeling he was finally going to say it when he kept insisting "I'm not from Mars!"
When, exactly, does Saxon show up, then? I'm familiar with him, but I don't think I've seen the episode where he first appears...at least, not all of it. I know I've mentioned it before, but while I have been a causal DW fan for a while, this is the first time I've sat down and watched them all in the correct order, so it's an interesting transition for me!
That looks like it could be a cool DVD release! Do you think they are going to add more Daleks, then? Or is it just more general visual effects? Though, I think if any creature could invade Earth with only 3 creatures, the Daleks would probably be up there on my list of possibilities.
Also, something I've been meaning to say: As a sparse watcher of series 1-4 before recently, I didn't really get why people were freaking out over Matt Smith replacing Tennant. But....now that I've watched 18 or so Tennant episodes in the last week, I can see it. My Doctor is still Eleven, without a doubt, but Ten has certainly grown on me! Tennant just seems to bring a certain lightness and joviality to the role that was missing with Nine, IMO.
They say you always remember your first doctor...so I think Matt Smith will always be my favorite!
But....if Tennant had gotten there first, who knows? I don't think it's out of the question to say he's a good second! (Plus, he gains a lot of point from me for wearing glasses on screen and being Scottish...his accent in Tooth and Claw? )
I'm not gonna say when or where he first shows up, just that he's the new "arc word" of the series, like Bad Wolf or Torchwood. He's only referenced to in the modern day episodes, and his story is fully resolved in the finale. When you do see the first episode he makes an appearance, be sure to PM me about your reaction, as mine was of total shock when it happened!
And regarding Day of the Daleks, it looks like they've added more to a couple of scenes already, from what i've seen of the trailer. And I do agree with you about the Daleks being able to invade with just three
Spoiler:
they did something similar with Doomsday, after all)
, but not only are these earlier Daleks that aren't quite as powerful as what we've seen in the new series, there were many times when they'd tried to make the invasion look bigger in Day and failed. Hopefully, they'll have sorted out this problem. The new voices will also help, as the original voices were pretty naff, really.
And yeah, you don't forget your first Doctor. Mine was Pertwee really, from watching repeats on BBC2 when I was about 5 years old. Loved the show even back then: the theme tune, the daleks, the awesomeness of Pertwee's Doctor and his venusian aikido, wonderful stuff!
Never be cruel and never be cowardly. And if you ever are, always make amends.
You are a walking talking Doctor Who encyclopedia to me. - Melike
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Originally Posted by DoctorDodge
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