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Thread: Keystone World *DT7 spoilers*

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    I suppose it is.

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    The White! MonteGss is on a distinguished road MonteGss's Avatar

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    I don't know how to respond to this discussion at the moment.




    Let's see, King is needed, of that much I am sure. Why? Fuck if I know.

    I personally am not entirely convinced King didn't create Mid-World. I still don't understand why it is not possible for King to have created/expanded the multiverse, even though he lives in only a small part/time of it. Isn't the act of writing it, creating it? So, really, it doesn't matter at all when it is written, only that it is. He can write about a parallel New York in the 1890s, which is before his time, and that when is created....isn't it?

    Damn I like this thread! A true junkie paradise.

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    M.I.A. Unfound One is on a distinguished road Unfound One's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    I personally am not entirely convinced King didn't create Mid-World. I still don't understand why it is not possible for King to have created/expanded the multiverse, even though he lives in only a small part/time of it. Isn't the act of writing it, creating it? So, really, it doesn't matter at all when it is written, only that it is. He can write about a parallel New York in the 1890s, which is before his time, and that when is created....isn't it?

    Damn I like this thread! A true junkie paradise.
    This IS a good thread

    If I've read this thread correctly, I think that's the debate, Monte.
    If the act of his writing created everything or if Gan predestined things, so to speak.
    And IF Gan predestined things, will they still happen if SK doesn't translate them to paper?
    I'm really not sure either way.

    And then we're back to: does Gan need a kas-ka?
    Damn.


  4. #54
    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Damn is right.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unfound One View Post

    And then we're back to: does Gan need a kas-ka?
    Need, or want...and if so, why?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  6. #56
    M.I.A. Unfound One is on a distinguished road Unfound One's Avatar

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    Sigh.
    I wish I knew for sure.
    I've got more quotes but I'm too tired to type them out right now.
    Sometime tomorrow...


  7. #57
    Constant Reader Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts has a spectacular aura about Darkthoughts's Avatar

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    Ok, seeing as I'm jumping in halfway through a discussion - I'll just go back to the beginning and try and catch up.

    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    So, what does the two worlds being Twins mean? Mid World comes chronologically before, I think. I took Twin to mean they were created by the same thing.
    This is Monte's favourite topic I don't know if you went to his Twins/Twinners thread (I'm working my way down the board) but as you rightly stated above Twinners need essentially to be created at the same time (albeit in different wheres), this is cemented by Wolf telling Jack that Twinners are "litters" of people.
    Twin beings/places can be in different wheres and whens, so I'd say the same point of origin isn't necessarily a factor. Especially if you look at this in terms of authors and worlds of their creation. Some authors purposely create a world that is a twin of some previous authors creation (usually as a hommage), some do it inadvertantly...which leads me on to this...

    Quote Originally Posted by MonteGss View Post
    I guess I believe Gan created "the worlds" in a sense but not creating all of the different levels/different particularties of the Tower.
    Quote Originally Posted by AllHailThe CrimsonKing
    How I see it is Gan created all the worlds within himself...remember the multiverse IS the Dark Tower too, and so the multi-verse is Gan. Of course there is the Outer Dark, the worlds of darkness and Discordia outside Gan. It seems like Gan has a prophet every so often who is a facilitator of its song, who also creates more worlds
    I think Keystone World is important, not just because its where King comes from, but its the level of the Tower where all our authors exist.
    CK, I love how you phrased the lines I bolded in your quote. If you look at authors as Gan's prophets, then its almost as if Keystone World is Gan's "forspecial" drawer, his keepsake box where he keeps all his story spinners together to ensure his song is being eternally sung.

    My understanding of it combines Monte and CK's views - that Gan created the Multiverse (within the Tower) but that it was in part an empty shell - but one with infinite potential that the authors fill with their infinite worlds.

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    M.I.A. Unfound One is on a distinguished road Unfound One's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    I think Keystone World is important, not just because its where King comes from, but its the level of the Tower where all our authors exist.
    CK, I love how you phrased the lines I bolded in your quote. If you look at authors as Gan's prophets, then its almost as if Keystone World is Gan's "forspecial" drawer, his keepsake box where he keeps all his story spinners together to ensure his song is being eternally sung.
    My understanding of it combines Monte and CK's views - that Gan created the Multiverse (within the Tower) but that it was in part an empty shell - but one with infinite potential that the authors fill with their infinite worlds.
    Well said, and this helps me to understand things a bit better.
    However, I'm still confused about the kas-ka.

    Why does all of this information seem to flow through and out of Sai King if it's his own creation? If it was his own creation, I could see where the empty shell theory comes in, but I'm not sure it is.
    He says himself that he's added some of his own opinions, but it definitely seems that it's not his original material. If Gan wants to make sure his song is being eternally sung, it's his original material, right?
    The kas-ka(s) are just there to interpret and record it. (and make it happen? back to that again...)

    Maybe Gan didn't create everything... Maybe we need to consider ka in this whole equation. I like what Ryan said earlier, that ka is unrelated to Gan. Maybe ka is the force that created everything, or, since ka is a wheel and a wheel always turns, maybe everything has always existed and nothing created it. Like steady-state theory in physics. Blah, I feel like I'm talking religion or science now and I'm getting waaaaay off topic. I'm gonna stop.

    And yet again, I still have questions.


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    I would say that SK might feel, for the purpose of the story, that he has embellished the message he's been given (Gan's song) with his own ideas, thus making it his creation...but thats partly an author's ego talking. I like the saying "theres no such thing as an original idea" - in fiction it applies very well to the concept that there were 6 original stories at the beginning of time, and that every story that exists, has its origins in the original six.

    I mean, we know that The dark Tower is not infact SK's concept - it was Robert Browning's...who's to say that Browning's poem wasn't influenced by another writer, etc, etc.

    I think Gan indulges his story tellers by letting them assume they have created more than they did, that much of the Tower existed prior to their contribution - but massaging their ego's is a (small) price Gan is willing to pay for the greater good of the Tower.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkthoughts View Post
    I think Gan indulges his story tellers by letting them assume they have created more than they did, that much of the Tower existed prior to their contribution - but massaging their ego's is a (small) price Gan is willing to pay for the greater good of the Tower.
    I think his kas-ka Gan's at some deep level know, like King did as evidenced in his trance, that they are not the true author but the teller of Gan's tale or the Singer of Gan's song if you'd prefer.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

  11. #61
    Traveler sasquatch012 is on a distinguished road

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    :radioactive: technical nerd question....(SPOILERS)

    roland's world is a keystone world an there is no going back in time right?

    so am i stupid for thinking that this one law completely negates the book's ending? and apologies if this has been covered elsewhere..

  12. #62
    Life is beautiful LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker will become famous soon enough LadyHitchhiker's Avatar

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    Wow! Great post! Welcome to tdt.com!

    I hope someone with a more in depth understanding of time travel will be in here promptly to come up with theories for answers to your questions!!! in the meantime enjoy the site!

  13. #63
    From Sorrow to Hope Sam is on a distinguished road Sam's Avatar

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    The Tower IS the Keystone and can make it's own rules.
    Margaret Emmie Mackey Catoe, you are, have been, and always will be my soulmate, and I love you.
    Con todo mi corazon, por todo de mis dias. And I always will, in this life and into the next.

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  14. #64
    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    It has never been said that Roland's world is the Keystone world.
    The world where Stehpen King lives, that's the Keystone world.

    Welcome to the site, sai.

    Roland would have understood.

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    DT.Org's Official Sweetie Wuducynn will become famous soon enough Wuducynn's Avatar

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    There is a thread already made for chat about this topic - http://www.thedarktower.org/palaver/...light=Keystone

    Letti, could you merge this with that one?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    damned and saved Letti will become famous soon enough Letti's Avatar

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    Thank you for finding it, Matthew.
    Yeah, I'll merge the threads soon.

    Roland would have understood.

  17. #67
    Ash seeketh embers razz has a spectacular aura about razz has a spectacular aura about razz's Avatar

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    basically, i think that once the Tower has something up it's sleeve, all bets are off.
    Beyond the scope of light, beyond the reach of Dark. . . what could possibly await us?
    And yet, we seek it, insatiably. Such is our fate. . .

  18. #68
    Word Slinger Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent's Avatar

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    I don't think Roland went back in time. He advanced to a different level of the Tower (in an Insomnia sense). He is transported both to a new time and a new place. He's not the same person we met on page one of The Gunslinger. Roland 2.0 (or 19.0 or 119.0).

  19. #69
    West Coast sarah is on a distinguished road sarah's Avatar

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    Yes, I agree Bev. Thanks for posting that. I think Roland is always advancing forward and never backward.



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    Roont Matt will become famous soon enough Matt's Avatar

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    I totally agree with that too. Was never real fond of the "reset time" idea.
    The kindness of close friends is like a warm blanket

  21. #71
    Word Slinger Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent has much to be proud of Bev Vincent's Avatar

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    People talk about a "loop," but I prefer to describe it as an upward spiral, like a helix.

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    aka lindakins alinda is a glorious beacon of light alinda is a glorious beacon of light alinda is a glorious beacon of light alinda is a glorious beacon of light alinda is a glorious beacon of light alinda's Avatar

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    That said, please remember to set your clocks back Sat. Nov 1 before you go to bed
    Thank you ......

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    I love you Linda...

  24. #74
    She gave me a pen. Ves'Ka Gan is on a distinguished road Ves'Ka Gan's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bev Vincent View Post
    People talk about a "loop," but I prefer to describe it as an upward spiral, like a helix.
    Maybe I have thought of it this way but not in these words--but Bev--for a second there--you blew my mind!

    [ epiphany ]OF COURSE ITS A SPIRAL & NOT A LOOP! Duh![ /epiphany ]
    YOU MUST CHILL. I HAVE HIDDEN YOUR KEYS.

  25. #75
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    ::coughs::

    just for the sake of equity... in a conversation with Matt and AllHail, this here bear introduced the concept of spiral as long ago as in August of 2008 (in this thread, from post #22 down; also at .net long before that); the notion being so thoroughly Hegelian it could hardly have escaped someone's notice sooner or later.

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    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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