So the Horn... hey, let's stop for a sec

[ATG]

Seems like there should be a spoiler tag.

[Jean]

no, there doesn't have to. It's in a spoiler forum.

[Wuducynn]

she is referring to our posts on page 1

Okay, then Liz, just a suggestion, you could use the quote button to reply to something, instead of just replying to an old post that isn't even on the page.

On the topic, I'm with the idea that Gan is changing Roland's history bit by bit, with each loop.

[boq]

Here's a thought.
What if the point in time where the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed, i.e. when Roland pops through the door at the top of the Tower (this time), is when Roland being in posession of the Horn of Eld makes a (vital?) difference for the first time. Perhaps this time he did pick it up at Jericho Hill, but it didn't make a blind piece of difference to the loop until this point (other than being an extra piece of Roland's gunna).
In a way it is a gift from Gan. He's being given the chance to advance without having to go through an identical trip between Jericho Hill and the desert.

[wildfire1290]

Here's a thought.
What if the point in time where the man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed, i.e. when Roland pops through the door at the top of the Tower (this time), is when Roland being in posession of the Horn of Eld makes a (vital?) difference for the first time. Perhaps this time he did pick it up at Jericho Hill, but it didn't make a blind piece of difference to the loop until this point (other than being an extra piece of Roland's gunna).
In a way it is a gift from Gan. He's being given the chance to advance without having to go through an identical trip between Jericho Hill and the desert.

Kinda lost me there. Sorry. Mind explaining it in stupid for me?

[Brainslinger]

This is an excellent theory! I believe this makes perfect sense, and fits in well with all the dualities within the story.
Good thinking, Brainslinger!

Thanks.

[Brainslinger]

Oh, for the poll I chose "He himself picked it up.", although as I've said earlier, I see that as a change in his past hence doesn't contradict Roland being sent back to the Mohain desert segment of the Gunslinger.

[Letti]

We have one "I have no idea".

[ManOfWesternesse]

I can only vote that he picked it up himself.
That it does not change the loop up to that point (the desert) is fairly irrelevant to the story I think.
The potential that it might change things thereafter is what is important (though it's only a small indicator if potential change I think - I don't attach massive importance to Roland picking it up - I just take it as good proof that the loops do differ).

[wildfire1290]

I can only vote that he picked it up himself.
That it does not change the loop up to that point (the desert) is fairly irrelevant to the story I think.
The potential that it might change things thereafter is what is important (though it's only a small indicator if potential change I think - I don't attach massive importance to Roland picking it up - I just take it as good proof that the loops do differ).

What kind of change were you thinking of?

[Merlin1958]

ah, but even Jericho Hill is not the point! Roland behaving irrationally for the sake of something other than expedience, however, is. Let it be a different situation, but let him act there; Jericho Hill of the previous loop would then itself be just a hint, a pointer, a metaphor of what might happen on the next turn of the spiral, even if it doesn't happen on Jericho Hill per se.

I'm just spit-balling here but to me the actual events of Jericho Hill don't really count as part of the loop. Reason being that those events occur PRIOR to the loop beginning and therefore cannot be altered by Roland making a different choice. So, Roland somehow being "blessed" (?) with the horn for his 20th loop is significant in that it rewards him for personal character growth (to his soul? if you prefer) achieved on the 19th loop which is offered to us as the DT story.

Also, I just recently finished re-reading the revised gunslinger which at the end pretty much (at least IMHO) sums up the number of loops question as it finishes with Roland dream, after the meeting with TMIB, of him blowing the horn and entering the tower at the end of his quest.


Just another Tower-junkies 2 cents lol

[razz]

sorry, I won't sound very coherent now,- tired after a working day - will just sketch it roughly. Any story is, for me, the story of a human soul, or else it doesn't have any meaning; Roland's redemption is important, the subordination of the worlds is not; Roland not picking that damned horn at Jericho Hill was for me the key to his nature; Roland picking the horn means he has changed radically. The horn is of no importance; Roland is all-important. The horn falling from the sky is a computer-game bonus, go on to the next level, you have two more lives left. The horn picked by Roland at the moment when it was a silly, irrational thing to do is a whole different thing. A Roland who picks the horn may not drop the boy. Hell, he might find a passable solution in Tull. A Roland who receives the horn from a Higher Force is a pawn.

well we already know he regretts not picking up the horn origionally, but perhaps it was given to him by gan when he returned to the desert like it's some respawn point, and Gan makes him think he picked the horn up, thereby changing his memory, but not his nature. it wouldn't be too dramatic of a change from the old memory, a horn can kind of sit in the background of his stuffs.

[razz]

but also... think chaos theory and butterfly effect. butterfly flaps it's wings in Miami, creates a tornado in pittsburg. therefore, if roland had obtained the horn from jericho, the added wait and other influences the horn may have caused would affect his entire journey, possibly delaying his encounter with Walter, or even passing by Jake.

[ManOfWesternesse]

I can only vote that he picked it up himself.
That it does not change the loop up to that point (the desert) is fairly irrelevant to the story I think.
The potential that it might change things thereafter is what is important (though it's only a small indicator if potential change I think - I don't attach massive importance to Roland picking it up - I just take it as good proof that the loops do differ).

What kind of change were you thinking of?

Sorry, hadn't seen your post till now.
I just meant that the fact that the 'change' (ie. the fact he now has the horn) happened BEFORE the loop, but I don't think that's overly significant in that Roland will now BELIEVE he always had the Horn.
I think I've seen other postulate before that this change is difficult because it changes Roland's history before the loop significantly.

[obscurejude]

That's another of the reasons that I voted it was a gift from Gan.

[wildfire1290]

ah, but even Jericho Hill is not the point! Roland behaving irrationally for the sake of something other than expedience, however, is. Let it be a different situation, but let him act there; Jericho Hill of the previous loop would then itself be just a hint, a pointer, a metaphor of what might happen on the next turn of the spiral, even if it doesn't happen on Jericho Hill per se.

I'm just spit-balling here but to me the actual events of Jericho Hill don't really count as part of the loop. Reason being that those events occur PRIOR to the loop beginning and therefore cannot be altered by Roland making a different choice. So, Roland somehow being "blessed" (?) with the horn for his 20th loop is significant in that it rewards him for personal character growth (to his soul? if you prefer) achieved on the 19th loop which is offered to us as the DT story.

Also, I just recently finished re-reading the revised gunslinger which at the end pretty much (at least IMHO) sums up the number of loops question as it finishes with Roland dream, after the meeting with TMIB, of him blowing the horn and entering the tower at the end of his quest.


Just another Tower-junkies 2 cents lol

Well going with what you said, and me having just recently re-read Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came, at the end of the poem it talks about him blowing the horn:

There they stood, ranged along the hillsides, met
To view the last of me, a living frame
For one more picture! in a sheet of flame
I saw them and I knew them all. And yet
Dauntless the slug-horn to my lips I set,
And blew. "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower came."

I believe that this is kind of referring to the horn that he obtained by the time he reached the desert. Either that or the slug horn was his name for his gun and he shouted out that phrase. Anywho, what you said your piece about the end of the revised gunslinger this just kinda popped into my head. Not sure if this really helps the topic, but just felt like it was a nice distraction and maybe someone remembers another verse in the poem to answer the pressing question at hand.

[Charles Amey]

Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

[Matt]

It makes sense that "the power that is" would reward Roland with the horn on this next loop.

[Letti]

Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

So the Dark Tower is just the Wheel of Fortune of Gan?

[John Blaze]

is that kind of like a wheel of fortune?

[Brice]

is that kind of like a wheel of fortune?

and a wheel of misfortune at the same time?

[Brainslinger]

The Tower is the hub of the Wheel of Time. That which spawns Roland and Lews Therin Tellamon as ages past into legend into myth and... oh wait. That's another series of books altogether isn't it?

[Merlin1958]

Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

Yeah....Hot and sloppy the Johnny Gan way!!!! Right Pongo? LOL LOL

[wildfire1290]

Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

So the Dark Tower is just the Wheel of Fortune of Gan?

Why do you say that? I guess i'm not following your logic on that one.

[Letti]

Dear Tower-aniacs,

not a gift from Gan - a reward!

So the Dark Tower is just the Wheel of Fortune of Gan?

Why do you say that? I guess i'm not following your logic on that one.

I wrote it because you used the word "reward". If you do this or that right you get a reward (like in a quiz show).. does it make some sense now?