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Thread: Thousand lost worlds of the rose *spoilers*

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    :radioactive: Thousand lost worlds of the rose *spoilers*

    So... how did it work for Callahan?

    One day he got up and he was in a world where the bedcover of the motel room where he stayed was pink (it was in Leabrook) and some days later he got up in another one where it was orange (in Fort Lee). So he could tell easily in which world he got up.
    But hey... if he was slipping from one world to the other... doesn't it mean that once he existed in this one and on the other day he existed in that one?

    It means that when he went to work to Leabrook Homestyle Dinner he didn't exist in Fort Lee so he could not go to work there!
    Do you get the point?
    He can't exist in two worlds at the same time so he must be missing in one of them and it means he should get fired very quickly because on every second or third day he doesn't go to work. (We know he does but in another world.)

    Or can he exist and go to work in both of the worlds at the same time? How so? If he can't why doesn't he get fired very quickly? (I am sure you remember that the owner of the place told he if he was late twice he would get fired immedaitely.) How can he work this way for 3 weeks?
    I hope you see where the hard paradox is and why I don't find the answer.
    I hope you can help me.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    I completely get what you're saying as the thought occurred to me as well.

    Anyway, spoilers ahead for the Dark Tower books and minor spoilers for Salem's Lot and The Talisman.


    That whole period seemed strange to me as shortly before arriving at the hotel, Callahan had to specifically go across a specific hidden bridge, and suddenly he is flipping worlds willy-nilly.

    One explanation could just be that he was very drunk for much of that time, so his vagueness is due to that. I.e he could have been still walking down highways in hiding etc. he just didn't mention it or forgot. No I don't buy that either, considering the change in bed clothes etc.(Just as well that bed in the other world wasn't occupied wasn't it. Hee hee.)

    As for the diner, I suppose it's possible that when he crossed worlds he just applied for the job again in that world but didn't mention it. I agree that's not the impression we got though.

    When I mentioned this on the DT.net site, some while ago, another poster, Ivanova, suggested it might be a twinner thing. I.e. there was another Callahan in the other world with a parallel history who applied for a job in that diner, and flipping across during his sleep simply caused him to enter that person's body. Like what happens to folk with twinners in the Talisman.

    I'm not convinced, but it's an interesting explanation and it would explain a lot.

    I have another theory, that when Callahan enters a world, he somehow is actually incorporated into the history of that world too. I.e. a history is created for him maybe... like a place holder. How this happens I don't know for sure, but I seem to remember a scene when Eddie and Roland are talking about Callahan. They mention the part of his story when he took the child's funeral in Jerusalem's Lot, and how Callahan felt a sudden sense of unreality, otherness. They speculated that Callahan originated from another world, (possibly the Keystone world) and actually crossed over into the world of Salem's world at that moment, although he was unaware that is what had happened at the time, apart from the feeling of dislocation. (Little aside- remember someone else who felt something like that at the start of the Revised Gunslinger?)

    That puzzled me though, since Callahan had a history in Salem's Lot which he even relates. He remembers taking up residence there, and he had been asked to attend the funeral, so how could he have crossed over into that world during the funeral that he had been asked to take? Answer: a history was generated for him in that world. (Course the twinner thing would work here too, but what would be the point in this case?) I.e, although he had been mentioned in passing earlier in the book, that was the first time we actually saw him in person, in that book (Salem's Lot I mean.) That's the first time he actually appears in the story. So to follow the mythology of The Dark Tower, he entered that world at that point... complete with a history in that world generated for him by Gan, the writer, whoever.

    It perhaps also explains why Susannah's memory of Mid-World faded when she took up residence in that other world with Eddie and Jake Toren (bearing in mind her ka was finished in End-World.) The 'generated history' theory might also explain how Roland was able to pick up the horn, even though he was returned to a point after that particular moment.

    It's a bit confusing but I hope that makes sense.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Wow, Brainslinger thank you for taking your time to write down your thoughts because they are very interesting. I need some time to think about them to be able to decide if the paradox is solved or not.
    Write as much as possible my friend.

    Roland would have understood.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    I believe it is a Twinner thing, actually. However, I will not fill this wonderful thread with my "crazy" ideas. That is what this thread is for.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    I believe it is a Twinner thing, actually. However, I will not fill this wonderful thread with my "crazy" ideas. That is what this thread is for.
    Agreed on all accounts.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    Great minds, my friend...

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Indeed.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    I believe it is a Twinner thing, actually. However, I will not fill this wonderful thread with my "crazy" ideas. That is what this thread is for.
    I'm pretty much in agreement on this one. Multiple worlds, multiple Callahans. Somehow this Callahan obtained consciousness of the others and was able to maneuver between them, whether intentionally or not, he was able to piece together a somewhat cohesive memory of being more than one of himself. Neat trick.

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    Roont Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice has much to be proud of Brice's Avatar

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    I don't know. I think the nature of dimensional travel would inherently carry a new and seperate history. I don't think they'd be different yous. I think you'd just have entirely different histories (memories and all) as you passed into a new dimension/world/whatever.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

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    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    I personally don't believe that Twinners are "different" yous. *shrugs*

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    that's also entirely possible Brice.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    I personally don't believe that Twinners are "different" yous. *shrugs*
    that sounds like something i'd like to hear you expand upon some more...

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    I don't know. I think the nature of dimensional travel would inherently carry a new and seperate history. I don't think they'd be different yous. I think you'd just have entirely different histories (memories and all) as you passed into a new dimension/world/whatever.

    This is how I see it also.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Numenorean ManOfWesternesse is on a distinguished road ManOfWesternesse's Avatar

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    Damn good question again Letti.
    It's very hard to see how it's not a paradox unless there are .... not exactly 'twinners' (I think) but ... variations of Callahan living normally in those other realities. 'Our' Callahan happened upon a way of shuffling himself from one to another. (Don't know if that affects those other Callahans at all or not - maybe they never even realise it's happening.)
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    If there are (presumably) infinite worlds then every possibility must exist as reality somewhere.

    To my mind they are not different Callahan's in the conventional sense of different. They are all him...sorta' kinda' like the christian concept of a trinity just multiplied exponentially. They are different and the same simultaneously.
    The Awesomest fled across the desert and The Awesomer followed.

    If you rescue me
    Iíll be your friend forever


    I wish that I could write fiction, but that seems almost an impossibility. -howard phillips lovecraft (1915)



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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManOfWesternesse View Post
    Damn good question again Letti.
    It's very hard to see how it's not a paradox unless there are .... not exactly 'twinners' (I think) but ... variations of Callahan living normally in those other realities. 'Our' Callahan happened upon a way of shuffling himself from one to another. (Don't know if that affects those other Callahans at all or not - maybe they never even realise it's happening.)
    Thats what I think Brice is on to, above.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brice View Post
    I don't know. I think the nature of dimensional travel would inherently carry a new and seperate history. I don't think they'd be different yous. I think you'd just have entirely different histories (memories and all) as you passed into a new dimension/world/whatever.
    The only way that could be possible is if you already existed in the worlds. I.e. a separate "you" already had the memories. If you flip back and forth, then one of you assumes the consciousness of the other without realizing it, thus no disparity between peoples, like when Jack is able to speak the language of the territories without realizing he is doing it.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    I just realized that Jack is unique because his twin Jason died, but the point remains- that's the reason that he is able to speak the other language, or Callahan is able to use different currency is because of the existence of another person/reality. I don't know, this is confusing.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post

    The only way that could be possible is if you already existed in the worlds. I.e. a separate "you" already had the memories. If you flip back and forth, then one of you assumes the consciousness of the other without realizing it, thus no disparity between peoples, like when Jack is able to speak the language of the territories without realizing he is doing it.
    but Jack does not have a twinner in the Territories. he is a singular entity. he's not assuming the consciousness of a twinner, he is still himself. don't ask me what collectice consciousness he taps into to speak the local language, it's a good trick, but i don't think he flipped into another jack, i think he flipped 100% of himself into the Territories. No?

    ok, just saw your post there. nevermind. i do agree with the rest of what you said anyhow.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Yeah, Jayson, there must be a collective conscious to tap into or Jack wouldn't be able to speak the language or use sticks for currency. I think its the same thing going on with Callahan.

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    I have another theory, that when Callahan enters a world, he somehow is actually incorporated into the history of that world too. I.e. a history is created for him maybe... like a place holder.
    I know this answer above is not perfect (I don't think we can get a perfect answer for this question) but this is the only one my mind can accept. It's still damn hard but maybe it can work for me.
    Keep thinking about it.
    Ehhh...

    Somehow I am not into this Twin-thing. It doesn't work for me. I don't really know why. That's okay that there are tons of worlds out there and there are many Callahans but I simply can't think of them as twins. For me all of them have their own lives and fates and they can be incredibly different. There are many Callahans out there who could never find their ways to Calla.

    Roland would have understood.

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    I think with Callahan, it wasn't even necessary for him to be absorbed into the history of whichever place he flips into - hes simply on the road (in more ways than one) he's outside of society and doesn't need a background.

    I don't think he is part of the Twinner phenomenon either, Twinners are quite rare, as Parkus points out in the Talisman. And you don't have to be a Twinner to travel the highways in hiding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    Somehow I am not into this Twin-thing. It doesn't work for me.
    I knew I loved you for a whole lot of reasons, and here's one of them!

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    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    Palaver Castle Chef mia/susannah is on a distinguished road mia/susannah's Avatar

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    The twinner does not work for me either. I pretty much agree with Brainlinger. A history was created for him

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    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    Thanks. I don't think the history thing is always the case though. For example when Roland goes through a doorway America-side, I'm not suggesting that he automatically has a history in that world too, that he's suddenly an American citizen, the son of Steve the sheriff of Bangor,or whatever. (That was a rubbish example but I'm sure you know what I mean.)

    I think it works for the more subtle flipping of worlds that Callahan undertakes though, i.e. where he just passes through worlds as easily as walking down the road or falling asleep.

    That kind of throws a spanner in the works of my theory concerning Susannah's change in memory in DT7... but not entirely. She likely doesn't have a history in that new world, but obviously some kind of incorporation is still taking place with the fading of her memories and the changing of her ka.

    I think basically, different things happen in different circumstances, depending on the nature of what the character is meant to do. (It's tempting to say, it happens to how the writer writes it but that's too obvious and it's nice to find an 'in story' explanation isn't it?)

    It reminds me a bit of when Hiro from that series Heroes teleports into another time and space, even though he has just appeared, nobody around shows any surprise. Almost as if he just somehow becomes incorporated into the history of that place somehow... (Actually it's probably got more to say about other peoples lack of observation, but anyhow.)

    Sorry, I'm not trying to turn this into a Heroes discussion. I just thought the parallel was interesting.

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