That is what ive been told. alot
That is what ive been told. alot
I thought "Crimson King" was kind of like Satan since he's a red king of sorts, but I don't know.
I think Insomnia gives a much better view on what he was like before he hit rock bottom in DT 7. He was actually scary in that book, in DT he comes off as insane, but kind of pathetic too.
Last edited by Jaztastic; 03-07-2009 at 03:05 PM. Reason: spelling
i agree, just re- reading insomnia now and he is a much scarier version. but i also think he was supposed to be insane and anti climatic - as he had quite lost his marbles by this pointOriginally Posted by Jaztastic
Oh, I lllove this expression!
Roland would have understood.
Glad I found this thread. Something that never satisfied me was WHY is the Crimson King insane? Born that way?
Failed gunslinger seems to point in the right direction, but isn't enough for me!
I also like the idea of him being a past Tower-quester who had to do it over and over like Roland - but wasn't CK hanging around being crazy in his castle long before he got stuck in the Tower?
Yes, and I think he's crazy from WAAAAAAYYYY back. It may just be that not being able to get what he wants has driven him crazy (presuming he is). I don't feel he was ever a gunslinger or questing the tower (at least not in the sense Roland is). I think his quest was to posses the tower and undo creation. I think that's what his tower was. The thing about insanity though is there is a why, but often not one which makes sense to a normal person.
In matters of the Tower, there is no such thing as "before."
Think about that... and you might just end up as crazy as Tweedledee and I.
Every time I think I'm getting somewhere, it gets a little more convoluted instead.In matters of the Tower, there is no such thing as "before."
Yeah, there goes the linear thinking again. Nothing's really linear, as in a single timeline from beginning to end. It's a perception thing - we have to put events in sequence for them to make sense. (At least in terms of this sequence of events.)
Still, there's a sense of...space?...between certain events at least. Something happened between the Crimson King coming into being, and him getting stuck at the Tower. What was it? Was he born wanting to "undo creation" as Brice put it?
There is a necessity for chaos and random to exist, in order for order and purpose to exist in contrast - and maybe that necessity is what lies buried under the CK's drive to possess the tower, and restore chaos to the universe. It wouldn't be a conscious thing at all.
I agree with Brice. To understand an insane mind with a sane one is quite impossible. I don't think he used to be a Gunslinger. He was someone who couldn't accept his faith that's sure.
Roland would have understood.
Maybe not the right topic for it but here goes;
Didn't you guys think the Crimson King was a bit of an anti-climax.. Like during the whole series he is portrayed as the ultimate evil. and when we finally get to "see" him he is portrayed as an old insane/maniacal villain that has lost touch with reality..
I was kind of expecting more I guess...
I do believe the Crimson King is largely conscious of the situation. After all, his "kingdom" is transdimensional in nature."In order for order," you say.That way lies madness. If chaos exists for an orderly purpose, then order is supreme and chaos cannot be distinguished from it, but if order and chaos are inseparable, well, that's just chaos.
What proof is there that there is any necessity for us to perceive through contrast the existence of each of these concepts, other than the fact that it does indeed happen?I think that that sense is mostly just made up.Ka.
It would make just as much sense to say that it happened before he came into being, although I don't think that that is strictly true, either.
However, IMHO, the best answer is simply ka.
Aye, and being able to see his chance come, over and over, with no apparent reason for him to always fail.
Say, that reminds me. Where is Wuducynn?
Well, please send our regards.
its like the cabalic numerical system, kindof
"if man is 5 and the devil is 6 then god is 7"
that particular quote is from the pixies but it fits the idea of the crimson king being one level beneath god/gan himself
If the crimson king has to jump from body to body (I reject the comics explanation of the CK beingSpoiler:) is it possible that the replacement body bieng planned for him was patrick danville? he has some incredible powers after all...
maybe he doesnt need to jump from body to body to stay alive rather, he goes insane if he doesnt and ralph and company stopping him from getting patrick danville was what drove his current state nuts?
I wish sai king would write a middle volume to patrick's story in between insomnia and dt7...
Sidenote- the CK jumping from body to body is very similar to what X-men villan Apocalypse doesif the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do
I know it will sound silly but that's why I love the CK. Because he isn't this typical oh so powerful and oh so perfectly evil character who has a very evil laugh and can kill you with his look.
He must have had some nice days when he was not absolutely insane yet and he had worlds in his hands.. but yeah.. his Sun went down.
Roland would have understood.
thats something that I love about the last book, neither good nor evil is as strong as the reader is led to believe, eddie got gunned down like a dog in the street by pimli prentis, jake got ran over saving sai king, flagg got punked by mordred who got owned by roland after killing the comedy relief talking animal sidekick Oy, patrick danville humiliated the "all powerful" CK and rode off into the sunset still scarred and sans tongue, susana settled for the consolation prizes of fake eddie and jake, and roland just keeps going round the cosmic mulberry bushI know it will sound silly but that's why I love the CK. Because he isn't this typical oh so powerful and oh so perfectly evil character who has a very evil laugh and can kill you with his look.
He must have had some nice days when he was not absolutely insane yet and he had worlds in his hands.. but yeah.. his Sun went down.
Its like a cosmic resevoir dogs!
if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do
I see your point but I do think Eddie, Jake and Oy are very very strong and I have never changed my mind about that. Moreover they grew stronger with every word till the end of the series.thats something that I love about the last book, neither good nor evil is as strong as the reader is led to believe, eddie got gunned down like a dog in the street by pimli prentis, jake got ran over saving sai king, flagg got punked by mordred who got owned by roland after killing the comedy relief talking animal sidekick Oy, patrick danville humiliated the "all powerful" CK and rode off into the sunset still scarred and sans tongue, susana settled for the consolation prizes of fake eddie and jake, and roland just keeps going round the cosmic mulberry bushI know it will sound silly but that's why I love the CK. Because he isn't this typical oh so powerful and oh so perfectly evil character who has a very evil laugh and can kill you with his look.
He must have had some nice days when he was not absolutely insane yet and he had worlds in his hands.. but yeah.. his Sun went down.
Its like a cosmic resevoir dogs!
But still they are fragile. Every working heart is fragile. Anyway the way they died... it made them look even stronger. They could die like real gunslingers.. strong and respectful. With true words on their lips and with peace in their soul.
CK's case is very different for me. We had to face the fact that he wasn't that perfect villain we imagined him to be.
Roland would have understood.
He never did that.
I think that if he needs a new body, he can always go back to Los in another timeline.Insomnia
Which Crimson King do you like best? Poll
maybe patrick dying by plane crash would have transfered him to a world closer to the CK the way jake switched from new york to the desert?
if the worlds gonna end then let's get it over with, i got shit to do
I'm assuming that there is some need to make that distinction in the first place. Maybe when one is dealing with the outcome of their actions, or making a decision that involves choosing one path over the other. I don't have proof for it being necessary. I think I'm just saying: there's no absolute rule for everyone that dictates what is random/chaotic and what is following a pattern. I'm thinking of chaos and order as always being relative to the person perceiving them, and so there always needs to be some point of reference/contrast, so that we can determine "this is chaos" and "this is order."What proof is there that there is any necessity for us to perceive through contrast the existence of each of these concepts, other than the fact that it does indeed happen?
I'll accept that a 'space' between events might not exist.I think that that sense is mostly just made up.
...
Ka?
I don't know what to think about ka at the moment. Ever since I got into some conversations a few months back about whether the self exists, I feel really wary about free will too. Thinking about Ka and what it means seems inseparable from the Free Will discussion. Honestly, I oscillate between wanting to sit and think about these things until I feel crazy; and wanting to rely on whatever vague concepts I've lived with so far, leave the discussing to the dedicated philosophers, and sleep instead!
Hopefully someday I'll feel a little clearer on what I'm trying to say. In general.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecLNrFmCmc0"]The Way That I Roll[/ame]All I'm saying, myself, is just that if there is no absolute rule for everyone that dictates what is random/chaotic and what is following a pattern, then that in itself implies much chaotic randomness. If chaos and order are always relative to the person perceiving them, (assuming that that person exists, lol) then we only need a point of reference when we wish to determine what is chaos and what is order.
The Red King
So I am wondering about The Crimson King. Was he always bad, or did he protect the tower? I know he is the son of the Red Queen (Alice in Wonderland?) and King Arthur... did Tak drive him insane or did he know about the repetition of the Tower?
Thoughts to ponder.
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