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Thread: The Waystation Scene *Possible spoilers for the series within*

  1. #26
    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    I think of the Dark Tower, at times, as a comparison between Roland and Walter in the sense of two characters with similar aims and drives, but ultimately good or evil because of divine influence (Roland and Gan, Walter and Los).
    that's an interesting take on it, though i don't see Gan as good or evil, but transcendent of good and evil. Gan is the World Axis - in his embodiment as the Tower - and thus stands at the center of the pairs of polar opposites [good and evil being among the categories]. Los is clearly representative of evil, no question about that, but I'm unsure whether I would agree that Gan represents "good." Still, you make an intriguing case.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    I'm just saying that I the fact that the passage quoted at the beginning of this thread is even more significant because it is in the revised edition.
    The passage at the beginning of this thread I quoted is from Wolves of the Calla. There is no revision to that book, that I know of.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post

    I think of the Dark Tower, at times, as a comparison between Roland and Walter in the sense of two characters with similar aims and drives, but ultimately good or evil because of divine influence (Roland and Gan, Walter and Los).
    This is an interesting perspective, although like Jayson said, I don't view as Gan as supposed to be "good" or "evil".
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    I still don't see my quote from the book as a confession, consious or otherwise, to Callahan. But as a surprise insight into Walter and into how he views the justification of his actions.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    My bad Mathew... I'm really tired. Still, I stand by my point. God, I'm really tired- severe bout of insomnia the last week. By placing Callahan in the context of the first novel was where I was coming from, but my wires got crossed.*

    *Plus, I'm an idiot.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    My bad Mathew... I'm really tired. Still, I stand by my point. God, I'm really tired- severe bout of insomnia the last week. By placing Callahan in the context of the first novel was where I was coming from, but my wires got crossed.*
    No problem, maybe you should have a "daycap", some whiskey or rum, and hit the hay?

    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    *Plus, I'm an idiot.
    Bullshit. I wouldn't bother chatting with you if you were in an idiot. Also, you're a Dark Tower fan and that alone says you're smart.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by R_of_G View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    I think of the Dark Tower, at times, as a comparison between Roland and Walter in the sense of two characters with similar aims and drives, but ultimately good or evil because of divine influence (Roland and Gan, Walter and Los).
    that's an interesting take on it, though i don't see Gan as good or evil, but transcendent of good and evil. Gan is the World Axis - in his embodiment as the Tower - and thus stands at the center of the pairs of polar opposites [good and evil being among the categories]. Los is clearly representative of evil, no question about that, but I'm unsure whether I would agree that Gan represents "good." Still, you make an intriguing case.
    Jayson, you know that we essentially agree about Gan's nature. That's why I qualified my statement by saying "at times." Because of these dualistic themes, I think its hard to see Roland as good all the time or Walter as evil all of the time. It really fits for me, they are both what Ka has made them, and Ka is as dualistic as the day is long.

    They are connected in interesting ways (Roland and Walter). Remember when Roland knew that Walter was dead because he stopped seeing him in his dreams...

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    I still don't see my quote from the book as a confession, consious or otherwise, to Callahan. But as a surprise insight into Walter and into how he views the justification of his actions.
    Maybe not in the traditional sense, but Walter seems to regard Callahan with a respect that is similar to how he responds to Roland. I think this might be because he recognizes him as an agent of the white.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post

    Jayson, you know that we essentially agree about Gan's nature. That's why I qualified my statement by saying "at times." Because of these dualistic themes, I think its hard to see Roland as good all the time or Walter as evil all of the time. It really fits for me, they are both what Ka has made them, and Ka is as dualistic as the day is long.

    They are connected in interesting ways (Roland and Walter). Remember when Roland knew that Walter was dead because he stopped seeing him in his dreams...
    I do agree in principle with what you are saying about Roland and Walter. Neither is 100% good or 100% evil, nor could either succeed in their individual quests if they were.

    It's the question of Los and Gan as opposing forces that I am not so sure about. One is clearly within the category of evil, while I think the other is beyond all categories of description. Also, while I do think Los has a direct influence on Walter, it's hard to determine if it is actually Gan influencing Roland, or if this is how Roland interprets it, or what. Clearly Gan exists [there is in fact a Tower], but whether or not he actively participates in the world within space and time [of which he is the embodiment] is a matter for further discussion. I'm not altogether sure I've seen anything that definitively suggests Gan takes an active role within the world after its creation from his navel. Even King's whole ves-ka-Gan stuff can be viewed as a writer coming up with a metaphor for that part of his creative process that exceded his capability to understand.

    Or maybe I'm just tired too.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Its confusing Jayson. I'm really just making suggestions.

    I think Gan taking an active role through the Ves Ka makes more sense than anything else so far, but all of our theories are works in progress.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Also, you know one of my first posts had to do with Red vs White creating tension within the text because characters are presented clearly as antagonists or protagonists at times but the metaphysics suggest other wise. This problem has become more difficult for me, not easier, and that was over a thousand posts ago.

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    Big Coffin Hunter jayson is on a distinguished road

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    ...This problem has become more difficult for me, not easier, and that was over a thousand posts ago.
    I think that's what I love most about DT, is that the deeper we explore it, the greater the mystery becomes. I hate easy answers.

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    That's the reason I don't struggle with the series being over, you guys keep it so alive for me.

  14. #39
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Of course its an opinion, most of this is afterall. What I'm saying is I don't see any evidence throughout the series to back up your opinion, about this scene being a confession involving Walter not being able to forgive Gan. So is this just a feeling of yours that you were going by, I'm assuming?
    I don't think that I will be able to give you any evidence but no, it's not just a feeling. I mean I will explain why these thoughts came to my mind with details a bit later but still they won't be evidences.

    Roland would have understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letti View Post
    I don't think that I will be able to give you any evidence but no, it's not just a feeling. I mean I will explain why these thoughts came to my mind with details a bit later but still they won't be evidences.
    I'm not quite sure I'm getting you here, but okay.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Oh, sorry. To sum up I will write down why I think this way.

    Roland would have understood.

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    I wish we could talk about it in person. It would be so much nicer.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  18. #43
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    ***SPOILERS for the entire series***




    I was just considering making a topic about this very scene. Its a good thing I saw saw this one, because in addition to the usual sarcasm of "Oh look, Cyber made another Walter topic" it would have been embarrassing to see it get merged.

    Anyway, the scene with Walter and Callahan is probably one of my favorite scenes in the book and in the series as a whole, mainly because it shows that there's more to Walter than meets the eye.

    I know, looking hurt for a couple of seconds doesn't absolve him of his sins (obviously) but at the same time, one wouldn't expect the Crimson King showing complex emotion in similar scenes. I mean, if you take the comics as canon (and there's no reason why you shouldn't as King's authorizing them and is fully involved) you know that the Crimson King was born from a demon with the sole purpose of bringing down the Tower. Walter, on the other hand, was born a farmboy, ran away and got raped when he was only thirteen or fourteen years old. He's a much more human character.

    I guess its also frustrating as a scene in context with the rest of the series, as it ultimately leads to nothing at all. ("Here he goes again," says the peanut gallery) Just looking at the series now, there was so much untapped potential with the character. King knocked off one of his best villains in exchange for some of his weakest.

    After I read the scene with Callahan, I was sure King was planning something big for the character. I was wrong, obviously. Overall, I really think it left a permanent taint on the series for me and only made the rest of the flaws in DT7 even more apparent.

    Anyway, what did the scene signify? I'm really not sure, mainly because there's not much to supplement it. And King has said that Flagg knows he's evil and enjoys it, so why would he be hurt if he's called cruel? Again, so many questions, and so few answers... I'm not expecting his entire lifestory, but there's still so much left to be told.


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    Very good question CGF. Why doesn't he like to be told cruel? I keep thinking about it. Is it possible that Callahan was wrong and he misunderstood it?

    Roland would have understood.

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    Callahan seems to be the one person to get under Walter's skin, hey? Later on the same page he suggests that Roland is above ka and "Walter recoils, as if struck." Calls Callahan a false priest, spits the words, then they get into that argument about God and the top of the DT. I'm trying to think of a scene that may or may not be a kind of doubling of this one, since it seems to happen so often, usually keystone scenes.

    Interesting is Callahan's response to Walter talking about the Tower:

    "Although Callahan is not entirely sure what the man is talking about, his response if quick and sure." Different than his confrontation with Barlow? Can't imagine Barlow being taken back is Callahan called him cruel. Kinda echoes what Andy said to Eddie, "You're a bad man!" Maybe that's the doubling.

  21. #46
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    Anyone watch Lost? I really get a Ben/Locke vibe from Walter and Callahan. I'd love to see the two interact with each other again.


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    I don't think Walter is justifying anything to Callahan. And I think it is very inline with what he says in the palaver with Roland in The Gunslinger. Walter knows that he plays a part in the battle for the tower, good v evil, and that he has been cast in this part by Ka, the tower, Gan, God, whoever. I think that he relishes this, enjoys playing his part, and doesn't take it very seriously. He's a psychopath, who doesn't care about people or the players in the battle between him and Roland, good v evil, for the tower. It's all a game to him. He doesn't see it as cruel, he sees it as his part to play and he's going to play it and play it well. IMO, he and Roland aren't that far off. The difference is, Roland doesn't see it as a game, and is singly fixed on the tower. Yet Roland doesn't care about the pieces he has to move to get to the tower either, and that's his problem and his curse. Walter, whether it's because his wizardry or power or whatever, understands its a bigger game and doesn't care about the pieces. It's all a joke to him. Roland is fixed on the tower like a razor beam, doesn't understand his part in what's going on, and doesn't see the bigger picture. And because that he doesn't care for the pieces he moves. And that's the whole point, for Roland to come to see that the pieces are people and that he, as an agent for the white, has to gain his objective without being a psychopath that doesn't love or care about those who help him on his path.

    That's my 2 cents.

  23. #48
    John F. Kennedy Random321321 is on a distinguished road

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    I don't like the way King tells us what to think with the line about "complex emotions". Being hurt by an insult is not a complex emotion, and even if it were, leave it to the reader to draw a conclusion like that, don't just state it.

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    It wasn't an insult that hurt Walter, it was the fact he was told he was cruel. A cruel man disliking the fact someone considers him cruel. That suggests a sense of humanity, even conscience (or if not conscience something close to it). Therein lies that sense of complexity; Walter isn't quite the one dimensional villain 'bhuah ha ha' bad guy.

    As for King telling the reader what to think, I didn't really see it that way. In context, it's Callahan that has these thoughts, bringing home the fact that what he is experiencing is no dream.

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    John F. Kennedy unclelouie will become famous soon enough

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    I think he was just talking smack.... plus he was in a hurry... he was going to have to haul ass to catch back up with Roland and Jake..

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