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  1. #26
    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    That is exactly what I mean. The CK was "trapped" but only in a physical way on the Tower balcony.

    However, I believe Linda's point is that no matter what he did or how hard he tried, a being like the CK could never actually climb to the top. Because the Tower is you in many ways and what was inside of him prevented that.

    The balcony and locked door are simply ways to physically illustrate the fact.
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    Palaver Castle Chef mia/susannah is on a distinguished road mia/susannah's Avatar

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    matt, I think you and alinda had a great answer. I tend to think along the same lines

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Its interesting speculation, but I don't see any basis in it. We know that the Crimson King has been trying to bring down the Tower for a long, long time. We know that he snapped when he saw Roland's ka-tet's victory at Blue Heaven, killed almost everyone in his castle, and then rode to the Dark Tower wrapped in a storm, and got onto a balcony of the Tower and was trapped on the balcony.
    We also know from events in Black House
    Spoiler:
    that he was weakened by the destruction of An Tak, his engine for spreading discordia, strong speculation says that An Tak is the same as the King's Forge.

    My speculation still stands that Los' was trapped on the Tower balcony because of the re-awakening Beams weakening him and by Gan so that he doesn't climb to the top where there is a real possibility he could destroy the Dark Tower.
    So Gan and the Beams have trapped the King until Roland and Patrick come to do battle with him and hopefully win. I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
    I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  4. #29
    aka lindakins alinda has a spectacular aura about alinda has a spectacular aura about alinda has a spectacular aura about alinda's Avatar

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    Maybe it was his KA.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Its interesting speculation, but I don't see any basis in it. We know that the Crimson King has been trying to bring down the Tower for a long, long time. We know that he snapped when he saw Roland's ka-tet's victory at Blue Heaven, killed almost everyone in his castle, and then rode to the Dark Tower wrapped in a storm, and got onto a balcony of the Tower and was trapped on the balcony.
    We also know from events in Black House
    Spoiler:
    that he was weakened by the destruction of An Tak, his engine for spreading discordia, strong speculation says that An Tak is the same as the King's Forge.

    My speculation still stands that Los' was trapped on the Tower balcony because of the re-awakening Beams weakening him and by Gan so that he doesn't climb to the top where there is a real possibility he could destroy the Dark Tower.
    So Gan and the Beams have trapped the King until Roland and Patrick come to do battle with him and hopefully win. I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
    I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.
    I'm very much in agreement with CK on this one. The three Stephen Kings pretty much say the same thing to Roland and Susannah. CK was permanently placed on the balcony once Blue Heaven was destroyed. Fimalo tells Roland that his interest in going to the tower is self serving for the fact that it might give Los an out if he obtains one of the guns of Eld, which would let him leave the balcony. Other than that, the CK is trapped indefinitely.

  6. #31
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    I don't think CK can/could destroy the Tower.
    He is the prisoner of the balcony because... how can I put it into words... it's like when a splinter goes into your finger. Slowly you body throws and pushes it out because it feels it doesn't belong there. A little splinter under the skin can't kill the body but that's how the body works.
    I feel something similar happened to CK, too.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    Great description of the idea Letti. I agree and I think the CK could be summed up as nothing more than an irritant to the Dark Tower.

    It is, after all, the center off all time and space and size.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  8. #33
    The Tenant Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean has much to be proud of Jean's Avatar

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    I don't know if I agree with the idea, but it sure is a terrific metaphor!

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (pablo)

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  9. #34
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Thank you, guys. It came to my mind immediately as I tried to explain how I thought it and I couldn't get rid of it... so I wrote it down.

    Roland would have understood.

  10. #35
    Haven Fund Facilitator Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958 has a brilliant future Merlin1958's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Its interesting speculation, but I don't see any basis in it. We know that the Crimson King has been trying to bring down the Tower for a long, long time. We know that he snapped when he saw Roland's ka-tet's victory at Blue Heaven, killed almost everyone in his castle, and then rode to the Dark Tower wrapped in a storm, and got onto a balcony of the Tower and was trapped on the balcony.
    We also know from events in Black House
    Spoiler:
    that he was weakened by the destruction of An Tak, his engine for spreading discordia, strong speculation says that An Tak is the same as the King's Forge.

    My speculation still stands that Los' was trapped on the Tower balcony because of the re-awakening Beams weakening him and by Gan so that he doesn't climb to the top where there is a real possibility he could destroy the Dark Tower.
    So Gan and the Beams have trapped the King until Roland and Patrick come to do battle with him and hopefully win. I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
    I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.

    This may seem a little simpler than you all would prefer but I think the CK became the prisoner of the Tower for the simple reason that he was crazy enough to enter it. Plus. as previously mentioned in this thread. he removed his mark of Eld. I think that removing the mark trapped him on the balcony itself but had he not removed it he still would not be strong enough to reach the room at the top.

    I think the key to the CK be able to "enter the room" was weakening and bringing the Tower down to his level a la Satan in Paradise Lost. Otherwise, what would really have prevented him from entering the Tower long before Roland ever got there? As the comics hint, wasn't the "Evil Plan" to bring forth a child bearing the mark of Eld with Chaos seed from the start? otherwise why the ruse in the court of Arthur Eld (Gunslinger Born)?

    Just some thoughts

  11. #36
    Palaver Castle Chef mia/susannah is on a distinguished road mia/susannah's Avatar

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    merlin1958, great post. I don't have the comics to read but I tend to think that CK is trapped on the balcony to keep him from causing more damage to the Dark Tower. I may be wrong

  12. #37
    Futurama pathoftheturtle is just really nice pathoftheturtle is just really nice pathoftheturtle is just really nice pathoftheturtle is just really nice pathoftheturtle is just really nice pathoftheturtle's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    I don't think CK can/could destroy the Tower.
    He is the prisoner of the balcony because... how can I put it into words... it's like when a splinter goes into your finger. Slowly you body throws and pushes it out because it feels it doesn't belong there. A little splinter under the skin can't kill the body but that's how the body works.
    I feel something similar happened to CK, too.
    It can lead to an infection, actually, and end up killing you that way. I may be wrong, and I hate to contradict the positive attitude, because I basically agree about the CK as a threat. However, I have never had the experience, myself, of a splinter just being pushed out. I know the body feels it doesn’t belong there, and it will react, in part by sending you increasing pain signals, but when I get a splinter, I go after it myself, with a needle. In India, they say “It takes a thorn to remove a thorn.” What I mean to say, in essence, is that I think Gan uses Roland.
    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    ...I am not convinced that Gan holds all the cards and has total control over all events so that it can make sure Roland wins in each loop and stop the Crimson King.
    I think the danger to the Tower is real each time.
    Perhaps. You may be right; King does seem awfully fond of that idea that “the column of truth has a hole in it.” I personally do believe it, though... that it is ka, it’s meant to be, all of that...
    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    ...The three Stephen Kings pretty much say the same thing to Roland and Susannah. CK was permanently placed on the balcony once Blue Heaven was destroyed. Fimalo tells Roland that his interest in going to the tower is self serving for the fact that it might give Los an out if he obtains one of the guns of Eld, which would let him leave the balcony. Other than that, the CK is trapped indefinitely.
    Okay, well, let me just say once and for all that I do not trust Rando Thoughtful. “Stephen King” and “Fimalo” both turn out to be aliases; the only thing from this scene which “we know” for sure is that they were definitely deceptive, offering food that was really foulest poison. Plus, this guy says “The job is done, there’s no more threat, everything is fine,” and then he gets eaten by Mordred. I say that if they’d listened to him, the same (at best) is what would have happened to the multiverse: we all would have gotten eaten by Mordred.
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt View Post
    ...I personally believe The Tower is a personal manifestation and so if we assume it is the "CK" Tower than it trapped him because of what was inside himself. Evil
    If I understand what you are saying, I don’t quite agree with that idea, either.
    Another nineteen steps took him to the second landing and the second room. Here bits of cloth were scattered across the circular floor. Roland had no question that they had once been an infant’s clout, torn to shreds by a certain petulant interloper, who had then gone out onto the balcony for a look back at the field of roses and found himself betaken.
    The simplest explanation would seem to be that “the interloper” was petulant over the fact that these rooms are dedicated to the life of Roland. Do you think the torn clout was pure illusion made for Roland? That he sees it as a “translation” of some other artifact, one from CK’s own life, that he had torn up for some other reason? Or could you agree with me that the evil inside him might have gotten him trapped even if The Tower we're shown is a universal manifestation?

    I like this thread a lot, Letti, and hope to try to give my own answers for the questions which you started it with, before too long. At the moment, though, I just felt like bumping it, and sharing some opinions about these other theories. Hope it's alright.
    "This is the hard part about looking for time travelers: they don't want to be found."
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  13. #38
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean View Post
    Too bad the comics autors followed him.
    But they are led by Stephen King, which is why I take it as canon. I know that you refuse to consider extra material once a series has reached "The End" though

    Quote Originally Posted by pathoftheturtle View Post
    Roland had no question that they had once been an infant’s clout, torn to shreds by a certain petulant interloper, who had then gone out onto the balcony for a look back at the field of roses and found himself betaken.
    The simplest explanation would seem to be that “the interloper” was petulant over the fact that these rooms are dedicated to the life of Roland. Do you think the torn clout was pure illusion made for Roland? That he sees it as a “translation” of some other artifact, one from CK’s own life, that he had torn up for some other reason? Or could you agree with me that the evil inside him might have gotten him trapped even if The Tower we're shown is a universal manifestation?
    That's an excellent point! Because I think we generally assume that the Tower is different for each individual that enters it.

    Then again, if you need the mark of the Eld to reach the top, perhaps it is only for people of that lineage and the rooms within are only pertainent to those of the Eld.

    Or...

    ...perhaps as Roland is trapped in the loop, the Tower is for him alone (which would mirror his obsession with it) and therefore anyone entering it would see the rooms Roland sees time and time again.

  14. #39
    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    Considering whether the Tower was ever really in danger from the Crimson King...

    If the beams had all weakened, certainly. However, ka is such that, I think Roland would prevent that from happening each loop. I might have misunderstood the way ka works, but considering that there appear to have been lots of loops before this, and Roland saved the Beams each time it seems a fair conclusion to come to.

    If the Crimson King reached the top room, also very likely the Tower would fall. However, would he ever reach the top, even if he had never been trapped on the balcony? If he had reached the door at the top, couldn't the Tower have just deposited him somewhere in his past like it did Roland? Maybe sticking him on the balcony was just to make certain of his fate with the gunslinger, and er, rubberslinger. (That's eraserslinger in Americanese. I'm not suggesting Patrick flicked condoms at him, although that is a funny image,

    Red eyes eh? thought Patrick. How's this for an encore?

    Thwack!
    "EEEEEEEEEE!") A way of dealing with him once and for all. Well, in this loop anyway. (I think it's still relevant and that time continues even when Roland is sent back. Otherwise Susannah meeting with the new brothers Toren would be short-lived.)

    Ultimately, I'm not convinced the Tower would/will ever fall.

  15. #40
    Au Naturale theBeamisHome is on a distinguished road theBeamisHome's Avatar

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    gosh guys... i thought he couldn't go up because he didn't have the guns.. lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    If the Crimson King reached the top room, also very likely the Tower would fall. However, would he ever reach the top, even if he had never been trapped on the balcony? If he had reached the door at the top, couldn't the Tower have just deposited him somewhere in his past like it did Roland?
    I was thinking this earlier when I was reading this thread. It seems a little contradictory doesn't it.
    On one hand we're told that if the CK reaches the top he will vanquish the Tower. But on the other hand, the Tower has the power to throw Roland into a loop each time he reaches the summit - so why not the CK too?

    Unless of course, its something to do with the Tower's power only being relative to Roland - which again fits in with the idea that the loop is outside of time and the actions performed in each loop affect nothing but Roland, ie the whole journey is a purgatory (but obviously not an infinite one, as shown by Roland obtaining the horn on the last loop).
    Last edited by Darkthoughts; 01-24-2009 at 05:51 AM.

  17. #42
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    ...perhaps as Roland is trapped in the loop, the Tower is for him alone (which would mirror his obsession with it) and therefore anyone entering it would see the rooms Roland sees time and time again.
    Yes, I agree that the Tower is for Roland alone but I don't think CK could have seen those rooms full of Roland's past.
    I think he would have seen empty rooms and he would have found a blank door at the top of the Tower (that would have never opened for him BUT for my part I think the Tower forced him to step on the balcony to lock him out. He didn't belong there.

    Roland would have understood.

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    But the CK had ripped up some of Roland's baby clothes in the room who's balcony he was trapped in...

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brainslinger View Post
    Considering whether the Tower was ever really in danger from the Crimson King...

    If the beams had all weakened, certainly. However, ka is such that, I think Roland would prevent that from happening each loop. ...
    Yeah, that's what I think, too. What the CK's minion says is that he has found a way into the Tower's mouth, and holds it against Roland; that if he cannot climb it, he just wants to deny Roland what he wants, and doesn't care at all about understanding it.

    I believe that Roland (and his inevitable approach) is what was on the CK's mind when he stepped out to look back. His own fear and apprehension led him to make the choice that ka wanted him to. He's really just there to oppose the hero's entry.

    What I don't agree with is the advice to let him have his way in that. Rando Thoughtful says that they'll pass beyond ka if they don't turn back, but I don't think that's true at all. Taking the guns might be the CK's plan, but that doesn't mean that Roland has to be afraid. It comes down to a judgement call, but I think the call that he does make is the one that keeps him under ka's protection.
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  20. #45
    Servant of Gan Brainslinger will become famous soon enough Brainslinger's Avatar

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    What I don't agree with is the advice to let him have his way in that. Rando Thoughtful says that they'll pass beyond ka if they don't turn back, but I don't think that's true at all.
    I agree. I don't think the 3 Kings were lying over a lot of the things they said, (apart from the 'food' and their disguise of course) but I do think they may have been incorrect on some particulars. Particularly that bit about being beyond ka. I don't think anyone is ever beyond ka (in the world of the story), except possibly when they die.... and maybe not even then.

  21. #46
    Gunslinger Apprentice Bumbler19 is on a distinguished road

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    well i thought i understood this well...

    CK in a way renounced the tower even when he was inside it, the fact he took a gander outside shows he puts himself before the tower, HE wanted to take one last look outside, or one last look at what he intended to destroy. He was Selfish, therefore barred from reentry.

    Its like... you are on your way to heaven, eternal bliss, amazingness, eternal life, everything you could ever dream of you ever wanted you ever needed right there in heaven and you are on your way there, but then being like... I think i'll stop at the red light district to get one last Squirt out on a whore before I go... personally I don't think God is gonna go for that, do you?

    Roland wanted to make it to the top... period.

  22. #47
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bumbler19 View Post
    Its like... you are on your way to heaven, eternal bliss, amazingness, eternal life, everything you could ever dream of you ever wanted you ever needed right there in heaven and you are on your way there, but then being like... I think i'll stop at the red light district to get one last Squirt out on a whore before I go... personally I don't think God is gonna go for that, do you?
    Hm, nice thought.
    But if you ever can step on the path to Heaven I don't think you are that type of person who will take a short visit at your favourite whore.

    CK never had a chance to enter the top room. My two cents.

    Roland would have understood.

  23. #48
    A darker ocean green razz will become famous soon enough razz's Avatar

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    here's a question: Why did he go out ON to the Balcony? was he forced onto it? Because i seriously doubt he became distracted by the beauty of the CanKaNoRe when he looked out there.
    All those moments will be lost in time...like tears in rain.

  24. #49
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by razz View Post
    here's a question: Why did he go out ON to the Balcony? was he forced onto it? Because i seriously doubt he became distracted by the beauty of the CanKaNoRe when he looked out there.
    Because he thought he owned everything and he wanted to feel it with every sick cell of his. You know... when you buy your new castle and you don't give a damn about the view but the money you spent and you feel proud and you step in the balcony and you feel you are the king of the world.
    Something like this.

    Roland would have understood.

  25. #50
    A darker ocean green razz will become famous soon enough razz's Avatar

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    So the crazy mofo did it because he wanted to fell like a homeowner?
    All those moments will be lost in time...like tears in rain.

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