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Thread: The Kas-ka Gan's Trance *spoilers*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unfound One View Post

    "I'm Gan, or possessed by Gan, I don't know which, maybe there's no difference." King began to cry. His tears were silent and horrible. "But it's not Dis, I turned aside from Dis, I repudiate Dis, and that should be enough but it's not, ka it never satisfied, greedy old ka, that's what she said, isn't it? What Susan Delgado said before you killed her, or I killed her, or Gan killed her. 'Greedy old ka, how I hate it.' Regardless of who killed her, I made her say that, I, for I hate it, so I do. I buck against ka's goad, and will until the day I go into the clearing at the end of the path."
    Roland sat at the table, white at the sound of Susan's name.
    "And still ka comes to me, comes from me, I translate it, am made to translate it, ka flows out of my navel like a ribbon. I am not ka, I am not the ribbon, it's just what comes through me and I hate it I hate it!"

    So.
    Sai King is a servant to ka like everybody else is. Interesting.
    He hates it, and even adds his opinion to the story coming through him, such as putting his opinion in the words of Susan Delgado.
    He says later on the page that he doesn't want to be Gan, and since he was able to turn away from Dis he should be able to turn from Gan as well.

    I feel like some of the stuff from the Keystone thread needs to be brought in here. Damn. And I'm not even sure where I'm going with this.

    Somebody take the fuckin' feather.
    Awesome quote!
    Its a very interesting part of the trance because he seems to be saying that ka is Gan's song.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    This is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    This is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time.

    Thanks. Why don't you give us some feedback on what you think?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Well my feedback is this. If we are to follow the book in how I think it was intended, Ka is a wheel. And all is because of Ka. Ka is an instrument of Gan, so Stephen King and everyone else is an instrument of Ka and of Gan. So basically Stephen King is doing Gan's work by writing this story. And Gan must be the ruler of ka... Whether Gan really exists or not is rather irrelevant because the greater force is that of Ka.

    Both the powers of Anti-Ka and Ka are a form of Yin and Yang and have to work together in a sort of harmony in order to make the world work correctly. From my understanding, Anti-Ka has grown too strong and is tearing down the beams to all worlds so Stephen King is brought into the picture to sort of level the playing field, but Stephen King doesn't even really realize he's doing this until he is put into a trance. He thinks he is just an author making a quick buck. he doesn't realize that everything he does, makes a difference.

    Like Bastian in The Neverending Story.

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    His subconscious understands his role, but his consciousness is not fully aware.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    So basically Stephen King is doing Gan's work by writing this story.
    This definitely appears to be true from his trance.

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    And Gan must be the ruler of ka... Whether Gan really exists or not is rather irrelevant because the greater force is that of Ka.
    Gan must be the ruler of ka yet ka is a greater force? This confuses me, could you explain where you're coming from and how what happens in his trance shows it?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Most people believe in God. Well just because someone believes in it does not mean it's true. I believe in God but that's not part of the argument. What my argument is just because someone believes in Gan, doesn't mean he exists or maybe that he exists anymore. Maybe Gan has passed on to the clearing or is on vacation or something, and yet the wheels he has set into motion, this machine of life, is still active.

    Point being that Ka is still powerful, and is now it's own force to be reckoned with, and perhaps has no intervention from Gan.

    On the other hand Gan could very conceivably just be a foreign or different machinery or person who made such machinery that was invented to maintain the alternate universes' structural integrity. It may have held for a while, and such devices as the wizard's glass were left behind to inspire others to follow the quest in order to continue to maintain the beams.

    Perhaps even there was a "tear" accidentally created in a place in space or time that made it so it was easier for these doors to be created. Overuse of doors to other places caused even more damage to the space-time continuum's fabric until all worlds were in danger of collapsing into each other or simply ceasing to be.

    The Wizard's glass could be a promise left behind by Gan or the Old Ones - or whoever you want to call responsible for all the machinery - to ensure that someone would always be trying to fix this problem.

    We see evidence of Ka, but not neccessarily anything that I see as what could be the will and/or work of Gan until the very end of 7...

    But these are just some ideas... I will work on explaining more later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    Most people believe in God. Well just because someone believes in it does not mean it's true. I believe in God but that's not part of the argument. What my argument is just because someone believes in Gan, doesn't mean he exists or maybe that he exists anymore. Maybe Gan has passed on to the clearing or is on vacation or something, and yet the wheels he has set into motion, this machine of life, is still active.
    Well there is plenty of evidence to show that Gan IS the multi-verse itself, so if it had passed into the clearing, then that meant the Crimson King had won.

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    Point being that Ka is still powerful, and is now it's own force to be reckoned with, and perhaps has no intervention from Gan.
    Okay I'm wanting to keep this chat in the context of King's trance, where are you getting that there is no intervention from Gan, from his trance?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    We see evidence of Ka, but not neccessarily anything that I see as what could be the will and/or work of Gan until the very end of 7...
    You don't see the things that King says when he's mesmerized by Roland as evidence of Gan's will at work?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    But these are just some ideas... I will work on explaining more later.
    Looking forward to it.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Well I think I said more to make more questions than I made more answers...

    *I* think that Gan was the instrument of Stephen King's visions but I can see the other side that perhaps there is enough evidence that Gan doesn't exist and therefore we have to look for another reasoning for why the trance occurred...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LadyHitchhiker View Post
    *I* think that Gan was the instrument of Stephen King's visions but I can see the other side that perhaps there is enough evidence that Gan doesn't exist and therefore we have to look for another reasoning for why the trance occurred...

    I'm not sure where you're coming up with this "Gan doesn't exist" as part of King's trance? What I'm wondering is why you feel Gan was an instrument of King and not the other way around?
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    I think for the sake of this chat, we need to start from the understanding that within the Dark Tower Series (and I'm including the graphic novels) there is a being called Gan and from all evidence it is the multi-verse itself as a living entity.
    So lets just go from there. Tell me why you feel that Gan was the instrument in the trance and not King? Its an interesting perspective because, from what King says while in the trance, that he is the "kas-ka Gan" meaning "Singer or Prophet of Gan". It doesn't sound like Gan is the one being the instrument there.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Mathew, I think the point might be that they're not mutually exclusive. King is a prophet only to the extent that he sings Gan's song. Of course, by the same logic, it means that King is Gan. Sort of when the pope is officially ex cathedra, only at that point are his words liturgical law. The bible also espouses an open plenary view of inspiration regarding itself, "All scripture is inspired by God..." (2 Timothy 3:16). Inspired is from the Greek word theopneusatos (theos- God, pneuma- spirit/wind) The idea is that scripture is the breath of God and relevant to our discussion, there remains a degree of human agency. This is how I think of King within the novel.

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    I think I completely agree with the post above.

    Ask not what bears can do for you, but what you can do for bears. (razz)
    When one is in agreement with bears one is always correct. (mae)

    bears are back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    You made my week Jean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    Mathew, I think the point might be that they're not mutually exclusive. King is a prophet only to the extent that he sings Gan's song. Of course, by the same logic, it means that King is Gan. Sort of when the pope is officially ex cathedra, only at that point are his words liturgical law. The bible also espouses an open plenary view of inspiration regarding itself, "All scripture is inspired by God..." (2 Timothy 3:16). Inspired is from the Greek word theopneusatos (theos- God, pneuma- spirit/wind) The idea is that scripture is the breath of God and relevant to our discussion, there remains a degree of human agency. This is how I think of King within the novel.
    I see what you're saying, while I think the evidence points to that King is not one and the same as Gan, but someone that Gan works through. What I'm wondering is where is the evidence that Gan is being the instrument of King, within the trance that Liz mentioned above.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    That's what I was saying, King is Gan only to the extent that he is prophet. Prophets are also described as bondservants (doulos in Greek). A bondservant is one whose will ceases to become distinct from his master's. We keep asking the question: "Why does Gan need a Ves Ka?" What if the answer has to do with why God used prophets in the Bible. King is an instrument in the ultimate sense- an extension of Gan, a way for Gan to exist bodily within the multiverse.

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    I think what Liz might be dealing with is the notion that God might be dead, think of the vision of Maturin in IT. No one wants to talk about why Roland might be afraid that Gan is dead, but I think King might be evidence that Gan is alive and kicking and even providential- active in sustaining the world in which he created.

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    That's what I was saying, King is Gan only to the extent that he is prophet. Prophets are also described as bondservants (doulos in Greek). A bondservant is one whose will ceases to become distinct from his master's. We keep asking the question: "Why does Gan need a Ves Ka?" What if the answer has to do with why God used prophets in the Bible. King is an instrument in the ultimate sense- an extension of Gan, a way for Gan to exist bodily within the multiverse.

    I really like this OJ. You're really onto something here. Good call.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    I think what Liz might be dealing with is the notion that God might be dead, think of the vision of Maturin in IT. No one wants to talk about why Roland might be afraid that Gan is dead, but I think King might be evidence that Gan is alive and kicking and even providential- active in sustaining the world in which he created.
    King and The Rose, definitely. One thing I love about the trance scene is how it opens up a lot of possibilities and yet brings up more questions. We see how the Ram Abbalah has worked since King was a kid and I assume chosen (or born) by Gan for his role as a kas-ka, to try and either kill him or turn him into a vampire and become his kas-ka. There's just so much going on in that scene that I've gone back and read it a bunch of times.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Quote Originally Posted by All_Hail_The_Crimson_King View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    That's what I was saying, King is Gan only to the extent that he is prophet. Prophets are also described as bondservants (doulos in Greek). A bondservant is one whose will ceases to become distinct from his master's. We keep asking the question: "Why does Gan need a Ves Ka?" What if the answer has to do with why God used prophets in the Bible. King is an instrument in the ultimate sense- an extension of Gan, a way for Gan to exist bodily within the multiverse.

    I really like this OJ. You're really onto something here. Good call.
    Thanks, a compliment from you is a rare occasion and goes a long way.

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    King being an extension of Gan suggests he is part of Gan, and therefore Gan... which I don't think is true. Unless of course you simply mean he is the mouthpiece of Gan which I agree with, as that's essentially what a kas-ka or prophet is.

    As for the notion that Gan is dead, well... I won't spoil it here... but read through to the end of Dark Tower 7 and you should get the answer to that yes or no. (Or maybe I should say "yay or nay" as we speaketh of spiritual things.)

    Corny mode off.

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    Well, I would think its possible to be connected with Gan and a part of it in some way, yet not wholely Gan. If you catch my drift.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Banned obscurejude is on a distinguished road

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    Thanks Brainslinger, it really would help if I'd read all the books. Thank you for the suggestion.

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    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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    Quote Originally Posted by obscurejude View Post
    it really would help if I'd read all the books.
    "It's his eyes, Roland thought. They were wide and terrible, the eyes of a dragon in human form" - Roland seeing the Crimson King for the first time.

    "When the King comes and the Tower falls, sai, all such pretty things as yours will be broken. Then there will be darkness and nothing but the howl of Discordia and the cries of the can toi" - From Song of Susannah

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